Jedi Guardian Changes - Game Update 2.5

[AndrewanCyabos]

Okay, there have been a lot of good suggestions both here and the Jugg forums. I've been compiling everything I can get and heres what I have so far.

 

Set Bonus Recommendation:

 

(2) Increase Master Strike Damage by 10%

(4) Reduces the channel time of Ravage/Master Strike by 1.5

Vigilance:

 

Utility Addition (New Skill)

Guardians Favor-The Guardian Focuses the Force on one target Player,increasing all damage and healing done by 5%, while also reducing all damage taken and threat generated by 5% for both the Guardian and his ally. Range is 20 meters, only one player may have Guardian's Favor on at any given time. This ability can be used even if the Guardian is under the effects of another players Guard.

(This way it makes a lot of sense to pair your Guardian DPS with his MDPS counterpart, regardless of what class they are, so in the most common scenario of a Sentinel and Guardian pounding their enemies both players would be able to push their DPS harder. And considering in this scenario both of these players would have Guard (Tank guards JG, JG melds with sent) this virtually guarantees that these DPS will not pull Aggro. However on battles like Op IX where it is more beneficial to give Guard to healers, the tanks don't have to worry as much about swapping guards back to DPS after the phase change.)

 

Current Talent Tree Changes (Names are not set in stone, if something works better namewise-call it what you will. The Effect is the important part.)

 

NOTE:Assumes that all talents have max points allocated to them. If it is unmentioned, then the talent remains as is.

 

Zen Strike 3/3: Overhead Slash, Plasma Brand generate 1 stack of Zen Strike, which reduces the Master Strike Cooldown time by 5 seconds. Stacks up to 3 times to a maximum of a 15 second Master Strike cooldown reduction, the stack is not consumed on activation. Master Strike also has a 30 percent chance to proc Zen Master, which grants 25 percent armor penetration for your next Master Strike. The Zen Master effect can only occur every 20 seconds.

 

(This to me is the best thing they can do for us. Take RNG completely out of it. Vigilance should be a sustained damage class. So let us ramp up and keep going.)

 

Accuracy 3/3: Increase Melee and Force Accuracy by 9%. (3%,9%,6%)

[With this, I believe we would effectively get our Surge boost some posters have asked for by being able to put more points of it in our gear.]

 

Sundering Throw 2/2: Reduces the required range for Saber Throw to 0 meters and lowers its cool down by 5 seconds. Additionally, Saber throw has a 100% chance to apply armor reduction to the target

 

Plasma Brand 1/1: CD: 9 seconds. Engulfs your lightsaber in firey plasma, striking the target for (current Weapon) WEAPON(so it hits harder up front) damage and dealing an extra (current weapon) elemental damage over 9 seconds.

 

Shien Form 1/1: Increases all damage dealt by 6 percent as well as supplying a 15 percent passive in combat speed boost

 

Perseverance 2/2: Increases your Strength to (4.5%,9%)

 

Gather Focus: Generates 1 focus when taking area of effect damage. Also, when taking are of effect damage the guardian increases the damage of the next master strike by (3%,6%) while in shien form, stacks twice

 

(Provided Focused Defense is fixed)Commanding Awe 2/2: Reduces damage taken by (2%,4%) at all times and Focused Defense grants (10%,20%) damage reduction and cleanses movement impairing effects.

 

Keening 3/3: Master Strike and your burning damage has a (10%,20%,30%) chance to trigger keening making your next Dispatch free and allowing Dispatch to be used on a target with any HP level within (10,20,30)m, in addition Keening increases the damage dealt by your burning effects by 12 percent (Up from 9)

 

Effulence 1/1: Force Sweep no longer costs focus. Additionally, all friendly targets within the target area will be healed for 10% of the total damage caused by Force Sweep.

 

Unremitting- Acts as normal. Lowers the required range of Force Leap by 10 meters and gives the target a debuff to heals received

 

Force Rush-Overhead Slash and Plasma Brand have a chance to grant Force Rush, which increases Blade Storm Critical Chance by 100 percent and increases Dispatch Critical Chance by 25%. This Buff is not consumed on use. Lasts 15 seconds. Stacks once.

 

Upon just reading this it might seem as the class would be OP if all the changes are implemented, but it would not. Especially considering the buff being given to Sents/slingers in 2.5 vanguards in 2.4 etc etc. This would bring us in line provided the numbers are worked properly. The chief problem with PB is it does "elemental damage" up front, which is not based on our primary attribute as far as I know.

Edited October 31, 2013 by AndrewanCyabos

[Hell_Kaiser_Fett]

Okay, there have been a lot of good suggestions both here and the Jugg forums. I've been compiling everything I can get and heres what I have so far.

