Pyro Buffs

[Brunner_Venda]

I'm 8-8-30 putting up those numbers in HM FP's.

 

Are you talking overall, or zone wide DPS being superior in PvE as AP?

 

On trash, adds, and AOE's I can see it. but, I don't see any higher numbers (than mine as 8-8-30)on parses since 2.4.

 

I would really like to see some parses from AP's that would back up what i'm hearing, that AP > Pyro...I don't care for AP, or I would be more inclined to try it out.

 

and again, all my parses are from random GF q's.

 

I don't really PVE outside of the occasional dailies when I need money.

 

I'm curious to see the AP parses as well though, because I do want to try a few ops someday.

[wetslampigduex]

I'm 8-8-30 putting up those numbers in HM FP's.

 

Are you talking overall, or zone wide DPS being superior in PvE as AP?

 

On trash, adds, and AOE's I can see it. but, I don't see any higher numbers (than mine as 8-8-30)on parses since 2.4.

 

I would really like to see some parses from AP's that would back up what i'm hearing, that AP > Pyro...I don't care for AP, or I would be more inclined to try it out.

 

and again, all my parses are from random GF q's.

 

 

Flashpoints are practice.... that being said I direct you here... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d29VsG35DQM

[T-Assassin]

Flashpoints are practice.... that being said I direct you here... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d29VsG35DQM

 

Well, I'd like to disagree. It is all relative. I only FP because I do not wish to have to be accountable for "scheduled gaming". If I wanna go drink beer or ride my 4-wheeler, I'm not gonna miss that for an Op.

 

Regardless, i'm still not seeing many VG/PT's on the leaderboards, so I was just asking for some evidence to support these AP>Pyro claims.

 

So, I guess 8-8-30 is pretty kick *** for practice. And I'd wager I would do just as well at "game time".

Edited October 7, 2013 by T-Assassin

[Ajaxduo]

AP isn't always superior DPS in PVP. I've found that pyro directly delivers more damage, and you don't have to depend as much on a rotation or a three second channel.

 

In PVE, yeah AP is where it's at.

 

Agreed! Both specs have there advantages. I pulled 2925 DPS during our HM DF run this week. Pretty confident I can pull better numbers than that but the potential is there I just had some 'hiccups'. My favourite part was:

 

"22:54:43.111 Falere's Rail Shot critically hits Grob'thok, Who Feeds the Forge for 12910* energy damage, causing 9682 threat!"

 

Dat crit.

 

Here's a question though. 8/8/30 Vs. 4/6/36?

Edited October 8, 2013 by Ajaxduo

[NogueiraA]

Agreed! Both specs have there advantages. I pulled 2925 DPS during our HM DF run this week. Pretty confident I can pull better numbers than that but the potential is there I just had some 'hiccups'. My favourite part was:

 

"22:54:43.111 Falere's Rail Shot critically hits Grob'thok, Who Feeds the Forge for 12910* energy damage, causing 9682 threat!"

 

Dat crit.

Are you using Hybrid?

[Ajaxduo]

Are you using Hybrid?

 

Nah I was using 4/6/36. With the changes to Thermal Det in 2.4 I'm unsure whether it is now a Dps gain to take it, I doubt it though...

[wetslampigduex]

Well, I'd like to disagree. It is all relative. I only FP because I do not wish to have to be accountable for "scheduled gaming". If I wanna go drink beer or ride my 4-wheeler, I'm not gonna miss that for an Op.

 

Regardless, i'm still not seeing many VG/PT's on the leaderboards, so I was just asking for some evidence to support these AP>Pyro claims.

 

So, I guess 8-8-30 is pretty kick *** for practice. And I'd wager I would do just as well at "game time".

 

lol I had to do it..... also good looks on not getting all bent out of shape

[T-Assassin]

lol I had to do it..... also good looks on not getting all bent out of shape

 

the interwebz doesn't make me mad like it used to...I'm older, wiser, and DGAF...and I know I'm pretty fukken awesome

 

Nah I was using 4/6/36. With the changes to Thermal Det in 2.4 I'm unsure whether it is now a Dps gain to take it, I doubt it though...

