20 bucks for a one use dye, REALLY?

[danielearley]

And the problem is....

 

If you don't want to pay for it, erm don't!

 

Your not losing anything, they haven't taken anything away from you, they are just selling something which a lot of people want. If the price wasn't high there would be lots of people running around in Black, be like goth Star Wars!

[Nemmar]

OR... OR.... you can get 6 mil credits and buy it in-game. Take your pick.

 

Either way its not something you need. Its something you want. Vanity has a price.

[Reno_Tarshil]

Once more for good measure, yell it with me my brethren

 

"You don't have to buy it if you don't agree with it!"

[LordArtemis]

In this case though, time will tell if it was smarter just to leave the access for both colors the way it was. Perhaps this is a tempest in a teacup, perhaps not.

 

Historically there have been low value items at really high prices offered by other games and they were soundly denounced for it...but the value of both of these items is pretty high, so that may not be the case here.

 

Also, there are other methods to gain the colors...two others to be exact, packs (cheaper but only a chance) and GTN (also expensive but based on demand and uses in game currency).

 

If this was the only way to get the colors than perhaps the rage would be justified. I'm not sure it is at this juncture. It was certainly a shock to me, but in the end it doesn't end up seeming to be that high, all things considered.

 

I can live with the price. Would love to see it lower or have a collectable ability, but mainly would just love to have a repeatable feature in the game that I could enjoy engaging in to create credits. Right now options are a bit limited for me in that respect, and that is what keeps my credit levels on the low side.

 

That is my only real issue, and this cost does not effect that. I will simply likely not purchase it. At least not directly on the market or from the packs.

[Cernow]

And the problem is....

 

If you don't want to pay for it, erm don't!

 

Your not losing anything, they haven't taken anything away from you, they are just selling something which a lot of people want. If the price wasn't high there would be lots of people running around in Black, be like goth Star Wars!

 

Who cares if everyone is running around in black? At least those players would be HAPPY CUSTOMERS more likely to keep playing and keep spending.

 

If the dye system weren't such a mess with ugly crayon colours and restrictive mechanics, players might desire something other than black anyway. Under the current system they won't dare because if they do buy black they'll never change it for fear of losing their non-removable, non-collectible $20 purchase.

 

The whole "If you don't want to pay, don't buy" argument is a nonsense. This is a cash grab, pure and simple, taking advantage of peoples desire for a certain colour. It might seem a trivial matter to some, but it sets a precedent. If they get away with ripping off players for this, then what's next?

 

There's lots of expensive things in life. Some are justified because they are expensive or difficult to make. Some are artificially expensive due to hype, marketing or manipulating supply. This is a virtual item that cost nothing to make other than moving some RGB sliders to zero, once. To price it at $20 is a rip off. To make it single use, non-removable, non-collectible is beyond rip off.

 

I have no problem with EA making profits, we wouldn't have a game to play if they didn't. But there are ways to make a profit and still give players value for money. Happy customers are loyal customers that spend more. Sure a cash grab will make some short term profits as you milk the whales, but in the long term this might be outweighed by insulting and alienating the wider playerbase.

Edited September 6, 2013 by Cernow

[hadoken]

I'm going to go through this line by line because as a whole it's a confusing mess:

 

are you insane? yet just ANOTHER fanboi who will defend EA's greed at all cost. i play Monopoly and give my competitor 100 real dollars for park place because its cheaper after the conversion factor...lol. WHAT A DEAL!. do you realize how absurb you sound?

 

Playing Monopoly with real dollars sounds far more "absurb" to me.

 

whats the red speeder called ingame that's worth like 4 mil atm? whats the conversion on that? 80$? with your argument you shouldn't have a problem with BW charging that much right? *hangs head in sadness* and when that time comes, and it will, there will still be people buying said item and defending BW. ohh how the MMo industry has changed in the last 10 years...

 

4 mil would be around $40 actually, though it's painfully obvious you have no concept of the SWTOR economy which is why you don't understand my post in the first place. The MMO industry has changed quite a bit in the last 10 years, mostly for the positive IMO (obviously not in yours).