 

Set Bonus Recommendation:

 

(2) Increase Master Strike Damage by 10%

(4) Reduces the channel time of Ravage/Master Strike by 1.5

Vigilance:

 

Utility Addition (New Skill)

Guardians Favor-The Guardian Focuses the Force on one target Player,increasing all damage and healing done by 5%, while also reducing all damage taken and threat generated by 5% for both the Guardian and his ally. Range is 20 meters, only one player may have Guardian's Favor on at any given time. This ability can be used even if the Guardian is under the effects of another players Guard.

(This way it makes a lot of sense to pair your Guardian DPS with his MDPS counterpart, regardless of what class they are, so in the most common scenario of a Sentinel and Guardian pounding their enemies both players would be able to push their DPS harder. And considering in this scenario both of these players would have Guard (Tank guards JG, JG melds with sent) this virtually guarantees that these DPS will not pull Aggro. However on battles like Op IX where it is more beneficial to give Guard to healers, the tanks don't have to worry as much about swapping guards back to DPS after the phase change.)

 

Current Talent Tree Changes (Names are not set in stone, if something works better namewise-call it what you will. The Effect is the important part.)

 

NOTE:Assumes that all talents have max points allocated to them. If it is unmentioned, then the talent remains as is.

 

Zen Strike 3/3: Overhead Slash, Plasma Brand generate 1 stack of Zen Strike, which reduces the Master Strike Cooldown time by 5 seconds. Stacks up to 3 times to a maximum of a 15 second Master Strike cooldown reduction, the stack is not consumed on activation. Master Strike also has a 30 percent chance to proc Zen Master, which grants 25 percent armor penetration for your next Master Strike. The Zen Master effect can only occur every 20 seconds.

 

(This to me is the best thing they can do for us. Take RNG completely out of it. Vigilance should be a sustained damage class. So let us ramp up and keep going.)

 

Accuracy 3/3: Increase Melee and Force Accuracy by 9%. (3%,9%,6%)

[With this, I believe we would effectively get our Surge boost some posters have asked for by being able to put more points of it in our gear.]

 

Sundering Throw 2/2: Reduces the required range for Saber Throw to 0 meters and lowers its cool down by 5 seconds. Additionally, Saber throw has a 100% chance to apply armor reduction to the target

 

Plasma Brand 1/1: CD: 9 seconds. Engulfs your lightsaber in firey plasma, striking the target for (current Weapon) WEAPON(so it hits harder up front) damage and dealing an extra (current weapon) elemental damage over 9 seconds.

 

Shien Form 1/1: Increases all damage dealt by 6 percent as well as supplying a 15 percent passive in combat speed boost

 

Perseverance 2/2: Increases your Strength to (4.5%,9%)

 

Gather Focus: Generates 1 focus when taking area of effect damage. Also, when taking are of effect damage the guardian increases the damage of the next master strike by (3%,6%) while in shien form, stacks twice

 

(Provided Focused Defense is fixed)Commanding Awe 2/2: Reduces damage taken by (2%,4%) at all times and Focused Defense grants (10%,20%) damage reduction and cleanses movement impairing effects.

 

Keening 3/3: Master Strike and your burning damage has a (10%,20%,30%) chance to trigger keening making your next Dispatch free and allowing Dispatch to be used on a target with any HP level within (10,20,30)m, in addition Keening increases the damage dealt by your burning effects by 12 percent (Up from 9)

 

Effulence 1/1: Force Sweep no longer costs focus. Additionally, all friendly targets within the target area will be healed for 10% of the total damage caused by Force Sweep.

 

Unremitting- Acts as normal. Lowers the required range of Force Leap by 10 meters and gives the target a debuff to heals received

 

Force Rush-Overhead Slash and Plasma Brand have a chance to grant Force Rush, which increases Blade Storm Critical Chance by 100 percent and increases Dispatch Critical Chance by 25%. This Buff is not consumed on use. Lasts 15 seconds. Stacks once.

 

Upon just reading this it might seem as the class would be OP if all the changes are implemented, but it would not. Especially considering the buff being given to Sents/slingers in 2.5 vanguards in 2.4 etc etc. This would bring us in line provided the numbers are worked properly. The chief problem with PB is it does "elemental damage" up front, which is not based on our primary attribute as far as I know.

 

I like a lot of your ideas, but do you really think Bioware would give us anywhere near that much? It would be nice, but I don't think it's very plausible. :/

[ArenCordial]

Did you read any of the posts I've left here? I've left quite a few. First of all, that's not a self heal. it clearly says other allies. Like, those near you, or those in your group. It's not massive, but it isn't small either and could be the difference between life and death, etc etc.

