Bring back the stun bubble as a bandaid for sorcs

[Xanas]

So basically you have never killed a commando or a sniper in your life. Cause their kb is 2-3 times the kb distance of a sage.

 

I suggest you go back and read what you quoted bud. He did not made the premise of increasing the KB distance of Sage... The premise was to lower the cooldawn of the ability to be in line with a knight's leap. You can be my guess and tell me how am i supposed to attack a sorc on my guaridan if all my leaps are instantly pushed back and rooted.

 

they could give the force speed root and slow immunity that healer sorcs get to all sorcs. It's different to hold the line but also extremely useful.

 

Obviously it does not need to be a new ability. It can be incorporated as you said in something else. I do feel like Sorcs/Sages need a buff but NO MORE CC.

Edited October 16, 2013 by Xanas

[Ren_simp]

I suggest you go back and read what you quoted bud. He did not made the premise of increasing the KB distance of Sage... The premise was to lower the cooldawn of the ability to be in line with a knight's leap. You can be my guess and tell me how am i supposed to attack a sorc on my guaridan if all my leaps are instantly pushed back and rooted.

 

 

 

Obviously it does not need to be a new ability. It can be incorporated as you said in something else. I do feel like Sorcs/Sages need a buff but NO MORE CC.

 

The most common pvp spec for warriors is focus/rage you have leap 15 seconds and zealous leap 12seconds

In vigilance/vengeance you have unremitting/unstoppable which gives cc immunity not including slows stuns pushes

Don't act like warriors are helpless they are perfectly built for pvp

 

If force wave was on a 17'second cooldown in both these specs you still have ample room to maintain melee range

[MusicRider]

You can be my guess and tell me how am i supposed to attack a sorc on my guaridan if all my leaps are instantly pushed back and rooted.

 

By default there is no rooting, you need to invest about 27 points in one tree to get this skill. So most likely this is either a full tk or hybrid tk sage. If he is a full tk and you have problems killing a full tk sage in 1v1 well....

 

In more detail. As vigilange I cant KB you immediately. When a sage manages to do so, his kb will bring you in less than 10m. Can you please tell me the range of your force push, interrupt, stasis again? As focus can you please add the range of zealous leap?

 

Regarding reducing the cd, is not really necessary. Just increase the kb distance like in the other two ranged classes as given the what I've written above sage's kb is effective to push back walkers and not leapers.

[Xanas]

The most common pvp spec for warriors is focus/rage you have leap 15 seconds and zealous leap 12seconds

In vigilance/vengeance you have unremitting/unstoppable which gives cc immunity not including slows stuns pushes

Don't act like warriors are helpless they are perfectly built for pvp

 

If force wave was on a 17'second cooldown in both these specs you still have ample room to maintain melee range

 

Rage. Assuming the Sage is not sleeping he is going to push you back before you smash. Even assuming you get a smash off before he starts kiting and blowing you up for 15 seconds you think that is going to do anything of significants to him?

In vigilance you get 4 secs of unremitting. That is 1 MS. I am better off with Smash.

Suns? You mean the stun that also stuns me and does minimal damage? Now if you are going to tell me that some other player is going to beat on the sorc as i am "stunning" him then another player from his team should be there to stop this. Then sorcs does a wave and puts us both in roots.

 

"Pushes"? You mean Push (singular) as we don't have more then 1. It would be so good assuming i don't need to run to him before i can betat on him and the CD it has...

 

If FW was on 17 seconds it would be broken. Not that other specs (like focus, healing on OPS) and so on are not also broken to some extent.

 

Don't act like warriors are helpless they are perfectly built for pvp

 

Currently absolutly not, its probably the best DPS class (mara) but giving sorcs 17 seconds force wave is absurd. Also keep in mind that warriors are not the only melee class. You need to take into account how this is going to effect the other classes just as well.

 

@MusicRider

 

By default there is no rooting, you need to invest about 27 points in one tree to get this skill. So most likely this is either a full tk or hybrid tk sage. If he is a full tk and you have problems killing a full tk sage in 1v1 well....

 

And by default my smash does some 3k or so damage. I have to invest a lot of talents to... What exacly has this to do with anything? Yes root is up in balance but so what? How many sages do you see out there that don't have it?

Also no, i don't have a problem killing sages. That is why i agree that they need a buff. What i don't agree is giving them MORE CC. This game has enough of it.

