[Petition] - Pyro/Assault PT/VG - Keep Bursting Flame as is on Live

[So-low]

Would have posted this in PTS forums but they are closed now. I am posting this in the PVP section because I believe the QOL issue this causes is mostly PVP related. Also posting in Class forums.

 

I will be using PT terminology but as usual this all applies to VG mirror.

 

On the PTS they reworked the "Bursting Flame" talent so that Flame Burst would only give a 60% chance to apply the CGC DOT instead of the 100% chance it's had since release. In return they made it so Rocket Punch has a 100% chance to apply the DOT.

 

This is a very large QOL decrease, especially for PVPers. One of the reasons I/we rolled this class and spec was because it was difference from other melee and ranged classes - it had a 10m range for its "bread and butter" ability (flame burst dot). Being able to maintain a distance of 10m to use our main ability which also resets rail shot is/was a core function of the class. By implementing this change you are forcing this spec to be a more melee heavy (4m) spec to be able to put out reliable damage. This goes against the original design principles of the class which is not good.

 

IMHO this kills the spec. I played it on the PTS extensively and it ended up just feeling clunky and awkward with positioning and the required new rotation priority to maintain damage.

 

Don't get me wrong. I love the new defensive capabilities of the pyro spec and the lower cost of Incendiary Missile. I also like the buffs to tactics. But none of that changes the fact that the change to the Bursting Flame Skill is a QOL decrease.

 

Pyro and assault players sign here if you agree this skill needs to stay the same as on live.

 

Other things to note (but not part of the petition):

- I am not advocating for Pyro PTS to be faceroll easy. If the devs want to increase the skill cap on the class, great. Just not like this with QOL decreases.

- It would be really nice if Thermal Det damage was frontloaded with no dot. I realize that the DOT effect helps PVE-ers because it is elemental damage which ignores armor, so the Devs would need to change the damage type/amount or give it armor pen to keep everyone happy.

- Rail shot should either have it's armor pen increased to what it was before the nerf --OR--increase the CGC or IM damage by 25%. Both would be OP, but their nerf to both after 2.0 was too much.

Edited September 20, 2013 by So-low

[ErikGW]

I agree that forcing us to rocket punch is pretty lame.

 

Realistically though, I end up spamming a few flame bursts to get the rail shot proc so i don't know how much it would really change the way i play since i would often get that 60% hit and never notice a difference.

 

But i use a hybrid build because i don't think thermal detonator is worth the points.

[T-Assassin]

I agree that forcing us to rocket punch is pretty lame.

 

Realistically though, I end up spamming a few flame bursts to get the rail shot proc so i don't know how much it would really change the way i play since i would often get that 60% hit and never notice a difference.

 

But i use a hybrid build because i don't think thermal detonator is worth the points.

 

TD will be worth it after 2.4, IM will not. and, since you will be picking up the extra defenses high up in the tree, might as well pick up TD. Pyro/Assault spec, that is. And that is for PvP only!!! (PvE, it is still a wash with other specs and the almighty RNG)

 

the nerfs to FB and IM are pretty bad, to an already DPS starved AC.

 

I play my VG as a kiter. the only thing I am doing within 4m is interrupting, even with the changes to RP on PTS. I've parsed it hundreds of times and it usually comes out as a wash versus FB-RS-FB-Rail rotation. thanks RNG.

 

from live to 2.4 FB "spam" and IM is about a 150-200 DPS LOSS, on average. and with TD being roughly a 100 DPS gain, these so called "DPS Buffs" couldn't be further from the truth. (from my experience)

 

I agree So-low...TERRIBLE changes that only further nerf the PT/VG, offensively.

 

but, nothing we say, prove via parsing, etc. will change the minds of the combat "team" and their metrics.

 

so the ~100 DPS "buff" from full Pyro/Assault TD/AP (which is a wash due to the almost 100 DPS LOSS from IR/IM)is going to put us ~5% of snipers and marauders and other top performing AC's in PvP or OPs?

 

not a chance in hell.

[So-low]

I agree that forcing us to rocket punch is pretty lame.

 

Realistically though, I end up spamming a few flame bursts to get the rail shot proc so i don't know how much it would really change the way i play since i would often get that 60% hit and never notice a difference.

 

But i use a hybrid build because i don't think thermal detonator is worth the points.

 

Keep in mind that when flame burst applies CGC, it also applies the first tick of CGC immediately. So for example a 3.5k flameburst + CGC insta-tick turns into a 4-5k hit. Therefore nerfing it to 60% chance also nerfs our on-demand burst and puts it up to RNG (yay RNG).

 

I feel like everyone is being fooled into thinking pyro is ok because of a few defensive buffs. Our damage is still crap compared to other classes. We are the madness sins of bounty hunters!

 

TD will be worth it after 2.4, IM will not.