Again how is this really useful? If you're looking to bring in utility no ones going to take a Guardian because of gee they have some heals on Sweep. Besides if most of the ops is ranged you aren't going to be hitting that many of your allies. Unless you want there to be no range on it. In that case it sounds like you want us to be like Watchman with some light utility heals. That's not really going to change anything for the spec so I don't think its worth spending the time coding. The Guardian needs utility where it makes a large enough difference to say, 'hey maybe we should bring the Guardian over another Slinger.' Of course the dps difference needs to be addressed as well or utility won't matter.

Second,

 

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Form_V:_Shien_/_Djem_So

 

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Form_III:_Soresu

 

Shien = Using attacks against an enemy, just happens to work well against blaster bolts but was intended for everything, hence the refinement of the Djem So.

 

Soresu = Best defensive form possible but works absolute best against blasters since that's what it was developed for.

So you repost the same link I gave you? Yes, Soresu is the defensive minded form, Shien was built around the concept that Soresu was too defensive and the form sought to turn an enemy's firepower against themselves. Hence why they focused on trying to become the master of redirecting blaster shots back at their attacks not just deflecting them. Redirection is different from deflection. Which brings me back to my point that lore would support Shien getting some advantage with Saber Redirect. Does Vigilance the spec absolutely need it? No, but my point is the lore does lend itself to the idea.

Tell me how a slow on Plasmabrand in PvE will fix the current situation for PvE problems, i.e the RNG Addiction/Dependency and lack of damage and utility when compared to other classes of similar make. Tell me, I'm curious to know, because as far as I can tell I see no Resource Issue with building and using Focus in a proper and not-starved manner, and I can pull out 2300-2800 DPS in Hardmodes depending on my proc rate and mobility issues.

To turn what you said earlier back on you. Did you read any of my other posts? Its clearly a PvP QoL idea, not a PvE one? I'd be next to useless in PvE, just like Debilitate. My point again, is that Debilitate is mostly a patch and that doesn't address the PvE side of things. I think its dumb Focus spec gets a second jump, a slow into the rotation, and a free cost Freezing Force when its very hard to kite in the first place. Vig otoh is much easier to kite gets no slow. My point again is they could put a slow on Plasma Brand to handle some of Vig's kiting issues in PvP between that and the movement speed increase anyone should be able to stay on target, then address the mobility issues surrounding Master Strike which affects both realms of play.

Edited October 31, 2013 by ArenCordial

[ArenCordial]

Okay, there have been a lot of good suggestions both here and the Jugg forums. I've been compiling everything I can get and heres what I have so far.

 

I put a few critiques on some of the suggestions below to give you some food for thought.

 

Set Bonus Recommendation:

 

(2) Increase Master Strike Damage by 10%

(4) Reduces the channel time of Ravage/Master Strike by 1.5

No sure I'm totally for this as its really only Vigilance taken into consideration. Sure Focus would also benefit and its better than the bonus to Bladestorm, but it just seems a little too directed at Vig because both bonus are directed at the same power, Vig's cornerstone.

 

Accuracy 3/3: Increase Melee and Force Accuracy by 9%. (3%,9%,6%)

[With this, I believe we would effectively get our Surge boost some posters have asked for by being able to put more points of it in our gear.]

So with the legacy bonus you'd be at 100% accuracy without a piece of accuracy gear? That's way overboard. Not to mention how long it would take to be BIS.

 

Plasma Brand 1/1: CD: 9 seconds. Engulfs your lightsaber in firey plasma, striking the target for (current Weapon) WEAPON(so it hits harder up front) damage and dealing an extra (current weapon) elemental damage over 9 seconds.

Why change the damage type? Elemental damage is superior to white damage. If you want to up the frontloaded damage just say that, changing damage types would be the opposite of your intent.

 

Perseverance 2/2: Increases your Strength to (4.5%,9%)

9% Str would be nice, but not sure I'm in favor of how this breaks the 3% per point mold of similar talents.

 

(Provided Focused Defense is fixed)Commanding Awe 2/2: Reduces damage taken by (2%,4%) at all times and Focused Defense grants (10%,20%) damage reduction and cleanses movement impairing effects.

 

Keening 3/3: Master Strike and your burning damage has a (10%,20%,30%) chance to trigger keening making your next Dispatch free and allowing Dispatch to be used on a target with any HP level within (10,20,30)m, in addition Keening increases the damage dealt by your burning effects by 12 percent (Up from 9)

 

I like

 

Upon just reading this it might seem as the class would be OP if all the changes are implemented, but it would not. Especially considering the buff being given to Sents/slingers in 2.5 vanguards in 2.4 etc etc. This would bring us in line provided the numbers are worked properly.

