Asajj Ventress Vs. Darth Malgus

[fdbgjfdhjgkjdhsg]

Who would win in a duel, Malgus or Asajj Ventress?

[Selenial]

Malgus, not even close.

[Silenceo]

Seems like an execution to me. Literally only a few blows exchanged and Ventress likely would be either defeated or "disarmed".

 

Ventress is great against jedi...due to jedi not going full force all the time, as well as they try their best to not always kill their enemies. Sith? Forget about it, Ventress isn't even a true sith and while a good saber user, is not proficient enough in the force other than force choke.

[Bird_of_Thunder]

Malgus would rip Ventress apart. Wouldn't even be close to fair.

[Xakthul]

Seems like an execution to me. Literally only a few blows exchanged and Ventress likely would be a grease spot

 

Fixed that for you.

[fdbgjfdhjgkjdhsg]

Yes but Ventress is extremely agile. I think she would be able to dodge a few of his attacks.

[RayceUlrand]

It's been a long time since I read 'Deceived' but based on what we seen from Malgus in the trailers, he can endure far more than Ventress can physically. Asajj is faster, but once she's caught she's more than likely done for. I think the location is also dependent, since Asajj plays mind games better than Malgus and would probably try to draw a battle out and wear him down from afar if she had plenty of locations to remain hidden in.

 

In a straight fight, Malgus wins more often than not. Too durable, too strong in the dark side.

[Aurbere]

Asajj Ventress is better than most give her credit for, but I agree that Malgus would be the most likely victor.

[RixoFutu]

Malgus would rip her in two pieces in a minute. He is true a battlemaster, powerful and angry beast when in battle. No chance for Ventress.

[Stinghen]

It's a close call. They are both master lightsaber combatants, though I suspect Ventress' form is far superior to Malgus', who displays a propensity for over-arcing attacks and repetitive sequences to try and beat down his enemy. In his fight against Ven Zallow Malgus was kept on his back foot most of the time (never read the novel, that's the way it seems to me from watching the duel on the video and Jensaarai's breakdown), showing he had trouble in facing a skilled duelist, and during the Sacking of Coruscant Malgus was in his prime, if not only close to it.

 

I think Ventress could perform at least as well as Zallow did, probably much better. And though Malgus was hardy and durable, he wasn't capable of weathering a lightsaber through the arm, even with his thick armour.

 

That said, Darth Malgus was recognised as a true Juggernaut, even by a Sith Lord as Palpatine (who looked down on beastly Sith Warriors like Maul and Malgus). In The Book of Sith, Palpatine describes Malgus' battlefield achievements as going unmatched in history, and goes on to say Malgus was quite capable of fueling his anger in combat to devastating effect. Malgus indeed displayed that, especially in his fight against Kao-cen Darach on Korriban, where he came on top despite having inferior form, and having been *****-slapped by Darach before the Jedi Master poked Vindican in the gut with the glow-stick.

 

Also, given the fact Malgus was twice the size of Ventress, he would most likely be able to wear her down very easily, on the condition that Ventress was forced to face his lightsaber sequences and was unable to get the higher ground or retreat. If that was the case, he would clearly destroy Ventress, no contest. But if Ventress could work her guile, she would definetly get the better of a brute like Malgus.

Edited November 18, 2013 by Stinghen

[Darkelefantos]

*snip*

 

You display Malgus as far more brutish than he actually comes of. He wiped the floor with Satele Shan in Lightsaber combat, despite the fact that she was far more agile. You also assume that his form is worse than her's, and I don't see a real base for that. Even more so since they use entirely different styles, so a clean comparison is not possible.

 

You also completely ignore the fact that the OP did not restrict this fight to lightsaber combat at all, and Malgus is far superior in terms of Force powers displayed.

[Stinghen]

You display Malgus as far more brutish than he actually comes of. He wiped the floor with Satele Shan in Lightsaber combat, despite the fact that she was far more agile. You also assume that his form is worse than her's, and I don't see a real base for that. Even more so since they use entirely different styles, so a clean comparison is not possible.

 

You also completely ignore the fact that the OP did not restrict this fight to lightsaber combat at all, and Malgus is far superior in terms of Force powers displayed.

