Justify smash. Do it.

[Sideblaze]

Even if BW nerfed the auto-crit on Smash, it could still potentially damage you in the way you noted above.

 

Even if BW nerfed the aoe capability of Smash and made it a single-target skill, it could still potentially damage you in the way you describe above.

 

Even if BW nerfed the damage output by 10% (which would be a pretty extreme nerf), Smash could still potentially damage you in the way you listed above.

 

Even if BW nerfed Smash in all of the 3 ways I just listed combined (which would be insane), you could still be reduced to low health with one button.

 

Point being...this is just a troll thread by someone with an unjustifiable prejudice toward Smashers who died in a PvP zone.

 

Cute, really cute. I love it when people throw around the term "Troll" and don't know what it means.

 

The damage isn't the issue in itself, it's the ease of use, the autocrit, the amount of damage, and the inability to escape/avoid it unless you are an assassin or a BH/Trooper.

 

If the autocrit and damage multiplier only applied to the targeted enemy, it'd be fine i think. But people like you who cannot justify it in it's current state, decide to get all defensive and resort to personal attacks because you don't seem to be able to argue your point without throwing around terms you don't understand.

Edited October 11, 2013 by Sideblaze

[foxmob]

Since some people seem to think the spec is totally not broken, Let's see you justify that while we compare you to every other class in the game. As fair as unavoidable autocrits to 4 players are.

 

2.4. I have an undergeared jugg smasher. he does meh dmg. I play tactis/assault VG & PT. they aren't the same, but I would put a tactics up against a smasher in 2.4. their dps is fine. you could argue that the mara/sent has too much survivability. there's no way they should outlive their jugg counterpart, imo. but their dmg is no longer exclusive.

 

I would argue that the other dps classes and specs need help. pyro seems ok. scrapper is dire, needs more survivability like the pyro got. deception is ok, not sure if it should be touched or not. balance is a joke. so on and so forth.

[cycao]

The damage isn't the issue in itself, it's the ease of use, the autocrit, the amount of damage, and the inability to escape/avoid it unless you are an assassin or a BH/Trooper.

 

Lol

 

The damage isn't the issue in itself, its the ease of use, the autocrit, the amount of damage....

Edited October 11, 2013 by cycao

[Bearmace]

Since some people seem to think the spec is totally not broken, Let's see you justify that while we compare you to every other class in the game. As fair as unavoidable autocrits to 4 players are.

 

No justification needed. It is broken. I play it. I didn't play it until I realized I was a detirment to my team in Arenas for NOT playing it while too often getting matched up against teams running two smash/force sweep classes.

 

It is broken because an instant AoE ability should never do more damage than an instant single target ability. This is mainly referring to melee. Sure, the total damage of a channeled AoE or cast time AoE DoT can easily be justfied to do more. There is no logic in game design to have an instant AoE attack hit for more than a single target--especially when it requires little difficulty to pull off.

[sithBracer]

Just to clear this up, are you talking about smash in general or just marauder smashers?

[Sideblaze]

2.4. I have an undergeared jugg smasher. he does meh dmg. I play tactis/assault VG & PT. they aren't the same, but I would put a tactics up against a smasher in 2.4. their dps is fine. you could argue that the mara/sent has too much survivability. there's no way they should outlive their jugg counterpart, imo. but their dmg is no longer exclusive.

 

I would argue that the other dps classes and specs need help. pyro seems ok. scrapper is dire, needs more survivability like the pyro got. deception is ok, not sure if it should be touched or not. balance is a joke. so on and so forth.

 

Is that a-...It can't be.

 

Someone who isn't a whiny git and actually has something meaningful to say! I agree on this front, Some DPS classes are just not able to compete. Especially balance assassins and scrapper smugs.

[Sideblaze]

Lol

 

The damage isn't the issue in itself, its the ease of use, the autocrit, the amount of damage....

 

I see nothing wrong here, The damage isn't the issue BY ITSELF. It's the combination of the 100% damage buff, the autocrit allows power/surge stacking, which works on clustered groups, Which in turn, gives you too much damge.

Edited October 11, 2013 by Sideblaze

[cycao]

Is that a-...It can't be.

 

Someone who isn't a whiny git and actually has something meaningful to say! I agree on this front, Some DPS classes are just not able to compete. Especially balance assassins and scrapper smugs.