 

In more detail. As vigilange I cant KB you immediately. When a sage manages to do so, his kb will bring you in less than 10m. Can you please tell me the range of your force push, interrupt, stasis again? As focus can you please add the range of zealous leap?

 

First off the way i know it force wave distance is 15m, zealous leap is 10m... Then again i don't play me sage anymore (stuck at lvl 50).

You first start with viliance and then go into focus only talents...

Anyway... Zealous leap would work only if you stay in the same spot(assuming what you say is correct...). You push as you move away from me... That is assuming you are smart enough to do it. For some reason i don't remember the last time i could jump to a sorc that used said ability... I usualy jump to another in range and then move after the sorc.

Push? big enough CD and sends you AWAY from me... Then i sit in said root looking as you get back on your feet and keep kiting? What is the use of it?

Intrerupt? From that range? ***?

 

Regarding reducing the cd, is not really necessary. Just increase the kb distance like in the other two ranged classes as given the what I've written above sage's kb is effective to push back walkers and not leapers.

 

I don't think this is needed... The way i know its 15m, if this is so its MORE then enough man...This is not force push that juggs get.

Edited October 16, 2013 by Xanas

[MusicRider]

Sorry need to get your facts right. Wave has a kb distance of about 7m. So every time you kb someone that leaped on you and is next to you they are within 10m range where they have a variety of tools to get back to you easily.

 

EDIT: I could go and explain all the inaccuracies abnd mistakes you made on your previous post but the fact that you are not aware that force wave has a kb distance of less than 10m, pretty much neglects everything you have said so far. More than 10m is the snipers and the commandos, not the sages one.

Edited October 16, 2013 by MusicRider

[Xanas]

Sorry need to get your facts right. Wave has a kb distance of about 7m. So every time you kb someone that leaped on you and is next to you they are within 10m range where they have a variety of tools to get back to you easily.

 

EDIT: I could go and explain all the inaccuracies abnd mistakes you made on your previous post but the fact that you are not aware that force wave has a kb distance of less than 10m, pretty much neglects everything you have said so far. More than 10m is the snipers and the commandos, not the sages one.

 

Whatever you say but it does not look like 10m for me(as i said, i don't play my sage anymore, stil irrelevant as you can bypass the 10m problem EASY). Also if i am not huging you even 10m would not end up as 10M once i land. So if i am 3m from you and you send me 10m back i end up at 13m. No zealous leap. Then add lag and you moving back and you are clearly out of range.

 

You could go on and eplain the rest assuming you would have arguments but considering you don't its better that you just trow some random rude remark and be on your way.

Edited October 16, 2013 by Xanas

[Zoom_VI]

Make egress baseline for sages.

/thread

[Helig]

Make egress baseline for sages.

/thread

With 15 sec baseline cooldown >:]

/threadthread

[MusicRider]

Whatever you say but i sure does not look like 10m for me. Also if i am not huging you even 10m would not end up as 10M once i land. So if i am 3m from you and you send me 10m back i end up at 13m. No zealous leap. Then add lag and you moving back and you are clearly out of range.

 

You could go on and eplain the rest assuming you would have arguments but considering you don't its better that you just trow some random rude remark and be on your way.

 

Whehter it looks more or less than 10m to someone is irrelevant; the fact is that the kb distance of someone next to you results in less than 10m. You can easily see that next time you leap to smn if you get kb just see your 10m abilities still being active. After leap a kb ends up less than 10m.

 

Regarding rude comments no need for me. That is your style of writing.

You push as you move away from me... That is assuming you are smart enough to do it.

Of course a knights leap does not have any rooting effect? You admitted yourself that you have no clue about sages abilities in mutiple cases, so what are you doing in this thread?

[anwg]

And to the original poster, sorry but this is a bad idea. Group stun bubble was fun killer. As much as it gives great utility again to sages/sorcs this is not the way to resolve some of the issues of the class.

 

Except the stun bubble in my post was single target and only activates when broken by damage. Pre 2.0 stun bubble was OP because

1. can be activated by right clicking off the buff

2. doesn't add the correct amount of resolve

3. goes off even if not broken by damage, and affects those who didn't attack you.

[anwg]

Make bubble stun baseline, but...

