Devs plan on nerfing our survivability...

[Lecaja]

Other than Undying Rage, just how are we being nerfed?

[verfallen]

This class already dies to easily. PvP they suck because they cannot live long enough to do much of anything, soloing was a drag because your stuck with only Quinn for the heals. For a cool looking and sounding class, I'm really starting to hate it. Survivability is nill.

 

Just like I think people wanting to nerf to the ground a class they have issues dealing with, people going on the forum inventing issues with their AC are only encouraging dev to discard the sensible argument someone raised before you

 

L2P if you have issues doing regular content with a mara, really.

[Projawa]

I'll suggest in Musco's upcoming brainstorming thread for marauders to give us Force Push

[znihilist]

What non-sense is this? Have you ever actually played a shadow/assassin in a war zone or an arena? Of course you have to be in all of the large fights. Everyone has to be in the large fights which is why they are large fights to begin with? What are you picturing here? A game of coast where the enemy is heavily pounding the southern turret and all of the shadows and scoundrels are sitting in stealth and not fighting? How does not participating in a battle work out for you in arenas? You sit back in stealth while the enemy team rips your non-stealth group members to pieces?

 

Being an "ambusher" describes the first second of an encounter and nothing else. Once they come out of stealth, they're melee combatants in weaker armour, just like marauders.

 

Your decision to not use the best of your class is your fault not BW, if I take my concealment in the middle of 7v7 fight I can't be expected to perform optimally.

[Sideblaze]

The problem with any buffs we could receive basically is that we'd have to find a way to either exclude smash from the fun, or nerf smash to where it wouldn't be an issue.

 

I vote on the latter. Personally. It's been far too long.

[thatPERSON]

i read most of the posts here... you all need to l2read, the devs stated the "nerf" was to undying rage. the health is taken at the end, not at the beginning.....

 

bunch of overreacting people here.

[Fatitude]

On a serious note, do Mara's really need nerfed? People buy into things like this far to easily. Amazingly enough the terrible sorc's with their low survivability when played by great players dominate( see pot5's sorcs). People need to swallow the pill that it's them not their class. I'm not saying Mara's are not in a good place, but folks tend to whine because they got a beat down from a superior player. Come to grips with that fact before another class is broken.

 

Ap pt's both hybrid and regular, sorcs as madness,jugg tanks, op heals, snipers are all very strong and equal in their role to mara's. Mercs are not far behind. Play your class better, learn to counter and go on about your day. Player>class with a few exceptions.

[Sappharan]

On a serious note, do Mara's really need nerfed? People buy into things like this far to easily. Amazingly enough the terrible sorc's with their low survivability when played by great players dominate( see pot5's sorcs). People need to swallow the pill that it's them not their class. I'm not saying Mara's are not in a good place, but folks tend to whine because they got a beat down from a superior player. Come to grips with that fact before another class is broken.

 

Ap pt's both hybrid and regular, sorcs as madness,jugg tanks, op heals, snipers are all very strong and equal in their role to mara's. Mercs are not far behind. Play your class better, learn to counter and go on about your day. Player>class with a few exceptions.

 

^^^^^^

 

FINALLY! Someone who gets it.

 

/salute

[psybernetic]

On a serious note, do Mara's really need nerfed? People buy into things like this far to easily. Amazingly enough the terrible sorc's with their low survivability when played by great players dominate( see pot5's sorcs). People need to swallow the pill that it's them not their class. I'm not saying Mara's are not in a good place, but folks tend to whine because they got a beat down from a superior player. Come to grips with that fact before another class is broken.

 

Ap pt's both hybrid and regular, sorcs as madness,jugg tanks, op heals, snipers are all very strong and equal in their role to mara's. Mercs are not far behind. Play your class better, learn to counter and go on about your day. Player>class with a few exceptions.

 

I've seen some amazing marauders and they wipe the floor with just about any comp out there. I wish I could remember this guy's name, but our team ended up as a 3v4 and he, as a smash mara, destroyed the other team. Took out two guys on his own. While he's exceptionally good, that doesn't change the fact that marauders have better tools than other classes. As it stands on live, maras are as hard to kill as tank classes in tank spec.

 

AP needs a fix so that ion doesn't work as well with it, Madness sorcs die quickly under focused fire, op heals only get really imba with a tank guarding them, tanks of any sort aren't terribly effective without heals, and snipers splat about as quickly as sorcs do in yolo queue.

 

I'm not at the level of Mud, Xeno or Glory, but to see maras whine about losing survivability when they never should have had so much in the first place rubs me wrong.

