Justify smash. Do it.

[Raazmir]

I feel like people talking about how the extra smash damage is just "easily healed through" have never watched a skilled team, knock or pull three or four targets into a pile, AOE CC with flashbangs, cybertech nades, aoe stuns etc while the sniper drops orbital laser strike, the powertech unloads flamethrower and the smasher leaps in to do 7k+ to everyone in the pile.

 

Every time ive seen that pulled off its 3 or 4 people at once to the respawn.

[ViciousFett]

Honestly, just roll one yourself and see how it plays. I find Sorc and PT much easier to play than my Sentinel.

[Zunayson]

I feel like people talking about how the extra smash damage is just "easily healed through" have never watched a skilled team, knock or pull three or four targets into a pile, AOE CC with flashbangs, cybertech nades, aoe stuns etc while the sniper drops orbital laser strike, the powertech unloads flamethrower and the smasher leaps in to do 7k+ to everyone in the pile.

 

Every time ive seen that pulled off its 3 or 4 people at once to the respawn.

 

so you're saying a skilled and coordinated team should be able to dominate an uncoordinated group of players who don't use their cooldowns?

 

shocking

[JefferyClark]

rDPS clustering & turtle teams.

You turn now!

 

Amen.

 

For Guardians/Juggs, it is the one dps spec working as it should and putting out comparable numbers to other dps classes. Sents/Maras might be a little OP with the combo of their "Guarded by Bioware" dcd, but by no means are they game-breakers.

[Raazmir]

so you're saying a skilled and coordinated team should be able to dominate an uncoordinated group of players who don't use their cooldowns?

 

shocking

 

No i'm saying theres not much to be done about it, skilled and coordinated or not, there's a REASON smashers are run, in most of the top comps and it's not because the splash damage is negligible and easily healed through.

[EzioMessi]

I feel like people talking about how the extra smash damage is just "easily healed through" have never watched a skilled team, knock or pull three or four targets into a pile, AOE CC with flashbangs, cybertech nades, aoe stuns etc while the sniper drops orbital laser strike, the powertech unloads flamethrower and the smasher leaps in to do 7k+ to everyone in the pile.

 

Every time ive seen that pulled off its 3 or 4 people at once to the respawn.

 

The combo you just stated requires the smasher's team to have at least 3 Assassins/Powertech's along with the fourth PT you mentioned, one Sniper and the one Smasher. Moreover, it requires the enemies to all have their CC breaks on cooldown, or their hands tied behind their hands or something so they don't escape. It also requires NONE of them to have full resolve so the pull and/or knocbacks actually affect them. After that it requires them to have ALL their DCDs on their full cooldowns at the exact same time, or for them to all be hit by an extreme 50 second lag spike so they can't use their DCDs.

 

Then it requires the other 4 players to be absolute ******* to the point that none of them casts a single heal or taunt or CC's none of the enemies that are doing this amazing OP combo. Finally, it needs the players inside the AoEs to have their keyboards broken, because 2 out of 3 "OP AoEs" are periodic damage effects, that have a shiny, red circle, and the first Smash will definitely break the AoE CC, leaving any player whose keyboard is not broken free to run out of it.

 

And most crucial of all, it requires the other two players on the perpetrator's team to be "Professional Gaming Legends' because they are now defending their objective in a 4v2 (this can't even be done in a deathmatch because you know... 6 people...)

 

So your quoted awesome OP combo, requires SIX classes, only one of whom is a Smasher, and a combo of the worst possible luck and/or the absolute lack of brains on the victims' part. And then you blame it all on Smashers....

 

EL OHH EL!

[Zunayson]

No i'm saying theres not much to be done about it, skilled and coordinated or not, there's a REASON smashers are run, in most of the top comps and it's not because the splash damage is negligible and easily healed through.

 

yeah. With cleave smash, its def not easily healed through, its hard to shut down, and the raw dps can be insane. With just one its relatively easy.

[Raazmir]

Or yknow, sorcs who know how to use their knockback, juggs who know how to push, nearly every class has some sort of push/pull or knockback yknow. Good players use them well, bad players act like its some miracle of god and teamspeak that it happens.

[azmundai]

whats bs about this class, is this is exactly why ops got nerfed minus the stealth.

I just cced one, he broke out and I was at 25% health before I could even use another ability.

 

broken bs is broken.

[NogueiraA]

whats bs about this class, is this is exactly why ops got nerfed minus the stealth.

I just cced one, he broke out and I was at 25% health before I could even use another ability.

 

broken bs is broken.

 

When you knock people down and do a 75% health burst stunlocking the target it's not bs right?

"cry, nerf him, he killed me, cry".

[NathanielStarr]

Let's not forget they are getting nerfed because of PvE not PvP. There were guilds doing content with class mixtures that the developers didn't intend them to be able to do. Why use a tank when you can use a DP that's as good as a tank?

