Shadows - Top 3 Questions

[Evolixe]

I shall pass this on to the development team. Although it is unlikely you will see answers to things outside of the top 3, your bonus section is indeed a good starting point for me to gather overall feedback.

 

-eric

 

Good stuff.

[T-Assassin]

the quote i was replying to said no class spams an ability more.

 

 

let's look at the dps leaderboards thread for a quick comparison:

 

arsenal merc

 

balance shadow

 

tracer missile, 70 hits, 898 dps (AVG DPS)

 

double strike, 144 hits, 1617 dps (AVG DMG)

 

but wait, double strike hits... double, so that's 72 times vs 70 times (~3% difference) (1.61%, actually) and actually a lot more dps actually to the guy who said grav round does more

 

% of Target/Hits/Action/Total Damage/Average DPS/Average Damage/Hit/Critical

 

26.64% 144 Double Strike 232854 772.15 1617.04 54.86%

 

28.25% 70 Tracer Missile 272097 898.21 3887.1 45.71%

Edited September 16, 2013 by T-Assassin

[oaceen]

% of Target/Hits/Action/Total Damage/Average DPS/Average Damage/Hit/Critical

 

26.64% 144 Double Strike 232854 772.15 1617.04 54.86%

 

28.25% 70 Tracer Missile 272097 898.21 3887.1 45.71%

 

haha, good call. had the columns mixed up

i was surprised when i was typing that out too and just figured 'well, it does get that surge bonus...'

Edited September 16, 2013 by oaceen

[paowee]

I love the tank question. Hopefully we'll get some confirmation of future changes from BW (my L10 shadow needs some end-game love!)

[DarthObelisk]

I shall pass this on to the development team. Although it is unlikely you will see answers to things outside of the top 3, your bonus section is indeed a good starting point for me to gather overall feedback.

 

-eric

 

Any idea when we can hopefully expect some kind of answer?

[DaftVaduhhh]

Any idea when we can hopefully expect some kind of answer?

Mon-Wed next week.

[EatenByDistance]

It's too bad you couldn't have fit survivability issues/phase walk's mediocrity into any of the questions but, all in all good job on the writeup.

 

Here's hoping the answers don't disappoint :/

[Vaerah]

I shall pass this on to the development team. Although it is unlikely you will see answers to things outside of the top 3, your bonus section is indeed a good starting point for me to gather overall feedback.

 

-eric

 

Hello,

I read that you keep reading subsequent replies to these threads and use them as further feedback.

 

So here's mine, covering DPS specs in PvP.

 

Nobody mentioned what's possibly the very source of both stealther classes major disappointment. Only knowing the source a rational approach may best used to deal with the consequences.

 

Our classes would be totally fine in a Warhammer Online game (I know SWTOR took more than one hint and even developer from that MMO), where you deal with massive, heavily prominent outworld combat. There's really space for everyone and 1000 "dark corners" where a classic stealther may really make full use of his class.

 

But SWTOR turned out to be different. Excluding lowbie ganking on Tatooine and Reps cantina abuse on Hoth (no balance required for that) and excluding relatively rare events involving some outdoor PvP, stealthers have lost a lot of their meaning.

 

Most PvP is done in warzones, predictable objectives attracting players make "lone wolf" gameplay much rarer than outdoor. Solo PvP basically happens only when a fragile class is guarding a node, in solo.

And that situation so far is the only reason stealthers were brought to ranked warzones at all, in case of shadows / assassins they were forced to spec tank (node guarding).

So, tank spec for ranked warzones, the DPS specs are confined to non ranked PUGs and that's it. Not a lot of joy being prevented from joining both NiM PvE and ranked Warzones, it makes the DPS specs look "noobish" as in "only a bad player would play infiltration / deception and only a VERY bad player would play madness / balance".

 

Yes there are an handful of exceptions to this, the handful of super-extra excellent players who pour in 20 times the effort than any other class and have massive skill and videos to back them up, find spots. All the others... though luck.

 

But wait, the lone wolf concept, while already struggling with competitive warzones PvP, completely breaks for arenas.

 

- In arenas there's no "node to guard" and thus no "team spot given by role" to speak about.

 

- In arenas the two groups fight in tiny maps where no lone wolf will gank anybody. Moreover teams have no reason to spread out (no multiple objectives) so they are quite tight and solo fights just don't happen.