 

Even with the reduced cost of IM in 2.4 (16 instead of 25) you still don't think it will be worth it? Or are they nerfing the IM damage as well?

Edited September 21, 2013 by So-low

[Skinnychalk]

Even with the reduced cost of IM in 2.4 (16 instead of 25) you still don't think it will be worth it? Or are they nerfing the IM damage as well?

 

Yes its Damage is being nerfed as well.

 

Sadly though Bursting flame will not be kept as is but /Sign Pyro since launch.

[Brunner_Venda]

Yes its Damage is being nerfed as well.

 

Sadly though Bursting flame will not be kept as is but /Sign Pyro since launch.

 

They did it to nerf the hybrid specs. The damage in the upper tiers of pyro is almost completely non existent, so most PVE players pulled better DPS and defense by picking up low tier tank and AP skills like hot iron and hyper fuel.

 

Between retractable blade and IM, pyros were pulling decent damage on raids. So the devs nerfed both skills. They made up for it in AP by boosting immolate by 1-2K. They did a tiny amount to TD to make up for IM. The result? AP barely parses more than the hybrid pyro used to, and full pyro still doesn't measure up to either.

Edited September 21, 2013 by Brunner_Venda

[Tonev]

I have been sending in tickets on this from the VG side because I also think this changes the dynamic of the VG class from what it is currently (To me a melee flaming dot from stock strike@100% does not make any sense.), For what it's worth I have already petitioned this by canceling my account and my son's with some of the changes being my reason why.

 

Until they get the bugs out on VGs and understand why people are complaining of this, I'll show them my disapproval of the changes by not paying for a sub or buying from their cartel market anymore.

 

Wanna petition, cancel your sub with this being as your reason why.

[Brunner_Venda]

I decided to adapt, and take the middle tree. AP and tactics builds are going to be viable, enough so that the whining will probably hit the forums in the first week.

 

Remember, pyro sucks for mercs too, we aren't alone in that. Most AC's only have one or two viable trees, we're no different in that regard. We get two.

[T-Assassin]

They did it to nerf the hybrid specs. The damage in the upper tiers of pyro is almost completely non existent, so most PVE players pulled better DPS and defense by picking up low tier tank and AP skills like hot iron and hyper fuel.

 

Between retractable blade and IM, pyros were pulling decent damage on raids. So the devs nerfed both skills. They made up for it in AP by boosting immolate by 1-2K. They did a tiny amount to TD to make up for IM. The result? AP barely parses more than the hybrid pyro used to, and full pyro still doesn't measure up to either.

 

Everything you said is true

 

parroting my other posts concerning this, I'm not BiS (I just got my 72 barrel 2 days ago ), but the damage nerf to IR/IM is roughly ~100 DPS. Expect more in better gear.

 

the "buff" to AP/TD is roughly ~100 DPS. Expect more in better gear.

 

so, it's basically a wash.

 

but, with the defensive changes, which are a decent improvement, you are almost force to go full Pyro spec if you plan to PvP as Pyro.

 

In PvE, 8-8-30 is still viable, as it is within 80-100 DPS compared to full Pyro (on average, ~50 DPS). RNG has much to do with this. and you can stay >10m and enjoy the show, instead of staring at the boss's sack, (just my personal preference), or run around kiting when you have a tank that guards the healer in pugs

[SOULCASTER]

I agree with the OP. While this change was FANTASTIC for Assault/Pyro Commando/Mercenaries, this was a bad change to Powertech/Vanguards, as their 100% dot chance has now dropped to a 60% RNG application.

 

RNG is bad folks. They need to leave the stock-strike/rocket-punch dot application in the tool-tip talent box, but bring the flame burst/ion-pulse back up to 100% IMO.

[easeyway]

As someone who's played Pyrotech Powertech since early access, I'm going to destroy this petition. Pay attention, you might learn something.

 

No, the changes to Bursting Flame gives us an extra talent to proc the CGC DoT. This is good. Why? Because, RP is supposed to be your main Rail Shot resetter. But, since you should also RS a target affected by CGC DoT, because of the refresh mechanism, this brings up a possible problem. In live, you sometimes have to use FB to get the DoT running after a successful RP rail proc. This is wasted heat. The change allows better use of RP.

 

And, if you're not using RP, then you're not playing the spec right.

 

Also, our Rapid Shots has a combined chance on average, to grant the CGC DoT nearly 100% of time. Combined with Rail Shot DoT reset mechanism, and the new RP 100%, FB 60% chance, you will have no problems keeping the DoT on target. If you do, again, you're doing something wrong. If you wish to spam the DoT on multiple targets, you have to spec Volatire Igniter (I don't suggest this in PvP as DoTs in general are bad, especially in multiple targets).

 

This is a buff. Go test it on the PTS, instead of crying when they change things for the better. People complained when they increased Rail reset chance while adding the 6 second internal cooldown to it too. This is the same thing. That buff too gave us increased heat management and damage. But, still people who didn't test it themselves cried about it.