 

my best parses came from 4/6/36....BUT, that was when all the stars lined up and my crits were on point. (and not better by much)

 

on average, 8-8-30 parses higher for me.

Edited October 8, 2013 by T-Assassin

[Ajaxduo]

the interwebz doesn't make me mad like it used to...I'm older, wiser, and DGAF...and I know I'm pretty fukken awesome

 

 

 

my best parses came from 4/6/36....BUT, that was when all the stars lined up and my crits were on point. (and not better by much)

 

on average, 8-8-30 parses higher for me.

 

Yeah 4/6/36 seems to be better but only 'slightly' which is abit disappointing. Hopefully Pyro will receive some love in 2.5. They really need to improve the top tier talents. I'd like to see something similar to Madness/Annihilation specs, 'critical hits with your periodic elemental effects heal you for 1/2% of your max health'. It would improve the survivability in PvE slighty. I run as a Powertech Dps in a NiM/HM progression team and there is some 'interesting' utility you can pick up if you choose. I tried 11/7/28 in the new HM Ops and it has performed very nicely, the debuff Combust + Volatile Igniter is awesome. Oil Slick to!

[ScytheEleven]

For the record, a TD-build will parse better in an operations setting. The armor debuff works wonders for TD kinetic explosion.

[T-Assassin]

For the record, a TD-build will parse better in an operations setting. The armor debuff works wonders for TD kinetic explosion.

 

I have noticed this as well, not in Ops, but in HMs (we talking 'bout practice, man) with an armor debuff, I've gotten some very nice parses.

 

Maybe one day i'll try getting in a guild and running some Ops...

[Ajaxduo]

For the record, a TD-build will parse better in an operations setting. The armor debuff works wonders for TD kinetic explosion.

 

Yup good point, I raid with a Jugg Tank and Sniper deeps so the armor debuff is up 24/7. Although is it true that pure AP parsed higher than Hybrid now? I would of thought that Hybrid was slighty 'buffed' with the stacking heat reduction on PFT. Feeling the changes though. Edging 10k crits on Immolate is nice to see. 7k rail shots as AP and 9-10k as Pyro.

[TACeMossie]

Yup good point, I raid with a Jugg Tank and Sniper deeps so the armor debuff is up 24/7. Although is it true that pure AP parsed higher than Hybrid now? I would of thought that Hybrid was slighty 'buffed' with the stacking heat reduction on PFT. Feeling the changes though. Edging 10k crits on Immolate is nice to see. 7k rail shots as AP and 9-10k as Pyro.

 

Its the nerfs to RB/Gut and IM/IR combined with the huge buffs to Immolate/Flame Burst and TD/Assault Plastique that made hybrids go from strongest to weakest spec for PTs and Vanguards. However with the buff to rail shot as well, Hybrid is about as powerful as it was before, just the other specs are now better (Pyro/Assault only barely, AP/Tactics by a lot)

[lordnathanial]

Which is the best full pyro pvp build?

[ukrob]

Yup good point, I raid with a Jugg Tank and Sniper deeps so the armor debuff is up 24/7. Although is it true that pure AP parsed higher than Hybrid now? I would of thought that Hybrid was slighty 'buffed' with the stacking heat reduction on PFT. Feeling the changes though. Edging 10k crits on Immolate is nice to see. 7k rail shots as AP and 9-10k as Pyro.

 

can you put ya spec up please and is this FP/PvP?

[Melon_Lord]

Anyone see this ? http://www.torparse.com/a/450649/3/0/Damage+Dealt

 

While breaching 3500 dps is obviously pretty nice for Bounty Hunters as a whole and Mercs especially. My question is why aren't PT coming close to this? I'm thinking either people haven't upgraded their gear to the same level, and or don't care to post. Although, I'm sure there is a PT out there somewhere in full, or near full 78 who does post, and best I''ve seen from full PT pyro is definitely not 3500, so what's the problem?

