The REAL Most Powerful Sith Lightsaber Duelists

[LadyKulvax]

Which is why I'm wondering why your heading down that dangerous path of argument i.e. the dismissal of multiple form mastery as an illogical form of arguments. Its not. Krayt may have Niman but the fact remains the Kas'im went out and mastered all seven lightsaber forms.

 

Which leads us to their specialized forms, and I think there is an argument to be made that Kas'im is a superior Jar'Kai/Ataru specialist than Krayt - and he's got a high level mastery of Juyo on top of that.

 

But what makes Krayt subject to this stigma yet the rest are not? this is my point.

[tunewalker]

Which is why I'm wondering why your heading down that dangerous path of argument i.e. the dismissal of multiple form mastery as an illogical form of arguments. Its not. Krayt may have Niman but the fact remains the Kas'im went out and mastered all seven lightsaber forms.

 

Which leads us to their specialized forms, and I think there is an argument to be made that Kas'im is a superior Jar'Kai/Ataru specialist than Krayt - and he's got a high level mastery of Juyo on top of that.

 

I personally still argue that Ulic was possibly better then both he focused entirely on Djem So allowing him to master it to a degree that he could fight blind folded and he could fight on par and challenge Exar Kun. Now Kun got better but I don't really see Kasim or Krayt fighting on par with people so far up the list.

[Beniboybling]

But what makes Krayt subject to this stigma yet the rest are not? this is my point.

Mastery over all seven lightsaber forms > mastery over Niman in my opinion. Unless you take it to a whole knew level like Kun did and go and master Juyo and Ataru as well.

[Beniboybling]

I personally still argue that Ulic was possibly better then both he focused entirely on Djem So allowing him to master it to a degree that he could fight blind folded and he could fight on par and challenge Exar Kun. Now Kun got better but I don't really see Kasim or Krayt fighting on par with people so far up the list.

Here I'd just point to how Bane got dominated by Kas'im - a master Djem So duelist.

 

I think we also need to look at the circumstance surrounding Ulic's duel with Kun.

Edited October 19, 2013 by Beniboybling

[tunewalker]

Here I'd just point to how Bane got dominated by Kas'im - a master Djem So duelist.

 

I think we also need to look at the circumstance surrounding Ulic's duel with Kun.

 

I do not believe Bane is as good as Ulic, and the circumstances has Kun calling Ulic his own equal as a swordsmen. Until then he saw no one as any where near his skill level. We cant deny that. I feel the gap between Kun and Ulic that comes was more do to force power and less do to increase of skill.

[LadyKulvax]

Except Niman is all about Force Power, the more powerful you are the better you are with it.

[Aurbere]

Here I'd just point to how Bane got dominated by Kas'im - a master Djem So duelist.

 

I think we also need to look at the circumstance surrounding Ulic's duel with Kun.

 

As opposed to the circumstances surrounding Bane vs. Kas'im?

 

Really, we should be arguing Bane vs. Krayt.

 

Edit: Don't take this as confrontational.

Edited October 19, 2013 by Aurbere

[Beniboybling]

As opposed to the circumstances surrounding Bane vs. Kas'im?

 

Really, we should be arguing Bane vs. Krayt.

 

Edit: Don't take this as confrontational.

I'd like to see some reasons first, Kas'im is evidently a superior duelist to Bane. I doubt he improved that much.

 

I think in general Kas'im is suffering from Battlemaster-stigma and Old Republic/Drew-stigma, not a good combination.

Edited October 19, 2013 by Beniboybling

[Darkelefantos]

I'd like to see some reasons first, Kas'im is evidently a superior duelist to Bane. I doubt he improved that much.

 

I think in general Kas'im is suffering from Battlemaster-stigma and Old Republic/Drew-stigma, not a good combination.

 

My reaction to the bolded part - "Wait. Battlemaster? Why are they discussing Jedi in the Sith thread? Oh, he means Blademaster... That makes sense..."

Edited October 19, 2013 by Darkelefantos

[Little_Judas]

I may not be able to talk about the skills of some of the Sith mentioned above.

But I do find it strange that the name Tulak Hord isn't posted anywere.

 

In KOTOR II, Darth Traya talks about Hord's swordsmanship:

"If you were to face an ancient Sith Lord in combat, you would learn that we are as children playing with toys compared to the prowess of the old masters."

 

Traya uses plural, so it could be that other ancient Sith lords are also quite powerful compared to Jedi or Sith from at least KOTOR and TOR-eras.

 

Possible counterargument: Most Sith preffered sith swords above the lighsaber.

But my guess is that a master swordsman could wield a saber just as well.

[Beniboybling]

I may not be able to talk about the skills of some of the Sith mentioned above.

But I do find it strange that the name Tulak Hord isn't posted anywere.

 

In KOTOR II, Darth Traya talks about Hord's swordsmanship:

"If you were to face an ancient Sith Lord in combat, you would learn that we are as children playing with toys compared to the prowess of the old masters."

 

Traya uses plural, so it could be that other ancient Sith lords are also quite powerful compared to Jedi or Sith from at least KOTOR and TOR-eras.