 

Also, as to the first tick of CGC DoT proccing while using FB. This is something that they have to adjust the metrics for. That means adding the damage to somewhere else. This is good too, as a spec that forces people to use one talent with no CD to slow, add a DoT, and refresh CD on the main hitter, is bad and boring.

 

tl:dr: Keep the buff to Bursting Flame.

Edited September 21, 2013 by easeyway

[So-low]

As someone who's played Pyrotech Powertech since early access, I'm going to destroy this petition. Pay attention, you might learn something.

 

No, the changes to Bursting Flame gives us an extra talent to proc the CGC DoT. This is good. Why? Because, RP is supposed to be your main Rail Shot resetter. But, since you should also RS a target affected by CGC DoT, because of the refresh mechanism, this brings up a possible problem. In live, you sometimes have to use FB to get the DoT running after a successful RP rail proc. This is wasted heat. The change allows better use of RP.

 

And, if you're not using RP, then you're not playing the spec right.

 

Also, our Rapid Shots has a combined chance on average, to grant the CGC DoT nearly 100% of time. Combined with Rail Shot DoT reset mechanism, and the new RP 100%, FB 60% chance, you will have no problems keeping the DoT on target. If you do, again, you're doing something wrong. If you wish to spam the DoT on multiple targets, you have to spec Volatire Igniter (I don't suggest this in PvP as DoTs in general are bad, especially in multiple targets).

 

This is a buff. Go test it on the PTS, instead of crying when they change things for the better. People complained when they increased Rail reset chance while adding the 6 second internal cooldown to it too. This is the same thing. That buff too gave us increased heat management and damage. But, still people who didn't test it themselves cried about it.

 

Also, as to the first tick of CGC DoT proccing while using FB. This is something that they have to adjust the metrics for. That means adding the damage to somewhere else. This is good too, as a spec that forces people to use one talent with no CD to slow, add a DoT, and refresh CD on the main hitter, is bad and boring.

 

tl:dr: Keep the buff to Bursting Flame.

 

As a pyro/assault player since launch, I can tell from this post that you mainly PVE. When you are kiting a marauder for most of a WZ/arena, you can't decide to stop running, go up to him, rocket punch him, then go back to running, just to keep your sustained damage up. There have also been mathy posts explaining why only using FB to proc RS can be a good thing due to it doing superior (elemental) damage (if RNG is on your side).

 

Don't get me wrong, I still use rocket punch when I am not kiting and can afford to go into 4m range and my RS has 10s left on CD after a proc. But as a PvPer, I am almost always kiting.

 

Also, adding the 6 second internal CD to RS reset was a buff? LOL

 

Go back to your PVE son.

[T-Assassin]

As a pyro/assault player since launch, I can tell from this post that you mainly PVE. When you are kiting a marauder for most of a WZ/arena, you can't decide to stop running, go up to him, rocket punch him, then go back to running, just to keep your sustained damage up. There have also been mathy posts explaining why only using FB to proc RS can be a good thing due to it doing superior (elemental) damage (if RNG is on your side).

 

Don't get me wrong, I still use rocket punch when I am not kiting and can afford to go into 4m range and my RS has 10s left on CD after a proc. But as a PvPer, I am almost always kiting.

 

Also, adding the 6 second internal CD to RS reset was a buff? LOL

 

couldn't have said it better myself.

 

I have also played Merc/PT pyro, since it was Firebug in beta I guess I've been doing it wrong for quite some time now.

 

which I definitely find ironic, since I've held #1 overall DPS spots on TORPARSE in FPs and OPs (SM and HM), as well as, #3 server parse in 61's. (when 63's were BiS)

 

my EXTENSIVE parsing shows using RP/SS as a wash...the ONLY thing I do >10m is interrupt.

 

as a server 1st BM, I've had a little experience in PvP...and the only "buffs" Pyro/Assault received were in the defensive department, and a minor (laughable) increase to burst, via the sarcastically OP TD/AP buff.

 

after about 100 parses, I still parse higher on live as 8-8-30, than in ANY spec I tested on PTS (except once...which was 8 DPS higher on PTS...8)

 

p.s. out of my 20 highest parses using Riot Augs versus 20 highest parses not using RIOT Augs...the average damage of SS was 10 DPS higher with RA than w/out...hardly 6%...EDIT: and on average, w/ RA is ~40-50 DPS LOSS versus w/out.

 

taking RNG into account, and running over 100 parses (on dummies and in FP's), MY testing has show using SS is a wash...and, with my incorrect play style, i'd rather kite and stay >9m <10m.