 

All of this together would be OP. Some of the suggestions are good, all would create problems.

Edited October 31, 2013 by ArenCordial

[Riivan]

Shadows concerned about Shield, and get +15% shield from Kinetic Ward.

Vanguards concerned about Absorb and get +25% absorb from Energy blast.

Giuardians concerning about Defence (lore-wise, Soresu saber form is the best form for deflecting ranged blaster fire), but get only +5% defence from Blade barricade. Its ridiculous and must be changed. It must be +20-25% defence rating, according other tanks and according lore of Soresu form.

 

Defense (it has an S people, come on) is not a 1 to 1 with Shield and Absorb. You can't give the same percentage amount. If you wanted to, you could bump up blade barricade to give 6 or 8 with 2 points in it. Aside from that not a whole lot needs changing with defense.

 

What you said. heh

 

Aren and I are kind of in agreement on most of this stuff.

 

The set bonuses are too Vigi-centric and both apply to the same skill which means we get 0 bonus if we can't use the skill at all which happens. I'd prefer a more balanced approach.

 

The utility is a nice idea, but it needs a lot of work as it is. Right now it is incredibly clunky and imbalanced. It can't include dmg/heal, reduce dmg taken and reduce threat. That's just too much. Plus it makes part of tanking kind of trivial if you don't have to worry about threat. I would rather something else, something more defensive like an aoe shout/Rallying Call that lasts as long as Inspiration that reduces dmg taken or inc healing received. Put it on the same or similar timer as the Slinger Shield.

 

Accuracy change is far too much. You could make a case for 6, but 9 is just far too much especially with our gear now.

 

The Shien thing is the same as it is now, I am not sure why it is listed.

 

Perseverance is acceptable, but we could probably make gains elsewhere.

 

I'm ok with Focused Defense as it stands now, but 20% and removing movement impairing effects doesn't seem too OP.

 

The keening change is alright but I'd rather they just increase our dots dmg and leave it as is. Also no increased range. 30m execute is kind of ridiculous, I could see 15m since you're chuckin that saber with righteous fury.

 

Gonna say a big no on the heal with force sweep. Just doesn't fit.

 

Unremitting you'd have to change this up since that'd give guards 20% dmg reduction ever 12 seconds in addition to all those other benefits. You'll need to think on this one.

 

Force Rush. I don't like this change just because it makes crit (should they fix it) even more worthless.

 

And I entirely agree that this would make us sort of OP. It also makes us way too reliant on Master Strike when really we should become less reliant on it. There are two ways as I see it to fix our dps woes. One is to buff MS within an inch of its life, the other is to boost our other 3 skills. I'd prefer a boost to 3 of our skills rather than the one.

 

 

Just to chuck some things into the hopper in addition to the Rallying Call utility skill I mentioned above.

 

Why not add 3 seconds to our Bladestorm and Overhead dots so they line up with the CD of the skills? This would help us on fights where we are forced to sit away from the boss like Titan 6.

[Keleus]

Again how is this really useful? If you're looking to bring in utility no ones going to take a Guardian because of gee they have some heals on Sweep. Besides if most of the ops is ranged you aren't going to be hitting that many of your allies. Unless you want there to be no range on it. In that case it sounds like you want us to be like Watchman with some light utility heals. That's not really going to change anything for the spec so I don't think its worth spending the time coding. The Guardian needs utility where it makes a large enough difference to say, 'hey maybe we should bring the Guardian over another Slinger.' Of course the dps difference needs to be addressed as well or utility won't matter.

 

So you repost the same link I gave you? Yes, Soresu is the defensive minded form, Shien was built around the concept that Soresu was too defensive and the form sought to turn an enemy's firepower against themselves. Hence why they focused on trying to become the master of redirecting blaster shots back at their attacks not just deflecting them. Redirection is different from deflection. Which brings me back to my point that lore would support Shien getting some advantage with Saber Redirect. Does Vigilance the spec absolutely need it? No, but my point is the lore does lend itself to the idea.

 

To turn what you said earlier back on you. Did you read any of my other posts? Its clearly a PvP QoL idea, not a PvE one? I'd be next to useless in PvE, just like Debilitate. My point again, is that Debilitate is mostly a patch and that doesn't address the PvE side of things. I think its dumb Focus spec gets a second jump, a slow into the rotation, and a free cost Freezing Force when its very hard to kite in the first place. Vig otoh is much easier to kite gets no slow. My point again is they could put a slow on Plasma Brand to handle some of Vig's kiting issues in PvP between that and the movement speed increase anyone should be able to stay on target, then address the mobility issues surrounding Master Strike which affects both realms of play.

