Why Smash Should Not be Nerfed

[NathanielStarr]

 

 

 

You probably are some butthurt BH. And let me tell you that I know of at least 5 PTs in the bastion that'll melt your face off in a jiffy son, and do just fine overall. I noticed you said BH, if not PT then, are you trying to say DD Mercs suck? that's not gonna go well around here... Wait and what's this about "Rather see another class on top"... on top of what? report card fluff-numbers? are you new?

 

This is a silly-fkn-thread anyway... get out of my face ***** nO'Obs...

 

wow a whole 5? isn't that the best server for pvp population? So a whole 5? Out of how many pvpers? How many smashers could melt his face off? Several hundred? Thank you for arguing on the behalf of a nerf.

[iheartnyc]

Has nothing to do with easy, the spec simply takes 0 skill. Force exhaustion, smash, find something that's not on cooldown until they are back up, rinse repeat. Literally a 5 year old could get top dps in a wz with smash spec.

 

Lol now you are trolling. 90% of marauders would disagree with this statement Just remember, for every good smasher, there are 10 bad ones.

 

Also, generally "pressing only one button" is a very poor argument. All those nubs playing Counterstrrike only press activate 1 skill the entire game e.g., left mouse click. It's the timing, positioning and reflexes that really matter. If you think none of these are relevant in SWTOR pvp, then you must be bad.

Edited September 4, 2013 by iheartnyc

[iheartnyc]

Thanks for yours posts guys - And that's why Rage will not be changed at this time. Smash will seem OP until the day the ranged kids stop comparing their CDs to a completely different class and stop expecting/wanting to be a 30m Warrior.... and learn to exploit their own strengths... and leverage their other 7 / 3 team members... and learn to play the class they chose... and L2P.

 

This is my sentiment exactly. A lot of people are comparing apples to oranges. Seriously, comparing a shadow/assasin to a Smasher's CDs? Wow. Let's not forget that Shadow/Assasin has the extra utility of being able to spec TANK if they want to, and having been the best node-guard for over a year! Scoundrel/Operatives could always respec to heals as well, same with Sage/Sorc. Marauder/Sentinel have so little utility in the game, other than leading the front line of attack and pressuring the other team.

[iheartnyc]

OMG THE DEFENSIVE COOL DOWNS.... How come other melee classes can't do the same? Did you ever think you take more damage on the team because you can survive the longest? If I had a PT that could do the same as you guys, I would probably take that same amount of damage as you do. You're argument here is flawed.

 

What other melee class are you referring to? Assasin/Shadow? Oh, they're a stealth class with completely different gameplay mechanics. Oh, they can also respec to tank at will (well not in 2.4 but you have a lot more options in your gameplay). And you're complaining about PT right now? Arguably PT/Vanguard hybrid is the strongest DPS class in Arenas on PTS.

 

OMG THE AOE... Yes it's auto crit aoe. I wish I had abilities that auto crit on my other classes like you guys do. More over, I wish I had an aoe auto crit ability on an orbital strike. The other problem with Smash, is you can't avoid it like you can most other aoe abilities in this game.

 

You can't compare skills across classes - classes are different and have different utilities and functions. Like I mentioned earlier, other DPS classes get things like respec to heals or tank (which you won't be able to do in que in 2.4, but the player still gets "two classes for the price of one").

 

OMG I JUST SUCK.... Good, I would rather see another class on top over smashers. Easy spec. It doesn't take a lot of skill to leap into a group and smash to get numbers. Furthermore, maras and jugs have other specs that will still do good damage unlike some of the other classes like Bounty Hunters.

 

Have you not spent a single day in Arenas man? Vanguard/PT were destroying. Sniper/Gunslinger did really well too.

[NogueiraA]

i'm saying that smash maruders have too much survivability, and undying rage in its current form is a joke

 

Op u didn't post any good arguments either, you are just afraid of a nerf that is fully justified.

 

You play 2 classes that has a 4sec stun... Try to play a marauder, the only class with no 4sec stun.

