Icestar Posted October 21, 2013 Share Posted October 21, 2013 (edited) The term in modern MMOs has evolved to being irrelevant actually. It comes from an era when there were NO loot switches at all and a player looting something they could not use. It has evolved to cover most of the options a player has to take a item, may it be for example against the communitys social rules regarding loot. I do not think it has been evolved into something irrelevant, it is good to know history and how players work together with or without gamemechanics that prevents player taking items. In this game of companions... almost all players can in fact use all loot drops. The issue here is the ethics of looting for companion, not taking loot you cannot use. Yes, and most of this games players follow the social rules and they say that need is not for a companion. If a player decides to break those rules by choice or accident or simply not knowing it can end up with a group kick and a spot on ignore. I have met players that thinks greed is something very very bad that nobody should ever do, so they keep on pressing need. A simple solution would be to implement a common sense lootsystem, to avoid those complications. And as I stated... communicate the loot terms up front... and if a player breaks the terms.. you vote kick them on the first offense. Hamsters can be trained...so can badly behaved players... who would get tired of getting vote-kicked for wearing a d-bag as a hat. Then you have not done many PUGs below level 50, simply writing the "loot rules" in chat does not work in many cases. Especially if the player pressing need/greed has no clue what the buttons actually do Edited October 21, 2013 by Icestar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andryah Posted October 21, 2013 Share Posted October 21, 2013 Then you have not done many PUGs below level 50, simply writing the "loot rules" in chat does not work in many cases. Especially if the player pressing need/greed has no clue what the buttons actually do It won't help you personally on any particular PUG... but it will train the clueless to get a clue for the next set of folks in another PUG. Pay it forward, and stop being strictly self-interested IMO. Besides... if they are clueless as to how to use the buttons.. how does adding another button fix the problem for you? Huh? -------> It won't. This is a player behavior problem and in the end.. it is up to players to help other players fix their behavior problems (overall, for the long term, for the server community). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gorstram Posted October 21, 2013 Share Posted October 21, 2013 Then you have not done many PUGs below level 50, simply writing the "loot rules" in chat does not work in many cases. Especially if the player pressing need/greed has no clue what the buttons actually do I blame the freebs on that one. Almost every instance 1-50 where I see this happening is with a freeb. I've seen this happen on a couple of subs, but usually you can shame them into trading the item. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Icestar Posted October 21, 2013 Share Posted October 21, 2013 (edited) Besides... if they are clueless as to how to use the buttons.. how does adding another button fix the problem for you? Huh? -------> It won't. This is a player behavior problem and in the end.. it is up to players to help other players fix their behavior problems (overall, for the long term, for the server community). Read my posts, my solution is preventing players from needing on items their character does not benefit from not adding another button. This has been discussed since launch without any proper response from Bioware, to be honest I do not think this thread will lead to a change either. But it is good to keep on trying Edited October 21, 2013 by Icestar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
branmakmuffin Posted October 21, 2013 Share Posted October 21, 2013 (edited) As noted multiple times, "Need for Companion" will not eliminate "ninja looting." Read my posts, my solution is preventing players from needing on items their character does not benefit from not adding another button. This has been discussed since launch without any proper response from Bioware, to be honest I do not think this thread will lead to a change either. But it is good to keep on trying Yes, tilting at windmills, ice skating uphill and spitting into the wind are always good ideas. Edited October 21, 2013 by branmakmuffin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ninjonxb Posted October 21, 2013 Share Posted October 21, 2013 Read my posts, my solution is preventing players from needing on items their character does not benefit from not adding another button. This has been discussed since launch without any proper response from Bioware, to be honest I do not think this thread will lead to a change either. But it is good to keep on trying There was a post by Bioware. I have been trying to find it but failing to since I can't search dev posts Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Icestar Posted October 21, 2013 Share Posted October 21, 2013 (edited) There was a post by Bioware. I have been trying to find it but failing to since I can't search dev posts Yes it was in the beginning of 2012 . A DEV made a quick response that they should probably change the lootsystem to the way I keep on writing about. I do not count that DEV post though, since I think the entire "loot rule team" were laid off when they removed tons of DEVs. Edited October 21, 2013 by Icestar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
