20 bucks for a one use dye, REALLY?

[DOHboy]

Yea it's cheaper than the alternative, but don't expect these guys to understand (or rather, admit) that.

 

Logic and a 2x4 upside the head..only one of these will work unfortunately.

[TUXs]

Yea it's cheaper than the alternative, but don't expect these guys to understand (or rather, admit) that.

 

What do you base this on? You're making something up and trying get us to admit you're right!? lol no...it doesn't work that way.

Logic and a 2x4 upside the head..only one of these will work unfortunately.

 

Really? A threat to hit us with a 2x4 because we disagree with your false assertions? Nice...

[hadoken]

What do you base this on? You're making something up and trying get us to admit you're right!? lol no...it doesn't work that way.

 

I'm not interested in having this conversation with someone who believes playing the lottery is a good deal or sure thing. It's clear you don't have any interest in a rational debate.

[oaceen]

very few people want to debate this and would rather just flame anyone who disagrees with their opinion.

[TUXs]

I'm not interested in having this conversation with someone who believes playing the lottery is a good deal or sure thing. It's clear you don't have any interest in a rational debate.

 

You made a claim that I disagree with. You're the only one being irrational. I've asked you to explain how you figure it's now "cheaper"...you haven't. So go...you won't answer anyway.

[Andryah]

What do you base this on? You're making something up and trying get us to admit you're right!? lol no...it doesn't work that way.

 

Let's explore this. Assuming that you (or I) want a B/B dye.. AND artificially confining choices to the CM: 1) buy random dye packs looking for a B/B OR 2) Buy the B/B dye directly

 

Which would you choose and why?

 

I would choose to buy it directly because my chances of getting it for 2000 CCs is 100% certain. Whereas the average number of packs required to hit the lucky B/B is about 4x the cost in CCs. Sure.. I could get lucky and get one sooner.. but that would be luck.. not economics. Economics says my smallest cost to 100% certainty to get a B/B is to buy it directly.

 

Now.. in a few weeks.. the player economy in game will prove me right and you wrong.... as prices for B/B on the GTN drop well below historical norms.

 

I know... I know.. you want to stick with the... "I can get it in the first dye pack I open" gambit. Problem with that gambit is it just does not test well for you. The average is something like 35-40 dye packs from what I can gleen.. and for every lucky monkey that get's one in pack 1..... there are dozens of jaded jacks like this fella. http://fr.reddit.com/r/swtor/comments/1ecjgv/psa_looking_for_blackblack_out_of_84_dye_packs_i/

Edited September 9, 2013 by Andryah

[TUXs]

Let's explore this. Assuming that you (or I) want a B/B dye.. AND artificially confining choices to the CM: 1) buy random dye packs looking for a B/B OR 2) Buy the B/B dye directly

 

Which would you choose and why?

 

I would choose to buy it directly because my chances of getting it for 2000 credits is 100% certain. Whereas the average number of packs required to hit the lucky B/B is about 4x the cost in CCs. Sure.. I could get lucky and get one sooner.. but that would be luck.. not economics. Economics says my smallest cost to 100% certainty to get a B/B is to buy it directly.

 

Now.. in a few weeks.. the player economy in game will prove me right and you wrong.... as prices for B/B on the GTN drop well below historical norms.

 

The claim was that it is CHEAPER! As you have demonstrated, it is not, it's simply ASSURED (something I also pointed out).

 

Where are you getting your numbers from? You claim it would be 4x's as much in packs ($80 in packs) to have a reasonably good chance of getting B/B...where did you get that number from or are you making that up?

 

My belief is that the GTN is already at an exaggerated price. Those willing to sell a B/B are looking to get top credits for it. Those players who only spent $3 on a pack are charging the same exaggerated GTN price as those players who spent $80 (your number). Supply and demand is what the GTN represents...not chances to acquire it. It's rare, but I think it's false to claim that it's "cheaper" to just buy it for $20 when that's pure speculation.

 

Heck, I'd even argue that economically, you'd be better off spending the coins on chance because with every dye pack you open, you have something of "value"...buying just the straight B/B you've invested all $20 into ONE item with nothing more to sell.

 

Again...this boils down to people confusing cheaper with guaranteed.

[LaLiLuLeLolz]

These threads really are getting kinda silly. Some things in life are expensive, deal with it. Stuff is overpriced in real life too folks. "Thousands of dollars for a wedding dress? REALLY?" "Thousands of dollars for a piece of jewelry? REALLY?" "Hundreds of dollars for a brand name shirt? REALLY?" "8 dollars for water at the amusement park? REALLY?" I mean get over it. You don't want it that bad, don't buy it, it really is as simple as that. Don't act like you somehow deserve all this stuff at a price YOU think is reasonable or that people who pay the asking price are fools.

 

Things are worth what people will pay for them.