 

Words would be a waste on you, moving on.

[Keleus]

Okay, there have been a lot of good suggestions both here and the Jugg forums. I've been compiling everything I can get and heres what I have so far.

 

Set Bonus Recommendation:

 

(2) Increase Master Strike Damage by 10% <--- Good, I like.

(4) Reduces the channel time of Ravage/Master Strike by 1.5 <--- LoL Fatchance XD

Vigilance:

 

Utility Addition (New Skill)

Guardians Favor-The Guardian Focuses the Force on one target Player,increasing all damage and healing done by 5%, while also reducing all damage taken and threat generated by 5% for both the Guardian and his ally. Range is 20 meters, only one player may have Guardian's Favor on at any given time. This ability can be used even if the Guardian is under the effects of another players Guard.

(This way it makes a lot of sense to pair your Guardian DPS with his MDPS counterpart, regardless of what class they are, so in the most common scenario of a Sentinel and Guardian pounding their enemies both players would be able to push their DPS harder. And considering in this scenario both of these players would have Guard (Tank guards JG, JG melds with sent) this virtually guarantees that these DPS will not pull Aggro. However on battles like Op IX where it is more beneficial to give Guard to healers, the tanks don't have to worry as much about swapping guards back to DPS after the phase change.)

Sexy as hell, I wonder who made this =P

 

Current Talent Tree Changes (Names are not set in stone, if something works better namewise-call it what you will. The Effect is the important part.)

 

NOTE:Assumes that all talents have max points allocated to them. If it is unmentioned, then the talent remains as is.

 

Zen Strike 3/3: Overhead Slash, Plasma Brand generate 1 stack of Zen Strike, which reduces the Master Strike Cooldown time by 5 seconds. Stacks up to 3 times to a maximum of a 15 second Master Strike cooldown reduction, the stack is not consumed on activation. Master Strike also has a 30 percent chance to proc Zen Master, which grants 25 percent armor penetration for your next Master Strike. The Zen Master effect can only occur every 20 seconds.

Yeouch that's overkill. The effect would have to be consumed upon use or else this would simply be too powerful, as well as the whopping 25% armor pen. Lower it to 15% and I think we have a winner here. In fact, basing this from something I read later on, lower it to 10%.

 

(This to me is the best thing they can do for us. Take RNG completely out of it. Vigilance should be a sustained damage class. So let us ramp up and keep going.)

 

Accuracy 3/3: Increase Melee and Force Accuracy by 9%. (3%,9%,6%)

[With this, I believe we would effectively get our Surge boost some posters have asked for by being able to put more points of it in our gear.]

Bit too much accuracy, so much so that it wuld actually leave us in the overpowered range because it gives us a massive advantage over the other classes in the game. Simply put, it's too much good. Instead I suggest a simple and easy toss in of 1/2/3% Accuracy, followed swiftly by 1/2/3% Armor Pen and/or Master Strike Crit Chance.

 

Sundering Throw 2/2: Reduces the required range for Saber Throw to 0 meters and lowers its cool down by 5 seconds. Additionally, Saber throw has a 100% chance to apply armor reduction to the target

This works well but then we would have to completely rework our entire 2pc bonuses lol

 

Plasma Brand 1/1: CD: 9 seconds. Engulfs your lightsaber in firey plasma, striking the target for (current Weapon) WEAPON(so it hits harder up front) damage and dealing an extra (current weapon) elemental damage over 9 seconds. This is kosher but it can be better. I still say toss in that all enemies affected by Plasmabrand take 5% extra damage from elemental attacks from all sources, thus all dps can gain a boost from it, not just you.

 

Shien Form 1/1: Increases all damage dealt by 6 percent as well as supplying a 15 percent passive in combat speed boost Isn't that what we already have? In fact, that is exactly what we have and Improved Stances gives us another 6% lol

 

Perseverance 2/2: Increases your Strength to (4.5%,9%) Screw that odd number jazz, round it up to 5/10, although I don't believe it's all that necessary.

 

Gather Focus: Generates 1 focus when taking area of effect damage. Also, when taking are of effect damage the guardian increases the damage of the next master strike by (3%,6%) while in shien form, stacks twice Works for me I s'pose.

