Gah, I'm going to have to bust out my 1.x guide and redo it once I'm back in the swing.

whynotboth.jpg

Dat regstar arena takes so long and is so worth protesting, amirite? Stop speccing Lightning for pvp (I know, it's hard, but if I could do it, so can you). Now that your primary handicap outside of skill has been removed, don't forget Fadeout to help you out of those overabundant roots. Above all, keep your distance and use Barrier effectively.

Looks like someone's new here, Dep.

Doubtful that anything will come of this thread anytime soon. Basically every sorc/sage in the top 50 is Madness and you can't count Mudclot because he quit and uninstalled.

If all these complaints are based around pugs and solo combat, then there's really nothing to discuss here. 9/10 yolo queues don't have a dedicated healer and to whine about a pug healer ignoring a teammate low on health is asinine. The only pvp that has ever really mattered for balance concerns is group ranked, although it looks like the "team" in charge of class balance is going to pay more attention to yolo than necessary. Certain specs have high skill caps, yeah, and that's the point. Sorcs, mercs, Carnage, they're challenging and operate best in coordinated team play, which is what this game is all about. No smart developer balances around duels unless that is specifically the focus of the game design. I'm not necessarily advocating a nerf as I more or less intend to make my mara into a second main and think that they're rather blindly swinging the nerf bat around while simultaneously ignoring problems that have been glaring for over a year with other classes. If there's any one skill that needs a severe design change it's Smash, as the 8-10k aoe autocrits are nothing short of game-breaking. However, because that's the intended design of the spec, nothing will be done about it. Even with a healer, if you get two smashtards into an enemy group, they'll deal about 32-40k damage in one hit, each. Smash is literally the biggest problem with the warrior class and yet it'll go untouched. As for how many dps should it take to kill a lone healer? 1-2, depending on class and player matchup.

I actually just got a marauder to 55 last week and played Carnage for the majority of its leveling. I spent roughly 15 minutes (1 warzone, and significantly longer on my juggernaut) as Rage and the first 25 or so levels as Anni. I understand weaknesses and cooldowns of the class and can safely say that outside of Rage, it's fairly balanced and well designed. Anni is unquestionably one of the best pve specs in the game, and Carnage is very competitive as well. In pvp, Rage is undeniably the best damage spec in the game in terms of output, survival and ease of play. Carnage is in a pretty good spot, too, and I'd say it's the most balanced of the three in pvp because it's not unkillable, but does a significant amount of damage. In case you were wondering, Carnage is by far my favorite spec. Let's compare with some other specs of other classes: Operative: heals are extremely survivable given a tank. Without one, easily focused down by semi-competent dps. Dps operatives are terribly squishy and do laughable damage in the hands of all but the best players. Roll can get out of sticky situations but requires a fifth of the energy bar. Juggernaut: All the survivability of a tank you'd expect as Immortal, weak sustained and burst as Vengeance with a 4 second immunity after a Charge and Rage is a glass cannon. Merc: Only really useful for net in pvp, few defensive cooldowns, root/physics immunity on a medium cooldown. I don't have one of these, but they're typically one of the first focus targets in an arena if there isn't a sorc. PT: imbalanced as all hell in AP, tank is average and pyro isn't that great. One of two classes that dominates solo queue. Assassin: has tank cooldowns in cloth armor, very bursty but easily taken down by equally skilled players of almost any class. Sniper: cover, a few defensive CDs and medium armor. Completely stationary, which is horrible in a deathmatch. 20 second CD roll. Can spec for Entrench. Typically destroyed by assassins in yolo and has a very low representation. Mine isn't very high so I can't really comment at 55 other than from observation. Sorc: light armor, no real defensive CDs, only healers get root/snare immunity during speed, 2.5-3 minute immunity CD that applies a self-cc because of channeling. Weakest knockback for a class that needs it. Questionable design philosophy overall, but particularly for Lightning. The top 1% of players can make it work exceptionally well, but the remaining 99% struggle. Even at baseline, Undying Rage is an amazing defensive cooldown, Cloak of Pain is essentially a flat 20% reduction every 30 seconds, Force Camo can get absurd, especially as Carnage. Marauders are excellently designed and maintained. Any complaints about root immunity can be sent to the Department of Learn to Play. Watch the buffs on your target and don't waste a root (short) cooldown. Marauders are almost fine; all that needs be done is to nerf their defensives, which is being done, and to seriously cut down on Rage's AOE potential, which has more or less be stated will never happen. So when I say to suck it up, I say it from a perspective that's not unfamiliar with the class. There's no real reason to bring melee that isn't a marauder to anything anymore when they bring the raid buffs and the damage potential to both pve and pvp. Many other ACs need more attention and love than maras do.