[LordArtemis]

Well, it looks like it was a temp sale, so the prices on the GTN should not be effected by that much.

[Hambunctious]

They are worth exactly what should have been included in a subscription fee, and they should be attainable by means of gameplay, either crafted with rare materials, or as a extremely rare drop from some mobs in the game. Having it available ALSO for sale in the cash shop for those too impatient to earn it in game would be acceptable.

 

Had they went with format that many of these items were a drop in game that a F2P'er would have to pay to access, then it would have been more acceptable, and less like a money grab.

 

However, there's only one means to attain them. Even DCUO lets subscribers open lock boxes for a free random chance at some item, and then you can sell whatever it is that you get. All at the cost of a subscription.

[DOHboy]

The claim was that it is CHEAPER! As you have demonstrated, it is not, it's simply ASSURED (something I also pointed out).

 

Where are you getting your numbers from? You claim it would be 4x's as much in packs ($80 in packs) to have a reasonably good chance of getting B/B...where did you get that number from or are you making that up?

 

My belief is that the GTN is already at an exaggerated price. Those willing to sell a B/B are looking to get top credits for it. Those players who only spent $3 on a pack are charging the same exaggerated GTN price as those players who spent $80 (your number). Supply and demand is what the GTN represents...not chances to acquire it. It's rare, but I think it's false to claim that it's "cheaper" to just buy it for $20 when that's pure speculation.

 

Heck, I'd even argue that economically, you'd be better off spending the coins on chance because with every dye pack you open, you have something of "value"...buying just the straight B/B you've invested all $20 into ONE item with nothing more to sell.

 

Again...this boils down to people confusing cheaper with guaranteed.

 

Lets see If i can explain this a bit differently and will use some assumptions

 

Assumptions:

1) there are 50 pages of dye kits on the GTN (its a guess, havn't confirmed but numbers will work out nice).

2) there are 10 kits per page on the GTN (again i think this is roughly what is listed)

3) The number of black dyes sold on the GTN will indicate relative availability (again I havn't validated on the GTN feel free). But will put this number at roughly 5. The same can be said for the W/W (Insert actual numbers and can adjust as necessary)

4) that would mean these are roughly 1/100 chance of dropping (I find this to be on the a HIGH estimate of availability, i would speculate to be 1/10 that rate) but will use it.

5) Person in question ONLY wants a B/B dye

6) B/B and W/W are the ONLY ultra rare combinations (additional B/W W/B , B/P, will DECREASE your odds of a success)

 

Assertions:

P(A) is the probability of an Ultra Rare item (.01)

P(B) is the probability of an Ultra Rare item being a B/B (1/2)

 

Thus the Probability of getting a B/B is roughly .005

P(A&B) = P(A) x P(B) = .01 * .5 = .005

 

So ON AVERAGE someone one would need to buy 200 packs to get a B/B dye. Additional Ultra Rare dyes will increase the number of pack required and thus drive up the "cost" of the B/B.

For some it will be cheaper to buy packs, but in general it will require more packs to get to get the item desired, than to buy the item directly for the set price.

 

The price on the GTN does not alwasy reflect its COST. in fact, more often than not items appear BELOW actual cost (which is why some crafters have since stopped crafting). There is more profit in selling materials than actual item.

 

however the GTN is a relative indication of the market VALUE of an item (regardless of its cost).

 

someone wins/steals a porsche does not mean they will sell it for Zero$$ since their COST was nothing. They will sell it for what the overall market value dictates.

[DOHboy]

They are worth exactly what should have been included in a subscription fee, and they should be attainable by means of gameplay, either crafted with rare materials, or as a extremely rare drop from some mobs in the game. Having it available ALSO for sale in the cash shop for those too impatient to earn it in game would be acceptable.

 

Had they went with format that many of these items were a drop in game that a F2P'er would have to pay to access, then it would have been more acceptable, and less like a money grab.

 

However, there's only one means to attain them. Even DCUO lets subscribers open lock boxes for a free random chance at some item, and then you can sell whatever it is that you get. All at the cost of a subscription.

 

you are given free CC via your subscription. The dye kits and dye packs are available on the GTN for FREE (in game credits) which can be obtained from game play so in essence they are.

[Andryah]

Again...this boils down to people confusing cheaper with guaranteed.

 

Setting aside your fantasy that everyone is a winner....

 

Average cost to acquire a B/B dye via direct sale = 2000cc

Average cost to acquire a B/B dye via random dye packs = 9000cc (some are lucky and get one sooner, some are unlucky and get one later.. but this IS the average based on player reported data). Odds estimates vary among players.. but the generous odds are 9000cc... with some players spending well above that for a B/B dye reported publicly.

 

2000cc or 9000cc.... which would you sign up for?

 

I'll take the 2000cc myself.