When you jump on someone, ALL the other guys will atack you because marauder are always the first target to kill... Stunlock to death, try it.

If marauders have less dcd would be the squishiest crap class in the game.

[Simmerr]

Its an AOE Burst class with autocrits, of course it's gonna be OP.

 

That'd be like Maul hitting as an AOE with an autocrit every 30 seconds

 

Or Cull autocritting on people with dots as an aoe every 30 seconds

 

Or heatseeker autocritting and hitting 5 people in the area every 30 seconds

 

Seems ridiculous when you think about it. Wanna know how to fix it? remove the AOE part of the smash

 

Make smash single target

 

Problem solved. Still good pressure and burst, but not an op stackable class in comps

 

This also lines up with the way the Devs answered questions in the marauder or sentinel forum, saying rage was supposed to be burst oriented, not the only aoe spec for marauders. Give every spec slightly better aoe abilities, but remove the OP-ness of autocritting force attacks that hit multiple people. Easy enough for me to figure out...

Edited September 4, 2013 by Simmerr

[iheartnyc]

Its an AOE Burst class with autocrits, of course it's gonna be OP.

 

That'd be like Maul hitting as an AOE with an autocrit every 30 seconds

 

Or Cull autocritting on people with dots as an aoe every 30 seconds

 

Or heatseeker autocritting and hitting 5 people in the area every 30 seconds

 

Seems ridiculous when you think about it. Wanna know how to fix it? remove the AOE part of the smash

 

 

It seems ridiculous that people like you are comparing abilities across classes which are completely different in function and role. I mean really, how can you possibly compare smash with heatseeker? For starters, one is dealt at close range the other is ranged. Ranged DPS can kite and LOS. Smasher can't. Totally different context for the two abilities. Stop trying to compare apples to oranges people, use your brains.

 

But hey, if you want to take away the AOE from Smash, then why don't you give Smash a 30m range (Heatseeker), or actually, just make every one of Smash's abilities ranged while you're at it and I'll happily give up the AOE smash. And if you make all of my abilities ranged, then I'll also happily give up my stealth and guarded by the force in exchange for force speed, an additional stun and ability to heal myself.

 

Shadows can do either DPS, Tank or Node Guard. Sages can do DPS, heals or both. Vanguards can do DPS or tank. Scoundrels can do DPS, heals or Node Guard. Commandos can do DPS or Heals. Guardians can Tank or DPS.

 

Sentinels can only DPS. It has no other function. It's hilarious that those of you who were busily field-respeccing in-game for the past year without abandon are now calling for nerfs to Smash.

Edited September 4, 2013 by iheartnyc

[Cordorian]

It seems ridiculous that people like you are comparing abilities across classes which are completely different in function and role. I mean really, how can you possibly compare smash with heatseeker? For starters, one is dealt at close range the other is ranged. Ranged DPS can kite and LOS. Smasher can't. Totally different context for the two abilities. Stop trying to compare apples to oranges people, use your brains.

 

But hey, if you want to take away the AOE from Smash, then why don't you give Smash a 30m range (Heatseeker), or actually, just make every one of Smash's abilities ranged while you're at it and I'll happily give up the AOE smash. And if you make all of my abilities ranged, then I'll also happily give up my stealth and guarded by the force in exchange for force speed, an additional stun and ability to heal myself.

 

Shadows can do either DPS, Tank or Node Guard. Sages can do DPS, heals or both. Vanguards can do DPS or tank. Scoundrels can do DPS, heals or Node Guard. Commandos can do DPS or Heals. Guardians can Tank or DPS.

 

Sentinels can only DPS. It has no other function. It's hilarious that those of you who were busily field-respeccing in-game for the past year without abandon are now calling for nerfs to Smash.