 

- Consequence of the above, guard gets a bigger importance, being in guard range will be easier and this of course negatively affects all those classes whose gameplay is based on burst. Not only that, but both tank and healer don't have to spread attention over "a blob" but can quickly focus on the 1 player being attacked, further penalizing surprise based burst classes.

 

- Arenas groups are so small that everybody matters. A class that has a burst and then is done till the long timer cooldowns are ready again is NOT a valuable asset. Bursting "a la shadow / sin" just does not work against competitive opponents who know how to guard switch, peel, focus heal. And once gone the "oomph", we sit there looking pretty, with all the cooldowns ticking.

 

So, in conclusion, "rogues and lone wolf gameplay" sound good and ARE good in MMOs catering to such gameplay. However SWTOR has been gradually distancing from such gameplay and soon will be completely hostile to it.

From that descend our increasing concerns: very good square pegs... in a game of round holes.

Fishes out of water.

 

We need our class to be adapted to the evolving SWTOR gameplay else we are destined to be excellent... dinosaurs.

Edited September 17, 2013 by Vaerah

[Sarenne]

To everyone who is sad about the exclusion of Balance/Madness...

 

So am I. :-( I really wanted to get that in there. In the end though, I looked at the PvE DPS question and realized that it was in fact two questions sandwiched together without a lot of related points. It was literally trying to cram extra questions into a smaller space. The two questions were specifically: Infil/Decep needs some reorg to be consistently viable, and Balance/Madness is a boring spec. I had to choose between the two, and I chose the one which related to class balance, rather than to quality-of-life and subjective enjoyment. I totally agree that the balance/madness issues are real and need addressing, but I had to triage...

 

Given the sheer numbers of posts regarding the boredom of playing balance since 2.0 I imagine you were aware you'd get a disappointed response from some folks; nonetheless I thank you for not triaging infiltration out of this round of questions entirely. The bonus questions are wonderful - they point the direction devs should be taking to make the class fun and worth playing again.

 

True, but I'm not sure if we should adress Infiltration PvE at all tbh. Think its a waste of resources.

 

I LOL'd - got your point entirely ... call me a diehard

[SCHodge]

I think KBN did an excellent job on the top 3 questions / 50 Theses of Shadowing; I know some people are unhappy that their personal high priority issue didn't get top billing, but he had a *ton* of issues to go through, and the final questions (especially the tank question) are exceptionally well written and calculated to actual get constructive feedback (while preempting easy objections as well). I vote him a 400% raise, with a 100% bonus contingent upon developer response.

 

Do we have an aggregate guide to all of the shadow tank theorycrafting? I follow the forum fairly well, but some of it was new to me.

 

Thanks,

 

Clarin @ The Harbinger

[Laforet]

Q1 AWNSER: Congratulations on noticing our stance to shadow tank. As a shadow tank, you must know the moment when to heal and when to pop damage reduction cooldowns. The fact is that Juggernaught tanks cannot heal to full and you can. You must tank while healing to full.

 

 

Q2 AWNSER: Deception? Hit and run LONE WOLF playstila. Use LoS, dont stand in the middle of the fight, like Vanguards, deception has ranged skills and you need to use them more to your advantage.

 

 

Q3 AWNSER: Our internal metrics say PvE dps is fine. The fact is that you can respec and tank for your friends and THE MARAUDER cant. You must use all of your class tools and stop comparing yourself with THE MARAUDER since THE MARAUDER cannot tank or heal to full in tank spec. THE MARAUDER also doesnt have stealth so you just cannot expect to do damage at THE MARAUDER levels.

[kennethdale]

Q1 AWNSER: Congratulations on noticing our stance to shadow tank. As a shadow tank, you must know the moment when to heal and when to pop damage reduction cooldowns. The fact is that Juggernaught tanks cannot heal to full and you can. You must tank while healing to full.

 

 

Q2 AWNSER: Deception? Hit and run LONE WOLF playstila. Use LoS, dont stand in the middle of the fight, like Vanguards, deception has ranged skills and you need to use them more to your advantage.