 

1. Only works against the person whose damage broke the bubble within 35 meters and adds the correct resolve, however the effect works for the sorc's teammates.

2. Backlash's effect unchanged, in addition to the baseline behavior, only works if the sorc places the bubble on himself.

 

The goal behind this idea is make sorcs more attractive, and not the automatic focus target in arenas. Maybe the bolded part should be healing tree only.

 

The extra CC won't be an issue if it actually adds the correct amount of resolve.

[Laforet]

Then give them a "hold the line" type of ability... BUT NO MORE CC. This game needs LESS CC and not MORE.

 

Sorc CC is exactly where it should be for a fun and balanced enviroment. They could make our hard stun back to 30m but thats it.

 

The problem is that the other classes are overboard with instant CC.

 

Instant AoE mez with low CD for Marauders... alright.

 

Jugg Tank 100000000 instant CCs... baylife yolo.

 

Flashyolobang with the same cd of force lift (is that a joke), specced to 30m with sniper.... insult to injury.

 

Semi spammable low slash.... yeah right.

 

If you fix those CC anomalities you will see our CC is prolly fine. Maybe a lower CD on force whirl since it has 2 secs cast.

 

Most balance problems are created by excess of abilities given to certain classes **COUGH** WARRIORS **COUGH** not because we lack.

Edited October 16, 2013 by Laforet

[Never_Hesitate]

Please, don't bring it back.

It's annoying and now that the sorc is in a good enough place to be actually useful as a heal or dps it isn't needed anymore.

 

(I played my heal sorc with the stun bubble as well pre 2.0 but I'm much happier now, when I can heal instead of just being a bubble provider)

[MusicRider]

I did read the single target stun but Im still sceptical about it as it still is a lot of cc with a very short cd and can also backfire as it happened in the past. Undoubtfully it gives great utility to the class, but I'm not sure that's the utility to bring.

 

The bubble utility is though the point that should be kept. It has also been discussed in the past in other threads that some form of utility could be given to sages with the bubble. For example, whoever you give a bubble it gives to him a 5% crit bonus while the bubble is up; or some armor bonus or a small hot when it breaks.

[snaplemouton]

Asking for a passive defensive ability is rendering the whole point of armor classes moot and makes you come across as a facetanking newbie.

 

To make things worse, you are arguing that sorcs/sages have great group utility. Where is this utility? Are you refering to bubbles? An ability a full madness sorc can't afford to spam on team mates and very few lightning sorcs stop in their channeling to cast? Is it pull? An ability that IMO even is under-utilized in the one gamemode where it actually can play a key role, Huttball.

 

As icing on the cake you're adding that CC is good and this is your biggest flaw. Instead of asking for a non-reactive ability, such as a passive defensive damage reduction, you should ask for reactive abilities that can help you control the battlefield, abilties that will distinguish a good player. This is what CC is supposed to do but between a stun that isnt correlating with our ideal range and channeled whirlwind, which you won't be able to cast against an enemy with somewhat of a clue, there's not much CC in the madness tree. As lightning you have to sacrifice mobility for a root on KB and a mez bubble. I'm convinced that sorcs/sages had been ten times more viable if they had simply done a rollback to our arsenal of CC (and that does in this context not include stun bubbles)

I should be the one wondering if you even ever touched a sage/sorc.

And stop making up things about stuff I never said. I didn't talk about group utilities and even if I did, sage/sorc are far from lacking in the group utility department. Using bubble doesn't mean to cast it on 7 people. Using one bubble ain't gonna OOF you and between spending 65 force to keep someone alive (who's probably gonna do much more then you ever will seeing how terrible you seem to be) and keeping your 65 force like a greedy idiot who's going to die in the next few seconds because he refused to help an ally, I pretty much believe bubble is one of the best utility in the game. An instant on-demand shield that is only limited by a resource you are supposed to manage in the first place.

CC being sage/sorc biggest flaw? I hope you are kidding me... I don't even see how you can even believe that. Sage/Sorc got the best knockback (Because it's only 20 seconds CD) and the best slow (30m range, high damage, instant and almost free to use with a very fair Cooldown). Mandos would kill to get that slow.