 

Scoundrel can't really DPS anymore in this game... even DF simply lacks survivablity and see you have to go melee there no chance to effectively heal to full. On the other hand give scrappers an autocrit on shootfirst, and i guess you would be amongst to frist to call for nerfs, because sent would be dead before they could even hit their god like CDs. But as it is the only serious option is to play heals as a scoundrel, as it is for a sentinental to roll focus... why? because it is OP

[NogueiraA]

People saying smash is easy to play... Go there and try to re-burst all the time because the Rage tree is only re-burst.

It's really easy to use Berserk + jump + smash, and after that? You can't mess your cooldowns, a lot of marauders using Force Crush + berserk, Force Charge + Obliterate, Berserk + battering assault, Force Crush in a tagert about to die, Force Crush in a Shadow/sin using shroud, smash with no stacks or no auto-crit etc..

Go there and try to manage all these things, all the "rules" to do the perfect rotation while you're rooted, stunned, mezzed and snared.

Rage isn't easy to play, the FIRST smash yes, it's easy but to keep pushing burst without mess your skills or cooldowns it's hard to play.

Oh do not forget about the defensive cooldowns, you need to know WHEN AND HOW to use them, while thinking in all the other things.

[NogueiraA]

Its an AOE Burst class with autocrits, of course it's gonna be OP.

 

That'd be like Maul hitting as an AOE with an autocrit every 30 seconds

 

Or Cull autocritting on people with dots as an aoe every 30 seconds

 

Or heatseeker autocritting and hitting 5 people in the area every 30 seconds

 

Seems ridiculous when you think about it. Wanna know how to fix it? remove the AOE part of the smash

 

Make smash single target

 

Problem solved. Still good pressure and burst, but not an op stackable class in comps

 

This also lines up with the way the Devs answered questions in the marauder or sentinel forum, saying rage was supposed to be burst oriented, not the only aoe spec for marauders. Give every spec slightly better aoe abilities, but remove the OP-ness of autocritting force attacks that hit multiple people. Easy enough for me to figure out...

 

So, making smash single target, what's the point to play Rage? Marauder damage is a type of defense because you know the class has no 4sec stun right? See the trade here, see the balance? All the other classes has a 4sec stun.. Marauder need something to fill this lack of crowd control.

Making smash single target you HAVE TO give a 4sec stun for marauders, reduce Undying Rage to 1sec. This is balance, the trade between control + damage.

[iheartnyc]

Scoundrel can't really DPS anymore in this game... even DF simply lacks survivablity and see you have to go melee there no chance to effectively heal to full. On the other hand give scrappers an autocrit on shootfirst, and i guess you would be amongst to frist to call for nerfs, because sent would be dead before they could even hit their god like CDs. But as it is the only serious option is to play heals as a scoundrel, as it is for a sentinental to roll focus... why? because it is OP

 

I've never called for nerfs to any class before, and I played madness sorcerer until the bubble-stun nonsense. In fact, I've asked for other DPS classes to get a buff, including scoundrels, in this very thread.

 

Good scoundrels on top teams used to do field-respec on offense all the time in ranked. Also, sentinels used to reroll to combat for Civil War and Huttball. So no, I don't think Smash is as much of a faceroll in a ranked situation as you think it is - maybe it is an issue in regs, where people don't know how to kite, LOS, stun, focus fire or basically move away from a Smasher.

[iheartnyc]

People saying smash is easy to play... Go there and try to re-burst all the time because the Rage tree is only re-burst.

It's really easy to use Berserk + jump + smash, and after that? You can't mess your cooldowns, a lot of marauders using Force Crush + berserk, Force Charge + Obliterate, Berserk + battering assault, Force Crush in a tagert about to die, Force Crush in a Shadow/sin using shroud, smash with no stacks or no auto-crit etc..

Go there and try to manage all these things, all the "rules" to do the perfect rotation while you're rooted, stunned, mezzed and snared.

Rage isn't easy to play, the FIRST smash yes, it's easy but to keep pushing burst without mess your skills or cooldowns it's hard to play.

Oh do not forget about the defensive cooldowns, you need to know WHEN AND HOW to use them, while thinking in all the other things.

 

^ this.