 

(Provided Focused Defense is fixed)Commanding Awe 2/2: Reduces damage taken by (2%,4%) at all times and Focused Defense grants (10%,20%) damage reduction and cleanses movement impairing effects. WOW That would be scary powerful, I have, I don't, what? lol

 

Keening 3/3: Master Strike and your burning damage has a (10%,20%,30%) chance to trigger keening making your next Dispatch free and allowing Dispatch to be used on a target with any HP level within (10,20,30)m, in addition Keening increases the damage dealt by your burning effects by 12 percent (Up from 9) Yessssss

 

Effulence 1/1: Force Sweep no longer costs focus. Additionally, all friendly targets within the target area will be healed for 10% of the total damage caused by Force Sweep. 10% might be a bit much but the fact that it heals friendly players near you, like, idk FELLOW MELEE PLAYERS AND TANKS, GOD FORBID COMMON SENSE PREVAILS, would make this a lovely little supportive attack as well.

 

Unremitting- Acts as normal. Lowers the required range of Force Leap by 10 meters and gives the target a debuff to heals received Yesh, overkill imho considering what Unremitting already does.

 

Force Rush-Overhead Slash and Plasma Brand have a chance to grant Force Rush, which increases Blade Storm Critical Chance by 100 percent and increases Dispatch Critical Chance by 25%. This Buff is not consumed on use. Lasts 15 seconds. Stacks once. Nah, I mean, yes, on the right track, but I believe a more balanced approach would be making it similar to how it is now, that way PB and OS aren't thrown to the wayside for the rotation, but the skill itself still works. I propose that it gives Force Rush (stacking up to two times), working as Critical Strike Chance for Blade Storm 50/100%, then Critical Strike Damage 25/50%, consumed on use. That would make us scary and formidable but not broken or overly dominant.

 

Upon just reading this it might seem as the class would be OP if all the changes are implemented, but it would not. Especially considering the buff being given to Sents/slingers in 2.5 vanguards in 2.4 etc etc. This would bring us in line provided the numbers are worked properly. The chief problem with PB is it does "elemental damage" up front, which is not based on our primary attribute as far as I know.

 

The Bold/Underlined/Italic are my honest thoughts and proposals on these. Some of these are way too far gone for BW to ever give to us, and if they do, then holy ****aki mushrooms they're on some strong drugs. However, with some strong tweaks, I could see ALL of these put into place and still be balanced.

[ArenCordial]

Words would be a waste on you, moving on.

 

Yeah I was thinking the same with you. But hey we agree on something.

Edited November 1, 2013 by ArenCordial

[JefferyClark]

For the Guardians Favor, I think it needs to be a flat 5% increase to all damage and heals to both the Guardian and the target. No threat reduction, no damage reduction. That solves its OP issue. Then in the skill tree (thinking tier 3 Vig) they could include a talent to increase speed by 15% while GF is active. It could be with the Shien talent and require Shien form.

 

This really is the BEST suggestion I have heard. We can make it help dps, utility, and anti-kiting all in 1 change. That hits 3 of the 4 biggest issues we have right now with Vig, the last being Plasma Brand. It also throws Focus spec the utility and slight dps increase as well.

[Creslan]

 

Utility Addition (New Skill)

Guardians Favor-The Guardian Focuses the Force on one target Player,increasing all damage and healing done by 5%, while also reducing all damage taken and threat generated by 5% for both the Guardian and his ally. Range is 20 meters, only one player may have Guardian's Favor on at any given time. This ability can be used even if the Guardian is under the effects of another players Guard.

(This way it makes a lot of sense to pair your Guardian DPS with his MDPS counterpart, regardless of what class they are, so in the most common scenario of a Sentinel and Guardian pounding their enemies both players would be able to push their DPS harder. And considering in this scenario both of these players would have Guard (Tank guards JG, JG melds with sent) this virtually guarantees that these DPS will not pull Aggro. However on battles like Op IX where it is more beneficial to give Guard to healers, the tanks don't have to worry as much about swapping guards back to DPS after the phase change.)

Sexy as hell, I wonder who made this =p Keleus

 

 

I did on page 8, I'll give you credit for the name though, I admit Battle Meditation was not a well thought out name.

 

 

We don't need alot for Vigilance, the damage potential is there. We just need to get it refined. Up the chance on Zen strike, a little armor pen and the offensive guard. Bioware and the devs would never go for 90% the talent changes listed on AndrewanCyabos' post. If we were in the state that DPS shadows are in right now, we could get away with asking for that list. While we need work, we don't need THAT much work. We need to keep it simple.

[Hornakkan]

The Bold/Underlined/Italic are my honest thoughts and proposals on these. Some of these are way too far gone for BW to ever give to us, and if they do, then holy ****aki mushrooms they're on some strong drugs. However, with some strong tweaks, I could see ALL of these put into place and still be balanced.

