More tanks are required.

[Mallorik]

They should have tanking and healing certifications, if you want to tank lvl50 hm you have to tank 10 lvl50 fps to get certified.

[Kurzaa]

If I ever get abused in lowbie flashpoints as a tank I'll usually say "Well if you're gonna be like that do you want me to leave so you can wait an hour or 2 to get another tank and waste your time?" and usually that shuts them up.

 

What bothers me are the tanks that need on everything because no one will complain. They are the crooked cops of MMOs. Had one just last night who was a lousy tank, him and his healer friend intentionally wiped the group on the PITA pull at the start of Hammer Station, and then later they both stealthed past a group of mobs leaving the two dps behind to deal with them. Overall just a crappy run where you knew if you said one negative thing, you would get kicked and replaced with another dps.

 

Personally, I think the WoWs 5-mans and SWTORs 4-man content should be rebalanced to eliminate the need for healers and tanks...just like WoWs scenarios were implemented. Then at the level cap, once tanking gear and the need for harder content arises, You can implement 4-man hardmodes, possibly even based on the leveling 4-man content. Aleviates tanking "shortages" from lvls 1-54.

[Kurzaa]

They should have tanking and healing certifications, if you want to tank lvl50 hm you have to tank 10 lvl50 fps to get certified.

 

So you want to FURTHER restrict the number of available tanks?

 

When I tried tanking a few low level instances on my assassin...even trying to stack "tank" gear for a mid-20 something, my biggest issues were dps not knowing to take out the weak mobs first, and damn marauders jumping in and attacking the big ****** they could find before I even broke stealth. The really helpful ones would attack the target right after I CC them.

 

Personally, I want to see the stories. I have no issue waiting in a queue as dps while completing missions.

Edited November 15, 2013 by Kurzaa

[Mallorik]

So you want to FURTHER restrict the number of available tanks?

 

If all youre looking for is dps with a shield icon on his character window then yeah I guess it would restrict the number of available tanks. If youre looking for a tank who has an idea about how to tank then I don't think it would restrict anything.

 

Heck you could give awards for getting certified up to 55hm's and youd probably end up with more tanks than you have now and they would be experienced to boot.

[Kurzaa]

If all youre looking for is dps with a shield icon on his character window then yeah I guess it would restrict the number of available tanks. If youre looking for a tank who has an idea about how to tank then I don't think it would restrict anything.

 

Heck you could give awards for getting certified up to 55hm's and youd probably end up with more tanks than you have now and they would be experienced to boot.

 

I would rather have a shielded dps who asks questions and accepts input on how to tank better, but will settle for 3-man mobs with a dps tanking until the next boss. Then the shielded dps should at least stay alive long enough for the rest of the group to finish off the boss, and will hopefully learn the fight while kissing the ground.

[naldoran]

As a tank, I can't buy worthwhile gear with commendations. It's all either unoptimized junk, or has non-tanking stats like alacrity and accuracy, or both.

 

Neither Elite nor Ultimate comms have anything to offer me in terms of loot, due to how Bioware has constructed the vendor gear. What possible reason besides helping out guildmates or farming gear for my alt do I have to queue for FPs? None that I can think of, which is why you won't see me in the FP queues.

 

Putting up with pug-quality DPS is a pain, and there's precisely zero incentive in terms of gear to do so. If tanks could buy optimized mods (like every other class / spec) with elite / ultimate comms, you'd see me in FP queues a bit more often. As it stands, there's no reason gear-wise to tank anything but operations or guild runs.

[Mallorik]

I would rather have a shielded dps who asks questions and accepts input on how to tank better, but will settle for 3-man mobs with a dps tanking until the next boss. Then the shielded dps should at least stay alive long enough for the rest of the group to finish off the boss, and will hopefully learn the fight while kissing the ground.

 

I don't know what youre talking about.

[Rynis]

Dare I mention cross server queues in a PVE thread

[Mallorik]

Dare I mention cross server queues in a PVE thread

 

No because the flat earth anti game improvement mob will move in and say that cross server doesn't decrease que times because they don't understand different time zones and play times exist.

