The BattleZone! Round 1 Match 16: Exar Kun vs. Darth Krayt

[Aurbere]

I think Beni brings up a good point about Kun being able to react quick enough to defend against Krayt's attacks (Dark Transfer or otherwise). So let me pose a question to you Rayla (since you know all things Exar Kun): how quickly can Kun react and then put up a defense? I assume a good comparison would be to use Keto's Force Blast, yes? Edited November 5, 2013 by Aurbere

[LadyKulvax]

I do however believe Exar Kun far and beyond has the better Force Barriers here, the only times his Force Barriers have been successfully surpassed were via the spirit of Freedon Nadd, a Sith spirit of great power and the other time was from Odan-Urr, who is listed as having one of the most well developed and honed connections to the Force that a Jedi has had in the Old Sith Wars, he spent a thousand years preparing to battle the Dark Side and according to Master Vandar he was one of the most powerful Jedi in the Order's history up to his time..

 

Beyond this, Kun tanked a Force Push at almost point-blank from Ulic and it barely nudged him backwards.

 

But yes absorbing Keto's Blast was likely the quickest reaction we've seen.

Edited November 5, 2013 by LadyKulvax

[Beniboybling]

Dawn of the Jedi clarified that any 'healing' ability is based on Alchemy or the transfiguration of life which is Sorcery, Force Healing is not natural and is the sole Dark Side ability that Jedi are not corrupted by, the ability to use the Light Side of the Force and Dark Side of the Force to use said ability does not make it an exception to this rule, which itself is cleared up by, again, Dawn of the Jedi.

 

And how do we even know that Shatterpoint can be used in this way by Krayt? he certainly didn't use the ability in combat, there is a considerable leap of faith going on here that Krayt could not only use it in combat but also effectively enough to take Kun down or out, look at Traya, did we see her specifically use it in combat? nope, did she use it to predict future events, etc...? I imagine so, look at Windu, the sole time he ever had a Shatterpoint that reflected the future of the galaxy, was when he was right in the middle of what the RotS novel describes as 'the largest Shatterpoint in the history of the galaxy', beyond that he only ever managed to use it significantly in combat.

 

Force Blast can be used in varying degrees and we have gone over and over and over with the Aleema Keto scene, I have told you why she could just barely stop it from completely killing and we know as a matter of fact that Kun use it instantaneously that time because Aleema barely acknowledge what he was doing before he did it.

 

Kun's maximum impact Force Blast devastated the spirit of Freedon Nadd and almost collapsed the tomb around him, in effect it was an AoE blast that destroyed an area, not one directed beam.

It seems like Dark Transfer has a very tenuous connection to Sith Sorcery... especially given that Dark Transfer isn't strictly a healing ability. I'm also not sure we can say Force Healing is Sith Sorcery when it is simply based on alchemy. After all not every healer also has an affinity with Sorcery.

 

Perhaps we can claim that Dark Transfer derives itself from Sith Sorcery, but I expect its too far evolved to actual label it as such. Especially given the fact that the writers never labelled it as this.

 

Regarding shatterpoint, I'm really not sure where this idea came from that there are certain 'versions' of it as this has been nowhere stated. As far as we are aware shatterpoint is an ability that allows you to see fractures in the world around you, why should people or Exar Kun be an exception to this rule? No distinction has been made, so lets not make one. Instead let's focus on what we do know, and that is that Shatterpoint can be used to see cracks in opponents. Cade Skywalker was especially proficient in, of whom Krayt's abilities are supposed to replicate.

 

Did Traya specifically use it in combat? Well if we take into account the fact that in the DS path she immediately recognizes the weaknesses in the Jedi Master's fighting styles much to their astonishment I'd say yes. But again no distinction has been made so we shouldn't make one up.

 

And for the record, Windu saw many fractures outside of combat e.g. in Dooku, Anakin and in Sidious.

 

As for the Aleema Keto scene, I'm only brining this back up because you claimed Kun could create some sort of devastating Force Bomb by absorbing Krayt's power. I don't think he's capable of that, he could therefore dodge.

[Beniboybling]

Beyond this, Kun tanked a Force Push at almost point-blank from Ulic and it barely nudged him backwards.

 

But yes absorbing Keto's Blast was likely the quickest reaction we've seen.