 

 

I think the easiest thing for them to do is :

- either increase Zen Strike proc chance up to 45% and make the next Master Strike ignore [10, 20,30%] of the target's armor

- or make Sundering Throw, each tick of Burning Blade, each tick of Plasma Brand and each tick of Burning Purpose able to proc Zen Strike

[cs_zoltan]

We don't need alot for Vigilance, the damage potential is there. We just need to get it refined. Up the chance on Zen strike, a little armor pen and the offensive guard. Bioware and the devs would never go for 90% the talent changes listed on AndrewanCyabos' post. If we were in the state that DPS shadows are in right now, we could get away with asking for that list. While we need work, we don't need THAT much work. We need to keep it simple.

 

That's a common problem with people in this forum. If they have a slight issue with their class they are throwing around suggestions that are so overpowered they would make op healers and smash maras look balanced.

[Keleus]

1) We're not exactly useful here, let's be honest. Most people believe guardians, vanguards, and shadows belong permanently as tanks while every other hybrid class beats face of the want to mainly because they bring morev to the table then us.

 

2) When I said strong tweaks I meant STRONG tweaks, because that list really is a tad much, I had thought I made clear, guess I didn't lol sorry. But yea, I can imagine that bioware would be ok with Guardian's Favor and changes to Plasmabrand, as well as giving us any one of the armor penetration changes and increasing the proc chance on ms

[GregAlia]

Love the Offensive guard. Love it want it.

 

A slow on plasma brand is unneeded. We have a 10 meter 360 degree slow. We will not get it nor need it.

 

Some type of increased armor pen would help a lot because of our white damage.

 

I want to be nothing like sent/Mara and I hate that they are more durable than we are. I don't like stealing their root.

 

I think with the guard and some armor pen along with a tweek in the RNG our damage would be good. We should focus on more survivability at this point as our class would suggest. Fix enraged defense and perhaps have pooled hatred reworked to increase armor by a percentage if slowed or snared to help with kiting instead of damage.

[Hell_Kaiser_Fett]

I want to be nothing like sent/Mara and I hate that they are more durable than we are. I don't like stealing their root.

 

This is a problem I see, how are we LESS durable than Sents/Maras?

[GregAlia]

With force tech internal damage which ignores much of our armor, the differences in our survivability is very close. Also*sents/maras*have self heals in one tree and their rage tree is filled with passive defensive buffs making them tankier than the jugg equivalent. Then there DCD are far superior to ours allowing them to survive and escape for heals far better. Also all 3 trees can aquire 30% reduction to AOE damage. So they are more survivable than use for the most part. Vengeance is about equal but the damage is far inferior so.....not great for us.

[GregAlia]

To be more specific, cloak of pain affectively puts them in heavy armor and lasts 30 secs and is up all the time, undying rage is pretty amazing plus they can be completely healed while using it. Force camo is a wonderful complete escape. Plus their damage is so great, it is a defense in and of itself. I'm not here to complain about them but their survivability and utility over us is no secret.

[Hell_Kaiser_Fett]

So they are more survivable than use for the most part. Vengeance is about equal but the damage is far inferior so.....not great for us.

 

See that is dumb, Guard/Juggs should be more survivable than their lower armored dps counterparts. I don't think the dps issue is so much the damage we can put out as it is the mechanics needed to do so. Our own class practically works against us. That and Plasma Brand is just flat out s***.

[ArenCordial]

That and Plasma Brand is just flat out s***.

 

Except its not. It accounts for a large part of our damage and its elemental. I'm for buffing it but a lot of people seem to think that because the damage isn't upfront it sucks. Its a huge part of our dps and is more a percentage of our dps than anything but Master Strike (unless RNG hates you) and potentially Overhead (they are pretty close).

Edited November 1, 2013 by ArenCordial

[Riivan]

I'm sorry, but the offense guard is too clunky, too powerful and it doesn't fix our problems. It needs to be a one or two time deal that happens over the course of the fight akin to inspiration/slinger shield, not a perma buff to us and one player. I am all for trying to get it to work, but we should have a few options and ideas for a raid utility skill.

 

Also we need to be less reliant on MS. The suggestions also make us way too like Watchmen, except their proc doesn't require them to stop moving for 3 seconds. The proc on that should be a little bump in our dps, not something we're actively trying to reset at all times like Watchmen.

 

Our lagging numbers in ops aren't because we can't do the damage, it's because several fights actively work against a melee class that needs to remain stationary to maximize dps. We're not going to get a 1.5 sec MS since that'd make it the most powerful ability in the game. So as I see it, we need to increase the initial damage on our other three main skills or increase the dot damage by upping the per tick or adding time onto our dots (naturally plasma wouldn't lengthen).

[ArenCordial]

Also we need to be less reliant on MS. The suggestions also make us way too like Watchmen, except their proc doesn't require them to stop moving for 3 seconds. The proc on that should be a little bump in our dps, not something we're actively trying to reset at all times like Watchmen.