 

Wrong. I did not compare Malgus to Satele in any moment. I spoke of his fight against Ven Zallow in the Sacking of Coruscant, and also to his fight against Kao-cen Darach on the Battle of Korriban. The reason I did not compare him to Satele is because I cannot place Satele's lightsaber skills anywhere in a ranked tier, simply because I don't know anything about it. However, when you compare Malgus' skills with Kao-cen's and Zallow's, it's evident his style is more brutish, relying on head-splitting attacks in repetive sequences to wear down his opponents before he can cut them down. I remind you that that tactic did not work against Ven Zallow,

and the Jedi Master lost because he underestimated Malgus' reaction speed. Again, I have not read the novel so I don't know how that particular fight is depicted, what I gathered was mostly from watching the three videos. On the first, his anger empowered him to defeat Darach, on the third, he exploited Zallow's miscalculation and came on top.

 

I did not consider the extant use of the Force, but even there Malgus didn't have so much going for him - he mostly relied on Force pushes, jumps and saber throws, which are pretty simple Force techniques that Ventress also possesses, so that wouldn't necessarily count as an edge in either's favour in my opinion. Malgus did show skill with Force lightning, and as far as I know Ventress did not, but Force lightning is not the most useful power to wield against one (or two) lightsabres, so much so that the only one who made succesful use of it in the middle of a lightsabre duel was the all-time master of Force Lightning, Darth Sidious. And there's no comparing Malgus to Sidious, I'm sure we both agree there.

[Wolfninjajedi]

He can also use Force Maelstrom Sting, course IIRC he has only used it once and it was against an unprepared enemy. But he can use that against her too.

[Darkelefantos]

Wrong. I did not compare Malgus to Satele in any moment.

 

Did I say you did? Nope. At no point did I say such a ludicrous thing.

 

I did not consider the extant use of the Force, but even there Malgus didn't have so much going for him - he mostly relied on Force pushes, jumps and saber throws, which are pretty simple Force techniques that Ventress also possesses, so that wouldn't necessarily count as an edge in either's favour in my opinion. Malgus did show skill with Force lightning, and as far as I know Ventress did not, but Force lightning is not the most useful power to wield against one (or two) lightsabres, so much so that the only one who made succesful use of it in the middle of a lightsabre duel was the all-time master of Force Lightning, Darth Sidious. And there's no comparing Malgus to Sidious, I'm sure we both agree there.

 

The extent of Malgus' Force abilities is far greater than anything Ventress has ever shown in that regard. And you are correct, Ventress has no skill in Force Lightning. And I don't recall her ever successfully defending against a barrage of Dooku's Lightning. To top that off, he has shown the aforementioned Force Maelstrom, which is extremely devastating.

 

But since you seem to enjoy thinking of Malgus as a brute, he *did* kill his greatest rival with his own bare hands.

[Stinghen]

You also assume that his form is worse than her's, and I don't see a real base for that.

 

That's you stating I concluded Malgus' form was less refined than Satele's, when I was in truth comparing his form to Ventress', Zallow's and Darach's.

 

And while Malgus was stated (in quite a generic fashion, by the way) to be able to perform the Maelstrom, but he is not seen doing it. As I stated more than once, I'm am taking the Malgus from the three videos to compare, and there he only employs Force pushes/throws/leaps and nothing more. Malgus as he was during the Sacking of Coruscant would have a hard time beating Ventress, just like defeating Shan (which wasn't actually a victory for Malgus) wasn't exactly the walk in the park you make it sound it was. Maybe the Ilum Malgus is another beast entirely, in fact probably (which means I take back the statement that SoC Malgus was close to his appice of power), but since I don't know the Ilum Malgus (yet), I won't judge that. But a more humane-level Malgus as he is depicted in Deceived, definetly on par with Ventress.

Edited November 18, 2013 by Stinghen

[Darkelefantos]

That's you stating I concluded Malgus' form was less refined than Satele's, when I was in truth comparing his form to Ventress', Zallow's and Darach's.

 

And while Malgus was stated (in quite a generic fashion, by the way) to be able to perform the Maelstrom, but he is not seen doing it. As I stated more than once, I'm am taking the Malgus from the three videos to compare, and there he only employs Force pushes/throws/leaps and nothing more. Malgus as he was during the Sacking of Coruscant would have a hard time beating Ventress, just like defeating Shan (which wasn't actually a victory for Malgus) wasn't exactly the walk in the park you make it sound it was. Maybe the Ilum Malgus is another beast entirely, in fact probably (which means I take back the statement that SoC Malgus was close to his appice of power), but since I don't know the Ilum Malgus (yet), I won't judge that. But a more humane-level Malgus as he is depicted in Deceived, definetly on par with Ventress.