Force Barriers = Force Power. All this shows is Kun is considerably more powerful than Ulic, which is fairly obvious.

[Beniboybling]

I think Beni brings up a good point about Kun being able to react quick enough to defend against Krayt's attacks (Dark Transfer or otherwise). So let me pose a question to you Rayla (since you know all things Exar Kun): how quickly can Kun react and then put up a defense? I assume a good comparison would be to use Keto's Force Blast, yes?

I think we should probably consider Kun's arrogance as well in the first instance. In general Kun is more likely to mock his enemies before attacking them, which only gives Krayt more time.

 

Just as a general point.

 

As for Kun's reactions, lightning is very hard to dodge. Its a case of if you are not already prepared, you're going to be hit. For example here, Satele simply wouldn't have been capable of blocking with her lightsaber - her guard was already down. And with shatterpoint Krayt will ensure he strikes when Kun's guard is down. Indeed if Kun does try the whole Force Flight impaling leap thing he'll most certainly be hit if Krayt has any strength left in him.

 

And really it just seems unlikely Kun can one-shot Krayt with a Force Blast.

[LadyKulvax]

As for the Aleema Keto scene, I'm only brining this back up because you claimed Kun could create some sort of devastating Force Bomb by absorbing Krayt's power. I don't think he's capable of that, he could therefore dodge.

 

The rest of your post I guess we're going to have to agree to disagree with, but you are saying that a canonical scene is outright wrong? it is made very clear that Kun's Force Blasts vary in power, it depends on how powerful he wants them or more commonly if he's be flung into a rage, I have told you repeatedly why Keto was only knocked comatose instead of dying, but it's also clear that he spent no time channelling his Force Blast and instead pulled a Revan, absorbing and redirecting Keto's own blast.

 

Now here is a simple fact, he destroyed Nadd's spirit and the entire area of that Tomb with his Force Blast, this is clearly the Force Blast at it's maximum power.

 

It should also be noted that Kun's other powers will come into effect here, he has the ability to smash straight through the Force Barriers of even powerful Jedi Masters, all listed as seriously powerful Force Users, Krayt's own Force Barriers are very average, even a senior Imperial Knight could put him down hard with a Force Push, Kun? he'd devastate Krayt's barely above average Force Barriers and it will be an advantage that Kun will use time and again, it is clear he has a proficiency for bypassing the Barriers of other's with ease and the time he used Force Wound to kill Urr is evidence that he only kept getting better.

 

Also, what about Deadly Sight, this was clearly an ability that even as a Sith Spirit could disintegrate Jedi Knights with raw power as strong as Gantoris, who knows how strong he was with this ability when he was corporeal, I think we need to take this point into some serious consideration: Kun's power curve was absolutely insane, he went from a Jedi that could just about beat Baas, to one of the most powerful Sith Lords in the history of it's order and it took him about a year.

 

I think we need to consider that in his last moments, even before he absorbed the Massassi, Kun got far more powerful and so did the abilities he'd used earlier on, it states in the canon that Kun's power reached whole new magnitudes by the time of Ossus' destruction and we can only assume that Kun's ability to use his powers and the magnitude of them did as well.

[Beniboybling]

The rest of your post I guess we're going to have to agree to disagree with, but you are saying that a canonical scene is outright wrong? it is made very clear that Kun's Force Blasts vary in power, it depends on how powerful he wants them or more commonly if he's be flung into a rage, I have told you repeatedly why Keto was only knocked comatose instead of dying, but it's also clear that he spent no time channelling his Force Blast and instead pulled a Revan, absorbing and redirecting Keto's own blast.

 

Now here is a simple fact, he destroyed Nadd's spirit and the entire area of that Tomb with his Force Blast, this is clearly the Force Blast at it's maximum power.

 

It should also be noted that Kun's other powers will come into effect here, he has the ability to smash straight through the Force Barriers of even powerful Jedi Masters, all listed as seriously powerful Force Users, Krayt's own Force Barriers are very average, even a senior Imperial Knight could put him down hard with a Force Push, Kun? he'd devastate Krayt's barely above average Force Barriers and it will be an advantage that Kun will use time and again, it is clear he has a proficiency for bypassing the Barriers of other's with ease and the time he used Force Wound to kill Urr is evidence that he only kept getting better.

