In the defense of money makers (or getters).

[Brewski]

Then avoid the forums and stop whining about it if you're so tired. Nobody said everyone who defends the game is paid, but it's clear there are some who seem motivated to defend no matter what.

 

I didn't say I'm tired of the forums, and I'm not whining about it. Simply expressing my opinion. You need to get over being insulting to anyone who disagrees with your point of view.

[Andryah]

Nobody said everyone who defends the game is paid, but it's clear there are some who seem motivated to defend no matter what.

 

Really?

 

Who?

 

I know it's not me.. even though I get that dart thrown at me fairly often.

 

No TUXs... Brewski is right that people are trying to use the accusation to intimidate, discredit, or otherwise marginalize someone who disagrees with them in forum discussion. Rather then discuss a topic and debate a topic on merit of the discussion.. it's a resort to personal attacking.

 

And as for suggesting Brewski step back for the forum if he does not like the tactic... he has as much right to discuss it and express his views as you do. Need I remind you that the OP started a meta-topic about forum posting behaviors?? As such.. Brewskis comments are in context.

Edited September 11, 2013 by Andryah

[Andryah]

It's only a handful of them and it's very clear that there are some who are likely paid posters...probably referred to as "marketing".

 

Really? Who? Where is your proof? Support your claim or retract it.

 

You just did what they OP did.. made baseless accusations in an effort to marginalize a "small group" of fellow forum members. Why? What purpose does this serve for you?

 

I will note though.. that you gave yourself an escape hatch with clever use of the word "likely"

Edited September 11, 2013 by Andryah

[LordArtemis]

Really? Who? Where is your proof? Support your claim or retract it.

 

You just did what they OP did.. made baseless accusations in an effort to marginalize a "small group" of fellow forum members. Why? What purpose does this serve for you?

 

I will note though.. that you gave yourself an escape hatch with clever use of the word "likely"

 

I've seen people accuse you of it. I've been accused of it as well (which to me is just as ludicrous considering my harsh criticism at times, you have been critical of the game as well) and naturally it's a silly contention to make IMO.

 

The only thing I will say is that TUXs did not say all game defenders....he said a handful. That doesn't make it any less silly, but it was not fair to indicate he meant all people that defend the game.

 

...actually, If I am not mistaken you were pretty blunt about the varactyl mount and it's sound effect...the "creative mistake" as you put it with the sound they used for stepping. If you were employed by Bioware, I imagine comments like that would probably get you fired.

Edited September 11, 2013 by LordArtemis

[DOHboy]

Well, in defense of TUXs he did only say a handful. Not everyone that defends the game.

 

not, but it's pretty clear who they are talking about, we all know who the semi-regular postars are, especially in the more popular threads. And no, I wouldn't call anyone a "paid plant" that's tin hat stuff. Some of us actually have backgrounds in engineering, mathematics, project management, software development and understand the give/take relationship and compromises required. And have a grasp of concepts like "random" "supply/demand" and how they apply to "luxury items" difference between WANT and NEED.

[ImpactHound]

Really? Who? Where is your proof? Support your claim or retract it.

 

You just did what they OP did.. made baseless accusations in an effort to marginalize a "small group" of fellow forum members. Why? What purpose does this serve for you?

 

I will note though.. that you gave yourself an escape hatch with clever use of the word "likely"

 

Andromeda, though I don't have the screenshots at work to prove it right now. I don't remember how many posts were here on the official forums, but they were very active elsewhere.

[Hockaday]

 

This move by Bioware to offer an expansion for free that was once paid is COMMON PRACTICE. If something is crazy, I call it crazy.

 

.

 

Agreed, the only part I'm (slightly) torn on, is the 1050 cc refund. I'm really on the fence whether I think it's fair or not. Leaning towards not fair...but I can imagine being on the other side...kind of a lose lose situation here.

[LordArtemis]

not, but it's pretty clear who they are talking about, we all know who the semi-regular postars are, especially in the more popular threads. And no, I wouldn't call anyone a "paid plant" that's tin hat stuff. Some of us actually have backgrounds in engineering, mathematics, project management, software development and understand the give/take relationship and compromises required. And have a grasp of concepts like "random" "supply/demand" and how they apply to "luxury items" difference between WANT and NEED.

 

I would agree that quite a few folks here are learned, and certainly some are part of the gaming industry. I can think of three particular members that regularly post that are devs in other games or in the industry.

[Hockaday]

Really?

 

Who?

 

I know it's not me.. even though I get that dart thrown at me fairly often.

 

lolol...so saving that.

[Arkerus]

I'm curious as to why so many posters are willing to defend EA/Bioware through thick and thin. Do they give you a pat on the back? Some special gear? Maybe a few extra cartel coins? No?

Well, does it help you in the long run if no one ever complains about Bioware's marketing practices which may discourage people from playing? No?