 

The "her's" was referring to Asajj Ventress, not Satele, I'm sorry if it wasn't obvious. But it should have been obvious from my response that making it sound like that hadn't been my intention. You should trust me to know what I wanted to say.

 

I also didn't say that Malgus defeated Satele entirely, I said that he wiped the floor with her in lightsaber combat, which is exactly what happened. She had no chance whatsoever in that regard.

 

In regards to you judging him on the trailers alone, well he arguably wasn't in his prime in any of those, but I guess it's fair to argue based on what you know. Although Malgus *does* use Force Lightning in "Hope", which you didn't include in your list of powers used. A barrage of Lightning to an unprepared opponent may very well be devastating. That said, he is much stronger on Ilum.

[Wolfninjajedi]

That's you stating I concluded Malgus' form was less refined than Satele's, when I was in truth comparing his form to Ventress', Zallow's and Darach's.

 

And while Malgus was stated (in quite a generic fashion, by the way) to be able to perform the Maelstrom, but he is not seen doing it. As I stated more than once, I'm am taking the Malgus from the three videos to compare, and there he only employs Force pushes/throws/leaps and nothing more. Malgus as he was during the Sacking of Coruscant would have a hard time beating Ventress, just like defeating Shan (which wasn't actually a victory for Malgus) wasn't exactly the walk in the park you make it sound it was. Maybe the Ilum Malgus is another beast entirely, in fact probably (which means I take back the statement that SoC Malgus was close to his appice of power), but since I don't know the Ilum Malgus (yet), I won't judge that. But a more humane-level Malgus as he is depicted in Deceived, definetly on par with Ventress.

 

Here

 

Though again it was against an unprepared enemy so it says....but there you have it at least.

[Stinghen]

The "her's" was referring to Asajj Ventress, not Satele, I'm sorry if it wasn't obvious. But it should have been obvious from my response that making it sound like that hadn't been my intention. You should trust me to know what I wanted to say.

 

That was impossible for me to assume and not obvious at all, because you should've referred to Ventress by name. The only name you reference is Satele, followed by her's, therefore her's would refer to Satele, not Ventress, in a linear sentence construction. I can't read minds, though perhaps Malgus can.

 

Although Malgus *does* use Force Lightning in "Hope", which you didn't include in your list of powers used. A barrage of Lightning to an unprepared opponent may very well be devastating. That said, he is much stronger on Ilum.

 

You never get to see against whom he uses the Lightning. It might be against a guard armed with a blaster. It might be against a Jedi from behind. And I did mention it, but he chooses not to use it when fighting the really big fights (Darach, Shan and Zallow for the three vids) suggesting his usage of Force-lightning isn't skilled enough to be advantageous in a lightsaber duel. Just a supposition though.

[Darkelefantos]

That was impossible for me to assume and not obvious at all, because you should've referred to Ventress by name. The only name you reference is Satele, followed by her's, therefore her's would refer to Satele, not Ventress, in a linear sentence construction. I can't read minds, though perhaps Malgus can.

 

I already admitted it was my mistake, but c'mon, we both know how to read in an extent that allows us to figure out that your first post didn't contain the words Satele or Shan, so it's actually irrational to assume that I thought it did. I was simply comparing their fighting styles since Satele is the one the most similar to Ventress out of the people in the trailers, also in terms of physique.

But oh well. In his final battle, by the way, Malgus has the ability to fill the player's minds with doubt. So the mind reading part isn't completely out question, is it?

 

You never get to see against whom he uses the Lightning. It might be against a guard armed with a blaster. It might be against a Jedi from behind. And I did mention it, but he chooses not to use it when fighting the really big fights (Darach, Shan and Zallow for the three vids) suggesting his usage of Force-lightning isn't skilled enough to be advantageous in a lightsaber duel. Just a supposition though.

 

I was specifically referencing "Hope" in that paragraph, in which he uses it against Jace Malcom. The target in the other trailer is not clearly seen, true. But not every fight is a simple lightsaber duel, this fight puts two users of the dark side against each other, surely they will interrupt the fighting to mock each other - if they ever get a chance. Which will leave the respective opponent open to a Force attack such as Lightning, which gives a clear edge to Malgus. Because I'm pretty sure that Ventress can not use a technique powerful enough to actually hurt Malgus, much less kill him outright. Maybe a Force push next to a bottomless pit, though.