 

Possible counterargument: Most Sith preffered sith swords above the lighsaber.

But my guess is that a master swordsman could wield a saber just as well.

And here comes the wise guy.

 

I'm assuming you did not read this in the OP:

 

==================================================

 

NOTE: Again before some wise guys draws our attention to this quote: "If you were to face an ancient Sith Lord in combat, you would learn that we are as children playing with toys compared to the prowess of the old Masters." you should take note that ancient Sith are not been considered for this list due to lack of information. Not that this quote is entirely irrelevant to the skill of lightsaber duelists in the Old Republic era.

 

==================================================

 

Its just down to lack of information, besides this quote we have nothing else to go on.

[Little_Judas]

And here comes the wise guy.

 

I'm assuming you did not read this in the OP:

 

==================================================

 

NOTE: Again before some wise guys draws our attention to this quote: "If you were to face an ancient Sith Lord in combat, you would learn that we are as children playing with toys compared to the prowess of the old Masters." you should take note that ancient Sith are not been considered for this list due to lack of information. Not that this quote is entirely irrelevant to the skill of lightsaber duelists in the Old Republic era.

 

==================================================

 

Its just down to lack of information, besides this quote we have nothing else to go on.

 

I have to confess, I just read OP's list and the comments.

I skipped the note, apparently.

Without, of course, any bad intent.

 

I'm sorry for being a wise guy.

Edited October 19, 2013 by Little_Judas
Apologies

[Beniboybling]

I have to confess, I just read OP's list and the comments.

I skipped the note, apparently.

Without, of course, any bad intent.

 

I'm sorry for being a wise guy.

You are forgiven.

[Aurbere]

I'd like to see some reasons first, Kas'im is evidently a superior duelist to Bane. I doubt he improved that much.

 

I think in general Kas'im is suffering from Battlemaster-stigma and Old Republic/Drew-stigma, not a good combination.

 

You see bias where there is none.

[sell-dog]

I agree with Beni on these two accounts. Both in terms of positioning and possible bias. I mean no disrespect on the later. Perfectly natural to not like some characters. I have probabilistic computations if anyone would like to see my reasoning on the bias factor.

 

On the Traya versus Malgus debate. I'm not an expert on this portion of the SW Timeline but I remember back in the day I hyping up Revan and the like then Aurbree mentioned that the Jedi Order was very depleted at this time due to the wars lead by Kun & Revan/Malak, and then again from the Sith Trio doing their thing. Traya Force Draining 3 Jedi/throwing the Jedi Council, while impressive, isn't a de facto trump card for her is it? After all wasn't this a watered down Jedi Order not like the PT or the one that has had time to rebuild at the start of the Great Galactic War?

 

Also, question I had at the beginning, is Ulic allowed to be on this list or no?

Edited October 20, 2013 by sell-dog

[Allenjzs]

Honestly, I wouldn't have even mentioned any of the movie/original characters simply because they are ******* compared to the likes of Sion, Traya, Nihilus, Malak, etc. But that's simply my opinion. Edited October 20, 2013 by Allenjzs

[Aurbere]

I agree with Beni on these two accounts. Both in terms of positioning and possible bias. I mean no disrespect on the later. Perfectly natural to not like some characters. I have probabilistic computations if anyone would like to see my reasoning on the bias factor.

 

There is no bias. Not from me anyway. The only characters that I do not like are Vitiate and Natasi Daala. Neither of them are here. Not only that, but I don't let my personal opinions get in the way of these kinds of things.

 

Let's stop playing the fanboy/hater cards so we can get back to a more light-hearted discussion.

 

Next on the agenda for this post is Kas'im. The reason I say Bane is because I remember Kas'im pulling out the Ataru variant of Form IV because Bane was overwhelming him. Correct me if I am wrong.

[Aurbere]

Honestly, I wouldn't have even mentioned any of the movie/original characters simply because they are ******* compared to the likes of Sion, Traya, Nihilus, Malak, etc. But that's simply my opinion.

 

I suggest you do some more research.

[sell-dog]

There is no bias. Not from me anyway. The only characters that I do not like are Vitiate and Natasi Daala. Neither of them are here. Not only that, but I don't let my personal opinions get in the way of these kinds of things.

 

Let's stop playing the fanboy/hater cards so we can get back to a more light-hearted discussion.

 

Next on the agenda for this post is Kas'im. The reason I say Bane is because I remember Kas'im pulling out the Ataru variant of Form IV because Bane was overwhelming him. Correct me if I am wrong.

 

I agree that this is not the thread for this discussion and I hope I didn't come off confrontational.

 

On to Kas'im vs Bane. I can find the passage later but I think it says something like Bane opens himself fully to the Force allowing it to flow through him and this is what put Kas'im on the defensive making him switch forms. This is Bane 20 years before prime but is this an example of Bane's (possible) superior skill here or an example of Bane's superior overall Force Power?

[sell-dog]

Honestly, I wouldn't have even mentioned any of the movie/original characters simply because they are ******* compared to the likes of Sion, Traya, Nihilus, Malak, etc. But that's simply my opinion.