So why?

Do you respect them because they have money? Do you feel bad for them?

 

I'm curious because criticism no matter how "whiny" it may seem at the time is key to making your game better. If Bioware pulls a bad marketing ploy and people get upset about it, it is better for them to post their grievances so that when subs drop a few months down the road, BIoware has some explanation to back up the data.

 

I defend a business's right to create their own model and product and I always tell consumers to be better consumers...because by being a better consumer you actually get more of what YOU want. I am almost never defending Bioware exclusively.

Edited September 11, 2013 by Arkerus

[LordArtemis]

Agreed, the only part I'm (slightly) torn on, is the 1050 cc refund. I'm really on the fence whether I think it's fair or not. Leaning towards not fair...but I can imagine being on the other side...kind of a lose lose situation here.

 

I can see the irritation over that. Especially to those folks that miss the deadline by a few days.

 

All I would say to that is that they had to place the cutoff somewhere. It could have been never, two days, one week, two weeks, one month, two, three....someone is going to shafted out of coins in that deal.

 

I know I'm not getting coins because I bought it just outside the cutoff point. For me it's no big deal. Some of my friends will get the coins, others will get the expansion for free.

 

Besides, I'm going to get that many coins for free probably anyway when they get the in game coin thing working again....so no worries for me.

[Arkerus]

Then avoid the forums and stop whining about it if you're so tired. Nobody said everyone who defends the game is paid, but it's clear there are some who seem motivated to defend no matter what.

 

That's ridiculous. Unlike the "paid" poster scandal we saw before many people who disagree with the way people present their entitlement here often have disagreements with the way the game is designed.

 

People like myself simply try to explain what the real world is like. Its like 90% of the forums has no idea how a business is run and can't understand for the life of them why company X would do Y. Nevermind the fact that these big evil companies employ a lot of good, hard working people and the only way to do that is to make a profit.

 

Its a free market and by being a better consumer you can get more of what you want instead of less.

[Andryah]

Andromeda, though I don't have the screenshots at work to prove it right now. I don't remember how many posts were here on the official forums, but they were very active elsewhere.

 

Other baseless claims on the internet cannot be used to validate baseless claims and accusation on the internet.

 

I'm talking about actual proof to substantiate an accusation.. not internet wind. I know you know the difference IH.

Edited September 11, 2013 by Andryah

[kidatwood]

Money makes the world go round! Keep up the good work BW on making money ill enjoy all the new content that you will produce with it!!! And anyone who says the game hasn't seen content in the last 6 months is out of there minds and there is one thing that was a huge factor in it and yes I'm talking about the CM!!! So BW please let me know in advance when the next expansion comes out cause I already got my CC ready!!!

[Andryah]

The only thing I will say is that TUXs did not say all game defenders

 

I did not say he did.

 

But he did make a claim without proof. I simply asked for proof or a retraction of the claim. He will probably do neither as he inserted "likely" in his open attack.. to give himself a way out of being accountable for his statements.

 

TUXs and I agree and disagree on discussions... but we generally respect our differences. However, I am astonished that he did what he did here.

Edited September 11, 2013 by Andryah

[ScarletBlaze]

I don't see a problem with the item on the cartel market actually. I rarely buy anything from the cartel market. I have used the coins to unlock items on my legacy, such as the repair droid, gtn, the quick travel to the black hole, etc.

 

The armor on the cartel market 99% of the time you will find on the GTN and doing dailies I am able to create a look I like on my characters. I am not in the habit of changing outfits on a whim, due to the fact I am level 55 and my outfit and items are mostly augmented.

 

Any business is out to make money and I do what I do in real life on items I don't really need. If it costs more than I am willing to pay I don't buy it.

 

There is also a right way to complain. You can complain constructively without attacking or being seen as whiny. If you just complain to complain without giving your reasons why bother? I have seen posts that I cannot for the life of me figure out what they are complaining about.

 

When I have a problem I do it in a constructive manner. I list my reasons and leave it at that. Being whiny never accomplishes anything.

 

If you have a problem list them constructively .

[Noodlegotagun]

I knew as soon as I read it on the homepage. "People are going to be blowing up the forums about this."

 

This isn't a new, uncommon, or even ground-breaking marketing tactic. You ever pay for cable service? sure you have. We all have. after a couple years, your special introductory rates expire, and you're left paying 30-40% more than you did for the first year because of that, but you're still content enough to keep paying. Then it happens. You see a big deal from your cable provider offering the same bundle you got, for $20-$30 less than you bought it for years ago, AND they're throwing in a $300 gift card to -wheverthehellmart-. Big deal. This is just another way for Bioware to look beyond the price tag of an expansion, and look to make more money in the future. A lot of F2P players at this point have hit 50, done a few operations, shelled out cash for artifact gear authorization, and for weekly passes to content they don't get otherwise, and are starting to wonder if it's really worth the cash they're shelling out every week.