branmakmuffin Posted October 21, 2013 Share Posted October 21, 2013 Yes it was in the beginning of 2002 . A DEV made a quick response that they should probably change the lootsystem to the way I keep on writing about. I do not count that DEV post though, since I think the entire "loot rule team" were laid off when they removed tons of DEVs. The "loot rule team." That's funny. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gorstram Posted October 21, 2013 Share Posted October 21, 2013 Yes it was in the beginning of 2002 . A DEV made a quick response that they should probably change the lootsystem to the way I keep on writing about. I do not count that DEV post though, since I think the entire "loot rule team" were laid off when they removed tons of DEVs. 2002? Woah! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Icestar Posted October 21, 2013 Share Posted October 21, 2013 (edited) 2002? Woah! Haha, my bad 2012 Fixed my post Edited October 21, 2013 by Icestar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andryah Posted October 21, 2013 Share Posted October 21, 2013 (edited) Read my posts, my solution is preventing players from needing on items their character does not benefit from not adding another button. I've read your posts. I'm choosing to stay on topic. As for your posts and desired solution.... you are in the camp that wants the game to insert safeguards for every possible bad player behavior to protect other players from the consequences. I simply do not agree that this is a reasonable expectation for MMOs. And.. again.. the question behind all of this IS: the ethics of rolling need for companions... something generally, BUT not universally, agreed upon by the player base. In your scenario.. of tighter restrictions FORCED by the game client.. you assume your view is the only right view in every circumstance.. which is narrow sighted on your part IMO. Bioware in fact pretty consistently operates on the principle of letting players have more degrees of freedom, not less. Personally, as a mature adult.. I like their approach, even though it puts more burden on the community to actually interact and behave as a community. Edited October 21, 2013 by Andryah Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Icestar Posted October 21, 2013 Share Posted October 21, 2013 (edited) I've read your posts. I'm choosing to stay on topic. You quoted my post and wrote how does adding another button fix the problem for you? On topic or not, I simply responded to what you wrote..... As for your posts and desired solution.... you are in the camp that wants the game to insert safeguards for every possible bad player behavior to protect other players from the consequences. I simply do not agree that this is a reasonable expectation for MMOs. My solution is based on experience, the current lootsystem is not the best way to handle items since it tends to create more problems then the community wants. Read the hundreds of threads and thousands of posts regarding this topic. Personally, as a mature adult.. I like their approach, even though it puts more burden on the community to actually interact and behave as a community. If the game were designed for mature adults but it is not, it has a teen rating. Edited October 21, 2013 by Icestar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ffin Posted October 21, 2013 Share Posted October 21, 2013 If the loot is BoP, just give one of whatever drops to each player. Simple! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bubbathehut Posted October 21, 2013 Share Posted October 21, 2013 I agree that NEED should be disabled for something not designed for the class you are currently playing. That would mean people in heavy armor can't need on medium/light and so on. My bet is that if this is implemented, it will probably come in an expansion with a label of "loot 2.0", just like Diablo 3. In other words - don't hold your breath. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
