If Scoundrels were never intended to use cover after lvl 10......

[Iron-Hawk]

..............then remove our requirement to be in cover to use Charged Burst and Sabotage Round. This will give us 2 more 30m usable skills. Wich we greatly lack.

 

 

 

Operatives and Scoundrels

•Operatives and Scoundrels can now be charged and pulled by other players while in cover. For Snipers and Gunslingers, cover remains unchanged.

 

Operatives and Scoundrels are very slippery, and we never intended for them to continue using cover after choosing to be an Operative/Scoundrel rather than a Sniper/Gunslinger at level 10. However, with the innate cover defenses being provided to Operatives and Scoundrels, we incentivized the use of cover beyond level 10 for them. Some Operatives and Scoundrels picked up on this incentive and used cover to become more survivable than we had intended for them to be.

 

With this change, we are moving all remaining defensive bonuses granted by cover into the Hold Position passive ability, which Snipers and Gunslingers already have. So while Operatives and Scoundrels will still be able to enter cover to use any abilities that require it, they will no longer gain any defensive bonuses while in cover. For Snipers and Gunslingers, this change has no real, noticeable effect.

[TheNahash]

Yep, they never intended Scoundrels and Operatives to use cover after lvl 10.

 

That's why we have hard-hitting abilities that only work while in cover and, most importantly, that's why it took them 2 whole years and 120+ patches (including a Digital Expansion that raised the cap and changed the skill trees) to change the way it works for scoundrels/operatives.

 

Bioware, maybe in the future you shouldn't try to "explain" your reasoning by shooting yourself in the foot with "never intended X to work a certain way" explanations, when it's taken you 2 years to change those things to how you "intended" them to work.

 

Just saying

Edited October 20, 2013 by TheNahash

[Theagg]

..............then remove our requirement to be in cover to use Charged Burst and Sabotage Round. This will give us 2 more 30m usable skills. Wich we greatly lack.

 

 

 

Operatives and Scoundrels

•Operatives and Scoundrels can now be charged and pulled by other players while in cover. For Snipers and Gunslingers, cover remains unchanged.

 

Operatives and Scoundrels are very slippery, and we never intended for them to continue using cover after choosing to be an Operative/Scoundrel rather than a Sniper/Gunslinger at level 10. However, with the innate cover defenses being provided to Operatives and Scoundrels, we incentivized the use of cover beyond level 10 for them. Some Operatives and Scoundrels picked up on this incentive and used cover to become more survivable than we had intended for them to be.

 

With this change, we are moving all remaining defensive bonuses granted by cover into the Hold Position passive ability, which Snipers and Gunslingers already have. So while Operatives and Scoundrels will still be able to enter cover to use any abilities that require it, they will no longer gain any defensive bonuses while in cover. For Snipers and Gunslingers, this change has no real, noticeable effect.

 

Given the numerous and repeated points made about Scoundrels lack of survivability in PVP that these forums have seen and pleas to Bioware to address this issue what I find worrying about the Bioware Dev notes for this upcoming change is the comment...

 

"......and used cover to become more survivable than we had intended for them to be."

 

So obviously this is why the pleas have fallen on deaf ears. Because Bioware seem to think we are already doing well enough already (in fact too well) when it comes to survivability

[TheNahash]

So obviously this is why the pleas have fallen on deaf ears. Because Bioware seem to think we are already doing well enough already (in fact too well) when it comes to survivability

 

We are.

And by "we", I mean Medic/Sawbones Operatives/Scoundrels.

Survivability isn't an issue for a half-decent operative/scoundrel healer. There have been numerous warzones that I didn't die once, although I was being focused the entire game. Yes, I did have help from my team but if I were a sorc in the same situation, I would've died 10 times.

 

Unfortunately, once again, Bioware is removing something that wasn't the main issue. But I'm sure Smashers cried enough about not being able to leap to us to make Bioware take the easy way out and remove our cover defense.

They could've taken away our Evasive Imperative/Scramble or moved Med Screen/Shield to the DPS trees or even changed the cost of Kolto Probe/SRM and we would've been fine, but no, we gotta keep those Smashers happy.