What does other classes have? Lemme guess... you're gonna say Scoundrel with their super OP flashbang? Yeah right... and the only other CCs they have is a melee stun and a slow on the same CD as yours but only useable in melee and it deals far less damage (Tranquilizer too but in a fight that is barely a factor)

Just check at every classes and you'll see that aside from tanks and deception sins (Which are inquisitor too in light armor), sage/sorc got the most CC of all the DPS and healers hands down.

Or maybe it is that you never played anything else and have no clues how other classes work in this game?

Take a good look at other classes. Stop acting like every other classes got everything and that you are a poor little sage/sorc that can't do nothing against the evil marauder.

I can kite a marauder all freaking day on my sage. Bubble sap in TK, Power force speed in heals and spam root in balance, combined with the very short CD push back that is so godly easy to aim. Add to this force barrier, instant stun, force slow and all the other kind of CC you can get from talent (Root TeleWave, root force wave, dot slow in heals, spammable pebbles in balance) and, icing on the cake, force effect cleanse. Oh! And I almost forgot. You can heal to full.

Sage/sorc are the king of kiting and put every other classes to shame in terms of running away from trouble. (Aside from shadows/assassins) They are perfect where they stand.

The problem? They are the #1 focus of everyone because they take the most damage. More tools won't bring anything to the sage/sorc. They'll still die as fast when stunned by anything and they'll still always be the only choice to focus on in every arenas.

The solution? Increase passive DR.

 

More active gameplay? I always been all about more active gameplay to increase the skill cap. But there are things that has to be passive. How stupid would it be if everyone had 0% DR and had to click a button every 10 seconds in order to get their armor DR? Plus Sage/sorc are far from being the one in need of more active gameplay. Vanguards/PTs are boring as F with their spam Ion pulse/Flame burst and their total lack of any damaging spell rotation. (Sorry Vanguards/PTs but this is totally true) Same can be told with smashing monkeys and their brain dead rotation.

Also, bubble stun ain't active gameplay at all. Passive DR isn't active either but it is by far the best solution to fix sage/sorc current problem: Being an overly focused target in arenas.

[MusicRider]

Well for a start I've never heard anyone saying a sage is needed in a team cause of their utility. And to be honest sage's kb is the worst of the game cause of conal area (not a major issue althougn it would help 360 LIKE EVERYONE's ELSE), it has the shortest KB distance THAN ANYONE OTHER KB, it has no root/snare LIKE OTHERS. Force speed? Well it can be countered in every possible way as dps, unlike hold the line which can be countered with a mezz/stun and there is none of 6-10s or snipers lol-blink which cannot be countered and mitigates all damage taken during the roll (smart snipers lol-roll on turbu when they cant interrupt). Barrier is good, but phase walk is the ability that suited this class play. Mezz and stun come as standard to all classes pretty much, and in fact the mezz of the sages is one of the worst due to its cast time.

 

Personally I play a sage for its run/gun gameplay design, I don't want to facetank any melee. For this you need reliable kiting mechanisms, ie cc mechanisms, not damage mitigation; although bringing it to where it used to be makes sense. And need to have good burst damage, so even the highest hit of turbulence does not hit as hard as any of the other hard-hitting abilities of the other dps classes.

 

TL;DR: Armor would be helpful but it would be right on the bottom of my list in terms of kiting tools, no shutdown mechanisms and burst damage, group utility. However, I do take into consideration that sage's armor was nerfed in 2.0 for no reason, together with instant force lift in balance and should not be reinstated not as a buff but simply as reinstating what was and none complained about them.

[snaplemouton]

Well for a start I've never heard anyone saying a sage is needed in a team cause of their utility. And to be honest sage's kb is the worst of the game cause of conal area (not a major issue althougn it would help 360 LIKE EVERYONE's ELSE), it has the shortest KB distance THAN ANYONE OTHER KB, it has no root/snare LIKE OTHERS.

And people ask to have uniqueness but then complain they don't have everything other classes have...

First off, I say it's the best knockback because its the lowest CD knockback in the game. 20 seconds is VERY SHORT.

It is also the knockback with the highest damage output (Considering it does about as much damage as force push but in AoE), it also has it's knockback heal on the first tier of the healing tree and is a far better heal then the mando knockback (And don't say that heal doesn't matter, cause it really does matter.) and on top of it, it's the knockback with the longest effect range (15 meters). I'd trade my knockback on my mando for this one any time. I could care less about a snare if it means I get to cut the cooldown for more then 200% and deal far higher damage and healing from it. And the knockback distance is far enough to fully do it's job.