Edited September 21, 2013 by T-Assassin

[easeyway]

As a pyro/assault player since launch, I can tell from this post that you mainly PVE. When you are kiting a marauder for most of a WZ/arena, you can't decide to stop running, go up to him, rocket punch him, then go back to running, just to keep your sustained damage up. There have also been mathy posts explaining why only using FB to proc RS can be a good thing due to it doing superior (elemental) damage (if RNG is on your side).

 

Don't get me wrong, I still use rocket punch when I am not kiting and can afford to go into 4m range and my RS has 10s left on CD after a proc. But as a PvPer, I am almost always kiting.

 

Also, adding the 6 second internal CD to RS reset was a buff? LOL

 

Go back to your PVE son.

 

Funny you would say that, given the fact that I was the Pyro in the team reaching 3k rating EU first (Warmonger)...But, that's the past.

 

Anyway, strafing allows you quite well to kite a marauder, and RP. You should try it. Have you ever used Hydraulic Overrides? Also, you do realize that you don't always wanna be 10m against them, as leap is bad, right?

 

And also - from your post - I can tell that you are just the kind of people I warned about in my last post, who complain about changes. Any changes.

 

Yes, the 6 second internal cd part was a buff. Overall. See, we didn't have 45%/60% chances back then, do you even remember what they were? Tell me (if you're early access, you should know). So, while they added the CD, they actually buffed us in overall damage and heat management. Well, you cannot see this, because you do not understand a simple concept of probability and average. You just had to learn to cast 2 abilities between your Flame Burst spams. I guess you had trouble with that too.

 

Oh, and about the kiting...See, FB slows the target 40% every single time. 100% chance. Did you forget to test, or can you not read (the patch notes)?

 

Any other arguments you wanna throw at me that I can destroy, like I destroyed this petition?

 

P.S: I guess you have to grow balls and get to that 4m range we're supposed to get more often now. Oh wait, you must be the same people complaining about a gap closer too? I guess we won't be needing that then. Remind me why we wanted that? Since apparently we don't want to go to 4m range. Never, ever. Better remove Grapple too. Along with Rocket Punch. And Flame Sweep. Why do we even have those?

Edited September 22, 2013 by easeyway

[Wilsu_Addar]

Funny you would say that, given the fact that I was the Pyro in the team reaching 3k rating EU first (Warmonger)...But, that's the past.

 

Anyway, strafing allows you quite well to kite a marauder, and RP. You should try it. Have you ever used Hydraulic Overrides? Also, you do realize that you don't always wanna be 10m against them, as leap is bad, right?

 

And also - from your post - I can tell that you are just the kind of people I warned about in my last post, who complain about changes. Any changes.

 

Yes, the 6 second internal cd part was a buff. Overall. See, we didn't have 45%/60% chances back then, do you even remember what they were? Tell me (if you're early access, you should know). So, while they added the CD, they actually buffed us in overall damage and heat management. Well, you cannot see this, because you do not understand a simple concept of probability and average. You just had to learn to cast 2 abilities between your Flame Burst spams. I guess you had trouble with that too.

 

Oh, and about the kiting...See, FB slows the target 40% every single time. 100% chance. Did you forget to test, or can you not read (the patch notes)?

 

Any other arguments you wanna throw at me that I can destroy, like I destroyed this petition?

 

P.S: I guess you have to grow balls and get to that 4m range we're supposed to get more often now. Oh wait, you must be the same people complaining about a gap closer too? I guess we won't be needing that then. Remind me why we wanted that? Since apparently we don't want to go to 4m range. Never, ever. Better remove Grapple too. Along with Rocket Punch. And Flame Sweep. Why do we even have those?

 

Pure ownage. From one intelligent pyro to another..../salute.

[Brunner_Venda]

couldn't have said it better myself.

 

I have also played Merc/PT pyro, since it was Firebug in beta I guess I've been doing it wrong for quite some time now.

 

which I definitely find ironic, since I've held #1 overall DPS spots on TORPARSE in FPs and OPs (SM and HM), as well as, #3 server parse in 61's. (when 63's were BiS)

 

my EXTENSIVE parsing shows using RP/SS as a wash...the ONLY thing I do >10m is interrupt.

 

as a server 1st BM, I've had a little experience in PvP...and the only "buffs" Pyro/Assault received were in the defensive department, and a minor (laughable) increase to burst, via the sarcastically OP TD/AP buff.

 

after about 100 parses, I still parse higher on live as 8-8-30, than in ANY spec I tested on PTS (except once...which was 8 DPS higher on PTS...8)

 

p.s. out of my 20 highest parses using Riot Augs versus 20 highest parses not using RIOT Augs...the average damage of SS was 10 DPS higher with RA than w/out...hardly 6%...EDIT: and on average, w/ RA is ~40-50 DPS LOSS versus w/out.

 

taking RNG into account, and running over 100 parses (on dummies and in FP's), MY testing has show using SS is a wash...and, with my incorrect play style, i'd rather kite and stay >9m <10m.