 

people say it is a high price, BUT after conversion its a deal.. so they rationalize and are ok with it. .what they don't seem to realize is that CC's are powered by the dollar, but its value is directly controlled by BW thus the conversion factor you defend makes no sense. the CC's are not a living breathing economy henseforth could directly control the value of said item by adjusting the prices of CC's

 

No, the value of the CC is controlled by the players. It's up to us how much we pay on the GTN for CM purchased items, always has been (ever notice how you can't vendor CM items? they don't set ANY price).

 

people have totally lost sight and totally blind as they get there wallets bled thinking they are getting a good deal from BW.. they will keep jacking up prices under the guise of "CONVENIENCE" do you really think they are out to cut us deals?...ha!..they are out to make money plain and simple but keep thinking that. hope that mindset treats you well

 

Of course BioWare is out to make money, that's what a company does (unless it's non-profit). The fact is they're putting up a hot commodity for a direct cost instead of keeping it the gamble (that costs you 4x+ as much) it is right now. In doing so they'll actually lower the cost of the randomized ones on the GTN - as I said this is a win for people who don't want to spend real $ too.

 

to everyone else!..now you all finally see what ive been saying about BW/EA and there CM. im sure you will see higher prices in the CM in the next coming year as well. this dye issue is just the beginning. they are testing the waters to see how much they can get away with. now that they have shown you a high priced item. we as players will not be so much in uprising the next time. just like what happened with the gas prices. the first time it went up after 9/11 it was almost civil unrest..it went down for a while then came back up and continued to rise to this day, but as you can the upheaval isn't as bad as it was in the beginning because people were used to it.

 

I like a good conspiracy theory as much as anyone but really wish people would stop bringing 9/11 into conversations about video games. Cheapens any attempt at a point you're trying to make.

 

ps..this is what wiki states about gambling and MMo's (CM packs could be construed as gambling)

 

Gambling regulation[edit source]

 

Conversion between in-game and real-world currency has led to direct comparisons with other on-line games of chance as 'virtual winnings'. This is why gamers and companies engaged in this conversion, where it is permitted by a game, may fall under gambling legislation.

 

The difference is there's no conversion back to cash from the in game currency. Since it can't be proven you're ever profiting by gambling in this game, it isn't really legal gambling (and thus cannot be taxed or regulated). You're just paying the company money

Edited September 6, 2013 by hadoken

[AMulls]

I'm still seeing lots points being missed.

 

Yes, people asked for the dyes to be buyable directly from the market, rather than through a random bag. And those same people may have said, "I'd even pay a couple thousand CCs for it, if I knew what I was getting." But, my guess is that is just a bit of hyperbole on their part. Like me being hungry and saying, "wow, if only I could get a cheeseburger, I'd pay a $100 for one right now." That doesn't mean I'd actually pay $100 for a cheeseburger, it's just me expressing how badly I'd like a cheeseburger.

 

However, I do understand the logic behind it. $2 (200 CC) for a slight chance to get a B/B or W/W dye in their gamble bag. Or, pay $20 (2000 CC) to be guaranteed a B/B dye. I get the pricing, from a purely economic stance, since you're eliminating the chance. But that doesn't mean you should be charging those prices for something that is a one-time use item. People are upset by the perceived VALUE they receive for the COST they pay. I believe that is the point most of the people are trying to make when they complain about the cost.

 

And as Andryah and others have pointed out, yes, the GTN price on these dyes will drop now that they can be bought directly. But, as I pointed out in my last post, these prices would drop no matter how much Bioware charged for the dyes. The price will drop not because they cost 2000 CC, but because there will be an increase in inventory. The higher the inventory, the lower the price. The inventory would increase and lower the GTN price if the dyes were available for 500 CCs. And on something like dyes, which are consumable and cosmetic, the prices SHOULD be low, because their value is limited and finite. Then people wouldn't be so concerned about taking it out of their gear and losing it. It would increase the diversity in the colors, rather than reverting to just a simple Black = Sith and White = Jedi monochrome. The reason everyone is in all black or all white is because of the cost. It's simply too expensive to remove/replace the color once you've bought it.