branmakmuffin Posted October 21, 2013 Share Posted October 21, 2013 If the loot is BoP, just give one of whatever drops to each player. Simple! They do that in, what, GW2? LotRO went to that method. And I'm sure it will not surprise you to learn that there are people who complain about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vember Posted October 21, 2013 Share Posted October 21, 2013 (edited) /Votekick for people that need for companions against a player that can actually use it. Problem solved. I have yet to see any group members take the side of the ******* needing for his companion. Also, I'm a firm supporter of people not being able to need on stuff their class can't use. This is old tech, BW needs to implement it. Edited October 21, 2013 by Vember Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Icestar Posted October 21, 2013 Share Posted October 21, 2013 Found this: Community Q&A: Feb 24th 2012 Frung: Have you considered adding a "companion" loot roll option? Damion Schubert: We've discussed it and have a design for it - when we do this, we will make it so you can only roll 'need' on items that your advanced class is meant to use in one of its specs. I do not currently have an ETA on this feature. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dipstik Posted October 21, 2013 Share Posted October 21, 2013 i want a need for alt too Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ImpactHound Posted October 21, 2013 Share Posted October 21, 2013 Found this: Community Q&A: Feb 24th 2012 Frung: Have you considered adding a "companion" loot roll option? Damion Schubert: We've discussed it and have a design for it - when we do this, we will make it so you can only roll 'need' on items that your advanced class is meant to use in one of its specs. I do not currently have an ETA on this feature. Good find. You're an informed poster. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rafaman Posted October 21, 2013 Share Posted October 21, 2013 (edited) In thinking about it a bit more... I think Need is all you need. Lol! Look, I understand the issue. It has happened to me as well and a need roll wasn't the worst by far. We had a Ninja Master Looter not too long ago. Basically everything was going fine but after killing Styrek and a particularly good gear drop he looted all the items for himself and quickly exited while we were rolling. But my point is that designing different need buttons isn't the answer. The only way to solve it is to only be able to need items that are for your class. You will never solve the issue for token items in Ops. Besides, generally speaking, players are pretty good at policing these things especially in Ops. Players call out when someone has already won a token piece of gear and masters usually make sure that they distribute loot fairly. So... I say let the players police themselves and hammer those ninjas when they become known. Edited October 22, 2013 by Rafaman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ratajack Posted October 21, 2013 Share Posted October 21, 2013 They do that in, what, GW2? LotRO went to that method. And I'm sure it will not surprise you to learn that there are people who complain about it. I'm just curious. Why would people complain if everyone got one of what dropped? Do they feel slighted because they are not the only who got an item? Do they feel slighted because the guardian got an item applicable for the guardian, but the mesmer did not get one that would be applicable for the mesmer? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichelvanMeerten Posted October 21, 2013 Share Posted October 21, 2013 Only way to solve it is to disallow: Sorc rolling on Aim MErc on Wiss etc, etc The only class that could cause issues is Jugg/Knight cause they share mainstat but not secondary stats. this should have been implemented since start cause people are *****, always have and always will Noone is his right mind could care less what Kira from IpwnYouKnight29927 wears. Companion roll should never ever be implemented. That's what you have your abundant elite comms to use for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ratajack Posted October 21, 2013 Share Posted October 21, 2013 Only way to solve it is to disallow: Sorc rolling on Aim MErc on Wiss etc, etc The only class that could cause issues is Jugg/Knight cause they share mainstat but not secondary stats. this should have been implemented since start cause people are *****, always have and always will Noone is his right mind could care less what Kira from IpwnYouKnight29927 wears. Companion roll should never ever be implemented. That's what you have your abundant elite comms to use for. I think trooper could also cause problems since every trooper specific companion uses aim as the main stat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestXv Posted October 21, 2013 Share Posted October 21, 2013 I've never had a problem with ninja looters. In flashpoints if I want to need something for a companion then I ask if its ok first. Usually everyon already greded and merely ignores my question. I do remember back when the game came out columi drops were for base class so if a warrior item dropped only warriors could use the item but the other classes could need on it and back then someone ALWAYS needed when they didn't.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichelvanMeerten Posted October 21, 2013 Share Posted October 21, 2013 I think trooper could also cause problems since every trooper specific companion uses aim as the main stat. Companions are irrelevant to loot distribution for classes. Never ever should loot be associated with companions, they get the handme-downs and greed loot or elite comm loot. I do see where you are coming from that any trooper/bh will always roll need on AIM gear cause his/her companions use it aswell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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