 

 

Q3 AWNSER: Our internal metrics say PvE dps is fine. The fact is that you can respec and tank for your friends and THE MARAUDER cant. You must use all of your class tools and stop comparing yourself with THE MARAUDER since THE MARAUDER cannot tank or heal to full in tank spec. THE MARAUDER also doesnt have stealth so you just cannot expect to do damage at THE MARAUDER levels.

 

*Sigh* I can't wait until people stop thinking that posts like these are funny/relevant.

[GAMER_NOW]

Q1 AWNSER: Congratulations on noticing our stance to shadow tank. As a shadow tank, you must know the moment when to heal and when to pop damage reduction cooldowns. The fact is that Juggernaught tanks cannot heal to full and you can. You must tank while healing to full.

 

JK/SW have an aggro drop that heals them to full. I know this because I did a 55 HM with a tank that used it.

[metalfenix]

I hope you guys get answers, specially to the tank question, it was something that I was discussing with a guildie days ago, he was tired of the spikiness of the damage that shadows/sins have to endure. I was looking at some parse numbers, and yeah, some of the spike damage is unhealable.

 

I don't have an assasin/shadow, but all my support goes to you guys.

Edited September 17, 2013 by metalfenix

[Serin_Nat]

As a 55 shadow whose been in all specs in pve/pvp I fully support the identified issues and would love some answers to these spot on questions!

[leijae]

Q1 AWNSER: Congratulations on noticing our stance to shadow tank. As a shadow tank, you must know the moment when to heal and when to pop damage reduction cooldowns. The fact is that Juggernaught tanks cannot heal to full and you can. You must tank while healing to full.

 

Honestly, I'm expecting an answer similar to this.... "Shadows have resilience, make yourself '100%' invulnerable to tech/force attacks and heal to full"

[AlrikFassbauer]

Me, I'm almost expect answers like this as well - in contrast to the last round of answers.

[RynZelara]

Lolz.

[KeyboardNinja]

.......Please don't smear your sarcastic crap on the thread. All this post accomplishes is that when the devs finally do respond to the questions, they will be less likely to give respectful responses because of the disrespect we're showing them before they even answer the questions.

 

You wanna go do that on the Sorcerer forum, be my guest. But the questions haven't been answered over here yet, so please don't. It isn't funny, and it makes the community look bad. =/

 

Maybe I just haven't been over-exposed yet, but I still crack up every time I see someone write something about THE MARAUDER. I agree that perhaps the post could have been more constructive, and I certainly don't want to encourage rampant cynicism about the developers, but I don't mind laughing at a good meme. I hope the devs feel the same way.

 

To be clear, I don't think the answers are going to be anything approaching what was written.

Edited September 17, 2013 by KeyboardNinja

[ThePasserby]

.......Please don't smear your sarcastic crap on the thread. All this post accomplishes is that when the devs finally do respond to the questions, they will be less likely to give respectful responses because of the disrespect we're showing them before they even answer the questions.

 

You wanna go do that on the Sorcerer forum, be my guest. But the questions haven't been answered over here yet, so please don't. It isn't funny, and it makes the community look bad. =/

 

To feel insulted, the devs have to actually read the forums.

[Bzziki]

Erhgg!! No fix for force shroud.

[cycao]

Erhgg!! No fix for force shroud.

 

Could always get asked for when the assassin questions come up assuming we don't get more questions from their answers in a few days.

[paowee]

*Sigh* I can't wait until people stop thinking that posts like these are funny.

It made me giggle (im at work) and my colleague noticed and looked at me in a weird way

Edited September 17, 2013 by paowee

[foxmob]

else we are destined to be excellent... dinosaurs.

fossils.

[Laforet]

*Sigh* I can't wait until people stop thinking that posts like these are funny/relevant.

 

Funny is a matter of taste, i cant help if you dont have sense of humor.

 

They are relevant in the sense that they are more or less of an acurate representation of what the developers of this game actually think.

 

This so called round of questions is not going to change their "set in stone" ways. If they were going to nerf smash they would already have done it. On the contrary, the odds are that we see a smash buff very very soon.

 

The best we can do is ridicule the f*ck out of them until they finally get fired for destroying the game. A lot of people already been fired lets just hope they burn the next round of devs so we can hope they will eventually hire someone competent.

 

Dont tell that doesnt work. See Brian Holinka. After 9 years blizzard actually hired someone willing to at least **TRY** to fix PvP.

Edited September 18, 2013 by Laforet