[rebbertt]

If you nerf smash who's going to do all the damage?

[NathanielStarr]

If you nerf smash who's going to do all the damage?

 

word is they aren't nerfing the damage, just toning down their DCDs

[azmundai]

When you knock people down and do a 75% health burst stunlocking the target it's not bs right?

"cry, nerf him, he killed me, cry".

 

i didnt say that, im saying if ops needed a nerf, so does lolsmash

[theSCARAYone]

Since some people seem to think the spec is totally not broken, Let's see you justify that while we compare you to every other class in the game. As fair as unavoidable autocrits to 4 players are.

 

It's actually a 5 target autocrit of 10-14k that is unavoidable. No other AoE ability is capable of that. Don't you even say flyby... It has a 2-3 second cast time and doesn't even drop for a few seconds after that and is extremely visible and avoidable. It's also getting nerfed and currently has a 60 second cooldown as opposed to smashes 12 second cooldown. Smash is extremely broken, I like to call it a "Sustained Burst" spec. It will out DPS combat and vigilance in both PvE and PvP. Almost every PvE boss has adds, and smash kills Vig and Combat there. The devs just favor smash for whatever reason, and refuse to nerf it. In fact, every time they claim to "nerf" smash especially like they did with 2.0, its just another buff to the class.

[DroidDreamer]

So that Little Timmy feels good about himself?

[midianlord]

*sigh*

 

http://www.torhead.com/ability/bU3TVyF/dirty-kick

 

Dirty Kick

Instant

Energy: 10

Cooldown: 45s

Range: 4 m

Stuns the target for 4 seconds and deals 670 - 845 kinetic damage.

 

Dirty kick is a stun, it does not break on damage. A mezz would flashbang which does break on damage.

 

I thought you were QQ'ing about Flash-Bang? Sounded like it Sorry, my bad, but...

 

Even shorter CD.

 

And that's the ability that that all the "NUFF SPNIER NAOW!!1111oneone" bads usually cry about, soooo....

 

On my Snipingers, I try to stay out of the ranges that Dirty Kick/Debilitate is useful in, that's not somewhere I want to be for too long.

[Raansu]

When you knock people down and do a 75% health burst stunlocking the target it's not bs right?

"cry, nerf him, he killed me, cry".

 

No it actually wasn't when you consider the fact that the spec has zero survivability out of stealth and the sustained damage out of stealth is pretty terrible. Burst they had at launch was the only threat they had. Outside of that they were useless in longer fights.

[NogueiraA]

No it actually wasn't when you consider the fact that the spec has zero survivability out of stealth and the sustained damage out of stealth is pretty terrible. Burst they had at launch was the only threat they had. Outside of that they were useless in longer fights.

 

You're not supposed to tank anything, operative dps who try it are playing the class wrong.

Don't say you have zero survivability because ops dps has some dcd's, stun and mezz is a dcd.

I'm not saying ops/scoundrel has the same survivability as marauders, don't get me wrong.

 

FYI operative is underpowered compared to assassin.

[Sideblaze]

I leave you people for like, three days and this thread blows up into a "NO, YOU'RE OVERPOWERED!"

 

I'll admit, my **** math in the beginning was a joke, but then again, So are some of you people's logic when it comes to defending the spec. So i will break down the most common arguments i get.

 

"If smash is so overpowered, how come gunslingers are able to be unable to get charged-"

 

Wrong, Obliterate works despite cover. Also, Agents have the worst defensive cooldowns in the game. (Evasion is only good for evading an ambush or ravage once a minute. Shield probe is just worthless in every way. Roll often drains your energy and makes you more screwed assuming you're an operative. Marksman sniper's entrench move however is probably the only thing in the game that can 1v1 a smasher like it's nothing, but with heals, forget it.

 

"Well Arsenal mercs can hit huge numbers with little effort, i don't see you complaining."

 

It's true, arsenal mercs can occasionally make snipers go "Dayum." and have much better defensive cooldowns. Why do they get the free pass?

 

Simply put, they have no interrupt immunity, And they have very front loaded damage. If an arsenal merc opens on you and decides to blow all his cooldowns, you better be an assassin/shadow. To make up for this, the class is very susceptible to interrupts, charging (If hydraulic is up it still interrupts if i remember correctly.) line of sight, and effectively crumbles when pressured. In that sense it's sort of like a sorcerer, in that it does best when left alone, and doesn't do as good when getting hammered away by a random guy.

 

"Lightning sorc burst is astronomical if the procs line of perfectly."

 

As someone who occasionally plays his lightning sorc, I can't help but feel like anyone who calls them underpowered when it comes to DAMAGE is a joke. Crushing darkness_ affliction+ Thundering blast+ chain lightning+ lightning barrage. IT HURTS. IT ****IN' HURTS! Add recklessness in for more fun.