 

Then BAM! They log in and see "subscribe today and get the expansion FREE!" So, they get all the bonuses they may not have already purchased from the market, more FREE character slots, so they can play those classes they've desperately wanted to, but not wanted to splurge on a new character slot, AND they get to experience makeb in it's full glory, and get those next 5 levels. I also forgot to mention that if they're starting new characters, and don't want to take forver, they're buying things like the going places bundle, ($20 The original price of the X-pac! THE IRONY!) or several packs of experience boosts, roughly $3-4 each. What does that do? It breathes new life into the F2P system, and encourages them to SPEND MONEY! This isn't about slapping loyal subscribers in the face. It's about marketing, and how best to push the game forward, and make money at the same time. Feeling cheated by this marketing tactic is selfish. In my opinion anyway. I know I don't feel cheated one bit. I applaud EA/Bio for finding a way to expand their game for everyone, not just a select number.

 

I don't know, maybe I'm just too much of a market focused consumer. That's just how I see. +1 Bioware for making a great game more accessible to everyone.

[theUndead]

Tired argument is tired.

 

Look the bottom line is sometimes Bioware deserve condemnation for the decisions they make. Sometimes they do wrong by us and therefore we tell them. However, most times at least to me they do the right thing and defending them from mindless hate is not bad either. See not everyone will agree with every negative thing that is said about the game as most of us are generally happy.

 

I have mentioned this before. This forum epitomizes extremism on both sides. Both in blind defense or in blind hatred. Yes there is a middle group too but they are the silent majority and go on with their business without looking at the forums so therefore the opinions that any of us mention do not actually represent too many people. And I might add that everything anyone says is an opinion whether it is defending the game or bashing it. But because opinion is subjective people will agree and people will disagree, therefore it is safe to say that there is not one extreme as you mentioned OP their are two and instead of calling out one you should call out both.

 

To end off know that people will disagree with people who blindly bash the game and people will disagree with people who blindly praise the game. The trick is in any opinion you have on this forum, it is best to be constructive so as make better discussion and to make the game better.

[KorbanShepard]

I think the point has actually been made. Some people are happy with Bioware's decisions, and thus have virtually no reason to discuss the problems. You just want to complain about other people complaining about the problems. I guess in that vain I am complaining about people complaining about people complaining, but regardless the point is made. You could call this an ad hominem attack, but it is certainly no more of one then when people get on their high horse about "entitlements' and the like on these forums.

 

Oh yeah, and I haven't seen any constructive feedback other than what I've posted in another post about the recent RotHC changes, but apparently I'm doing it wrong by reacting to a decision that I see as bad. Got it.

 

It's apparently only constructive feedback if someone else agrees with you.

[theUndead]

I think the point has actually been made. Some people are happy with Bioware's decisions, and thus have virtually no reason to discuss the problems. You just want to complain about other people complaining about the problems. I guess in that vain I am complaining about people complaining about people complaining, but regardless the point is made. You could call this an ad hominem attack, but it is certainly no more of one then when people get on their high horse about "entitlements' and the like on these forums.

 

Oh yeah, and I haven't seen any constructive feedback other than what I've posted in another post about the recent RotHC changes, but apparently I'm doing it wrong by reacting to a decision that I see as bad. Got it.

 

It's apparently only constructive feedback if someone else agrees with you.

 

Really an ad hominem attack? My post was not an attack on you at all. And don't tell me got it as I certainly don't answer to you. My post was a reflection on what happens in this forum. See what you fail to understand is that both sides of the argument are at fault.

 

Also when did I say it was only constructive when someone agrees? That is nothing but an attempt to put words in my mouth. Oh and don't throw words like entitlement around as you don't actually know what it means. The only entitlement people actually are allowed to have is the right to post their opinion and this case you are free to post yours. But I did not complain about anything all I was doing was responding to your claim that is only defenders to derail the threads when as I said multiple times it is both sides.

 

So no your point has not been made at all. I'm not even sure what your point is. I can only assume that you think because some people are generally happy that it is in fact a bad thing and you are complaining about that.

[KorbanShepard]

Really an ad hominem attack? My post was not an attack on you at all. And don't tell me got it as I certainly don't answer to you. My post was a reflection on what happens in this forum. See what you fail to understand is that both sides of the argument are at fault.

 

Also when did I say it was only constructive when someone agrees? That is nothing but an attempt to put words in my mouth. Oh and don't throw words like entitlement around as you don't actually know what it means. The only entitlement people actually are allowed to have is the right to post their opinion and this case you are free to post yours. But I did not complain about anything all I was doing was responding to your claim that is only defenders to derail the threads when as I said multiple times it is both sides.

 

So no your point has not been made at all. I'm not even sure what your point is. I can only assume that you think because some people are generally happy that it is in fact a bad thing and you are complaining about that.