 

Also, what about Deadly Sight, this was clearly an ability that even as a Sith Spirit could disintegrate Jedi Knights with raw power as strong as Gantoris, who knows how strong he was with this ability when he was corporeal, I think we need to take this point into some serious consideration: Kun's power curve was absolutely insane, he went from a Jedi that could just about beat Baas, to one of the most powerful Sith Lords in the history of it's order and it took him about a year.

 

I think we need to consider that in his last moments, even before he absorbed the Massassi, Kun got far more powerful and so did the abilities he'd used earlier on, it states in the canon that Kun's power reached whole new magnitudes by the time of Ossus' destruction and we can only assume that Kun's ability to use his powers and the magnitude of them did as well.

I'm not disputing any canon (though surely if he destroyed the entire area it would have, well, collapsed) I'm saying that after absorbing the power of another and following up with an insta attack he can't create some giant explosion (though I'd still question that as no source seems to make mention of this) perhaps in the midst of a dark side nexus, or with enough time to charge. But clearly not off the bat else Keto would likely be dead. Shield or no shield.

 

And again, Force Barriers = Force Power. So essentially you are saying Krayt is an average Force User. I find it hard to believe he was smacked down by some Imperial Knight when he happily slaughtered dozens of them. Claiming that a Sith Lord, the most powerful Sith Lord of his entire era, of whose presence was felt across the galaxy, would be slapped about like a ragdoll seems absorb to me.

 

As for deadly sight, I'm not sure we are considering Kun's spirit powers. But regardless for the same reasons as above I doubt it would have any effect. Kun would have to be considerably, if not vastly, more powerful than Krayt to pull that off - or he'd have just laser eyes just about anyone he came across without a fight.

 

That is if it was deadly sight, Force powers from Sith Spirits can't be categorized in 'mortal' terms.

 

And you might need some more evidence for that last part, given the sheer amount of conflicting sources.

Edited November 5, 2013 by Beniboybling

[Darkelefantos]

Claiming that a Sith Lord, the most powerful Sith Lord who ever existed

 

I'm not going to reply to the rest of your post, simply because Exar Kun is not my area of expertise, but surely, when writing this, you weren't talking about Krayt, were you? I mean, in which dimension is Krayt the most powerful Sith Lord who ever existed?

[Beniboybling]

I'm not going to reply to the rest of your post, simply because Exar Kun is not my area of expertise, but surely, when writing this, you weren't talking about Krayt, were you? I mean, in which dimension is Krayt the most powerful Sith Lord who ever existed?

Oops. I mean most powerful of his era.

 

LOL, I'm not a fanboy... promise.

[Darkelefantos]

Oops. I mean most powerful of his era.

 

LOL, I'm not a fanboy... promise.

 

Fine. You shall be forgiven. This time.

 

On a different note, I find it hard not to like the Krayt character. He was made out to be pretty powerful by the writers, without making him go completely over the top. But alas, this debate is not exactly a matter of personal preference. Well, granted I assume Aurbere is a fair judge.

[Aurbere]

Also, what about Deadly Sight, this was clearly an ability that even as a Sith Spirit could disintegrate Jedi Knights with raw power as strong as Gantoris, who knows how strong he was with this ability when he was corporeal, I think we need to take this point into some serious consideration: Kun's power curve was absolutely insane, he went from a Jedi that could just about beat Baas, to one of the most powerful Sith Lords in the history of it's order and it took him about a year.

 

I do not believe we will consider Deadly Sight. Simply because I do not believe that he could use this pre-ritual. But I could be persuaded to think otherwise if there is evidence to suggest that he can.

[Aurbere]

Alright, I'm going to make the final decision soon. Any final remarks?

[Beniboybling]

Alright, I'm going to make the final decision soon. Any final remarks?

Krayt wins.

 

Oh and I am planning on making an official reentry into the forums. Hoping I won't be so busy over the next few weeks.

[Selenial]

Krayt wins.

 

Oh and I am planning on making an official reentry into the forums. Hoping I won't be so busy over the next few weeks.