I've seen some amazing marauders and they wipe the floor with just about any comp out there. I wish I could remember this guy's name, but our team ended up as a 3v4 and he, as a smash mara, destroyed the other team. Took out two guys on his own. While he's exceptionally good, that doesn't change the fact that marauders have better tools than other classes. As it stands on live, maras are as hard to kill as tank classes in tank spec. AP needs a fix so that ion doesn't work as well with it, Madness sorcs die quickly under focused fire, op heals only get really imba with a tank guarding them, tanks of any sort aren't terribly effective without heals, and snipers splat about as quickly as sorcs do in yolo queue. I'm not at the level of Mud, Xeno or Glory, but to see maras whine about losing survivability when they never should have had so much in the first place rubs me wrong.

It's still cheaper to buy an obroan piece and rip mod/enhancement out than to buy both an obroan mod and enhancement. The obroan level enhancement itself is around the same price as a full piece of armor, so it's kind of stupid how they set it up.

Check out Nibbon's guide in the sage forums. Unfortunately for most PvEers, the sorc forums are heavily PvP focused.

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=627405 Sage terms, but it's the pve guide to look at.

I'd actually love to see EB baseline with the talent updated so that the root doesn't break on damage. Melee has so many tools to get out of it and if you're a clever sorc, you'll purge the debuff from yourself or teammates.

Hence why I got serious with my marauder =/

The only thing they're removing as far as I've seen is the immunity outside of actual cover spots, so no kneeling down in an open field and laughing your way to the charge immunity bank.

Postin' in a troll thread, troll thread, troll thread

I vote for a sticky.

2m isn't far enough, as that's still well within melee range, and anything within 10m will keep a smasher within range of both smash and obliterate.

I don't remember where this got posted, but someone brought up the idea of a 15m knockback on TB. I figured it needed mentioning again, as it would greatly help Lightning's gap creation. Marksman gets one on Ambush rather low in the tree. Honestly, TB is a lackluster top-tier talent. Its base damage is weak, and while the autocrit is nice, it's still not all that great damage on most targets. No one should expect god-mode abilities on any class, but when you dedicate the majority of your talents to a tree, there should be some sort of reward. While I don't have hard data to back it up, the burst on a proc FL + CL feels much higher than TB, and most certainly is when they crit. I regularly see huge numbers on CL crits that make TB look like a wet sponge, well into the 8k range, even with armor reduction. We've said it before, and we'll say it again: we're glass cannons without the cannon. Our "suvivability" through our heals is insignificant vs melee because in the gcd it takes to cast a bubble or UP, we've netted a loss in our health. Would it be wrong to suggest that dps sorcs wouldn't mind having our heals be out-of-combat-only in exchange for better control and damage options? I don't think so, because we'd be Corruption of we wanted to heal. On a less-whiny note, a change to Static Barrier: enemies who attack a sorc when it's up take small energy (kinetic for sages) damage and are snared for 2-3 seconds. That would help tremendously for Corruption and Madness, as well as make it less undesirable to have another sorc's bubble on you as Lightning. Melee classes are too strong as-is and we need some means of dealing with them.

I'm curious as to how a 5s duration would help in pve, no sarcasm. In pvp, Vengeance is a very good pressure spec against sorcs because of its high physical damage and the difficulty in shaking a well-played jugg, so 5s would be a rather serious buff, even if it were an on-demand ability. As far as the concern about an on-demand stun immunity goes, they could simply remove that part of it and make it more like hydraulic overrides. Physics immunity is a potent ability in this game vs ranged, as anyone can really tell.