[Sappharan]

I've seen some amazing marauders and they wipe the floor with just about any comp out there. I wish I could remember this guy's name, but our team ended up as a 3v4 and he, as a smash mara, destroyed the other team. Took out two guys on his own. While he's exceptionally good, that doesn't change the fact that marauders have better tools than other classes. As it stands on live, maras are as hard to kill as tank classes in tank spec.

 

AP needs a fix so that ion doesn't work as well with it, Madness sorcs die quickly under focused fire, op heals only get really imba with a tank guarding them, tanks of any sort aren't terribly effective without heals, and snipers splat about as quickly as sorcs do in yolo queue.

 

I'm not at the level of Mud, Xeno or Glory, but to see maras whine about losing survivability when they never should have had so much in the first place rubs me wrong.

 

You did not respond with the vitriol and indignation that others do, and I respect that. You DID lump all Sentinels/Marauders into the Focus/Rage (IE SMASH) pool. That is categorically unfair.

 

People lament the weak state of this spec or that spec but are quick to paint the broad stroke of "OVERPOWERED" over all Sentinels and Marauders when the real culprit is Focus/Rage--the tree all the way to the right.

 

Here is how it breaks down:

 

Watchman/Annihilation: Lacks burst for kill utility and healing for durability in Warzones. It takes too long to build up Merciless Slash/Annihilation stacks and they fade too quickly in or out of combat. Still, it is decent at solo kills IF healers are not paying attention. Only good for single target damage, but also good at frustrating healers because of leap distance and shorter interrupt cooldown (if specced). It is the most involved (complicated) of the specs.

 

Combat/Carnage: Great burst (heavily RNG dependent) and decent utility with Transcendence/Predation. It also has resource management difficulties. With so many ACs benefiting from immunity to roots, the cc aspect of Combat is dubious at best. It is the squishiest of the specs and only good for single target damage. Easily shut down and stymied by the plethora of KBs, Soft and Hard stuns. One cannot accidentally perform well at Combat. Either you know how to play it or you don't. Timing is critical. It is the trickiest (most difficult) of the specs.

 

Focus/Rage: Great burst, great resilience and no resource problems and long windows of damage opportunity. It is the most intuitive of the specs. It has no weaknesses.

 

I suggest you play a Sentinel or Marauder. Virtually anyone can master Focus/Rage spec. Try Combat or Watchman. I daresay you will find those challenging and frustrating--particularly Combat with the abundance of cc in the game.

Edited November 30, 2013 by Sappharan

[psybernetic]

You did not respond with the vitriol and indignation that others do, and I respect that. You DID lump all Sentinels/Marauders into the Focus/Rage (IE SMASH) pool. That is categorically unfair.

 

People lament the weak state of this spec or that spec but are quick to paint the broad stroke of "OVERPOWERED" over all Sentinels and Marauders when the real culprit is Focus/Rage--the tree all the way to the right.

 

Here is how it breaks down:

 

Watchman/Annihilation: Lacks burst for kill utility and healing for durability in Warzones. It takes too long to build up Merciless Slash/Annihilation stacks and they fade too quickly in or out of combat. Still, it is decent at solo kills IF healers are not paying attention. Only good for single target damage, but also good at frustrating healers because of leap distance and shorter interrupt cooldown (if specced). It is the most involved (complicated) of the specs.

 

Combat/Carnage: Great burst (heavily RNG dependent) and decent utility with Transcendence/Predation. It also has resource management difficulties. With so many ACs benefiting from immunity to roots, the cc aspect of Combat is dubious at best. It is the squishiest of the specs and only good for single target damage. Easily shut down and stymied by the plethora of KBs, Soft and Hard stuns. One cannot accidentally perform well at Combat. Either you know how to play it or you don't. Timing is critical. It is the trickiest (most difficult) of the specs.

 

Focus/Rage: Great burst, great resilience and no resource problems and long windows of damage opportunity. It is the most intuitive of the specs. It has no weaknesses.

 

I suggest you play a Sentinel or Marauder. Virtually anyone can master Focus/Rage spec. Try Combat or Watchman. I daresay you will find those challenging and frustrating--particularly Combat with the abundance of cc in the game.

 

I actually just got a marauder to 55 last week and played Carnage for the majority of its leveling. I spent roughly 15 minutes (1 warzone, and significantly longer on my juggernaut) as Rage and the first 25 or so levels as Anni. I understand weaknesses and cooldowns of the class and can safely say that outside of Rage, it's fairly balanced and well designed. Anni is unquestionably one of the best pve specs in the game, and Carnage is very competitive as well. In pvp, Rage is undeniably the best damage spec in the game in terms of output, survival and ease of play. Carnage is in a pretty good spot, too, and I'd say it's the most balanced of the three in pvp because it's not unkillable, but does a significant amount of damage. In case you were wondering, Carnage is by far my favorite spec.