 

So your'e not being whiny and posting meaningful arguments which doesn't involve repeating the same things?

[DarthOvertone]

The damage isn't the issue in itself

 

Then you say...

 

it's the ease of use, the autocrit, the amount of damage, and the inability to escape/avoid it unless you are an assassin or a BH/Trooper.

 

Contradicting yourself.

 

And again...

 

If the autocrit and damage multiplier only applied to the targeted enemy, it'd be fine i think.

 

But, as I already pointed out in my previous post, this contradicts...

 

but they get me down to low health with one button, and it's annoying

 

Seriously bro. I don't know how you can live inside your own head contradicting yourself all the time like you do.

 

But people like you who cannot justify it in it's current state, decide to get all defensive and resort to personal attacks

 

Personally, I think Smash does have its problems so I really don't care to justify it. I personally don't play the spec on my Mara or JK, nor do I care to. However, I also don't come QQing to the forums about the skill when someone playing the spec kills my toon in PvP.

 

The fact of the matter is that you made a poor argument, and are still making them btw (lulz). Just come correct and admit the fact that you don't like Smash because it can kill you.

[Sideblaze]

So your'e not being whiny and posting meaningful arguments which doesn't involve repeating the same things?

 

Did i touch a nerve? Apparently you can't help but throw out the troll card without saying anything to justify smash.

 

I'll ignore you until you do so.

[NogueiraA]

Annihilation/Watchman is not viable for PVP, period.

Combat/Carnage is very good when no one stun or knockback you. Like sorc/sage Lightning, if you can't cast, you do no damage. You KNOW this game has too much stuns and knockback, so the spec is only viable with a pocket healer and the stars must be aligned looking for you.

Rage/Focus is the example that this class has a very little window to do damage through slows/roots/stun/knockback/mezz. Is the only viable to burst and press the enemy healer.

 

Make Annihilation/Watchman viable again and you'll see a massive numbers of this spec in warzones, because people like the spec (see marauder forums). Then people WILL whine again, because this is what haters do.

[Sideblaze]

Then you say...

 

 

 

Contradicting yourself.

 

.

You can't read. It's not the damage itself that's the issue, it's the culmination of all these things that boost it to such a degree. Without the autocrit or AOE aspect of the ability, it would be perfectly fine. But because of those things, it is boosted to a damage level that's absurd.

 

I mean, i know that's a difficult concept to grasp, but i think you're smarter than this.

[Sideblaze]

Annihilation/Watchman is not viable for PVP, period.

Combat/Carnage is very good when no one stun or knockback you. Like sorc/sage Lightning, if you can't cast, you do no damage. You KNOW this game has too much stuns and knockback, so the spec is only viable with a pocket healer and the stars must be aligned looking for you.

Rage/Focus is the example that this class has a very little window to do damage through slows/roots/stun/knockback/mezz. Is the only viable to burst and press the enemy healer.

 

Make Annihilation/Watchman viable again and you'll see a massive numbers of this spec in warzones, because people like the spec (see marauder forums). Then people WILL whine again, because this is what haters do.

 

Thank you for making another genuinely good post. I would rather have Anni and carnage get buffed, with rage getting kicked off it's throne. as they are not only more fun to play, but have counters outside of being focused by all your teammates.

 

But again, respect, for actually saying something with some intelligence behind it, Cheers man.

Edited October 11, 2013 by Sideblaze

[Master-Nala]

Since some people seem to think the spec is totally not broken, Let's see you justify that while we compare you to every other class in the game. As fair as unavoidable autocrits to 4 players are.

 

The idea behind Focus/Rage spec is to create a burst AoE spec for Knights and Warriors. Because those classes only have one PBAoE attack, Smash is the only real candidate for improvement. By giving it an auto-critical effect, it allows the player to spend his stat budget on power and surge enhancers. The net effect of this is to create a very powerful attack.

 

That's the justification for the attack.

 

(In PvP it should work differently, but it doesn't. What can you do?)

Edited October 11, 2013 by Master-Nala

[Sideblaze]

The idea behind Focus/Rage spec is to create a burst AoE spec for Knights and Warriors. Because those classes only have one PBAoE attack, Smash is the only real candidate for improvement. By giving it an auto-critical effect, it allows the player to spend his stat budget on power and surge enhancers. The net effect of this is to create a very powerful attack.

 

That's the justification for the attack.