Edited November 15, 2013 by Mallorik

[Starglitter]

Mmm...

 

A very interesting comment about two tanks to a group...

 

Until recently I had been running a "Hybrid" DPS Inquisitor Assassin, but the "perfection freaks" complained too much over it for I did not fit in their perception of what is right. My Hybrid based on careful analysis had this characteristics:

 

I noted that if I used the correct skill mix during combat, energy was not a problem, as a result:

 

I switched my off-hand Eergy Generator for a Shield Generator.

 

What actually happened?

 

I had to pay mych closer attention to my skill use sequence, but never had lack of energy issues, and gained about 7% chance that my shield would block about 8% damage. I did remain in the same deception spec tree and used the extra damage stance.

 

Out of curiosity, I decided to change my damage stance to my tank stance.

 

What happened?

 

My DPS dropped by about 8%, which meant mobs that took 4 hits to kill would now take 5. Perhaps a problem for stop-watch groups for sure.

 

My Shield Chance skyrocketed to 28% and damage absorption also raised to about 28% as well.

 

So i found myself at a trade off point, is it worth to me to loose 8% DPS and gain 8% (32% chance for 32% absorption) damage mitigation?

 

It got more interesting, what happened if I dropped my accuracy from 110 to 105%?

 

DPS loss was still 8%, but my shield chance raised to 38% and 38% damage absorption, which began to give me a more tankish look and had also gained several thousand hitpoints too.

 

So to the external viewer, I appeared to be a tank and not a DPS, and really took a lot of flack, despite that I had not really given up that much DPS, and now had a fairly robust Assassin.

 

I still think the hybrid build is the way to go, but the community gave me too much flak and changed to wimpy full DPS version. Its sad for in one occassion, the tank got creamed, and I was able to stand up to the boss long enough for the healer to rez and prep the tank for round 2.

 

Incidentally either build had a 20% Defense chance, that did not vary.

 

Sue

[gorstram]

Mmm...

 

A very interesting comment about two tanks to a group...

 

Until recently I had been running a "Hybrid" DPS Inquisitor Assassin, but the "perfection freaks" complained too much over it for I did not fit in their perception of what is right. My Hybrid based on careful analysis had this characteristics:

 

I noted that if I used the correct skill mix during combat, energy was not a problem, as a result:

 

I switched my off-hand Eergy Generator for a Shield Generator.

 

What actually happened?

 

I had to pay mych closer attention to my skill use sequence, but never had lack of energy issues, and gained about 7% chance that my shield would block about 8% damage. I did remain in the same deception spec tree and used the extra damage stance.

 

Out of curiosity, I decided to change my damage stance to my tank stance.

 

What happened?

 

My DPS dropped by about 8%, which meant mobs that took 4 hits to kill would now take 5. Perhaps a problem for stop-watch groups for sure.

 

My Shield Chance skyrocketed to 28% and damage absorption also raised to about 28% as well.

 

So i found myself at a trade off point, is it worth to me to loose 8% DPS and gain 8% (32% chance for 32% absorption) damage mitigation?

 

It got more interesting, what happened if I dropped my accuracy from 110 to 105%?

 

DPS loss was still 8%, but my shield chance raised to 38% and 38% damage absorption, which began to give me a more tankish look and had also gained several thousand hitpoints too.

 

So to the external viewer, I appeared to be a tank and not a DPS, and really took a lot of flack, despite that I had not really given up that much DPS, and now had a fairly robust Assassin.

 

I still think the hybrid build is the way to go, but the community gave me too much flak and changed to wimpy full DPS version. Its sad for in one occassion, the tank got creamed, and I was able to stand up to the boss long enough for the healer to rez and prep the tank for round 2.

 

Incidentally either build had a 20% Defense chance, that did not vary.