 

In 8man ranked, the Smasher had one of the most difficult roles. It had to simultaneously:

 

-pressure backline

-CC backline

-peel for healers at your backline when needed

-objective capper/interrupter (a guardian should be directing the fight, but when he's got his hands full, the smasher needs to step in) (try to stealth cap inside Novare Coast everytime your force camo is up)

-primary target caller

-be lightning quick when doing a hardswitch on a target that is nowhere close to you

-primary first responder to side nodes

 

On top of keeping track of all of the above, your team expects you to be top 3 damage in all games (following your gunslingers who would probably be top), and also never die.

 

All the while the other team is stunning you, rooting you, kiting you, flashing you, damaging you, pushing you away from your healers.

 

Super easy stuff.

Edited September 4, 2013 by iheartnyc

[AngusFTW]

The argument of something being fine because there is a chance that it might be countered is so stupidly flawed I don't even know where to start on telling you how dumb that post was.

 

The point of undying is to give you 4 more seconds to live without having to worry about getting killed. At all.

Once you lived through those 4 seconds undying has done it's job, what comes after that hasn't got anything to do with the ability.

 

The problem is that you can take FULL healing while being literally invincible. Those 4 seconds of you and your healer not having to worry about dying is stupidly OP.

Its OP with a healer sure but why attack a mara with a healer still standing and you can stun a mara before he even pops it and he'll die because at that stage he'll have nothing.. Personally i'd rather have something akin to shroud then UR. Force camo and rebuke are way more important to me then ur. Force camo basically does the same thing if you have a healer btw everyone drops your target and you can get healed to full since u are taking no dmg..

 

People saying smash is easy to play... Go there and try to re-burst all the time because the Rage tree is only re-burst.

It's really easy to use Berserk + jump + smash, and after that? You can't mess your cooldowns, a lot of marauders using Force Crush + berserk, Force Charge + Obliterate, Berserk + battering assault, Force Crush in a tagert about to die, Force Crush in a Shadow/sin using shroud, smash with no stacks or no auto-crit etc..

Go there and try to manage all these things, all the "rules" to do the perfect rotation while you're rooted, stunned, mezzed and snared.

Rage isn't easy to play, the FIRST smash yes, it's easy but to keep pushing burst without mess your skills or cooldowns it's hard to play.

Oh do not forget about the defensive cooldowns, you need to know WHEN AND HOW to use them, while thinking in all the other things.

Smash is faceroll to play compared to the other mara specs in pvp. The main "difficult" aspect of it is that once people realise you are an op smasher everyone will focus you so you have to play a little bit smart with cds. I play carnage/combat quite a lot because i enjoy it but being stunned in that spec usually screws with your burst big time. While being stunned for me in smash usually just gives me a little time to look around to see where people are stacking to get a nice big smash off. Infact sometimes people will just stack right next to me when i'm stunned and i get a smash off without even moving.. Usually still have the stacks and autocrit buff after stun ends too. No joke.

Edited September 4, 2013 by AngusFTW

[szczypaczek]

smash fanboys still on their crusade to maintain their op status? Yeah go, explain everyone how smash is balanced cause no 4 sec stun pls make my cyro granade channeled and gimme autocrit aoe demo round / HSM, but that would be op, or?

[theSCARAYone]

Your post is the exact opposite of logic..

 

^This

[Helmholtzz]

smash fanboys still on their crusade to maintain their op status? Yeah go, explain everyone how smash is balanced cause no 4 sec stun pls make my cyro granade channeled and gimme autocrit aoe demo round / HSM, but that would be op, or?

 

Oh please please.... I want auto crit AOE Demo round. gimme...please. I will even give up my cryo grenade for that.

Edited September 4, 2013 by Helmholtzz

[Cordorian]

I've never called for nerfs to any class before, and I played madness sorcerer until the bubble-stun nonsense. In fact, I've asked for other DPS classes to get a buff, including scoundrels, in this very thread.