 

However, when the class is getting pressured by a melee, it has a harder time due to it's inherent squishyness. Like the merc we do better as a "Support DPS"

 

"an operative can open up on me for a 10k hidden strike with 2k acid blade ticks and can instakill my powertech tank before i can react"

 

1, No they can't.

 

2: No it doesn't.

 

3: Play a concealment operative. It's a joke right now.

 

"The deception assassin can hit me for *blah* and follow up with a *blah* damage execute and then hit me for a *holyblah* maul."

 

 

I like to think of deception as what Operatives were at launch, or the "Single target smash". I want to say they are overpowered, but only in PVP environments. To be fair, Assassins in PVE are a joke, And madness needs to be made viable.

 

One thing that frustrates me is how assassins get treated compared to operatives, We should have better openers and utility while they have better sustained fighting output, However, they beat us on every front essentially. So whatever.

 

Personally, i find powertechs to be one of the most well balanced classes. I know i know "I GOT HIT BY A 10000K FLAMETHROWER BLAH ****IN' BLAH." Well not my fault you jumped at a guy with 3 stacks of a flamethrower buff with hydraulics on and full resolve. Unlike smash, you can stop the flamethrower. "BUT IT SAYS UNINTERRUPTA-" Yes, you can't use an interrupt spell on it. But you can stun him out of it. Knock him if he doesn't have the gear under him, Charge someone else to jump out of it, Dispel the slow and run behind him.

 

"WHY DO YOU DEFEND FLAMETHROWER, IT'S JUST LIKE SMASH" Well, no it isn't actually. Flamethrower doesn't autocrit, It's easy to get out of, It's easy to heal through, it's easy to stop, i doesn't hurt at much, it makes you a walking target, requires good positioning and you can only pull one guy every 22 seconds.

 

 

Now, let's get to the whole point of this.

 

"Smash takes real skill dude, i have to maintain my force crush with a built in slow to get 3 stacks, charge my target, and press the smash key for an autocrit 8-11k to 5 people of awesome. Oh, and if i get knocked or stunned or fight a sniper, that's okay, i have obliterate. Oh, and if all else fails, i have some of the best defensive cooldowns in the game to make me an even bigger pain in the ***. Every 12 seconds. That's balanced, those operatives though, *********** broken."

 

Smashers are basically impossible to escape (Especially the marauder/sentinel variant.) without using a vanish move, and even then, it's likely the smash is still going to hit. If you stun them and run, they will charge, if you knock them, they will obliterate, If you are about to win, they will choke a ***** and then proceed to stomp on your balls and end you without any thought put into it. And if anyone is near you when the ball stomping commences, they will go "I felt that." and will lose half their health as well.

 

Whereas, when the arsenal merc nukes your buddy, you go "That ****er is dead" and charge him, and effectively take him out of the fight for awhile, A smasher in that situation, kills your buddy with a smash, is able to keep you from running just long enough to hit you with another one which effectively puts you in dispatch range.

 

 

 

TL:DR, Smash does not take skill, it is not fair, Despite whatever role Bioware intended for it, it is not balanced. Bioware is wrong.

Edited October 16, 2013 by Sideblaze

[NathanielStarr]

It's true, arsenal mercs can occasionally make snipers go "Dayum." and have much better defensive cooldowns. Why do they get the free pass?

 

.

 

While I agree with the points you make after this concerning interrupts and front loaded damage I do want to say that it is debatable that arsenal mercs have better defenses.

 

They have a 25% shield that lasts for 12 seconds on a 2 minute cooldown. As we all know criticals bypass shields. As far as shields go in this game it is one of the weakest.

 

Hydraulic overrides gives knockdown and root immunity for 10 seconds with a 30% speed boost on a 30 second cooldown. Certainly very good, but hardly a true defensive cooldown.

 

Kolto Overload is pretty good with a heal overtime that lasts for 60 seconds healing you up to 35% of your total health. This has to be triggered within 1 minute of needing it and has a 3 minute cool down. So if you have it available and hit it when you are below 35% health it heals you over 60 seconds. Considering the average health for a level 55 merc is about 30k, that is only 10500 health or about the amount of the average smash. Sure it is good in certain situations, but not great. Powertechs seem to get more out of this. I suppose the intended use when it comes to mercs using this ability is for them to escape, use hydraulics and run to heal yourself. Sure it is useful and I am happy we have it, but for us to really use it, we would have to stop contributing to the fight, which in my mind as a DPS class reduces it's usefulness.

 

Better cool downs? Not in my opinion.

Edited October 17, 2013 by NathanielStarr

[L-RANDLE]

LOL is all I can say to that....

[cycao]

 

"Well Arsenal mercs can hit huge numbers with little effort, i don't see you complaining."