[Pilgrim_Grey]

Given the numerous and repeated points made about Scoundrels lack of survivability in PVP that these forums have seen and pleas to Bioware to address this issue what I find worrying about the Bioware Dev notes for this upcoming change is the comment...

 

"......and used cover to become more survivable than we had intended for them to be."

 

So obviously this is why the pleas have fallen on deaf ears. Because Bioware seem to think we are already doing well enough already (in fact too well) when it comes to survivability

 

This is all focused on Sawbones... Scrappers aren't using cover much other than the random sab charge, and I doubt Dirty Fighting is much. My Lethality sniper is a lowbie but pretty much uses cover like my Scrapper does--for Sab charge.

[Cryowolf]

This is all focused on Sawbones... Scrappers aren't using cover much other than the random sab charge, and I doubt Dirty Fighting is much.

 

It is a nerf to the entire AC, not just Sawbones. Many of us, Scrappers and Dirty Fighters alike, use cover to combat the swarm of leapers and pullers. Two posters who are much better than myself at describing this tactic can be found here:

 

From a Lethality Operative (DF Scoundrel) POV.

 

From a Scrapper/Concealment POV.

Edited October 21, 2013 by Cryowolf

[Pilgrim_Grey]

It is a nerf to the entire AC, not just Sawbones. Many of us, Scrappers and Dirty Fighters alike, use cover to combat the swarm of leapers and pullers. Two posters who are much better than myself at describing this tactic can be found here:

 

From a Lethality Operative (DF Scoundrel) POV.

 

From a Scrapper/Concealment POV.

 

I can see it more for Dirty Fighting, after thinking about it. My Lethality is low enough that I'm still running him like my Scrapper while applying what DOTs I can manage in the early 20s. Eventually he'll have enough ranged attacks that cover will be helpful for him. This change... I dunno, would make me want to reroll him as a Sniper Lethality, almost, but I'd rather keep the options of the other Ops trees for him.

 

I see less of a purpose for it as a Scrapper, other than node capping. You really can't do much at range or not on the move in that spec, so I don't know why you'd want to spend a lot of time in cover, except for some really rare case where you were in a 1 in 1 with a meleer and you weren't stealthed already. I don't think that's ever happened in any of my WZs with my Scrapper, and he's seen a lot. Might be more likely in arenas, but... I'm not sure.

 

Regardless, though, this is a needless nerf. It doesn't really change what makes Scoundrel healers so strong and it needlessly takes a tool away from the other two trees. Bioware needs to go back and actually look at the healing tree's abilities, not ones that it shares with the other specs.

[Cryowolf]

I think there are not many Scrappers that are doing this, but I use cover in melee range often, for short periods. The only out of stealth move you can't use in cover is Back Blast. I am certainly not advocating just sitting in cover for huge periods of time and trying to melee. But it does have its advantages.

 

I have all my melee moves on the same buttons for my main action bar and my cover bar, with Charged Burst in the cover bar slot in place of Back Blast. So, dropping into cover for a couple attacks is an easy thing.

 

Say for example, you find yourself dpsing a target down and you see that a leaper/puller is coming back from spawn, or has just killed his current target, or is likely to want to assist the guy you are trying to kill. Whatever the case may be, you happen to be the nearest enemy (tab target ftw), but you really need to finish off or put as much hurt as possible on your target. Dropping into cover to get in 2-3 more hits before he can get to you is an obviously good thing. If my target is going to stand still and yes that happens all the time, then I am going to take advantage of that.

 

I'm just a regular WZ guy with the occasional solo ranked match, but I am going to go out on a limb and assume the majority of Scrapper players are just like me. It's not like we are viable at high end PvP anyway, so we face the regs on a daily basis.

Edited October 24, 2013 by Cryowolf

[cub-lover]

Given the numerous and repeated points made about Scoundrels lack of survivability in PVP that these forums have seen and pleas to Bioware to address this issue what I find worrying about the Bioware Dev notes for this upcoming change is the comment...

 

"......and used cover to become more survivable than we had intended for them to be."