I also just remembered that he used Force Scream in "Deceived", which could be an annoyance. At any rate, I don't Ventress taking this in a straight-up duel.

Edited November 18, 2013 by Darkelefantos

[Stinghen]

But not every fight is a simple lightsaber duel, this fight puts two users of the dark side against each other, surely they will interrupt the fighting to mock each other - if they ever get a chance.

 

Good practice a Dun Möch demands knowing when to apply that. Dooku was adept at it, and most likely would've taught Ventress well. Which means most taunting would take place during blade-locks or after Force-pushing the enemy silly.

 

Which will leave the respective opponent open to a Force attack such as Lightning, which gives a clear edge to Malgus.

 

It might give an edge if: a) Ventress doesn't actually easily block it, as many lightsaber users have shown to be possible (almost effortless, like Obi-wan displays on his confrontation against Dooku in Ep II) b) Ventress does allow for such an opening, which might not necessarily be the case if she knows she's facing a Sith Lord.

 

All in all, even if those requirements are met the viability of Force Lightning is questionable. An opening that allows for a Force Push occurs much more often, and its aftermath can be much more devastating to the opponent than an opening that might enable the use of Force Lightning, simply because the Lightning is much harder to connect. So, in any situation the more reliable, safer move would be Force push. Malgus opted for it in both Hope and Deceived, pushing Shan against a tree stump and Zallow clean through a huge and thick block of concrete.

 

Because I'm pretty sure that Ventress can not use a technique powerful enough to actually hurt Malgus, much less kill him outright.

 

Force-push him clean through a wall is gonna put a dent in his style.

 

I also just remembered that he used Force Scream in "Deceived", which could be an annoyance. At any rate, I don't Ventress taking this in a straight-up duel.

 

Force Scream is extremely powerful, but it can only be triggered by extreme anger. It's unlikely that it'd come into play, and I didn't notice it being used in Deceived. I'll have to watch it again if I can see it.

[Darkelefantos]

Force-push him clean through a wall is gonna put a dent in his style.

 

Force Scream is extremely powerful, but it can only be triggered by extreme anger. It's unlikely that it'd come into play, and I didn't notice it being used in Deceived. I'll have to watch it again if I can see it.

 

He used Force Scream after Van Zallow attacked his wife.

 

Also, if Malgus is even *moved* by the Force push at all, which is debatable, as is the existence of a wall in the area they are fighting in, it doesn't mean he's going to care. I'm pretty sure he's had worse injuries. Like being pushed into the mountain by Satele. And he walked that off.

 

On the Force Lightning part, while true, I'm not sure if Ventress actually knows how to block it. The times Dooku used it against her it always took full effect. At least the ones I remember, anyway.

I am also doubtful of Dooku teaching her Dun Möch. Ventress was no Sith, and no true apprentice, she was a tool outside of the Rule of Two. As was Darth Maul, originally. And Maul was not taught Dun Möch, something Sidious received praise for from his master. And she basically falls for nearly every taunt Obi-Wan/Anakin throw at her.

[Aurbere]

Ventress was extremely capable with Dun Moch, using it in nearly every one of her lightsaber duels. We've seen her use it during the Battle of Khorm, the Ruul Deception, and during the majority of her engagements with Anakin and Obi-Wan.

[Darkelefantos]

Ventress was extremely capable with Dun Moch, using it in nearly every one of her lightsaber duels. We've seen her use it during the Battle of Khorm, the Ruul Deception, and during the majority of her engagements with Anakin and Obi-Wan.

 

Well, true enough. But who's to say she had training in this? Maul wasn't ever taught, then he spent a couple of years trapped in his mad mind, then he comes back into The Clone Wars and suddenly he knows enough to use it against Obi-Wan.

Anyway, since you're here already, Aurbere, what does the lore say about her defense against Force Lightning? I'm curious if I remembered that correctly.

[Stinghen]

He used Force Scream after Van Zallow attacked his wife.

 

Also, if Malgus is even *moved* by the Force push at all, which is debatable, as is the existence of a wall in the area they are fighting in, it doesn't mean he's going to care. I'm pretty sure he's had worse injuries. Like being pushed into the mountain by Satele. And he walked that off.