 

Sue

 

Your analysis works fine for storymode content. I don't think I would assign you to MT duty, but if you were OT'ing or DPS'ing, it wouldn't be a problem. But if you were in a hardmode operation, this hybrid spec of yours would be detrimental to the raid both in terms of being a tank and being a DPS. You wouldn't have the mititgation, and you certainly wouldn't have the DPS to help make an enrage timer.

[DarthTHC]

Dare I mention cross server queues in a PVE thread

 

You could mention it, but the only way it would solve anything is if there is a great disparity in the number of tanks willing to run random flashpoints between servers. I sort of doubt there's a big enough discrepancy to make a difference.

[Mallorik]

You could mention it, but the only way it would solve anything is if there is a great disparity in the number of tanks willing to run random flashpoints between servers. I sort of doubt there's a big enough discrepancy to make a difference.

 

I told you so.

[DarthTHC]

I told you so.

 

Which server(s) complain of an abundance of tanks? Of tanks waiting in queues because they don't have healers or DPS available?

[Marmerus]

You could mention it, but the only way it would solve anything is if there is a great disparity in the number of tanks willing to run random flashpoints between servers. I sort of doubt there's a big enough discrepancy to make a difference.

Does not really matter if the problem is still the same on the other servers. Cross server would mean the pool with players is bigger so finding a tank during early and late hours increases so the overall wait is lower.

[Chowley]

There's a basic problem with tanking in SWTOR which is shared in common with many other MMOs - for a lot of players tanking simply is not much fun. Just some of the reasons why this might be:

 

* Responsibility. Tanks carry the extra responsibility of needing to know the fights and lead from the front. If things go wrong, often the tank gets the blame, even when it's not really their fault.

 

* Steep learning curve - many boss fights can be complex and unforgiving of mistakes. Inexperience shows for tanks. If you are new to a FP or encounter, as a dps or healer you can often wing it to a certain extent. As a tank much less so.

 

* Crowd control. There's WAY too much crowd control in the game when you're a tank you eat it all. Being punted around like a pinball and losing control of your character for significant periods of time isn't much fun, especially when your role is to try and control the fight.

 

* Far too much attention to detail needed - position the boss here, face him there, move the boss to X when event Y happens, don't stand in this, do stand in that, interupt this but not that, pick up these adds when they spawn, but not those. etc etc.

 

Now, some players thrive on all the above. But too many don't, hence the shortage of tanks.

 

The solution? More role neutral FPs (the CZ-198 normal mode FPs are great examples of this). More operations where if they can't be entirely role neutral at least some of the emphasis should be taken off the tank(s). Less crowd control in general - don't use crowd control to artificially make things more difficult, find better ways to challenge the players (all the players, not just the tanks).

 

I have to agree, I am levelling a defence Guardian at the moment and jesus its dull, I cant stop thinking about switching to the Focus tree. Also I wish people would appreciate tanks more, its torture levelling one .

I have quite enjoyed flashpoints so far as a tank, but the usual questing stuff is just meh, I enjoyed my sage, my smuggler, my agent, but guardian not a lot. You use about 4 skills and take a fair while to kill mobs.

[ImpactHound]

I told you so.

 

LOL!

[Mallorik]

Which server(s) complain of an abundance of tanks? Of tanks waiting in queues because they don't have healers or DPS available?

 

I just said people would respond who don't understand what different play times and time zones mean. I was right.

[Mavery]

There are a couple of reasons why there is a tank shortage in SWTOR:

 

i) Tanks who do Operations have no need to do HM FPs. This has been a recurring problem in SWTOR and will be the biggest hurdle until it is addressed.

 

ii) There are two DPS per tank/healer. If you want to make things better, tune FPS to 3 or even 4 DPS per tank / healer. That will speed the queues up considerable.

 

Unless you want to create a metre topping tank (and I don't need to tell anyone how problematic this would be) tanks are not going up. Players, for whatever reason, do not want to play tanks. This is a problem in every MMO; it's not something solely affecting SWTOR. But what BioWare can do is increase DPS per tanks to make this problem more bearable.