 

You bring up EU characters but it seems you haven't see any EU material on movie characters. While I personally like TOR era timeline better, the movie era characters are definitely no joke.

[Beniboybling]

I agree with Beni on these two accounts. Both in terms of positioning and possible bias. I mean no disrespect on the later. Perfectly natural to not like some characters. I have probabilistic computations if anyone would like to see my reasoning on the bias factor.

 

On the Traya versus Malgus debate. I'm not an expert on this portion of the SW Timeline but I remember back in the day I hyping up Revan and the like then Aurbree mentioned that the Jedi Order was very depleted at this time due to the wars lead by Kun & Revan/Malak, and then again from the Sith Trio doing their thing. Traya Force Draining 3 Jedi/throwing the Jedi Council, while impressive, isn't a de facto trump card for her is it? After all wasn't this a watered down Jedi Order not like the PT or the one that has had time to rebuild at the start of the Great Galactic War?

 

Also, question I had at the beginning, is Ulic allowed to be on this list or no?

The Order in question may not have been the strongest of the Old Republic era, but there is no evidence to suggest that they were at all weak. After the Exar Kun War the Jedi Order's training practices underwent evolution and improvement - so one would assume the students would be stronger. In fact I don't think there is any grounds for arguing that any particular Jedi Order was weaker in terms of Force ability than any other. The idea that some eras produced less Force potential than others just doesn't make logical sense.

 

Regardless, we are missing the point here. What is important is that Force drain is an ability that requires immense amounts of raw power, and performing an attack on that magnitude is therefore an incredible display of raw power. However I feel what is more important is Traya's total dominance over Darth Sion who regardless of the strength of the current Order was incredibly strong.

 

Whereas Malgus has shown himself incapable of dominating Force users who we would assume are weaker than Sion. I don't want to impose my opinions on everybody but that seems a pretty clear indication for me.

 

I mean surely if Malgus was really more powerful than Traya he would have wiped the floor with Zallow's apprentice? Traya most certainly would have, she would have tossed her about like a ragdoll.

[Beniboybling]

You see bias where there is none.

[Aurbere]

The Order in question may not have been the strongest of the Old Republic era, but there is no evidence to suggest that they were at all weak. After the Exar Kun War the Jedi Order's training practices underwent evolution and improvement - so one would assume the students would be stronger. In fact I don't think there is any grounds for arguing that any particular Jedi Order was weaker in terms of Force ability than any other. The idea that some eras produced less Force potential than others just doesn't make logical sense.

 

Regardless, we are missing the point here. What is important is that Force drain is an ability that requires immense amounts of raw power, and performing an attack on that magnitude is therefore an incredible display of raw power. However I feel what is more important is Traya's total dominance over Darth Sion who regardless of the strength of the current Order was incredibly strong.

 

Whereas Malgus has shown himself incapable of dominating Force users who we would assume are weaker than Sion. I don't want to impose my opinions on everybody but that seems a pretty clear indication for me.

 

I mean surely if Malgus was really more powerful than Traya he would have wiped the floor with Zallow's apprentice? Traya most certainly would have, she would have tossed her about like a ragdoll.

 

I'll skip past the part about the Jedi Order simply because the evidence suggests that the post-Great Sith War Jedi Order was weaker.

 

But that doesn't really matter. Force Draining three Jedi Masters without showing any signs of weakness (difficult to judge because of game mecahnics) is very impressive.

[Makoto_Shishio]

Regardless, we are missing the point here. What is important is that Force drain is an ability that requires immense amounts of raw power, and performing an attack on that magnitude is therefore an incredible display of raw power. However I feel what is more important is Traya's total dominance over Darth Sion who regardless of the strength of the current Order was incredibly strong.

Since when is draining three Jeid masters ever impressive? A weakling like Alema keto was able to summon sith sorcery on a level that consumed half the republic fleet yet be a terrible combatant.

 

I mean surely if Malgus was really more powerful than Traya he would have wiped the floor with Zallow's apprentice? Traya most certainly would have, she would have tossed her about like a ragdoll.

And Traya was taken out by a single force push before getting her powers stripped off..... Malgus has effectively proven that he is the superior combatant both in the force and in lightsaber combat.

 

Really, what combat feats we have seen from Traya? We know jack about her lightsaber skills, she has never demonstrated the ability to move as fast as Malgus, heck all she really have on her is her force drain which wouldn't be so effective on a powerful combatant. The stronger the force user, the greater his resistance to attacks are.

Edited October 21, 2013 by Makoto_Shishio

[wrnfkbsdgfbdsgb]

Darth Nihilus has to be one. He is not only a wound in the force but, his power is so great in the dark side, it is said his very speech weakens and can kill, and all around him become slaves to his will. We are talking about someone who drained an entite planet of life with one power. He could obviously duel well, he wouldnt have made it to Dark Lord in he couldnt, but the point is he could kill most before they even come close to him as his very aura is death. He won a battle or War without fighting. While this may not be eaborate or imaginative, it is a masterful representation of the art of War and achieves its zenith: to defeat an enemy without fighting.