 

Sure.. there is always the player that will go with the random chance over direct buy. That's a personal choice they are free to make. But the fact remains the odds are stacked against them getting one cheaper then direct buy on a CM purchase.

Edited September 9, 2013 by Andryah

[DOHboy]

Setting aside your fantasy that everyone is a winner....

 

Average cost to acquire a B/B dye via direct sale = 2000cc

Average cost to acquire a B/B dye via random dye packs = 9000cc (some are lucky and get one sooner, some are unlucky and get one later.. but this IS the average based on player reported data).

 

2000cc or 9000cc.... which would you sign up for?

 

I'll take the 2000cc myself.

 

at that rate the 2mil price on the GTN is a STEAL!

[KarmaForce]

with out a collections unlock account wide for 100 CC, they can shove their dyes...

[Hambunctious]

you are given free CC via your subscription. The dye kits and dye packs are available on the GTN for FREE (in game credits) which can be obtained from game play so in essence they are.

 

Being available on the GTN, for which someone paid real money to get, and having the same items as very rare drops in game are two different things.

 

You see, some companies are smart to design their systems to entice players to subscribe, which is a steadier income for the company, gives them access to all content, and not withhold the most popular items to be solely available for cash. On top of all that, they don't make their customers feel like they're being milked for as much money as possible.

 

They could have made dye packs drop in game requiring a key to open. A key that subs get for free, but free players have to buy. The same for cartel packs.

 

It's a darn shame that Sony does a better job of making their customers happy. There's a reason why EA was voted the worst company in America, and tactics like these punctuate the point.

 

At least Sony gave subscribers multiple card packs free each month.

Edited September 9, 2013 by Hambunctious

[Andryah]

There's a reason why EA was voted the worst company in America

 

Which had absolutely nothing to do with this MMO either. You can't make a connection, so stop trying.

 

A lot of people do not like EA for a lot of different reasons.. but SWTOR today is not one of them. If anything.. SWTOR is positive to the overall EA image now given the recovery of the MMO from it's nosedive last summer.

Edited September 9, 2013 by Andryah

[Andryah]

Being available on the GTN, for which someone paid real money to get

 

You assume this, but you don't know for sure. A lot of subscribers convert their free CCs to credits via the CM-2-GTN.

 

Some players pay real money for cartel coins.. if they choose to. But there is a lot of cartel coin float in the subscriber base (millions in fact at any given time) and it costs them nothing to purchase CM content with.. either to keep or to convert.

[Andryah]

It's a darn shame that Sony does a better job of making their customers happy. There's a reason why EA was voted the worst company in America, and tactics like these punctuate the point.

 

At least Sony gave subscribers multiple card packs free each month.

 

So.. is it worth continuing to subscribe to SWTOR.. or are you leaving and going to Sony where apparently they treat you like royalty?

 

Sincere question.

[Andryah]

They could have made dye packs drop in game requiring a key to open. A key that subs get for free, but free players have to buy. The same for cartel packs.

 

Could a, should a, would a.

 

The best way to run an MMO your way.. is to produce an MMO and put the rest of the MMO companies to shame with your high standards of excellence demonstrated rather then presented through rhetoric. With your great ideas and ethics, coupled with crowd funding.. should be a snap to show Bioware how it's done, right?

Edited September 9, 2013 by Andryah

[Hambunctious]

Four "This message is hidden" posts in a row. I love that feature.

[Cernow]

Which had absolutely nothing to do with this MMO either. You can't make a connection, so stop trying.

 

A lot of people do not like EA for a lot of different reasons.. but SWTOR today is not one of them. If anything.. SWTOR is positive to the overall EA image now given the recovery of the MMO from it's nosedive last summer.

 

And you know this how exactly? Did you personally interview everyone who doesn't like EA? Wasn't it you who was saying:

I NEVER pretend to speak for "everyone" in a gaming forum.

 

If you spin any faster you'll make yourself dizzy.

[Hambunctious]

And you know this how exactly? Did you personally interview everyone who doesn't like EA? Wasn't it you who was saying:

 

 

If you spin any faster you'll make yourself dizzy.

 

 

Common sense is lost on some people.

[Andryah]

And you know this how exactly? Did you personally interview everyone who doesn't like EA? Wasn't it you who was saying:

 

No. I applied logic.

 

He attempted to make an unsubstantiated connection between the faux vote for worst company on the internet and it somehow being related to this thread topic.. a product that during the voting period was not even broken out and listed in the EA earnings calls.

 

He made a baseless claim driven by his conflation and I called him on it. Of course he will not respond because I am on his /ignore list.. but I don't care.. my comment was for other readers not him.

 

Next.

Edited September 9, 2013 by Andryah

[Andryah]

Common sense is lost on some people.

 

Indeed.

 

Thank you for admitting your error.