 

I think that's the only justification i've seen this entire thread, and thanks for not being another whiner who likes to troll around going "UGH, JUST GET GOOD, IT'S FINE!" and while i was asking from a balance perspective rather than a raw damage output explanation, i really appreciate your post still.

 

again, thanks for your post.

Edited October 11, 2013 by Sideblaze

[Luckeyduckey]

Smash hits hard, we got it. Rage is OP, we got it. But why is it that everyone ignores the fact that Assassin's can chain 25k damage in 3-4 GCDs? Two of which are Auto-crit. A smasher can bam, smash you for 9k, then hit ravage for another 9k and maybe a Scream for 5k. Now the Assassin, in the same GCDs = Discharge = 7k Shock = 6k (+ 3k with proc), Low Slash = 3k, Maul = 9k.

 

Overall? The smasher with full crits = 23k. Assassin? 28k. Bye bye healer

[JustinxDuff]

Let's put other things on the board?

Try to justify Sniper/GS, all their dcd's + interrupt/push back immunity. Now compare this ranged class with the other 2 ranged classes, sorc and merc are completely garbage.

Do you know that Agent/Smuggler has the shortest cooldown on 4sec stun? All other classes is 1min cd, can be talented to 50sec. Agent/Smuggler is 45sec cd, can be talented to 30sec cd. JUSTIFY IT, WHY A SNIPER HAS A 30sec CD ON 4sec STUN?

 

Sniper/GS would be almost useless without the CC we have, especially as MM/SS spec.

Edited October 11, 2013 by JustinxDuff

[Master-Nala]

I think that's the only justification i've seen this entire thread, and thanks for not being another whiner who likes to troll around going "UGH, JUST GET GOOD, IT'S FINE!" and while i was asking from a balance perspective rather than a raw damage output explanation, i really appreciate your post still.

 

again, thanks for your post.

 

I think everyone knows that Rage/Focus is problematic. But it is a difficult balancing act for the devs. Every nerf that might bring it in line with similar AoE attacks in PvP would all but cripple the spec in PvE. Additionally, Smash/Sweep is really all that spec has to shine. The other attacks are nice, but nothing to write home about.

 

I don't begrudge players playing it because it's very good at what it does. PvP isn't fair and never will be. The RNG, the FOTM class/spec, etc. will always conspire to make the game less than fair. I've even come to appreciate the nerf/buff cycle. Getting pretty zen in my old age!

[Sideblaze]

I think everyone knows that Rage/Focus is problematic. But it is a difficult balancing act for the devs. Every nerf that might bring it in line with similar AoE attacks in PvP would all but cripple the spec in PvE. Additionally, Smash/Sweep is really all that spec has to shine. The other attacks are nice, but nothing to write home about.

 

I don't begrudge players playing it because it's very good at what it does. PvP isn't fair and never will be. The RNG, the FOTM class/spec, etc. will always conspire to make the game less than fair. I've even come to appreciate the nerf/buff cycle. Getting pretty zen in my old age!

 

I see what you mean, without smash, the rage tree is essentially a joke, But there are better ways to do it, don't you think?

[cycao]

Did i touch a nerve? Apparently you can't help but throw out the troll card without saying anything to justify smash.

 

I'll ignore you until you do so.

 

Defineteley did not touch a nerv. Just examples like this...

 

Not really, i kill them frequently if they aren't being healed, but they get me down to low health with one button, and it's annoying.

 

One button to get to low health.

 

and this...

 

Standard smash does at least 8k. My health is 30k. 30k-8k = 22k, Assuming he opened on me with smash, So in one attack i lost a about a third of my total health, This puts me at half, which is "Danger level" or low when fighting against good focus groups.

 

Losing a 1/3 of your health does not put you at half health. I mean I kind of get it but you cant say it takes a 1/3 of your health and then say this puts me at half health which it does not and even so being at 50% health is not a danger level, that's more for execute range or close to it.

 

and another

 

A crit ravage will reach 14k, assuming the first two or the last blow crit, no cooldowns are popped and assuming they aren't healed inbetween the second strike and the last, and assuming you don't miss or get interrupted, or assuming the victim doesn't find a way out of it.

 

Immolate has a fixed cooldown, doesn't autocrit, ignores armor completely, and doesn't hit 5 people at once.