 

And don't give me the "well, if the price is too low, it will destroy the economy" argument. It wouldn't destroy the economy. It would diminish the market for one small section of the economy. The economy as a whole would be just fine. The crafters and the resellers would simply just find something else to use for profits. Hopefully, something with actual value (armors, mods, mounts, etc.). At the same time, it would make a purely cosmetic and consumable item readily available for those that would like it. This goes for all dyes, not just the B/B and W/W.

 

Crafters would also be primarily unaffected as well, or possibly see an increase in sales. They cannot make B/B and W/W now, so any increase in inventory would not affect them. And if the highly coveted B/B and W/W dyes were readily available for minimal amounts, it might encourage folks to try out colors that can only be made by crafters, thereby increasing their sales.

 

Which again, brings me back to the reason people are upset by the price. It's a VALUE vs. COST issue. Sure, you can advise people not to buy it, but we all know they will sell. As I said, economically, it makes sense for Bioware to charge that much. But just because you can do something, doesn't mean you should do it. Especially when it comes to customer service and maintaining a happy player base.

[Andryah]

the value of the CC is controlled by the players. It's up to us how much we pay on the GTN for CM purchased items, always has been (ever notice how you can't vendor CM items? they don't set ANY price).

 

A very pragmatic point.. missed by many in this game.

 

There is a real life price for CCs.. but the value of those CCs is dictated by players and players alone inside the game. CCs have no value outside the game. They cannot be sold or traded in any manner in the real world. So their actual "value" rests entirely inside the game and inside the minds of the players.

 

Price =/= Value

Value = Value

 

The irony here in this ongoing meltdown over the CC pricing by some is these same people thinking that their dollars represent any actual ownership or real world value whatsoever with respect to anything inside the game. It's not real, you don't have any rights of ownership over any of it (you have a license to play with it), and nothing in game has any legal intrinsic value in the real world beyond the entertainment value to the player.

 

Some players see value in spending real money to acquire virtual content via the CM. Some do not. Some see value in using the ability to buy CM contents and convert it into in game credits via GTN with the free coins they get from subscribing as their value. Some do not. Some see value in earning income inside the game and buying that same content from other players (hence not incurring any real world expense in the process (other then their time). Some see no value in the virtual content being discussed in this thread at all.

 

At the end of the day.. the price to acquire B/B and W/W dye just got nerfed.. nerfed hard.. and people are complaining anyway. Seriously? More value, at a lower price to acquire.. and people complain and call the company greedy for making these two dyes available to more players at a lower cost to acquire. Can you get any more illogical or silly?

Edited September 6, 2013 by Andryah

[hadoken]

Which again, brings me back to the reason people are upset by the price. It's a VALUE vs. COST issue. Sure, you can advise people not to buy it, but we all know they will sell. As I said, economically, it makes sense for Bioware to charge that much. But just because you can do something, doesn't mean you should do it. Especially when it comes to customer service and maintaining a happy player base.

 

So what you're saying is even though they will sell, the people buying them will be unhappy doing so? Are they being held at gunpoint to buy these dyes and not just wait for the GTN price to go down?

 

Or is it more the people who weren't buying these before (because if 2000 coins is too much, 4-5m credits are far worse) are still unhappy they can't get them as cheaply as they wanted to? Where did the expectation that black/black and white/white would be readily available for any player in the game come from?

[Andryah]

Which again, brings me back to the reason people are upset by the price. It's a VALUE vs. COST issue. Sure, you can advise people not to buy it, but we all know they will sell. As I said, economically, it makes sense for Bioware to charge that much. But just because you can do something, doesn't mean you should do it. Especially when it comes to customer service and maintaining a happy player base.

 

It is a Value vs Cost issue.

 

Generally.....MMO players are cheap and want lots of value for little cost.. or even for free. But that want does not make it a reality.