 

Stop being so negative and maybe you'll realize how much you have instead of seeing what you don't have.

Edited October 16, 2013 by snaplemouton

[Capt_Beers]

And people ask to have uniqueness but then complain they don't have everything other classes have...

First off, I say it's the best knockback because its the lowest CD knockback in the game. 20 seconds is VERY SHORT.

It is also the knockback with the highest damage output (Considering it does about as much damage as force push but in AoE), it also has it's knockback heal on the first tier of the healing tree and is a far better heal then the mando knockback (And don't say that heal doesn't matter, cause it really does matter.) and on top of it, it's the knockback with the longest effect range (15 meters). I'd trade my knockback on my mando for this one any time. I could care less about a snare if it means I get to cut the cooldown for more then 200% and deal far higher damage and healing from it. And the knockback distance is far enough to fully do it's job.

 

Stop being so negative and maybe you'll realize how much you have instead of seeing what you don't have.

 

Didn't you you try impress me with your knowledge of Mercs/Mandos in another thread? Then surely you should know that Mercs/Mandos have a 20 sec CD on their KB if they grab the talent in Gunnery and are properly geared.

 

Sages/Sorcs could use a survivablity boost in their DPS trees. Adding the same functionality to their aggro dump that Gunnery has would be a nice addition for them I think (absorbs next tech/force attack).

[Wewzy]

Sages/Sorcs could use a survivablity boost in their DPS trees

 

Didn't realize it's only the dps sages/sorcs that are having survivability issues. Either that or everyone has just accepted scouperatives as the only healer that should be allowed to play ranked competitively.

Edited October 17, 2013 by Wewzy

[snaplemouton]

Didn't you you try impress me with your knowledge of Mercs/Mandos in another thread? Then surely you should know that Mercs/Mandos have a 20 sec CD on their KB if they grab the talent in Gunnery and are properly geared.

 

Sages/Sorcs could use a survivablity boost in their DPS trees. Adding the same functionality to their aggro dump that Gunnery has would be a nice addition for them I think (absorbs next tech/force attack).

Edit: Scratch that, I forgot the set bonus. Still, you mustn't forget their knock back is baseline 20 seconds CD and if you get a talent in telekinetic/lightning you get a root tied to it. Which is much better then a snare.

 

Sage/sorc got plenty of survivability tools in their DPS trees.

Edited October 16, 2013 by snaplemouton

[MusicRider]

And people ask to have uniqueness but then complain they don't have everything other classes have...

First off, I say it's the best knockback because its the lowest CD knockback in the game. 20 seconds is VERY SHORT.

It is also the knockback with the highest damage output (Considering it does about as much damage as force push but in AoE), it also has it's knockback heal on the first tier of the healing tree and is a far better heal then the mando knockback (And don't say that heal doesn't matter, cause it really does matter.) and on top of it, it's the knockback with the longest effect range (15 meters). I'd trade my knockback on my mando for this one any time. I could care less about a snare if it means I get to cut the cooldown for more then 200% and deal far higher damage and healing from it. And the knockback distance is far enough to fully do it's job.

 

Stop being so negative and maybe you'll realize how much you have instead of seeing what you don't have.

 

ROFL. Go ahead, let's trade.

[MidichIorian]

I do take into consideration that sage's armor was nerfed in 2.0 for no reason

I don't think anyone, including BW, can make any sense out of that nerf. I'm really interested in how that conversation went down. Like, at what point did they come to the conclusion that we didnt take enough damage?

[MusicRider]

It was mostly I think cause of shadows, same with instant force lift in balance as they had quite a bit of cc.

[MusicRider]

Edit: Scratch that, I forgot the set bonus. Still, you mustn't forget their knock back is baseline 20 seconds CD and if you get a talent in telekinetic/lightning you get a root tied to it. Which is much better then a snare.

 

Sage/sorc got plenty of survivability tools in their DPS trees.

 

As i said ROFL. Finally you got them both right, cause for the sage kb you said balance in a previous post of yours but simply can't be bothered pointing out your many mistakes.

Edited October 16, 2013 by MusicRider

[Wainamoinen]

Bring back bubblestun?

 

I can see your argument, but I really think we should address the need to revive serfdom; endemic bubonic plague and living in damp, unlit caves first.