 

Flamethrower, again, is channeled and can be stunned/knocked(Assuming no hydraulics), Takes time to tick, has at least 3gcds of setup time so can be healed through easily, and again, doesn't autocrit..

 

Now you talk about cooldowns being used defensively or getting healed and that you can stop a non vengeance ravage with a stun or kb as well as flame thrower and you throw in something about getting healed. You can stun a mara who leaps to you or pop a defensive cooldown and get healed right after it.

 

 

Rage is necessary. It's a 'bunker busting' talent, helps break up rDPS stacking in the back of encounters and helps to stop caps and helps to separate tanks/heals combo. Specs like lightning, deception, arsenal, marksman or carnage all have excellent dps and apply more pressure to individual targets which is why I play arsenal, deception and lightning as well as vengeance.

 

My damage at the end of warzones will not compare to that of a rage/focus but I will almost always beat them in killing blows which means I am the ones finishing off targets, they're helping me get to that point so I can take over and do my job.

[Master-Nala]

I see what you mean, without smash, the rage tree is essentially a joke, But there are better ways to do it, don't you think?

 

You know, I want to say yes, but I'm not sure how much better you could do it. I have 55s of every class and I've spent time in this spec on both Juggernauts/Guardians and Sentinels/Marauders. Given the design goal for the spec, I'm really not sure how you change it. The design goal isn't bad, well in PvE at least. But the effect in PvP is a bit much.

 

Any change to Smash not only ruins the spec, but it changes the spec in a very fundamental way. The devs just did that to Balance Shadows and the spec is, to be blunt, bad. And while Smash is a little cheesy it's not unbeatable as you note. In fact, I find that so many people run to the spec that I would guess it's average performance isn't particularly high. In the hand of an excellent player though...sigh.

[masih_ad_dajjal]

The way I see it one move from some spec will always be considered the best. Right now it happens to be Smash with easy critical proc... But really? So what? Jugg/Gaurd Rage really not op and Mara/Sent Rage is powerful. But really is it just because of Smash?

 

Whether pug or pre-made ranked or not I have never felt the other team won because they had 1 or more with Smash(I usually play heals). That is all the justification I need.

 

I toyed with it on my jugg(even got a whole new set of dps partisan gear) but soon went back to Immortal as Tanking is more fun imo. Also play a Sent Focus but feel my wins come more from their mistakes than my op-ness, I've also been shut down plenty of times.

Edited October 12, 2013 by masih_ad_dajjal
correction

[Sangrar]

Since some people seem to think the spec is totally not broken, Let's see you justify that while we compare you to every other class in the game. As fair as unavoidable autocrits to 4 players are.

 

smash has great damage but limited range. There justified it. I claim victory to the challenge to justify it!

[Sideblaze]

Defineteley did not touch a nerv. Just examples like this...

Losing a 1/3 of your health does not put you at half health. I mean I kind of get it but you cant say it takes a 1/3 of your health and then say this puts me at half health which it does not and even so being at 50% health is not a danger level, that's more for execute range or close to it.

 

Finally a civilized conversation, however, i have to disagree with this point, if someone is at half health he's more likely to be focused than the full healthed people if the healer isn't going down.

 

That smash was likely preceded by an obliterate or a charge, So that'll handle the extra 2k off half with relative ease.

 

Again, the easy of use is what irks me, if it was harder to pull off, or didn't autocrit, it'd be fine.

 

However, i am glad that the namecalling has ended.

[RougeBeaver]

Smash hits hard, we got it. Rage is OP, we got it. But why is it that everyone ignores the fact that Assassin's can chain 25k damage in 3-4 GCDs? Two of which are Auto-crit. A smasher can bam, smash you for 9k, then hit ravage for another 9k and maybe a Scream for 5k. Now the Assassin, in the same GCDs = Discharge = 7k Shock = 6k (+ 3k with proc), Low Slash = 3k, Maul = 9k.

 

Overall? The smasher with full crits = 23k. Assassin? 28k. Bye bye healer

 

Why does nobody cry about sins? Probly cuz assassin uses a lightsaber. When concealment ops were pulling stuff like this off (while still being squishiest class in game), people screamed bloody murder and bioware caved. Gave 'em the single hardest and overexcessive nerf in the history of the game. And they still haven't recovered. If a non-jedi goes around shanking people, it's not star warz enuff i guess.

 

Oh...was this thread about smash? I'll go get the bananas.