 

What gear did you test tactics with? I know it doesn't gain anything from the elim set, but with combat tech I understand it parses higher by 100 or more. Also, you have to interleave shoulder rockets on every GCD while explosive fuel is up. Harder to do in real PVP, but definitely possible if you're good.

[easeyway]

Pure ownage. From one intelligent pyro to another..../salute.

 

Salute.

Edited September 22, 2013 by easeyway

[Aelaias]

Blah, blah.

 

My current rotation utilizes everything the spec offers because the only way to truly squeeze burst ouf it is by throwing everything and the kitchen sink at the target (the name I chose for my rotation). Guaranteed plasma cell from stock strike works exctremely well because it ensures that I don't have to preapply the dot and lose a gcd or risk resetting the refresh cooldown. Having said that, under the best and most unlikely circumstances with all of my tech abilities critting in the neigborhood of 3.5-5k (x3) followed up by a 5-6k hib+ 500-1100 PC tick leaves target with plenty of reserves and the only thing I can offer is burnout (LOL). Ion pulse with a guaranteed pc burn hits for at least 2k but if critting in the execute stage can hit for 3-3.5k +1.2k pc. This is not exactly execute level damage but it's something. Which we will not have. New assault plastique isn't making up for that so good luck with that burst.

Edited September 23, 2013 by Aelaias

[T-Assassin]

What gear did you test tactics with? I know it doesn't gain anything from the elim set, but with combat tech I understand it parses higher by 100 or more. Also, you have to interleave shoulder rockets on every GCD while explosive fuel is up. Harder to do in real PVP, but definitely possible if you're good.

 

I didn't test tactics, at all. I don't care for the spec.

 

And yes, normally, I would be using MV, SC, PC, adrenals, and relic. This was controlled testing on rotations, and comparing the "buffs" and "nerfs" from live to PTS.

 

again, i'm not BiS, 69/69/66, mostly. No set bonuses.

 

[So-low]

Funny you would say that, given the fact that I was the Pyro in the team reaching 3k rating EU first (Warmonger)...But, that's the past.

 

Anyway, strafing allows you quite well to kite a marauder, and RP. You should try it. Have you ever used Hydraulic Overrides? Also, you do realize that you don't always wanna be 10m against them, as leap is bad, right?

 

And also - from your post - I can tell that you are just the kind of people I warned about in my last post, who complain about changes. Any changes.

 

Yes, the 6 second internal cd part was a buff. Overall. See, we didn't have 45%/60% chances back then, do you even remember what they were? Tell me (if you're early access, you should know). So, while they added the CD, they actually buffed us in overall damage and heat management. Well, you cannot see this, because you do not understand a simple concept of probability and average. You just had to learn to cast 2 abilities between your Flame Burst spams. I guess you had trouble with that too.

 

Oh, and about the kiting...See, FB slows the target 40% every single time. 100% chance. Did you forget to test, or can you not read (the patch notes)?

 

Any other arguments you wanna throw at me that I can destroy, like I destroyed this petition?

 

P.S: I guess you have to grow balls and get to that 4m range we're supposed to get more often now. Oh wait, you must be the same people complaining about a gap closer too? I guess we won't be needing that then. Remind me why we wanted that? Since apparently we don't want to go to 4m range. Never, ever. Better remove Grapple too. Along with Rocket Punch. And Flame Sweep. Why do we even have those?

 

You have a comprehension problem. You have kited melee before on your PT right? Or are you one of those pro face-tankers?

 

Using strafing and hydraulic overrides does not change the fact that we need to get into 4m range of classes such as Marauders/Juggs/Sins/etc to sustain our damage, putting us into position to get attacked and stunned. FB slow does not change this either, as we will still have to go into 4m range to use RP, regardless if thy are slowed. To properly use our class and kite melee we need to stay within 6-9m.

 

Also, when did I say we never wanted to go into 4m range? Doing so is completely fine if the melee we are attacking is attacking someone else. You see, there is a little thing called target of target that the better players use that can tell us these things. You should try it some time. If you are attacking a ranged then going/grappling within melee range is great to harass them interrupt them.

 

You are clearly one of those people who think every change is a buff. BW themselves admitted that PT damage was nerfed in 2.0. But I guess you are too pro at your PT to acknowledge this, amirite? I hate to use the cliché, but you are sounding like a fanboy.

 

As a side note, I have never complained about PT changes until now, because I (and many others) feel this change destroys the 10m nature of this class.

 

I could spend more of my time refuting your inane and baseless statements, but I have better things to do at the moment. I do however look forward to reading more of your third-grade level writing style and debate techniques. It gives me some entertainment while I'm at work.