 

Good scoundrels on top teams used to do field-respec on offense all the time in ranked. Also, sentinels used to reroll to combat for Civil War and Huttball. So no, I don't think Smash is as much of a faceroll in a ranked situation as you think it is - maybe it is an issue in regs, where people don't know how to kite, LOS, stun, focus fire or basically move away from a Smasher.

 

Well sure Smash isnt such faceroll in old 8v8, because teams will have your hard counter (which i think is actually even a bit more OP than Smash, but that can really be a perception issue) in snipers. And yes out of utility reasons on some maps or phases of match combat might have higher utility. Still it seems like an unwritten low of competitive PVP that you have to have Smash Sents/Maras and the melee dps spots. I am not talking about tanks or healers respecing, i am talking about a proper melee DPS spot in ranked. Even Smash Guardians wouldnt get it, since they dont have as good cooldowns. You are at the top of the melee DPS food change, have the highest and most reliable burst and about the best survivability. Yes you are a pure DPS class, but this spec dominates.

I dont say it is easy to play as it often claimed, it just has a relatively easy base rotation and resource management to other classes and specs and that your job in ranked is more than just kill red and can be very demanding is out of question for anybody with a sane mind, but it remains that the spec in combination has major advantages when it comes to DPS above all but maybe snipers. Healing 2 Full, LOS and vanish effectively mean a DPS loss in ranked. It is fine when a healer or tank respecs DPS when needed in a situation, but most of the time this class wouldnt be chosen for the DPS spot (yes there are well known exceptions).

And I think you already saw every class would love to have a autocritting, damage increased, AOE attack on relative low CD, that can in principle be avoided but a lot of time hit to quickly to be effectively countered (you need to have targeted the smasher before he leaps basically) combined with the CDs(and it is not like Smash, is your only hard hitting attack).

If you general point is major class balance on a larger scale, I think most people would be with you. Despite playing one, i think Operative healers are OP (in PvP at least, but they are not immortal:P ) and I think something needs to be done about Snipers. How this all is done, is big big question and I think the frame you set with your initial post and the apologetic sound attitude that seems to linger in you replies (i really mean no offence), make this discussion hard at this place.

[foxmob]

maybe it is an issue in regs, where people don't know how to kite, LOS, stun, focus fire or basically move away from a Smasher.

 

this is the kind of post that infuriates me. smash is an instant. if he leaps to you and you punt him, he still has time to get back and execute a fully buffed, instant smash. you cannot avoid smash when YOU are the target. stuns don't outlast the smash window anymore than a punt does. you'd have to unload all of your cds just to *maybe* prevent dmg from ONE smash. that is utterly impractical. they can sort of be kited, except they can apply crush/oblit from 10m and enrage/leap from 30m. finisher is good from 10m. kiting will mitigate dmg from any class, but it's fairly ineffective against smash (only mitigates filler), pyro (only prevents rocket punch), and to a lesser extent, deception (a couple 10m attacks, sprint & tons of cc).

 

spread out = realistic

 

kite = yeah right

 

smash is easy to play, but so is pyro and gunnery. that's not really a fair beef against any spec in this game. I think it's stupid...really really short-sighted...to make an ability with that much burst an aoe instant.

[Evolixe]

Its OP with a healer sure but why attack a mara with a healer still standing and you can stun a mara before he even pops it and he'll die because at that stage he'll have nothing.. Personally i'd rather have something akin to shroud then UR. Force camo and rebuke are way more important to me then ur. Force camo basically does the same thing if you have a healer btw everyone drops your target and you can get healed to full since u are taking no dmg..

 

You just confirmed my post. I mean really, camo already gives you a full *********** reset on a 45 second cooldown.. why do you need another on a 1 minute cooldown? That's ridiculous.

 

And as I said before, I can die during a Shroud. You cannot die during UR. The two are completely different abilities that cannot possebly be compared to one another.

 

The fact that you have 2 full resets just amplifies how OP the class really is. You never have to fall back, stop doing damage for the sake of survival. Not untill you are out of cooldowns. That's ludicrous.