Is anyone else concerned that a 4 second Unstoppable buff + a root on Ravage is only going to exacerbate the current issue where melee have incredible amounts of gap closers, snares and roots already in comparison to ranged classes' general lack of escape mechanisms? Don't get me wrong, I like the idea of both Carnage and Vengeance having a root on the skill, but current Unstoppable + Ravage root = overkill. Looking at this issue as a sorc main, jugg alt, but the combination seems overly strong vs other classes, too, notably if escape tools are on cooldown.

Believer makes good points, as always. My level 43 marauder is pretty brainless, even as Carnage where I'm watching for procs to line up my burst, which given how little I play it, is taking me a while to really get down. I know that my damage output is much higher than my sorc's was at that level, way back in 1.3. Taking into consideration that now I'm more familiar with gearing and the game's mechanics, that would make sense, but the mara is much, much easier to play, period. My juggernaut, regardless of where I take her, be it raids or warzones, is derpy as hell. Enrage, charge, smash, crush, obliterate, vicious slash to get smash off cd, smash. In mostly partisan gear, she does stupid amounts of damage for next to no effort. In raids, all I look for is ravage and vicious throw procs and the scream autocrit buff. I've always felt like I did more damage on her, even back when EC was endgame. There's no challenge to mid-range gameplay as jugg dps, and it's boring. I play the sorc because of the challenge, the intensity and enjoyment that being a squishy ranged class provides. I love Lightning, but since I only raid on occasion and primarily yolo queue, I can't play it and expect to contribute except against really bad teams or the occasional reg queue I do. We all hate comparing SWTOR to WoW, but when it comes down to class balance, especially pvp, it's necessary. Ranged casters in WoW are highly competitive, as the Blizzcon streams demonstrated and as memory serves from years ago. Melee are powerful and can be devastating, but they don't dominate the game as they do here. Ranged classes have no real means of keeping melee away; we have tools to get them off us, but nothing to really keep them off, while gap closers are rampant. Warriors with their leaps, roots and snares, operatives with their stuns and rolls (weakest but fully irritating), assassins with their snare, sprint and massive burst, bounty hunters with hydraulic overrides, powertechs with pulls, all of them are extremely capable of getting a target into melee and keeping it there. What to ranged have? Sorcs have a bad knockback with an optional weak root, weak mezzes, roots that are only available through high-tier talents, a generally useless sprint under focus from melee. Mercs have a nice knockback and hydraulic overrides with a couple half-decent defensive cds. Snipers have a fair amount of ranged control, but can't counter smashers effectively. While wanting to be a different game from the other notable MMOs out there makes sense and is understandable, the one thing that BioWare hasn't been doing is learning from them. Class balance overall, and I mean that very vaguely, is alright. For everyone under NiM content, it's almost perfect. For those in regular pvp, it's fine. Skilled players will wipe the floor with the unskilled. However, the balance issues become glaring at higher levels of play. Pvp shouldn't require skill levels on par with Mudclot, Xenobia, Thurinlore, Seaney, Glory, Mathrim, Razbot et al. to make a class viable. I've been told I'm good, but I know I'm not great, in part due to equipment and in larger part due to not being a top-tier player like those mentioned. Despite that fact, surviving in solo queues is supremely challenging; often I have the highest amount of damage taken thanks to being tunneled by melee, and I'd assume the same is true for many other sorcs out there. We need changes, and BioWare's slowly acknowledging it, but they need to redesign melee as well. When I played WoW, I had two mains over the years: a warlock and a death knight. The lock had relatively few defenses, most notable stamina stacking, but it had a spammable cc. Controlling and bursting an opponent wasn't terribly difficult if you knew what you were doing, and it also was fairly squishy outside of the broken SL/SL spec. The death knight was a hybrid class; it could be either tank or dps and had a relatively spammable self heal in death strike. It had a couple snares and roots, as well as a pull, but wasn't really overpowered after a couple balance patches. All of this was years into the game's existence when the balance team had a good amount of experience under their collective belt, but again, this was years before SWTOR existed. Warriors had a slow and a charge, but were very gear-dependent for their effectiveness. The question I have to ask is why hasn't the team (or guy) in Austin been able to pick up on the flaws in their (his) design when other games out there aren't making the same mistakes? I get that it's not an easy job, especially for a small team or moreso for a single person, to balance eight classes in both pve and pvp, but the disparity we're seeing is atrocious. Anecdotal evidence here: over the weekend my very casual guild got a sm tfb queue and I'd decided to heal it on my embarrassingly badly geared operative. Our other healer was a pvp-geared sorc. We had no healing issues at all. Yes, it was sm, but an operative shouldn't be able to raid heal without problems in a mishmash of 50, partisan and crafted 50+ gear, particularly at a mediocre skill level as I esteem myself in that role. The only stressful fights were a couple sloppy trash pulls and the final boss, again largely due to sloppiness. Bottom line, we need better escape tools. Melee need fewer gap closers and less control. In no rational circumstance should a highly survivable melee have superior damage, gap closers and control to a low-survivability ranged. We are glass cannons without the boom. Never should a class be so utterly reliant on the skill level of its teammates on top of the skill level of its player. I find my sorc to be highly enjoyable, I do. It's just incredibly disheartening to look at an enemy team and immediately say, "focus the sorc," while simultaneously playing one. TL;DR - buff sorc escape mechanisms and possibly oomf, nerf melee gap closers and fix your damned game, BioWare.