 

I don't think Malgus has the beef to resist a Force push by someone like Ventress. Sidious praised her as being quite powerful, and grew afraid Dooku might feel tempted to take her for an apprentice and kill him for the position of Sith Master. He was pushed aside by both Shan and Darach, which shows Ventress also has a kindly good chance of pulling it off.

 

But you're stretching. He didn't walk off from being thrown against a mountain only to have the mountain subsequently fall over his head, he nearly died, sustained only by his rage and wrath (to such an extent that Darth Sidious handed Malgus' war journal to Darth Vader, to serve as inspiration to what can be done by a powerful Sith Lord in the field of resisting debilitating injuries). But to say he was unaffected by it is too much of a stretch - he was condemned to a respirator for the rest of his life.

 

And though Darth Malgus might not die from being thrown against/through a wall, it would still affect him. It could knock him out of wind for a precious few seconds, during which time his reaction speed would be severely hampered, and when fighting two lightsabers that's almost certain death. It could stagger him, it could break bones, it'd give him pain. All of these can snuff his battle rage and his focus, as even a Sith Lord like him could be overcome by severe pain.

 

I am also doubtful of Dooku teaching her Dun Möch. Ventress was no Sith, and no true apprentice, she was a tool outside of the Rule of Two. As was Darth Maul, originally. And Maul was not taught Dun Möch, something Sidious received praise for from his master. And she basically falls for nearly every taunt Obi-Wan/Anakin throw at her.

 

Dum Möch is a specific term to what the Sith call taunting. There's not much to it but picking words carefully to crack an enemy's emotional armour. A Dark Jedi who never heard of the Sith could be very capable in that regard, and Luke turned Dun Möch on its head, and applied the results to throw his father off focus and plant doubt in his mind, which in the end contributed to Vader's redemption.

 

Maul didn't use it because he chose not to. Sidious treated him as a tool, but Maul was still a Sith Lord, or else he'd never have Darth attached to his name. And Ventress was quite adept at taunts and provocations.

Edited November 18, 2013 by Stinghen

[Beniboybling]

I think Ventress would lose. Stinghen refers to Malgus' form as 'brutish' but it was effective. And on top of that such brute force tactics are Ventress' number one weakness. Or rather the inherent weakness of Makashi:

 

However, the greatest flaw of the Makashi system of combat was its lack of kinetic energy; the focus on precision and blade control hampered the ability to generate momentum in both its offensive and defensive maneuvers, leaving the attacks easily shunted aside and its parries easily battered aside. This lack of physical force left Makashi practitioners vulnerable to duelists utilizing more contemporary forms, which emphasized power and brute strength.

 

--Taken from Wookieepedia

 

No observe

Malgus utterly devastate Darach, a Jedi Battlemaster no less, simply by battering him down. Ventress simply couldn't withstand an attack of such magnitude and would be battered down in short order.

 

On top of that, Ventress is an inferior Force User made quite evident via their various displays. I saw mention of Malgus not favoring lighting in battle but that is not strictly true, on two occasions (which makes up for about a third of Malgus' engagements) he has exploded lightning in the midst of a one-on-one lightsaber duel.

 

And Malgus' lightning was devastating, a single off hand blast was enough to fry a Jedi Knight and two Padawans - killing them instantly. Dooku's lightning alone was enough to completely subdue Ventress, and I regard Malgus to be demonstrably more powerful than Dooku. Ventress struggled even to block Dooku's lightning.

 

Force based attacks on Ventress's part would however be largely unsuccessful. Ventress cannot 'push him through a wall' she's simply not that powerful and has never done that before, and any attacks that do hit Malgus can tank - which means rapid recovery and he won't feel the pain. He certainly won't be winded considering the armour he is wearing which would protect him from impact. How would Ventress fare on the other hand? Badly.

 

In terms of Dun Moch, it would end in resounding failure. Malgus was immune to taunts by way of Force rage, a state in which Malgus was constantly in when in battle, he probably wont even comprehend Ventress' attempts to undermine him and if he does it will only make him more angry - see the boomerang effect.

 

The only way Ventress can win is to run away and lure Malgus into a trap, but even then Malgus has remarkable durability and can survive intense levels of pain without even being phased. Ventress is just outclassed.

 

EDIT: For the record, Ventress has never been confirmed to have mastered a single lightsaber form.

Edited November 18, 2013 by Beniboybling