[TonyDragonflame]

You just confirmed my post. I mean really, camo already gives you a full *********** reset on a 45 second cooldown.. why do you need another on a 1 minute cooldown? That's ridiculous.

 

And as I said before, I can die during a Shroud. You cannot die during UR. The two are completely different abilities that cannot possebly be compared to one another.

 

The fact that you have 2 full resets just amplifies how OP the class really is. You never have to fall back, stop doing damage for the sake of survival. Not untill you are out of cooldowns. That's ludicrous.

 

Assasin crying about smash monkeys makes me just /facepalm...

Maybe worse its just sniper crying about smashers...

[TheCourier-]

You just confirmed my post. I mean really, camo already gives you a full *********** reset on a 45 second cooldown.. why do you need another on a 1 minute cooldown? That's ridiculous.

 

And as I said before, I can die during a Shroud. You cannot die during UR. The two are completely different abilities that cannot possebly be compared to one another.

 

The fact that you have 2 full resets just amplifies how OP the class really is. You never have to fall back, stop doing damage for the sake of survival. Not untill you are out of cooldowns. That's ludicrous.

 

Jedi shadow has blackout (25% damage taken reduction) for 24 seconds in a row at the start of a battle. Spinning strike, force potency, shadow strike, force breach, blackout, keep attacking, cloak out, attack, blackout after 4 attacks. Jedi shadows are not squishy. Jedi shadow also has deflection and resilience, and infiltration is a stealth offense spec.

 

Smash is fine as is.

Edited September 4, 2013 by TheCourier-

[Evolixe]

What is the point you're trying to get across?

 

Because mine is that a marauder doesn't have to stop and fall back untill he's out of cooldowns. EVER.

 

I do. Even with a decent level of damage reduction abilities.. they are all counterable.

 

You can't counter Camo and you can't counter UR.

[DarthNethus]

 

You can't counter Camo

Okay, fair enough. Can you counter Force Cloak/stealth?

 

and you can't counter UR.

It's called CC

 

And regarding your earlier argument that They don't ever have to pull back or stop attacking, I'm pretty sure they can't keep attacking during Camo.

 

Just my 2 cents... I play Jugg, not a marauder and I agree that they are pretty nasty. The amount of defensive CD's they have (more than Jugg/Guard) plus the fact that they can put out even more damage than we can in LOLSMERSH spec does seem a bit off... But I don't have any harder of a time with them on my jug than I do with equally skilled/geard sins/shadows or snipers/slingers.

 

Just sayin...

 

Cheers!

[Evolixe]

Okay, fair enough. Can you counter Force Cloak/stealth?

 

Yes. With damage. For the record, if you didn't know, Force Cloak breaks instantly on any damage taken. Camo doesn't.

 

It's called CC

 

And regarding your earlier argument that They don't ever have to pull back or stop attacking, I'm pretty sure they can't keep attacking during Camo.

 

But they don't have to walk back and hide. All they have to do is sit that 4 second stealth out and get healed back up again. I can't stick around, even if i use force cloak. Ill just be taken out by aoe or dots.

 

And CC is not a counter. That marauder is still not going to die. No matter if there is CC or not. That undying WILL do it's job and that Marauder WILL NOT die. Under ANY circumstance.

 

Just sayin...

 

Cheers!

[DarthNethus]

Yes. With damage. For the record, if you didn't know, Force Cloak breaks instantly on any damage taken. Camo doesn't.

 

 

 

But they don't have to walk back and hide. All they have to do is sit that 4 second stealth out and get healed back up again. I can't stick around, even if i use force cloak. Ill just be taken out by aoe or dots.

 

And CC is not a counter. That marauder is still not going to die. No matter if there is CC or not. That undying WILL do it's job and that Marauder WILL NOT die. Under ANY circumstance.

 

Just sayin...

 

Cheers!

 

How is CC not a counter? He has a few seconds of god mode. Freakin CC him through his god mode and negate its usefulness. Yes, he might get some heals in the meantime... And if your team is competent, so will you.

 

What the problem is?