 

It's true, arsenal mercs can occasionally make snipers go "Dayum." and have much better defensive cooldowns. Why do they get the free pass?

 

Mercs have better defensive cooldowns than snipers? This is news to me.

Edited October 17, 2013 by cycao

[Aetideus]

While I agree with the points you make after this concerning interrupts and front loaded damage I do want to say that it is debatable that arsenal mercs have better defenses.

 

They have a 25% shield that lasts for 12 seconds on a 2 minute cooldown. As we all know criticals bypass shields. As far as shields go in this game it is one of the weakest.

 

Hydraulic overrides gives knockdown and root immunity for 10 seconds with a 30% speed boost on a 30 second cooldown. Certainly very good, but hardly a true defensive cooldown.

 

Kolto Overload is pretty good with a heal overtime that lasts for 60 seconds healing you up to 35% of your total health. This has to be triggered within 1 minute of needing it and has a 3 minute cool down. So if you have it available and hit it when you are below 35% health it heals you over 60 seconds. Considering the average health for a level 55 merc is about 30k, that is only 10500 health or about the amount of the average smash. Sure it is good in certain situations, but not great. Powertechs seem to get more out of this. I suppose the intended use when it comes to mercs using this ability is for them to escape, use hydraulics and run to heal yourself. Sure it is useful and I am happy we have it, but for us to really use it, we would have to stop contributing to the fight, which in my mind as a DPS class reduces it's usefulness.

 

Better cool downs? Not in my opinion.

 

BH shield increases 25% the damage reduction it is not shield rating.

 

Justifying Smash. It is the only AOE that autocrits. Meaning whatever happen, if not stopped the damage will be done. It cannot be shielded it cannot be defended. Why this is happening for only one spec it is a mystery.

1. No autocrit like the other AOEs so it can be shielded, or

2. Nerf undying so Maras die like normal guardians, or

3. Reduce base damage so with shockwave it peeks at a reasonable amount.

Edited October 17, 2013 by Aetideus

[Zoraida]

I play smash spec and I know and have heard all the hype about us being broken, OP whatever. What I will say is I have almost full Oberoan and a lot of the time in arena and warzones I do pretty much dominate and that is because of a few reasons, the people I play against dont always have full expertise, healers or tanks to protect them

 

I have full power and surge and 0 crit on my gear and my auto crit smash hits on a target that has full expertise normally 6-7k this is not a large amount of damage. A lot of the time it doesn't do anything because I get taunted or the target gets guard just as I smash. When I am on Oricon and attack pvers kitted out in 78 pve mods I'm hitting them for 12-14k at most... that's the difference, dont rage about us when your not even fully geared

 

Arena is all about team composition, skill and gear, if your not full expertise and your raging that a smasher is pwning you the please give it a rest, you haven't the foggiest what your talking about. Even as a smasher with my team we don't always win running a scoundrel heal, vangurd dps tactics, guardian tank and sent smash comp. I beat many teams because my team is good but it just so happens the best comp I have seen that we are unable to beat is by a team called Drama that use an operative heal, powertech dps and 2 lethality snipers.

 

You can LOS to your hearts content and still not win because the powertech will get in there force your healer out into the open where hes exposed and if you try to kill it the healer will top it up and if he gets even close to dying he will run back to the safety of his team where your team cant go because of the immense burst the snipers do. Smashers are strong but a good team can be made with just about any spec or class if played right and smasher comps are not unbeatable

 

My team wins about 70-80% of our games with a smasher comp simply because we play better than most arena teams on our server and none of them use a counter comp heck most of those wins are against teams that have a smasher of there own and mirror comps. The 20% we lose is always against teams that don't use smashers and every time we face them we come no closer to winning, why? Because they play better, and counter our comp.

Whats that he just said... smashers can be countered, no way... YES way

 

If you really want to hurt smash comps log on your snipers, respec lethality... job done providing your team have brains that is why Drama beat us with that comp time and time again when no other team can take us down.

Another tip if you really want to stop us smashing, reskill Cybertech, launch those slow grenades after we've used stun breaker and unless your team are uncapable of moving that smasher is not gunna do crap for a while. Use that opportunity to secure your team the win

 

I am telling you this because either way i cant be bothered to invest a lot of time gearing another alt because my sentinel gets nerfed to the ground for people to then start flapping about the next thing i play being OP and then I'm in the same situation. I look forward to space combat pvp where none of that crap is gunna happen

 

It's commando's/merc's I feel sorry for, they really do have it bad at the moment in arena since they only really good against stealthers which not many ppl are using in team arena. I should know since I also play commando regularly but nerfing the smasher is not the solution when its just about everything that pwns a commando/merc, just make commando's/merc's better

Edited October 17, 2013 by Zoraida