I'm fairly certain you're overestimating how much DPS would change with instant TB. It will take a global, so that reduces the effective cast time to 1.5s, shaving off only half a second. You'd be getting an extra LS every third TB, which wouldn't be a huge increase overall. On a crit, let's say 4-5k (not sure what it comes out to be in full pve gear, space that out over 33 seconds. It's probably about as much as a DPS improvement as would be needed in pve. Numbers could be slightly off as I'm thinking about this during a wipe. With further thought, keeping the CD at 9s would give the extra LS every 27 seconds, which still isn't a huge increase. Increasing the cost to compensate would be a better choice, or at the very least dropping the cast to somewhere around .5 to 1s instead of that monster 2s. Last edit for coherence. Don't post tired, folks.

LS could take a hit in its damage to compensate. Honestly, it shouldn't have been buffed with 2.0 instead of TB.

I was on my jugg in Void Star on the bridges when another jugg decided to push me off as I pushed him off. It was a lot like getting hit by a void zone oh heroic LK.

The vast majority of issues this class has are in pvp, from which perspective I am looking. In 67s, the average TB hit is in the mid-high 6ks, with luckier hits getting upward of 8k based on relic procs and target expertise. I've seen it hit for almost 10k in the open world on players with no pvp gear, but that's irrelevant. TB currently sits at around 11 seconds between casts because of cast time and cooldown. Increase the CD to 12 seconds, remove the cast time and possibly increase the cost and you've kept it balanced. Procs are fine in pve (although not currently for Vengeance... that's a horrible rate), but are more often than not a liability in pvp. The only viable sorc spec in ranked pvp is Madness, and that's with a high skill level and a good team. Remove either of those factors and you're going to lose. Lightning's absolutely horrible without a premade team to keep you up, and Corruption's too easily shut down as well, which is why this thread is focusing on Lightning and Corruption despite the many attempts to make it about Madness by some. Pvp changes can easily be made without affecting the pve meta, and what I've been suggesting takes that into consideration. If you're not casting TB any more frequently because of an increased CD, it's not going to up the DPS against a boss; however, if you're able to actually get damage off under pressure in pvp it's going to make the spec far more viable and accessible. Oh, and to list the procs in Lightning: Affliction procs fast FL LS and TB proc instant, free CL LS, TB and CL proc extra damage LS and CL proc stacking 1% bonus damage CD procs double ticks All of our primary damaging spells have procs associated with them. All of them.