extreme_one Posted October 25, 2013 Share Posted October 25, 2013 Seems to me marauders are the class that getting the axe. Just read the changes. The change that affect the entire game is of course the 5 min bloodthirst cd. Basically means all ops will be harders by at least 15%. Since usually u run bt twice during ops. Undying rage and force camouflage has been getting worse ever since day one. It's getting tiring. It can't be that you discover the stats are balanced or unbalanced all of the sudden. It's just unbelievable that after 2 years you still consider classes be unbalanced and have to change them over and over again. When is it going to end? Don't come and say that it's minor changes. Because it's not. Either you have been wrong and blind and not seen that a certain class has been unbalanced OR as I think the classes are already balanced you just make it harder to play popular classes. The changes to bloodthirst are huge. It equals the change of 1 medpac per fight done long time ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OlosBC Posted October 25, 2013 Share Posted October 25, 2013 Unless you run 2 maras in 8m or 4 in 16m (2 in each group of 4 DPS), and theyre all carnage,this change is not a nerf. Bloodthirst now applies to the whole raid, not just the group, and maras can continue to gain fury during it and predation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
extreme_one Posted October 25, 2013 Author Share Posted October 25, 2013 Many ops teams have 2 maras. Yes ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emperor-Norton Posted October 26, 2013 Share Posted October 26, 2013 Many ops teams have 2 maras. Yes ! And therefore Marauders were making up one out of every 4 raid spots, that is something Bioware didn't like. They said they wanted Marauders and Snipers to have good Utility to be brought to raids, but not in its current state where they hog most of the DPS spots. Considering how Inspiration was always seen as a reason for taking a Marauder over any other mDPS, making the utility even better but making stacking unnecessary was a wise design choice. Very little complaining over this strikes me as anything less than don't nerf me bro (with what I would hardly call a nerf). I almost would kind of like if Inspiration was taken away from Sents if we were given extra DPS to compensate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
extreme_one Posted October 26, 2013 Author Share Posted October 26, 2013 I think they should just start messing around with the classes. People will always complain here and there and usually itäs not based on facts but perceptions ^^. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emperor-Norton Posted October 26, 2013 Share Posted October 26, 2013 (edited) I think they should just start messing around with the classes. People will always complain here and there and usually itäs not based on facts but perceptions ^^. "Translation: Don't Nerf Me, I want to be OP!" They aren't starting, they have always been and always will balancing Classes. In the current build of the game, all classes (rDPS and mDPS) are on relatively equal footings when it comes to their DPS output, with Guardians being the sole exception. What separates Sentinels and Slingers, is Sents are very survivable for mDPS and have excellent utility in Pacify and Inspiration, while Slingers are very Survivable in SS and have excellent Utility with their Shield which is useful used alone in 8man and almost cheeseing level good in 16man when you can chain it together (Killing Vilus on Council, Brontes Burn, Council Burn, etc.). Honestly I am surprised they haven't moved to nerf the Shield before Inspiration, but I think it is on the way. I do think Bioware is fighting a losing battle with trying to get Top Guilds to take all classes. The nature of Hardcore Guilds is to use every advantage possible. It is irrelevant how close balance gets, they will take whatever is best and whatever they can mold to work the best. Edited November 7, 2013 by Emperor-Norton Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HaoZhao Posted October 26, 2013 Share Posted October 26, 2013 Why ask the question when the answers are clearly laid out in the 2.5 explanation from the developers? 1. Bloodthirst was causing dumb raid leaders to stack marauders at the gross expense of other DPS classes who were being left behind. 2) Undying rage in its current form makes marauders live way too long in PVP. Class balancing is a constant endeavour that never really ends. The developers are few. The players are many. Players will always find a way to abuse classes that the developers couldn't see with their limited testing resources. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheSupaCoopa Posted October 26, 2013 Share Posted October 26, 2013 The "Nerfs"(Most of these balancing was buffs) was to decrease the utility of the class and to make other DPS classes, like Mercs or APs and even Sorcs more viable for raids. BW noticed that most people just brought Maras with them. Most APs and Arsenal Mercs can't find raid slots, so they had to decrease the utility of Marauders. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benovide Posted October 26, 2013 Share Posted October 26, 2013 DON'T NERF ME BRO! Dude, you have greater survivability than any Assassin/Shadow and long term produce greater damage. (Shad/Assa are short term damage dealers, not long term) the reason behind this is because Marauder/Sentinals are always apart of ops, it's mandatory to fill as many DPS slots in an OP with Marauder/Sentinals over Sniper/Ops/Sorcs/Assassins/Shadows/Mercs/Commandos. I've played Ops on one of my BHs, I was the only BH in the entire group. and I was a Powertech, and then we had two Juggernauts, and then 9 Marauders, with four Sorcs. Next Op: 15 players all Marauders and then me in my newest level 51 Sorc. Not only are Marauders Mandatory, they make up the bulk of players in any Op I've ever been in. They will toss Ops/Assa/Mercs to the curb before turning down a marauder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
extreme_one Posted October 27, 2013 Author Share Posted October 27, 2013 Hahahaha Is that why we never see any marauders at the end of the arenas? Stop the BS. AT least 1/3 of all rWZ's there is a assassin left and that says it all about their survivability. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
extreme_one Posted October 27, 2013 Author Share Posted October 27, 2013 Why ask the question when the answers are clearly laid out in the 2.5 explanation from the developers? 1. Bloodthirst was causing dumb raid leaders to stack marauders at the gross expense of other DPS classes who were being left behind. 2) Undying rage in its current form makes marauders live way too long in PVP. Class balancing is a constant endeavour that never really ends. The developers are few. The players are many. Players will always find a way to abuse classes that the developers couldn't see with their limited testing resources. "Class balancing is a constant endeavour that never really ends. " The definition of insanity... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OlosBC Posted October 27, 2013 Share Posted October 27, 2013 "Class balancing is a constant endeavour that never really ends. " The definition of insanity... Constant class balancing is a staple of pretty much every MMO. Especially after an expansion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HaoZhao Posted October 27, 2013 Share Posted October 27, 2013 "Class balancing is a constant endeavour that never really ends. " The definition of insanity... You quoted me but didn't actually have the courage to respond to anything I said. You just dismissed me in a really juvenile way. How embarrassing for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
verfallen Posted October 28, 2013 Share Posted October 28, 2013 What mostly is hit is not a single's marauder utility but stacking marauders utility. And thats a good thing. Your individual fury effectiveness as pointed out increases, since before any mara popping BT was slightly lessening your pre-buff dps by stopping fury generation so long as it was on. I can't speak for arenas, but stealthers hit and running is not survivability, its them doing their job at being difficult to focus down. I'm not convinced about undying rage changes but I agree maras have a lot of tools aside from it and the change is somewhat warranted. Now however, I'd like to see classes like merc and sorc receive new purely utility buff that makes them a strenght in raids. I saw something on a friend playing WoW (I normally hate drawong ideas, but that one was really bright) that his toon (a fat panda that goes black, whatever the class) could with that cd up heal the raid for the ammount it dpsed. I find that a great idea for sage/sorc dps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkiaTheShade Posted October 31, 2013 Share Posted October 31, 2013 Hahahaha Is that why we never see any marauders at the end of the arenas? Stop the BS. AT least 1/3 of all rWZ's there is a assassin left and that says it all about their survivability. Dude, come on! They are WILDLY different classes and playstyles. You have to look at each classes style while balancing. Marauders are supposed to be straight up killers, not the most survivable and simultaneously highest DPS in the game. Undying Rage is not supposed to allow you to fully heal up, it's supposed to be a last stand mechanic. Marauder's have better survivability then every class except maybe Assassin's, as you said. Assassin's it makes sense though. They are a stealth class with front loaded burst damage. Marauders have huge AoE burst, or huge consistent single target damage, and amazing cooldowns. It sucks when your class gets nerfed, but someone who truly understands the game and can see balance from other angles will understand when a nerf is needed. Even if it's their own class. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dire Posted November 1, 2013 Share Posted November 1, 2013 Seems to me marauders are the class that getting the axe. Just read the changes. The change that affect the entire game is of course the 5 min bloodthirst cd. Basically means all ops will be harders by at least 15%. Since usually u run bt twice during ops. Undying rage and force camouflage has been getting worse ever since day one. It's getting tiring. It can't be that you discover the stats are balanced or unbalanced all of the sudden. It's just unbelievable that after 2 years you still consider classes be unbalanced and have to change them over and over again. When is it going to end? Don't come and say that it's minor changes. Because it's not. Either you have been wrong and blind and not seen that a certain class has been unbalanced OR as I think the classes are already balanced you just make it harder to play popular classes. The changes to bloodthirst are huge. It equals the change of 1 medpac per fight done long time ago. Don't be a clown. You need a nerf. End. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xenphon Posted November 1, 2013 Share Posted November 1, 2013 (edited) The fun thing about the change is that BW wanted less stacking of a single class, but in reality it will probably be one mara out and another sniper in. Snipers will output the same damage, often more due to the nature of most fights, and they also bring a third shield into the fray. That is probably the biggest oddity in the patch for me, that they remove the option to juggle BTs in raids, but they still include the possibility of juggling shields. Seems odd that defensive juggling is fine, but not offensive. The change itself will increase a single marauder's dps slightly, due to the possibility of building fury during BT now. UD I don't particularly care that much about, as I do not dabble much in pvp. Edited November 1, 2013 by Xenphon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaos_KidSWTOR Posted November 7, 2013 Share Posted November 7, 2013 The fun thing about the change is that BW wanted less stacking of a single class, but in reality it will probably be one mara out and another sniper in. Snipers will output the same damage, often more due to the nature of most fights, and they also bring a third shield into the fray. That is probably the biggest oddity in the patch for me, that they remove the option to juggle BTs in raids, but they still include the possibility of juggling shields. Seems odd that defensive juggling is fine, but not offensive. The change itself will increase a single marauder's dps slightly, due to the possibility of building fury during BT now. UD I don't particularly care that much about, as I do not dabble much in pvp. Well now the best raid grouping would be for 8 Man Jugg Tank (Main Tank) Carnage Marauder Marksman Sniper Engineering Sniper Madness Sin Sin Tank (Off Tank) and either 2x Operative heals or Operative and Sorc Heals. Yes, Madness Sin would be ideal. because the Engi sniper has 45 sec CD on the AOE defence thingy. MM Sniper has hard hitting Orbital Strike, Carnage Mara has Bloodthirst AND Predation, Madness Sin has good DoT damage and Burst, along with Self Heals. Jugg Tank for the AOE taunt buff, so when a boss does Raidwide damage, you can pop the AOE defence thing, Predation, and AOE Taunt Buff all in one! that's like 70% Damage Reduced to the entire raid! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emperor-Norton Posted November 7, 2013 Share Posted November 7, 2013 (edited) Well now the best raid grouping would be for 8 Man because the Engi sniper has 45 sec CD on the AOE defence thingy. (it is 150 second when talented) MM Sniper has hard hitting Orbital Strike, (Engineering and Hybrid hit harder, MM is just casted faster and more often) Carnage Mara has Bloodthirst AND Predation, Madness Sin has good DoT damage and Burst, along with Self Heals. Jugg Tank for the AOE taunt buff, so when a boss does Raidwide damage, you can pop the AOE defence thing, Predation, and AOE Taunt Buff all in one! that's like 70% Damage Reduced to the entire raid! Very certain you have no idea what you are talking about. And I wouldn't ask someone whose Guild can't beat OP IX in SM for advice on setting up raid teams. Edited November 7, 2013 by Emperor-Norton Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TorvinAugeri Posted November 7, 2013 Share Posted November 7, 2013 Why would anyone bring a Madness sin when they can bring a Madness sorc instead? ...no wait, don't answer that question, I know the answer: because they're Kaos_Kid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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