 

So obviously this is why the pleas have fallen on deaf ears. Because Bioware seem to think we are already doing well enough already (in fact too well) when it comes to survivability

 

if sawbones spec your are, since all your heals are instant nearly and requires upper hand only mostly

[RougeBeaver]

This is all focused on Sawbones... Scrappers aren't using cover much other than the random sab charge, and I doubt Dirty Fighting is much. My Lethality sniper is a lowbie but pretty much uses cover like my Scrapper does--for Sab charge.

 

You've clearly never actually played scoundrel yourself. Cover was tactically pivotal in getting off emergency heals on ourselves after taking a beating (which we take harder than anyone else), yet it was still easily interrupted so it wasn't foolproof. There's also capping an objective while crouching in cover, but this too was easily interrupted since warriors have 30m saber throws. Yet it's deemed "too powerful" while warriors and vanguards and assassins can destroy all in their path and virtually never die. So very funny.

 

Wanna know what one of the biggest downsides of cover was? Hm, I dunno...maybe the immobility? But, hey, it's overpowered if the weakest class in the game has a little something to help them stand on their toes. Nerf it. (Before you mention healers, this nerf won't affect them at all, trust me. They will just be mobile like they always are.)

 

It was also necessary when attempting to go the distance against any competent knight/warrior, but I guess that's overpowered too. So when we open up on one with our piddling 3k non-crits they'll decimate us in a few GCDs because that's "balance." So now I guess if we accidentally open on someone without realizing they're a marauder we can just crumple into a ball and cry silently, praying for a swift death. Because that's all that's going to happen.

 

Some of us actually didn't like being healers, but this god awful community despises scoundrels no matter what shape they take, and won't be satisfied until the whole AC has nothing left for the sake of preserving their magical glowstick heroes. Don't forget to nerf the roll too, I love all the suggestions so far - reduce its distance, double its energy cost, give it a 20-second cooldown. Hell, do all of those. Let's keep hammering those overpowered scoundrels.

 

Never seen anything so sad yet hilarious in my life.

[Husanak]

I agree if we are not supposed to use cover the drop the having to take a knee to pop the 2 skills we have that require it.

 

In fact... at a specific level give us a passive skill that allows both to be used out of cover... reduce there power costs by half and require an upper hand / opp.

[stormdrakelord]

I was wondering why people would request that sab charge and charged burst be non-cover when they are not to be used after lvl 10 for a scoundrel.

[Master-Nala]

I was wondering why people would request that sab charge and charged burst be non-cover when they are not to be used after lvl 10 for a scoundrel.

 

You are correct. The fact that neither of these abilities sees any improvement from the Scoundrel specs shows that they are intended to be abandoned. But that's just poor design in my opinion. The Smuggler gets these abilities very early on and use them on Ord Mantell along with cover. At no point does the game do a decent job of training the player what skills should be abandoned along the way.

 

This is even worse with specs within ACs. For example, Shadow Strike is not intended to be used by Balance Shadows but there is no in-game indication of this.

[Wainamoinen]

I was wondering why people would request that sab charge and charged burst be non-cover when they are not to be used after lvl 10 for a scoundrel.

 

Sabo Charge hits as hard as Back Blast and stacks up with other abilities for more burst. Guess I shouldn't use an available ability because... well... just because.

 

Nope.

 

Where do you get this "not to be used" from?

 

Avoid Charged Burst because it sucks for the cast time and energy.

[stormdrakelord]

Sabo Charge hits as hard as Back Blast and stacks up with other abilities for more burst. Guess I shouldn't use an available ability because... well... just because.

 

Nope.

 

Where do you get this "not to be used" from?

 

Avoid Charged Burst because it sucks for the cast time and energy.

 

From here maybe?

 

OR maybe here?

[Husanak]

You can use sabo charge easy enough by just taking a knee. Its a good skill and hits hard why would I not use it. (you can also set it up on a sleeping NPC) Having to take a knee is pretty bad design though honestly... both Sabo and Charged burst could both be turned into non cover skills... that just don't get dmg upgrades... however a high level trait could be changed / added to to add something interesting to fit the theme of the 3 trees... and perhaps even improve the end game quality of the 2 dps trees somewhat.

 

It could be very easily tailored to help improve the op DPS trees... heck it could even be folded into the Heal tree.