 

Our lagging numbers in ops aren't because we can't do the damage, it's because several fights actively work against a melee class that needs to remain stationary to maximize dps. We're not going to get a 1.5 sec MS since that'd make it the most powerful ability in the game. So as I see it, we need to increase the initial damage on our other three main skills or increase the dot damage by upping the per tick or adding time onto our dots (naturally plasma wouldn't lengthen).

 

Yeah I agree. Personally I'd hope for a 2 sec MS that's a full 33% off the channel but honestly I think BioWare is very nervous with touching Master Strike and/or Zen Strike.

 

So why is this? Most of the community frequently says we need better proc chances on Zen Strike. Why is BioWare hesitant on improving proc chances or thinks they need increase the rate limit and lower the top line dps to do so?

(ideal musing not direct at you Riivan)

 

It should be obvious, Master Strike hits like a freight train. Other refresh powers don't hit as hard but are more frequently available. Imagine a parse where you get every Master Strike proc though, it'd be monstrous. With the low % right now that's very very unlikely. Better proc % though and it would be more attainable even if still unlikely. Like I said earlier just look at the massive swings in dps just by having some lucky RNG, now compound that with much better chances in our favor. That's what BW is afraid of. BioWare can't really mess with Master Strike's damage as that would affect every Knight out there.

 

So it seems likes there's really only 3 options.

1. Buff our other abilities - Unfortunately this still leaves us with all RNG troubles, movement issues, etc surrounding MS/ZS but helps make us a little less reliant on them.

 

2. Accept the fact top line dps is going to get nerfed but the spec gets more reliable (the current idea from the Top 3 Answers).

 

or off the wall idea that just might work

3. Drop Master Strike as the cornerstone ability but not get rid of it so its really hard hitting filler, and have a new Vigilance only ability take its place. An instant power not a channel that's hard hitting with a short cooldown.

Edited November 1, 2013 by ArenCordial

[Hell_Kaiser_Fett]

Except its not. It accounts for a large part of our damage and its elemental. I'm for buffing it but a lot of people seem to think that because the damage isn't upfront it sucks. Its a huge part of our dps and is more a percentage of our dps than anything but Master Strike (unless RNG hates you) and potentially Overhead (they are pretty close).

 

Ok, maybe that was a bit exaggerated. But its not exactly good either. We need it to be fixed like they did with Guardian Slash.

[GregAlia]

I'm sorry, but the offense guard is too clunky, too powerful and it doesn't fix our problems. It needs to be a one or two time deal that happens over the course of the fight akin to inspiration/slinger shield, not a perma buff to us and one player. I am all for trying to get it to work, but we should have a few options and ideas for a raid utility skill.

 

Also we need to be less reliant on MS. The suggestions also make us way too like Watchmen, except their proc doesn't require them to stop moving for 3 seconds. The proc on that should be a little bump in our dps, not something we're actively trying to reset at all times like Watchmen.

 

Our lagging numbers in ops aren't because we can't do the damage, it's because several fights actively work against a melee class that needs to remain stationary to maximize dps. We're not going to get a 1.5 sec MS since that'd make it the most powerful ability in the game. So as I see it, we need to increase the initial damage on our other three main skills or increase the dot damage by upping the per tick or adding time onto our dots (naturally plasma wouldn't lengthen).

 

I agree with that. I don't think they want to increase our bleeds though. It is such an easy fix they would have done it by now. They want watchmen/annihilation to be the bleed spec. That's why we work around the MS gimmick. The offensive guard, though I don't think we will get that either, is a good unique class specific thing. 3% isn't that much andsome armor pen would be nice.

[Alec_Fortescue]

How about taunts also applying a percentage of damage reduction to ourselves? Say a Taunt would give us full 30% but Challenging Call 15% reduction? A high-in-the-tree dps-only talent as it would be way over the top for tanks ^^

 

Guardian dpsers are easy to kill and are popular targets in arenas.

 

I also find it an uber-fail in design that we are forced to CLIP RAVAGE/MASTER STRIKE in order to get best results... What's the point of 3 second channel if all hits are applied within 2.6 seconds? They should shorten the channel because of this and let us use abilities after Ravage naturally ends (or gets interrupted by a third party) so we won't have to rely on clipping it. It is difficult as it is with all the lag and hero engine.

Edited November 1, 2013 by Alec_Fortescue

[RayGonJinn]

I love the idea of the root for the duration of Master Strike. Do us Vigilance Guardians another favor and add Force Sweep to Burning Blade in the Vigilance tree to give our Force Sweep a chance to have a DoT also.