 

Let's compare with some other specs of other classes:

 

Operative: heals are extremely survivable given a tank. Without one, easily focused down by semi-competent dps. Dps operatives are terribly squishy and do laughable damage in the hands of all but the best players. Roll can get out of sticky situations but requires a fifth of the energy bar.

 

Juggernaut: All the survivability of a tank you'd expect as Immortal, weak sustained and burst as Vengeance with a 4 second immunity after a Charge and Rage is a glass cannon.

 

Merc: Only really useful for net in pvp, few defensive cooldowns, root/physics immunity on a medium cooldown. I don't have one of these, but they're typically one of the first focus targets in an arena if there isn't a sorc.

 

PT: imbalanced as all hell in AP, tank is average and pyro isn't that great. One of two classes that dominates solo queue.

 

Assassin: has tank cooldowns in cloth armor, very bursty but easily taken down by equally skilled players of almost any class.

 

Sniper: cover, a few defensive CDs and medium armor. Completely stationary, which is horrible in a deathmatch. 20 second CD roll. Can spec for Entrench. Typically destroyed by assassins in yolo and has a very low representation. Mine isn't very high so I can't really comment at 55 other than from observation.

 

Sorc: light armor, no real defensive CDs, only healers get root/snare immunity during speed, 2.5-3 minute immunity CD that applies a self-cc because of channeling. Weakest knockback for a class that needs it. Questionable design philosophy overall, but particularly for Lightning. The top 1% of players can make it work exceptionally well, but the remaining 99% struggle.

 

Even at baseline, Undying Rage is an amazing defensive cooldown, Cloak of Pain is essentially a flat 20% reduction every 30 seconds, Force Camo can get absurd, especially as Carnage. Marauders are excellently designed and maintained. Any complaints about root immunity can be sent to the Department of Learn to Play. Watch the buffs on your target and don't waste a root (short) cooldown.

 

Marauders are almost fine; all that needs be done is to nerf their defensives, which is being done, and to seriously cut down on Rage's AOE potential, which has more or less be stated will never happen. So when I say to suck it up, I say it from a perspective that's not unfamiliar with the class. There's no real reason to bring melee that isn't a marauder to anything anymore when they bring the raid buffs and the damage potential to both pve and pvp. Many other ACs need more attention and love than maras do.

[Sappharan]

I actually just got a marauder to 55 last week and played Carnage for the majority of its leveling. I spent roughly 15 minutes (1 warzone, and significantly longer on my juggernaut) as Rage and the first 25 or so levels as Anni. I understand weaknesses and cooldowns of the class and can safely say that outside of Rage, it's fairly balanced and well designed. Anni is unquestionably one of the best pve specs in the game, and Carnage is very competitive as well. In pvp, Rage is undeniably the best damage spec in the game in terms of output, survival and ease of play. Carnage is in a pretty good spot, too, and I'd say it's the most balanced of the three in pvp because it's not unkillable, but does a significant amount of damage. In case you were wondering, Carnage is by far my favorite spec.

 

Let's compare with some other specs of other classes:

 

Operative: heals are extremely survivable given a tank. Without one, easily focused down by semi-competent dps. Dps operatives are terribly squishy and do laughable damage in the hands of all but the best players. Roll can get out of sticky situations but requires a fifth of the energy bar.

 

So how many DPS do you think SHOULD be required to take down a healer?

 

DPs operatives open at a place and time of their choosing with initiative and surprise. They start with full resources, they have two hard stuns, a soft stun and can reopen at any point or escape if combat goes poorly for them following their amazing opening burst. Finally, they have a bar and a half of resources (with a cooldown that is short).

 

These complaints you've lodged are simply the cost of playing a stealth class that cannot be targeted until it chooses to strike. They're plenty strong for the role they've chosen in warzones. They elected to be the lone wolves, the rogues--the gankers. They enjoy significant advantages (advantages--plural) in solo combat, and to deny that is to admit your bias for the class or against Sentinels. They're not meant to wade in as so many seem to want to do. The classes can either be homogenized with the addition of abilities they were not originally intended to have, or we can embrace the distinction of each and play them to the strengths and styles best suited to their designs.

 

Id est, stop trying to get the best of everything or complain when certain modes of combat are denied classes that fill a highly specialized niche.