 

Think of this change.

 

For Sabotage Charge

Level 20 passive... allows Sabotage Charge to be used out of cover, requiring an upper hand. (no dmg increases)

 

Sawbones

Change Med Screen (perhaps remove what it does now to reduce some Sawbones self healing / or add it) - Rename it Incendiary Nano Tech... Sabo Charge detonates for X dmg over 21s.

 

Scrapper

Add to K.O trait. - 50%/100% chance to proc Rapid Sabo Trigger. Next Sabo charge does not respect the global cool down.

 

Dirty Fighting

Add to Concussion trait - When Sabo charge detonates it also causes the target to haemorrage X dmg per bleed applied.

 

For Charged Burst

Level 20 passive... allows Charged Burst to be used out of cover, requiring an upper hand. (no dmg increases)

 

Sawbones

Change Smuggled Med Delivery Trait - In addition to granting 1-2 stacks of upper hand when exiting cloak... also procs Placebo round which causes the smugglers next charged burst to reduce the targets dmg by 2.5% / 5% for 10s. {Barbiturate Round might be a funnier name lol}

 

Scrapper

Change Rolling Punches - In addition to back blast and shoot first triggering rolling punches... trait also has 33/66/100% chance to trigger Gambers Draw - Next Charged Burst activates instantly and has a 50/50 chance to fire twice and regrant upper hand.

 

Dirty Fighting

Unfair Advantage -Rename Advantage scoundrel - in addition to the unfair advantage proc. Trait also has a 20/40/60% chance to proc Outlaws Advantage - Causes the next Charged shot to activate instantly and reapply any current bleed effects on target, as well as recharge Hemoraging blast debuff.

Edited December 1, 2013 by Husanak

[Husanak]

From here maybe?

 

OR maybe here?

 

Oh I wasn't aware Bio was creating rotation guides.

[stormdrakelord]

Oh I wasn't aware Bio was creating rotation guides.

 

From what I understand of them, the people who make those guides use those "rotations" an get the maximum DPS for the specs.

 

Rotation guides are made by people who play the class, so they are usually expert advice to look at.

[Husanak]

From what I understand of them, the people who make those guides use those "rotations" an get the maximum DPS for the specs.

 

Rotation guides are made by people who play the class, so they are usually expert advice to look at.

 

I think your sort of missing the point...

 

No one is arguing that Sabo Charge and Charged Burst should be in a rotation for a scound right now.

 

Sabo is still very good in some cases... like for instance I like to play full bleed spec... so my dots don't effect sleeping targets... so you sleep 1 of 2 Elite Npcs... when the first goes down you can pre dot and sabo charge on it for a nice lead on dmg.

 

What the point of the thead is... why not change those 2 skill a bit so they make sense for both classes. Its not like Gun Slingers don't dirty kick anymore when they hit level 10.

[stormdrakelord]

I think your sort of missing the point...

 

No one is arguing that Sabo Charge and Charged Burst should be in a rotation for a scound right now.

 

Sabo is still very good in some cases... like for instance I like to play full bleed spec... so my dots don't effect sleeping targets... so you sleep 1 of 2 Elite Npcs... when the first goes down you can pre dot and sabo charge on it for a nice lead on dmg.

 

What the point of the thead is... why not change those 2 skill a bit so they make sense for both classes. Its not like Gun Slingers don't dirty kick anymore when they hit level 10.

 

It is not that they do not use it, it is that it makes no real sense. Gunslingers should not be in close quarters so it does no real good to have Dirty Kick, since they have a knockback.

 

Scoundrels hardly use cover, so sabotage charge does not get any real benefit from the AC, where as it gets a huge boost from Saboteur Gunslingers.

[Husanak]

It is not that they do not use it, it is that it makes no real sense. Gunslingers should not be in close quarters so it does no real good to have Dirty Kick, since they have a knockback.

 

Scoundrels hardly use cover, so sabotage charge does not get any real benefit from the AC, where as it gets a huge boost from Saboteur Gunslingers.

 

There is a big difference honestly...