 

This was a general point as to the entirety of the thread. Not about you as a singular individual.

 

Oh, if there is any confusion over the usage of the pronoun "you", allow me to explain. In english, the conjugation of the plural second person pronoun is the exact same as the singular second person pronoun in many cases. While this can be modified such as in the Southern vernacular ("y'all"), it is not necessary and you can refer to multiple people as well as a singular person.

Edited September 11, 2013 by KorbanShepard

[KorbanShepard]

So no your point has not been made at all. I'm not even sure what your point is. I can only assume that you think because some people are generally happy that it is in fact a bad thing and you are complaining about that.

 

Also, no. I assume that people who are happy with the game is good for them. I just wonder why they then need to jump on the forums and bash people who feel differently.

[kidatwood]

To be honest there not getting a refund they get coins to be spent on the cm. so to be honest I'd be more upset that I didn't get the 10 dollar refund instead I got store credit.

[GthcRvn]

Also, no. I assume that people who are happy with the game is good for them. I just wonder why they then need to jump on the forums and bash people who feel differently.

 

 

 

Probably for the same reason you feel the need to jump on the forums and bash them?

[AlrikFassbauer]

Do you respect them because they have money? Do you feel bad for them?

 

Yes, I feel bad for those who have too much money without spending it for welfare things. My grandparents taught me to help people who are in need because that was simply required after WWII. Not neccessarily where you live, but here it was. People were making flour out of acorns, for example, and eating salad made out of tree leaves I learned much later. Helping each other was a thing of sheer survival - and that's why I don't like it when people don't help each other. Especially when those who accumulated a lot of weatlth don't. I believe tht the current U.S. high society doesn't know what survivval means, anymore.

 

I'm curious because criticism no matter how "whiny" it may seem at the time is key to making your game better.

 

No, I don't believe so.

 

Criticism is something that evokes negative feelings. Especially within the criticised persons. I know what I'm talking about. I've been criticised myself so hard that at one point it really damaged my personal development, especially as an author.

 

I was über-self-critical.

 

I once found someone writing that criticism might not always be the best move.

 

Instead, what's better is this : Pointing out how things can be steered to become better.

 

An simple example . The tires of a friend's bicycle are flatter than they need to be.

 

Criticism : "Oh, that's bad ! Just look at your flat tires ! Are you too lazy to pump them up ?"

 

The other way (for which I have no name yet) : "Your tires are flat. Did you know that you can go much faster with your bike, and with much less work needed, if they are fully pumped up ?"

 

Notice the difference ?

 

Criticism alone makes people go nunb. They close their ears at one point, because they get that people are NOT interested in the positive things they make. If you constantly criticise your carpenter for his tables, then he will at one point close his ears, put earplugs into them, and resign his work one day. "It just doesn't make any sense to work for people who say nothing to you but "do you know how bad you are ? Your work is nothing but crap !"

 

And then, the town needs another carpenter.

 

Instead of giving him the chance to improve.

By giving him examples. "Did you know that with rounded edges, people would have less aching if they push against these edges ? Would it increase your rate of selling tables if you ask your customers for what they want to have in the first place ?"

 

Do you see the difference ?

 

 

 

Because today, criticising has become a form of laziness. Not making up ideas is simple . You just criticise.

It is especially important if you DO NOT know where the journey should go to, but CRITICISE ANYWAY.

This means that IF the responsible persons actually DO a change, then you are free to criticise ANYWAY, because you did NOT know what you would like to have in the first place.

 

So, it's too easy to lean back into your chair watch your minions to their work, and - criticise them. Bäm !

No work needed from *your* side. Just let them do as they think it's right - and feel free to criticise them - instead of saying "STOP !" when you have the feeling that they are going into an unhealthy direction (tables with 2 legs shorter than the other 2 legs, for example). Instead, you'd just sit there, wait until it's ready / built ( maybe even WATCHING the whole progress as it takes place ! ) - and in the end, when everyone's ready with an "tada !" (Gru's minions ) - criticise them. Criticism as a gun.

 

Even worse, criticising gives people a feeling of power. Criticism makes them believe that "they are right" and "everyone else is just plain wrong". Like the famous "there's someone WRONG on the internet !" comic.

 

 

 

TL;DR : No, I don't like sheer criticism. It is in my eyes just the wrong form, because it generated negative feelings.

 

"Your table is such a crap ! You shouldn't be allowed to do tables which are so much nun-functional like that ! Go out of my eyes, you incompetent carpenter !"

 

Positive reactions are imho much better. Like "wouldn't you aree that a table would stand much more horizontal and therefore you wouldn't have these problems with eating your meal anymore if ALL legs had the same length ?"

This generates much more positive feelings.

 

See the difference ?

Edited September 11, 2013 by AlrikFassbauer