 

For any counter arguments, consider--I am not coming to your favorite class' forums advocating debuffs or decrying the complaints against impending nerfs. Not that I like seeing people frustrated, but game balance is important. Now, I don't like nerfs but, if Sentinels get nerfed, I may elect to make my private opinions about class balance more public as it will then be clear that we have influence on game development. Since we appear to have that much influence I may as well proffer my arguments and hope to effect change I wish to see. Why not?

 

Juggernaut: All the survivability of a tank you'd expect as Immortal, weak sustained and burst as Vengeance with a 4 second immunity after a Charge and Rage is a glass cannon.

 

Merc: Only really useful for net in pvp, few defensive cooldowns, root/physics immunity on a medium cooldown. I don't have one of these, but they're typically one of the first focus targets in an arena if there isn't a sorc.

 

PT: imbalanced as all hell in AP, tank is average and pyro isn't that great. One of two classes that dominates solo queue.

 

Assassin: has tank cooldowns in cloth armor, very bursty but easily taken down by equally skilled players of almost any class.

 

Sniper: cover, a few defensive CDs and medium armor. Completely stationary, which is horrible in a deathmatch. 20 second CD roll. Can spec for Entrench. Typically destroyed by assassins in yolo and has a very low representation. Mine isn't very high so I can't really comment at 55 other than from observation.

 

Sorc: light armor, no real defensive CDs, only healers get root/snare immunity during speed, 2.5-3 minute immunity CD that applies a self-cc because of channeling. Weakest knockback for a class that needs it. Questionable design philosophy overall, but particularly for Lightning. The top 1% of players can make it work exceptionally well, but the remaining 99% struggle.

 

Even at baseline, Undying Rage is an amazing defensive cooldown, Cloak of Pain is essentially a flat 20% reduction every 30 seconds, Force Camo can get absurd, especially as Carnage. Marauders are excellently designed and maintained. Any complaints about root immunity can be sent to the Department of Learn to Play. Watch the buffs on your target and don't waste a root (short) cooldown.

 

At baseline, Gbtf/UR is nothing more than a stopgap measure. In PvP (again, pve means nothing to me) few healers, especially pug healers, are going to bother healing a Sentinel who has used it. Past 30% life Sentinels will be written off as lost causes. Combat/Carnage are simply not sturdy enough to debuff GbtF in this way.

 

With regard to roots, let me clear something up for you. One, I don't waste my roots. Two, the PROBLEM is that immunity to roots prevents the only cc afforded specifically to Combat from being utilized. Using a root after it is needed is just as useless as wasting it on someone with immunity. Do think on that.

 

Marauders are almost fine; all that needs be done is to nerf their defensives, which is being done, and to seriously cut down on Rage's AOE potential, which has more or less be stated will never happen. So when I say to suck it up, I say it from a perspective that's not unfamiliar with the class. There's no real reason to bring melee that isn't a marauder to anything anymore when they bring the raid buffs and the damage potential to both pve and pvp. Many other ACs need more attention and love than maras do.

 

Sentinels and Marauders are fine NOW. Only Focus/Rage has too much durability and that is because the developers thought that wading into combat to do damage would require that much resilience. Clearly they were wrong. Now, however, all the rancor, all the hate and anger has finally convinced the developers to pander to the uninformed masses.

 

Leveling a Marauder to 55 makes you a mere novice at best. Anyone with rudimentary literacy is able to read and comprehend the utility of the cooldowns, but only play and experience confers the kind of insight and acumen required to use them effectively and efficiently.

[psybernetic]

If all these complaints are based around pugs and solo combat, then there's really nothing to discuss here. 9/10 yolo queues don't have a dedicated healer and to whine about a pug healer ignoring a teammate low on health is asinine. The only pvp that has ever really mattered for balance concerns is group ranked, although it looks like the "team" in charge of class balance is going to pay more attention to yolo than necessary. Certain specs have high skill caps, yeah, and that's the point. Sorcs, mercs, Carnage, they're challenging and operate best in coordinated team play, which is what this game is all about. No smart developer balances around duels unless that is specifically the focus of the game design.

 

I'm not necessarily advocating a nerf as I more or less intend to make my mara into a second main and think that they're rather blindly swinging the nerf bat around while simultaneously ignoring problems that have been glaring for over a year with other classes. If there's any one skill that needs a severe design change it's Smash, as the 8-10k aoe autocrits are nothing short of game-breaking. However, because that's the intended design of the spec, nothing will be done about it. Even with a healer, if you get two smashtards into an enemy group, they'll deal about 32-40k damage in one hit, each. Smash is literally the biggest problem with the warrior class and yet it'll go untouched.