 

Fact: once these go live and enter the marketplace.. you will be able to acquire one for about 20% of the price it used to cost you (either via CM, or via GTN). That's a massive price reduction... yet people are complaining.

 

One comment about impact to crafters (no I don't craft these): since crafters were exploiting the desire for approximating the appearance with rep-recipe dyes.. they are going to get hit fairly hard by this as these dyes proliferate. Dyes that they were selling to many players will now be sold to less players (because the lower cost of B/B and W/W will soak up sales previously avoided) and so their market dries up to a noticeable degree. If they made the B/B and W/W dyes $2-5 each (or make them Collections) then the Artifice dye market would get slaughtered.

 

At the end of the day.. Bioware has the entire game and player base to think about. Individual players complaining about what amounts to a large price reduction (even though not large enough for some)... are only interested in themselves.

Edited September 6, 2013 by Andryah

[Andryah]

Or is it more the people who weren't buying these before (because if 2000 coins is too much, 4-5m credits are far worse) are still unhappy they can't get them as cheaply as they wanted to? Where did the expectation that black/black and white/white would be readily available for any player in the game come from?

 

^^^ This is the issue right here. Most are not honest enough to just admit it.. so they conflate, distort, and blame the company for just being greedy, yada, yada.

 

They want them cheap, and they want them in game to buy cheap for credits. They want them for Black/Yellow prices that CE holders have access to.

 

Some players are still so keester hurt over the game going flexible business model and having a Cartel Merchant.. that they will use any event involving the CM as a pretense to climb up on soap box and water the stump of indignation endlessly.

Edited September 6, 2013 by Andryah

[DOHboy]

So what you're saying is even though they will sell, the people buying them will be unhappy doing so? Are they being held at gunpoint to buy these dyes and not just wait for the GTN price to go down?

 

Or is it more the people who weren't buying these before (because if 2000 coins is too much, 4-5m credits are far worse) are still unhappy they can't get them as cheaply as they wanted to? Where did the expectation that black/black and white/white would be readily available for any player in the game come from?

 

There is alot going on here that people just get peeved about. B/B and W/W are are popular colors and a high demand. So to maximize that demand, Bioware made the colors fairly rare, thus hoping to maintain their profit. That rarity sets the price on the GTN and thus the "cost" is determined. From there VALUE is relative, if perceived value is > cost, people will find profit and buy that item. If perceived value is < cost, people will not buy that item.

 

Because these items are meant to be rare, selling them individually CHEAP is counter intuitive. If you want CHEAP dyes, take your chances on a dye kit. If you want to not spend REAL money buy off the GTN, If you really WANT a B/B and value > cost buy individually off the CM for the price.

 

Put it this way, i REALLY want a Porsche, however, i can't really afford one. WHY, because they are expensive, why are they expensive, be cause they are rare. Why are they rare, because they are expensive. They are MEANT to be both rare AND expensive.

[Andryah]

Put it this way, i REALLY want a Porsche, however, i can't really afford one. WHY, because they are expensive, why are they expensive, be cause they are rare. Why are they rare, because they are expensive. They are MEANT to be both rare AND expensive.

 

I give you credit for objectivity and taking a different view on the matter.

 

Jetta drivers want a Porsche though.

 

Now.. used to be.. they played a game of chance to get a Porsche. Most of the time.. they got an old beater Hugo or perhaps a new model Jetta.. and once in a while some lucky stiff got a Porsche.

 

The interesting thing here is.. they appear to have been very willing to spend 5-10 times the price of the Jetta for a chance to actually get the Porsche. Now that they can buy the Porsche for the price of a Jetta or two.. they are upset it's not cheaper.

 

The good news here is.. they can still spend 5-10 times the price of a Jetta for a chance to get that Porsche, 6 old Hugos, a handful of Chevys and a shiny new Porsche. I bet some still do it too.

Edited September 6, 2013 by Andryah

[hadoken]

I give you credit for objectivity and taking a different view on the matter.

 

Jetta drivers want a Porsche though.