 

Unless this "official re-entry" is calling the Kaggath, no one cares

Edited November 9, 2013 by Selenial

[XSUPREMESKILLZX]

about physical strength, it is forgotten that Kun has smashed a Holocron with his bare hands.

[Aurbere]

Unless this "official re-entry" is calling the Kaggath, no one cares

 

Hope Beni has some aloe vera handy.

[Aurbere]

about physical strength, it is forgotten that Kun has smashed a Holocron with his bare hands.

 

Not forgotten. Just didn't feel the need to put it down.

[XSUPREMESKILLZX]

Anyways, I nominate Exar Kun as teh winner.

[Bird_of_Thunder]

Anyways, I nominate Exar Kun as teh winner.

 

Seconded

[LadyKulvax]

Anyways, I nominate Exar Kun as teh winner.

 

Not entirely sure majority opinion is factored into this, but I agree, Exar Kun wins.

[XSUPREMESKILLZX]

Exar's simply more skilled and powerful. Sure Krayt's got dark transfer, but how can one expect Krayt to grab Kun while Kun has his force blasts? Also, has Krayt ever actually used shatterpoint in a combative situation?

[Aurbere]

Majority opinion is not factored into the final decision. Though it certainly helps. Edited November 9, 2013 by Aurbere

[Selenial]

Majority opinion is not factored into the final decision. Though it certainly helps.

 

That is rather contradictory...

 

[Aurbere]

That is rather contradictory...

 

 

Mind games!

[Aurbere]

Alright, debaters and spectators, here is the final decision.

 

 

Darth Krayt confronted Exar Kun in the Iron Citadel, charging Kun with his twin blades. Exar Kun defended with a single blade and put up a formidable defense, and this was only the beginning. He pulled out the first of his many tricks, activating the second end of his lightsaber. Krayt quickly reacted to the switch and continued his ferocious attack. The tide quickly turned when Exar Kun used the special features of his lightsaber to shorten the blade, causing Krayt's attack to fall through.

 

Exar Kun seized the advantage and put the Emperor on the defensive. Exar Kun's offense was just as brutal and incredibly unpredictable, pushing Krayt's defenses to the limit. A brutal strike knocked Krayt's off-hand weapon away. Krayt grew desperate, he couldn't continue a lightsaber duel any longer. The two Sith Lords locked blades, and Krayt took the opportunity to unleash a powerful blast of Force lightning from his off-hand.

 

The blast broke the duel and sent Kun flying, but the younger Sith Lord quickly recovered and unleashed a Force Wave that knocked Krayt off his feet. An impressive display of Force prowess ensued. Both Sith Lords attempting to overwhelm the other through sheer Force ability. Krayt's Force lightning was incapable of penetrating Kun's defenses, and Krayt used the Citadel's interior to avoid the more powerful Sith Lord's blasts of pure dark side energy.

 

Kun pursued Krayt through the Citadel, using his Force attacks to keep Krayt from attacking and hoping to corner Krayt. As their Force based engagement returned to the Central Chamber, Krayt ambushed Kun with a burst of Force lightning that stunned the younger Sith. Krayt activated his lightsaber and moved in for the kill, but before he could deliver the final blow, Kun unleashed blasted Krayt with his most powerful Force Wave.

 

Exar Kun recovered and gathered his energies, letting the dark side swell within him. Krayt felt the energy Kun was gathering and saw that his only chance was to use Dark Transfer. But before his attack could be made, Exar Kun unleashed his most powerful Force Blast in an uncontrolled explosion of dark side energy. The blast consumed the chamber, utterly annihilating everything within, save one man: Exar Kun.

 

Exar Kun is the winner.

 

 

Thoughts and Conclusions:

 

 

This was a very difficult decision to make. Darth Krayt was certainly more than capable of holding his own in a lightsaber duel with Exar Kun, but Kun's unpredictable fighting style and lightsaber functions made a victory for Krayt in lightsaber combat unlikely. Thus it came down to a Force battle. The question in this case was: Who can hit the other with their killing attacks first? In the end, Exar Kun's immense Force power proved too much for Krayt. Though Krayt was certainly powerful enough to hold his own in a Force battle, and even seemed to gain the upper hand in the end, Exar Kun's raw power overwhelmed Krayt.

 

 

And so Round 1 comes to an end. A few updates will be posted in the home thread shortly.