 

As for how many dps should it take to kill a lone healer? 1-2, depending on class and player matchup.

[Sappharan]

If all these complaints are based around pugs and solo combat, then there's really nothing to discuss here. 9/10 yolo queues don't have a dedicated healer and to whine about a pug healer ignoring a teammate low on health is asinine. The only pvp that has ever really mattered for balance concerns is group ranked, although it looks like the "team" in charge of class balance is going to pay more attention to yolo than necessary. Certain specs have high skill caps, yeah, and that's the point. Sorcs, mercs, Carnage, they're challenging and operate best in coordinated team play, which is what this game is all about. No smart developer balances around duels unless that is specifically the focus of the game design.

 

I'm not necessarily advocating a nerf as I more or less intend to make my mara into a second main and think that they're rather blindly swinging the nerf bat around while simultaneously ignoring problems that have been glaring for over a year with other classes. If there's any one skill that needs a severe design change it's Smash, as the 8-10k aoe autocrits are nothing short of game-breaking. However, because that's the intended design of the spec, nothing will be done about it. Even with a healer, if you get two smashtards into an enemy group, they'll deal about 32-40k damage in one hit, each. Smash is literally the biggest problem with the warrior class and yet it'll go untouched.

 

As for how many dps should it take to kill a lone healer? 1-2, depending on class and player matchup.

 

I agree wit most of your points. Developers do not have 1v1 high on their priorities, but I think it ought to be considered. Hopefully, it is. The moment I know that I am simply not going to win against a player of equal skill and gear because of the class he chose, that's the moment I elect to quit the game. There is little more frustrating than engaging in a futile enterprise.

 

Focus is too strong. Why it cannot be addressed without hurting the rest of the AC is beyond me. I think I have a legitimate "whine".

Edited December 1, 2013 by Sappharan

[Alec_Fortescue]

Nerfing your survivability. It's not like you didn't have more than Juggernaut at this stage. Your Guided by Bioware will be Endure Pain on steroids now. Still better, only slightly nerfed.

[ShadowMudkip]

I agree wit most of your points. Developers do not have 1v1 high on their priorities, but I think it ought to be considered. Hopefully, it is. The moment I know that I am simply not going to win against a player of equal skill and gear because of the class he chose, that's the moment I elect to quit the game. There is little more frustrating than engaging in a futile enterprise.

 

Focus is too strong. Why it cannot be addressed without hurting the rest of the AC is beyond me. I think I have a legitimate "whine".

 

Focus can indeed be rebalanced in a way that does not hurt the other two specs.

1. Singularity (don't know marauder term) needs to only apply to your focused target. This makes smash viable but not OP in pvp, and leaves pve untouched.

2. The UR talents in the focus tree needed to go. The reduced health cost plus the lower CD made it OP, not the ability itself.

Edited December 1, 2013 by ShadowMudkip

[Sappharan]

Nerfing your survivability. It's not like you didn't have more than Juggernaut at this stage. Your Guided by Bioware will be Endure Pain on steroids now. Still better, only slightly nerfed.

 

Your unsolicited opinion is noted.

 

As I stated earlier, when Sentinels are nerfed I will be more open and public with my ideas about balance for other classes. It makes sense and well, there are a lot of things that I feel need addressing.

[Sappharan]

Focus can indeed be rebalanced in a way that does not hurt the other two specs.

1. Singularity (don't know marauder term) needs to only apply to your focused target. This makes smash viable but not OP in pvp, and leaves pve untouched.

2. The UR talents in the focus tree needed to go. The reduced health cost plus the lower CD made it OP, not the ability itself.

 

Both are good options to be used simultaneously. Of course, only the reduced health cost is going. They're still allowing the reduced CD even though the whole AC suffers the backloaded damage debuff and the increased base CD.

[RakeshZeal]

The issue with new GBtF/UR, is very simple. It negate half the healing recieved while it is active... the more healing the more health is actually lost. It is by nature a low health ability, Best suited for the near-end of combat. So by that it is no longer a survivability tool, its an overdose shot of Adrenals. For better or worse, treated as such. That said...

 

I believe its current incarnation is not what bioware was looking for, but with feb at the earliest for new class changes even though they said time and again that changes would be a routine thing around here... its what has to be lived with. I believe it needs a complete remodel. Perhaps may only be used at less then 30% life, provides 99% damage reduction for 6 seconds, adds 20% of the players power for the duration. End effect the target dies. The current skill is just a pain in the arse for healers.