 

Now.. used to be.. they played a game of chance to get a Porsche. Most of the time.. they got an old beater Hugo or perhaps a new model Jetta.. and once in a while some lucky stiff got a Porsche.

 

The interesting thing here is.. they appear to have been very willing to spend 5-10 times the price of the Jetta for a chance to actually get the Porsche. Now that they can buy the Porsche for the price of a Jetta or two.. they are upset it's not cheaper.

 

The good news here is.. they can still spend 5-10 times the price of a Jetta for a chance to get that Porsche, 6 old Hugos, a handful of Chevys and a shiny new Porsche. I bet some still do it too.

 

And I thought I saw it all with the Ferrari analogy. Thanks for breaking this one apart

[Reno_Tarshil]

But I want a Hummer..

[MadHobbit]

well like I said in earlier post, they came out with the way over priced items, 10/20 dollars, they let us scream and complain on the forums,then they say in a post "we hear your complaints , so we have perm lowered the price to 10/5"

 

we all go away and feel great that we "won", when the truth is the 10/5 price is what they wanted in the first place.

 

if they had posted at 10/5 in the first place they would have still gotten a lot of complaints. but would not have changed the price, this way they get a small black mark (no pun intended) for the original price, but a large gold star for "listening"

to their customers.

 

i would like a B/B my self but not at the prices given.

[AMulls]

So what you're saying is even though they will sell, the people buying them will be unhappy doing so? Are they being held at gunpoint to buy these dyes and not just wait for the GTN price to go down?

 

Please read the comment a little more closely. What I am saying is that even if we encourage people not to buy them at that price and in a sense "vote with your wallet," the items will nonetheless end up selling. It has nothing to do with being forced to buy them. Not sure where you got that from my comment.

 

 

Or is it more the people who weren't buying these before (because if 2000 coins is too much, 4-5m credits are far worse) are still unhappy they can't get them as cheaply as they wanted to? Where did the expectation that black/black and white/white would be readily available for any player in the game come from?

 

If you read my post, this is touching a bit on my point. People are unhappy at the cost, precisely because there is an expectation (and in my opinion a not unreasonable one at that) for one-time use, cosmetic, consumable dyes to be much more readily available in all colors, and particularly the most popular ones. And at a much more reasonable cost in real life dollars (for those of us that don't play the market).

 

Or are you saying that color dyes should always be hard to come by? Particularly the most popular colors that would appeal to the most amount of people. When you have an update that is specifically geared toward given people options in their appearance, for which they have been begging since launch, why not earn a little goodwill and please the player base with popular options at reasonable prices.

[Vis-Tecum]

we all go away and feel great that we "won", when the truth is the 10/5 price is what they wanted in the first place.

 

there is probably some really good money in selling tinfoil hats on the internet to people like this

[AMulls]

^^^ This is the issue right here. Most are not honest enough to just admit it.. so they conflate, distort, and blame the company for just being greedy, yada, yada.

 

They want them cheap, and they want them in game to buy cheap for credits. They want them for Black/Yellow prices that CE holders have access to.

 

Some players are still so keester hurt over the game going flexible business model and having a Cartel Merchant.. that they will use any event involving the CM as a pretense to climb up on soap box and water the stump of indignation endlessly.

 

They want them cheap because they should be cheap. They are color dyes. And if you remove them, they are lost. There is almost no value in them, outside of the intentional rarity that Bioware has put on the most popular ones.

 

And I'm not talking about the Cartel Market in general. I'm a huge supporter of it and I've spent way more than I should on cartel packs and armor sets. I'm talking specifically about color dyes to allow people to find a look that they like, or heaven forbid, want to try out different looks depending on their mood without having to break either their real life bank, or their in game bank.

[Reno_Tarshil]

I do believe this song is valid for the issue at hand.

 

[AlienEyeTX]

They want them cheap because they should be cheap. They are color dyes. And if you remove them, they are lost. There is almost no value in them, outside of the intentional rarity that Bioware has put on the most popular ones.