[DarthTHC]

I just said people would respond who don't understand what different play times and time zones mean. I was right.

 

What do time zones and play times have to do with it?

 

The issue is a lack of tanks, right?

 

One proposed solution is cross-server PvE queues, right?

 

However, that solution only works if there is at least one server on which there is an abundance of tanks. So many tanks that they complain they have to wait in groupfinder queues.

 

Where is that server? Where are those complaints?

 

I don't oppose cross-server PvE queues. At one point, I argued in favor of them. However since there seems to be a lack of tanks on all servers, it won't solve the problem, will it?

 

Your suggestion about not understanding time zones and play times related to the lack of tanks issue is like not understanding the color red related to gasoline prices. They don't have anything to do with each other.

 

For cross-server queues to help, there must be at least one server with too many tanks. Tell me, oh wise one, which server is it?

Edited November 15, 2013 by DarthTHC

[Jeweledleah]

No because the flat earth anti game improvement mob will move in and say that cross server doesn't decrease que times because they don't understand different time zones and play times exist.

 

so decreasing queue time in the middle of the night server time is worth all the other drawbacks of cross server queue that will NOT change the prime time wait times?

 

don't answer that. it was a rhetorical question.

 

but sure, lets claim that people who are against cross server are equivalent of anti science and anti progress.

 

edited to explain what he meant by time zones. if you play during off hours for your server, like say - 3am. your queus will be exponentially longer, solely becasue there are fewer people queuing, period. cross server queue WILl fix that. but that's all it will fix.

 

prime time wait will not change. actually it will change. it will be longer becasue even more tanks/healers will stop queuing becasue pugs from your own server can be bad enough, but at least you can do something about them. pugs from other servers that you may or may not see ever again? whole other issue.

Edited November 15, 2013 by Jeweledleah

[Marmerus]

What do time zones and play times have to do with it?

 

The issue is a lack of tanks, right?

 

One proposed solution is cross-server PvE queues, right?

 

However, that solution only works if there is at least one server on which there is an abundance of tanks. So many tanks that they complain they have to wait in groupfinder queues.

 

Where is that server? Where are those complaints?

 

I don't oppose cross-server PvE queues. At one point, I argued in favor of them. However since there seems to be a lack of tanks on all servers, it won't solve the problem, will it?

 

Your suggestion about not understanding time zones and play times related to the lack of tanks issue is like not understanding the color red related to gasoline prices. They don't have anything to do with each other.

 

For cross-server queues to help, there must be at least one server with too many tanks. Tell me, oh wise one, which server is it?

 

Like I said earlier it does not matter if there is the same problem of shortage on tanks on other servers. It will get the rotation of groups going FASTER if the pool of players is increased.

 

It also means during early hours and late hours it will be possible to find a group when it normally dies out for several hours each day.

 

So yes in terms of speed it will get faster. But not by much with exception of early and late hours.

[Marmerus]

so decreasing queue time in the middle of the night server time is worth all the other drawbacks of cross server queue

What drawbacks?

[DarthTHC]

Like I said earlier it does not matter if there is the same problem of shortage on tanks on other servers. It will get the rotation of groups going FASTER if the pool of players is increased.

 

It also means during early hours and late hours it will be possible to find a group when it normally dies out for several hours each day.

 

So yes in terms of speed it will get faster. But not by much with exception of early and late hours.

 

No, actually it won't rotate groups any faster than they are now. Speed of assembly is limited by available tanks. As soon as a tank enters the queue, the group pops. This is true on ALL servers.

 

If there were tanks complaining of waits in queues, I would buy your argument.

 

I will buy that during extreme off-hours, it might help. So they should code this so that 4 or 5 extra groups can form across all servers during off-hours?

 

Wouldn't a better method be for the DPS who complain of slow queue times to roll a tank and learn to tank and even become better DPS in the process?

[Mallorik]

What drawbacks?

 

They think if we have cross server we will get bad players in the fp que, like they could be worse than they are now.