[T-Assassin]

My current rotation utilizes everything the spec offers because the only way to truly squeeze burst ouf it is by throwing everything and the kitchen sink at the target (the name I chose for my rotation). Guaranteed plasma cell from stock strike works exctremely well because it ensures that I don't have to preapply the dot and lose a gcd or risk resetting the refresh cooldown. Having said that, under the best and most unlikely circumstances with all of my tech abilities critting in the neigborhood of 3.5-5k (x3) followed up by a 5-6k hib+ 500-1100 PC tick leaves target with plenty of reserves and the only thing I can offer is burnout (LOL). Ion pulse with a guaranteed pc burn hits for at least 2k but if critting in the execute stage can hit for 3-3.5k +1.2k pc. This is not exactly execute level damage but it's something. Which we will not have. New assault plastique isn't making up for that so good luck with that burst.

 

yeah burst is still garbage. math is a hard thing to explain to those that do not understand it.

 

all else aside, 2.4 does not put a full pyro spec anywhere near top performing DPS AC's.

 

and IP not proc'ing PC 100% is a NERF to damage.

 

and all I've done is prove this through parsing...not enough for some. but, everybody is allowed their opinions, and personal play styles.

 

I just want the Assault/Pyro DPS spec to be competitive at....DPS!!

[easeyway]

There have also been mathy posts explaining why only using FB to proc RS can be a good thing due to it doing superior (elemental) damage (if RNG is on your side).

 

Don't get me wrong, I still use rocket punch when I am not kiting and can afford to go into 4m range and my RS has 10s left on CD after a proc. But as a PvPer, I am almost always kiting.

.

 

 

You have a comprehension problem. You have kited melee before on your PT right? Or are you one of those pro face-tankers?

 

Using strafing and hydraulic overrides does not change the fact that we need to get into 4m range of classes such as Marauders/Juggs/Sins/etc to sustain our damage, putting us into position to get attacked and stunned. FB slow does not change this either, as we will still have to go into 4m range to use RP, regardless if thy are slowed. To properly use our class and kite melee we need to stay within 6-9m.

 

Also, when did I say we never wanted to go into 4m range? Doing so is completely fine if the melee we are attacking is attacking someone else. You see, there is a little thing called target of target that the better players use that can tell us these things. You should try it some time. If you are attacking a ranged then going/grappling within melee range is great to harass them interrupt them.

 

You are clearly one of those people who think every change is a buff. BW themselves admitted that PT damage was nerfed in 2.0. But I guess you are too pro at your PT to acknowledge this, amirite? I hate to use the cliché, but you are sounding like a fanboy.

 

As a side note, I have never complained about PT changes until now, because I (and many others) feel this change destroys the 10m nature of this class.

 

I could spend more of my time refuting your inane and baseless statements, but I have better things to do at the moment. I do however look forward to reading more of your third-grade level writing style and debate techniques. It gives me some entertainment while I'm at work.

 

Dude, don't get me started. You're way out of your league here...

 

First, you claim that FB "can be good", meaning what exactly, that it's better than RP? Also, why don't you present the math to me, instead of covering behind someone else's math. Are you perhaps talking about armor ratings? Then the very next sentence is you saying that you still use RP when "you can afford it"...Logic fail. Hard. If FB is superior, why "risk yourself" to use RP then? Remove RP from your rotation, if FB is indeed superior.

 

Next, we can argue all day how to play in certain situations. The truth is, whether you should close the gap to 4m to RP or try to kite, is highly situational. Depends on LoS, heals, CDs, Procs, etc. The fact is that you are losing 40% chance from the initial CGC DoT proc of FB, that's not worth much damage to begin with. But, what you get in return is that same initial CGC DoT to two talents, and a buffed 6 seconds slow that can be cast AoE as needed, and neither has a CD to it (Flame Burst, Flame Sweep). And, you complain about kiting? I could understand the fact that now it's somewhat harder to close the gap from 30m to that 10m, but in 10m? You gotta be kidding me?

 

Third, the better of players know how to swap targets. Also, all marauders are smashers these days. You don't want to go to 4m with all your buddies standing close to each other..."But...But he wasn't targeting me!!!"

 

And then, you admit you have no idea what I'm talking about when I talk about the changes in the past. I said the 6 second internal CD was a buff. You said "LOL". I said check your patch notes and tell me why it was. Clearly you don't know, since you changed the subject to 2.0.

 

Ok, I'll help you. In 1.2 our chances to proc rail with FB was increased to 45% from 30%, and with RP from 45% to 60%. That is a considerable buff. You missed it. In 1.4, the range of our TD and IM was reduced to 10m only. Also, our slow was reduced from 50% to 30%. These were nerfs to our class. And yes, the CGC DoT was nerfed in 2.0. I never said anything about 2.0. But, I'll say this: I'm glad they did. Because I always wanted to get away from spamming FB. One talent with no CD did too much. If only they would've put that damage loss to somewhere else, but that's another story.