 

And I'm not talking about the Cartel Market in general. I'm a huge supporter of it and I've spent way more than I should on cartel packs and armor sets. I'm talking specifically about color dyes to allow people to find a look that they like, or heaven forbid, want to try out different looks depending on their mood without having to break either their real life bank, or their in game bank.

 

If you do not think they have any value for you, then don't buy them. Even as a consumable, many people do see value. I'm guessing that most who will spend the cash don't intend to remove the dye any time soon.

[hadoken]

I do believe this song is valid for the issue at hand.

 

 

Yea but now it's sounding like their argument is they 'need' these

[Reno_Tarshil]

Yea but now it's sounding like their argument is they 'need' these

 

The only valid need someone could have for a Dye Module kit is character appearence, But considering they have other ways to get these items, it's pretty silly to waste their energy over a pricing that's prolly not gonna change when they could be doing to earn themselves credits ingame..

[Andryah]

They want them cheap because they should be cheap. They are color dyes. And if you remove them, they are lost. There is almost no value in them, outside of the intentional rarity that Bioware has put on the most popular ones.

 

Value is in the eyes of the beholder.

 

Cheap has nothing to do directly with value. Cheap is largely irrelevant to value which is intrinsic to player taste/desire. This is why in the real world things sell for waaaaaayyyy more then it costs to produce/distribute/profit for the item. cough... iPhone... cough.

 

I understand what you are saying.. but it is completely non sequitur to consumer value propositions in a free market... both in the real world and in virtual gaming worlds.

 

Simple.... if these were not of value.. dye packs would never have sold in mass quantities, the dyes themselves would never sell for multi-million credits in game, and these new direct sells would not sell either. We both know they will.

 

And rarity is of secondary relevance as well. This move to direct sell means these will no longer be "scarce" and yet they will sell like gang busters.. and at lower prices.. but not at 2250 on the GTN.

Edited September 6, 2013 by Andryah

[AMulls]

It is a Value vs Cost issue.

 

Generally.....MMO players are cheap and want lots of value for little cost.. or even for free. But that want does not make it a reality.

 

Fact: once these go live and enter the marketplace.. you will be able to acquire one for about 20% of the price it used to cost you (either via CM, or via GTN). That's a massive price reduction... yet people are complaining.

 

One comment about impact to crafters (no I don't craft these): since crafters were exploiting the desire for approximating the appearance with rep-recipe dyes.. they are going to get hit fairly hard by this as these dyes proliferate. Dyes that they were selling to many players will now be sold to less players (because the lower cost of B/B and W/W will soak up sales previously avoided) and so their market dries up to a noticeable degree. If they made the B/B and W/W dyes $2-5 each (or make them Collections) then the Artifice dye market would get slaughtered.

 

At the end of the day.. Bioware has the entire game and player base to think about. Individual players complaining about what amounts to a large price reduction (even though not large enough for some)... are only interested in themselves.

 

Please read my entire post again. I addressed each of these points there. But to help you out:

The price reduction on the GTN would happen regardless. Because there will be an influx of inventory no matter where they price the dyes. So, yes, I could buy them from the GTN for less. But if you're going to offer them through the CM, you should price them according to their value in game (as a one-time use, consumable item), not based on what their current sale price is on the GTN.

 

I addressed the Artifice market issue as well. If the B/B and W/W dyes are more readily available, then people would be more inclined to try out other color options, instead of being concerned about how much it cost them to get that one dye in the first place. If the replacement cost decreases on the popular dyes, then demand could very well increase on the less popular ones, because people will know they won't be out much if they replace the B/B and W/W with something else. And if they don't like it, they can easily go back to the B/B and W/W and not have to sell a kidney.

 

And finally, I'd argue that asking for a large price reduction in the color dyes, while coming from a desire to save money, IS GOOD FOR THE ENTIRE PLAYER BASE. It would encourage more creative gear choices for EVERYONE. Oh, and it might just garner a bit of goodwill from the fans and show that while Bioware is a business out to make money, it grasps the concept of customer appreciation.