 

I don''t know if you have played both classes or not... but I am dirty kicking and pistol whipping all the time on my GS... obviously not as often as I do on a scoun... but they are useful ... you don't consider taking a stun and a massive instant kinetic dmg skill off your bar.

 

Sabo is situational useful still to the other class as it doesn't wake targets... and its still a very good dmg skill even later with no upgrades... charged of course makes no sense.

 

I honestly can't think of any skill from the other classes off the top of my head that become completely useless at level 11.

 

I say myself they have changed things to remove one possible source of defense from the AC... so why not look ad doing something to make those 2 forgotten skills do something again... and perhaps add something that is a little lacking in the trees at the same time.

 

My thought is to fold them back into the AC mechanic... which is why I suggested making them Upper Hand Spend abilities and remove the cover requirement from them. Then Tie a high level trait from each tree to the skills in a way that makes them a possible alt rotation. I have always liked that the class was slighly more involved then some of the other 1 2 1 2 1 3 style Classes in this game. If you read through my tree suggestions I think you will see I was thinking of a way to change up the rotation a bit... so we can have more rotation changes depending on the situation. Instead of the rinse repeat most of the trees are now.

[Wainamoinen]

From here maybe?

 

OR maybe here?

 

Are you seriously linking Noxxic as some kind of voice of authority? That because they don't mention an ability we shouldn't use it?

 

They are notoriously wrong about practically everything. Example: stack Accuracy on a PvP Scrapper, righto.

 

Do yourself a favour and delete the bookmark to their site.

 

Sabotage Charge is one of only three hard-hitting abilities Scoundrels have, and they absolutely should use it.

 

To not do so is to deliberately gimp yourself. It'd be like a Smash Mara saying "oh no, I never use Force Scream, because that's a Carnage ability. I just stand around and wait for Smash to come back off cooldown." Sabo Charge is a Smuggler ability, Scoundrels are Smugglers, use it. And so, remove the cover requirement on it if it's decreed cover is going to be a Gunslinger ability instead of one available to all Smugglers.

Edited December 1, 2013 by Wainamoinen

[stormdrakelord]

Are you seriously linking Noxxic as some kind of voice of authority? That because they don't mention an ability we shouldn't use it?

 

They are notoriously wrong about practically everything. Example: stack Accuracy on a PvP DPS Scoundrel, righto.

 

Do yourself a favour and delete the bookmark to their site.

 

Sabotage Charge is one of only three hard-hitting abilities Scoundrels have, and they absolutely should use it.

 

To not do so is to deliberately gimp yourself. It'd be like a Smash Mara saying "oh no, I never use Force Scream, because that's a Carnage ability. I just stand around and wait for Smash to come back off cooldown." Sabo Charge is a Smuggler ability, Scoundrels are Smugglers, use it. And so, remove the cover requirement on it if it's decreed cover is going to be a Gunslinger ability instead of one available to all Smugglers.

 

OR, just force all smugglers to use cover. That would work as well. IF they planned for it to be used outside of cover, they would not have made it a cover ability in the first place. IF you are looking for big numbers at close range, Scoundrel might not be for you.

Edited December 1, 2013 by stormdrakelord

[Husanak]

OR, just force all smugglers to use cover. That would work as well. IF they planned for it to be used outside of cover, they would not have made it a cover ability in the first place. IF you are looking for big numbers at close range, Scoundrel might not be for you.

 

As classes all have passives that give them either more Endurance... or extra procs on skills.

 

Cover in place for Gunslingers gets defense ratings... Blaster whip adds scound upper hand buffs.

 

The entire point of the thread is... they have made changes to cover on the scound saying that it was never there intention for us to use cover once we choose our AC. Which is sort of crazy as I just upgraded my Sabo charged at level 44 on my newest Scoundral. I'm not supposed to use cover but I have skills that require cover how does that make sense... I didn't design it that way they did.

 

IF they want to go with that cool... then design a passive that allows us to NEVER use cover as they say was there intention.

[Wainamoinen]

IF you are looking for big numbers at close range, Scoundrel might not be for you.

 

IF it's all the same, I won't take advice on playing Scoundrel from someone so plainly ignorant of the class.

 

Perhaps you should try learning how to use Sabo Charge effectively. Now THAT is helpful advice.