 

You make the argument "they are nerfing our 10 meter kiting power". How so? They increased the slow to 40%, and it still procs 100% of time? This is a buff to kiting prowess in 10m, so you are the one with the comprehension problem. But, you haven't tested any of this, so you don't even know what I'm talking about, do you? Before making petitions like this, please test to know what the changes were actually about.

 

So, I've pointed out your mistakes in a quite many areas of your posts. For once in your life, admit you are wrong, and we can - I don't know - maybe focus on new ideas for our class, instead of bringing back old, broken mechanics.

 

TL : DR: Please explain to me how they are destroying the 10 meter nature of the class. Do you not understand that FB still slows targets with 100% chance, and that the slow was increased to 40% (from 30%), debunking your whole argument???

 

"Sweltering Heat has been redesigned: While Combustible Gas Cylinder is active, damage dealt by Flame Burst and Flame Sweep both have a 50/100% chance to reduce the target’s movement speed by 40% for 6 seconds."

 

Read it. Read it again. And again. Then repeat after me: "I have a comprehension problem".

 

Then apologize to me, or crawl back to the hole you came from.

 

Do you want ice for that burn?

Edited September 23, 2013 by easeyway

[Zyntharion]

Man **** got serious in this thread!

[mrekxxx]

You have a comprehension problem. You have kited melee before on your PT right? Or are you one of those pro face-tankers?

 

Using strafing and hydraulic overrides does not change the fact that we need to get into 4m range of classes such as Marauders/Juggs/Sins/etc to sustain our damage, putting us into position to get attacked and stunned. FB slow does not change this either, as we will still have to go into 4m range to use RP, regardless if thy are slowed. To properly use our class and kite melee we need to stay within 6-9m.

 

Also, when did I say we never wanted to go into 4m range? Doing so is completely fine if the melee we are attacking is attacking someone else. You see, there is a little thing called target of target that the better players use that can tell us these things. You should try it some time. If you are attacking a ranged then going/grappling within melee range is great to harass them interrupt them.

 

You are clearly one of those people who think every change is a buff. BW themselves admitted that PT damage was nerfed in 2.0. But I guess you are too pro at your PT to acknowledge this, amirite? I hate to use the cliché, but you are sounding like a fanboy.

 

As a side note, I have never complained about PT changes until now, because I (and many others) feel this change destroys the 10m nature of this class.

 

I could spend more of my time refuting your inane and baseless statements, but I have better things to do at the moment. I do however look forward to reading more of your third-grade level writing style and debate techniques. It gives me some entertainment while I'm at work.

 

don't cry and l2p ... are you man or woman?

[So-low]

Dude, don't get me started. You're way out of your league here...

 

First, you claim that FB "can be good", meaning what exactly, that it's better than RP? Also, why don't you present the math to me, instead of covering behind someone else's math. Are you perhaps talking about armor ratings? Then the very next sentence is you saying that you still use RP when "you can afford it"...Logic fail. Hard. If FB is superior, why "risk yourself" to use RP then? Remove RP from your rotation, if FB is indeed superior.

 

FB>RP for kiting because a) it is elemental damage b) it auto-procced the first tick of CGC giving it extra frontloaded burst and c) it applies the slow. I use RP when I am *not* kiting and hitting a target that is not chasing me therefore does not need to be slowed, etc. Usually a ranged that is targeting someone else. There is little risk in this situation as compared to taking a break from kiting the melee to stop and walk within 4m and hope he doesn't attack or stun me. Also, I know it might be hard for someone like you to understand, but not all melee are mara smashers, bro.

 

Next, we can argue all day how to play in certain situations. The truth is, whether you should close the gap to 4m to RP or try to kite, is highly situational. Depends on LoS, heals, CDs, Procs, etc. The fact is that you are losing 40% chance from the initial CGC DoT proc of FB, that's not worth much damage to begin with. But, what you get in return is that same initial CGC DoT to two talents, and a buffed 6 seconds slow that can be cast AoE as needed, and neither has a CD to it (Flame Burst, Flame Sweep). And, you complain about kiting? I could understand the fact that now it's somewhat harder to close the gap from 30m to that 10m, but in 10m? You gotta be kidding me?

 

The choice to use RP and FB is situational, like I've ben explaining. Good to see you finally comprehended that from my posts. What you are missing, though, is a) (like I have previously explained )when FB procs the dot it also applies the first tick instantaneously, turning, for example, a 4k FB into a 5.5k hit. We are losing the reliability of this. b) That dot that FB applies allows the use of our main hard hitter, RS. If we are running around kiting at 9m spamming FB for the slow, crap RNG will have it not proc the dot, making us unable to RS our target, and therefore force us to enter melee range to RP the target to get our dot up. Our only other option will be to stop using our FB slow and use the ****** IM to apply a DOT and then RS, allowing our slow to fall off.

 

Third, the better of players know how to swap targets. Also, all marauders are smashers these days. You don't want to go to 4m with all your buddies standing close to each other..."But...But he wasn't targeting me!!!"

 

Again, I will state, not all melee are smahers. But that is beside the point, as you are making my point for me. As you have said you do NOT want to go into 4m range against a person in shi-cho form due to risk of getting smashed. Yet you still insist that going into RP a smasher is a good thing so we can sustain our damage? Without these changes we would just FB the smasher and auto-proc our dot and slow instead of risking ourselves in 4m range. How, again, is this change in said situation a good thing?

 

And then, you admit you have no idea what I'm talking about when I talk about the changes in the past. I said the 6 second internal CD was a buff. You said "LOL". I said check your patch notes and tell me why it was. Clearly you don't know, since you changed the subject to 2.0.

 

Ok, I'll help you. In 1.2 our chances to proc rail with FB was increased to 45% from 30%, and with RP from 45% to 60%. That is a considerable buff. You missed it. In 1.4, the range of our TD and IM was reduced to 10m only. Also, our slow was reduced from 50% to 30%. These were nerfs to our class. And yes, the CGC DoT was nerfed in 2.0. I never said anything about 2.0. But, I'll say this: I'm glad they did. Because I always wanted to get away from spamming FB. One talent with no CD did too much. If only they would've put that damage loss to somewhere else, but that's another story.

 

I do indeed know exactly what you are talking about. And no, it wasn't a buff. Our actual and theoretical damage and spike damage went DOWN after this change. Limiting the number of RSs we could do in a certain period of time is a nerf, despite slightly increase chances on the proc. Back then we were using FB so often that we were proccing RS well under the 6s rate limit it is now. General (correct) consensus among the PT/VG community was that this was a NERF. Attempting to state otherwise is foolish and only hurts what little is left of your arguments.

 

Based on "you are glad the nerfed the CGC dot in 2.0" you prove once again you are one of those pros who thinks the 2.0 changes were good... what I can't tell if you are just being a contrarian for the purpose of trolling or are actually glad we got nerfed, in which case one would start to wonder if you actually have a PT main or an Op healer who got touched in the wrong place.

 

You make the argument "they are nerfing our 10 meter kiting power". How so? They increased the slow to 40%, and it still procs 100% of time? This is a buff to kiting prowess in 10m, so you are the one with the comprehension problem. But, you haven't tested any of this, so you don't even know what I'm talking about, do you? Before making petitions like this, please test to know what the changes were actually about.

 

There are nerfing our 10m kiting AND killing power. Part of our 10m kiting was being able to use FB to auto proc the DOT AND reset our RS. Now, our ability to use RS while kiting will depend on RNG or wasting a GCD on the **** ability IM. The slow on FB (which used to be 50% and not 40% and was applied with any CGC dot, FB or otherwise pre-2.0), means very little when will be forced into walking up to the melee we are kiting to RP them and hope they don't smash/maul/ravage/whatever us. It's just not viable. If you think otherwise then please enjoy getting annihilated. Also, not that it pertains to this little discussion we're having (I only mention it because you brought it up), I have tested 100+ arenas, winning 90+% of them, albeit not really enjoyably and fluidly like I'd have expected in the past.

 

So, I've pointed out your mistakes in a quite many areas of your posts. For once in your life, admit you are wrong, and we can - I don't know - maybe focus on new ideas for our class, instead of bringing back old, broken mechanics.

 

The only thing you have proven or pointed out is your lack of knowledge and experience with the Pyro PT. You have demonstrated time and time again that you are one of those "pros" who think every change is a good change. You need to wake up and realize that our class has been nerfed as much as any other class in the game, if not more. Trying to tell yourself otherwise is foolish and you are doing a disservice to your community and to yourself.

 

TL : DR: Please explain to me how they are destroying the 10 meter nature of the class. Do you not understand that FB still slows targets with 100% chance, and that the slow was increased to 40% (from 30%), debunking your whole argument???

 

I have gone over this plenty of times already. Please refer to my above text. Needless to say, your argument here is nonsensical and I implore you to rethink your stance on this before you embarrass yourself further.

 

"Sweltering Heat has been redesigned: While Combustible Gas Cylinder is active, damage dealt by Flame Burst and Flame Sweep both have a 50/100% chance to reduce the target’s movement speed by 40% for 6 seconds."

 

Read it. Read it again. And again. Then repeat after me: "I have a comprehension problem".

 

Then apologize to me, or crawl back to the hole you came from.[/size]

 

Once more, the slow means very little when you have to enter 4m range and RP the target. What about this do you not understand?

 

Do you want ice for that burn?

 

Save your ice, bro. You'll need it for when that melee you are facetanking destroys you. Don't forget to keyboard turn as you attempt to escape.

 

Let me give you some advice: stop posting. You are making a fool of yourself and are embarrasing the PT community. In addition, you need to take legal action against your state's schooling system. They have clearly failed you.

Edited September 23, 2013 by So-low