[ScytheEleven]

Anyone see this ? http://www.torparse.com/a/450649/3/0/Damage+Dealt

 

While breaching 3500 dps is obviously pretty nice for Bounty Hunters as a whole and Mercs especially. My question is why aren't PT coming close to this? I'm thinking either people haven't upgraded their gear to the same level, and or don't care to post. Although, I'm sure there is a PT out there somewhere in full, or near full 78 who does post, and best I''ve seen from full PT pyro is definitely not 3500, so what's the problem?

 

Merc rail shot is bugged. Both the main hand and off hand hits from Rail Shot on a merc vent 8 heat.

[Asherit]

I hear AP spec is doing quite well, and has strong burst atm with immolate hitting really hard.

 

i agree, yesterday i was killed in 5 sec by a trooper pyro spec on my sorcerer(with buble), totaly surprised, i didn't react.

[Melon_Lord]

Merc rail shot is bugged. Both the main hand and off hand hits from Rail Shot on a merc vent 8 heat.

 

If that is ture, the extra 8 heat vented shouldn't account for that much more dps.

[T-Assassin]

If that is ture, the extra 8 heat vented shouldn't account for that much more dps.

 

Agreed. Heat is not an issue, on either spec. PT and/or Merc. (I play both VG assault and Merc Pyro)...

 

Or is it??? I did some thinking, and comparing.

 

PtH parse...have a look at the "spammable" Power Shot:

 

35.4% 320 Power Shot 657763 1204.27 2055.51 44.38%

 

Have a look at the AVG DMG done...The rest of the parse is almost identical to the higher performing Pyros/Assault...His Rail Shot is a little higher, too (80-100 DPS) I'm gonna say that is gear.

 

Burning (Tech), Rapid Shots, even electronet vs. shoulder cannon is close.

 

So, PT/VG cannot "spam" IP/FB like a Merc can spam Power Shot...and with Power Shot being roughly 700+ DPS higher than those that I compared versus IP/FB...that's the difference, I believe.

 

I'll do some testing on my VG and Merc with identical gear, and see what I get for results.

 

So, the extra heat reduction actually could be the difference, as a 1200 DPS Power Shot can be used w/out ANY need for a Rapid Shot filler.

 

EDIT: My guess is, after a bunch of parses on VG vs. Merc (nearly identical stats, except tree crit%), it looks like gear and set bonus makes quite a significant difference, as well as never having to use Rapid Shots due to heat issues.

Edited October 11, 2013 by T-Assassin

[Melon_Lord]

Agreed. Heat is not an issue, on either spec. PT and/or Merc. (I play both VG assault and Merc Pyro)...

 

Or is it??? I did some thinking, and comparing.

 

PtH parse...have a look at the "spammable" Power Shot:

 

35.4% 320 Power Shot 657763 1204.27 2055.51 44.38%

 

Have a look at the AVG DMG done...The rest of the parse is almost identical to the higher performing Pyros/Assault...His Rail Shot is a little higher, too (80-100 DPS) I'm gonna say that is gear.

 

Burning (Tech), Rapid Shots, even electronet vs. shoulder cannon is close.

 

So, PT/VG cannot "spam" IP/FB like a Merc can spam Power Shot...and with Power Shot being roughly 700+ DPS higher than those that I compared versus IP/FB...that's the difference, I believe.

 

I'll do some testing on my VG and Merc with identical gear, and see what I get for results.

 

So, the extra heat reduction actually could be the difference, as a 1200 DPS Power Shot can be used w/out ANY need for a Rapid Shot filler.

 

EDIT: My guess is, after a bunch of parses on VG vs. Merc (nearly identical stats, except tree crit%), it looks like gear and set bonus makes quite a significant difference, as well as never having to use Rapid Shots due to heat issues.

 

I've been a little surprised at the potential of Power Shot, being able to hit over 6k on the dummy, which means it would be even more with armor debuff. Us poor PT don't have a Elemental/Internal debuff to put on peoples and best Flame Burst I've seen is somewhere around 5.3k, plus Unload I'm sure more has a higher average than Rocket Punch when the 3 main hits are accounted for. Now I'm understanding, I get it's a channeled move and can be easily stopped but and Power Shot is much the same, but in operation settings, RDPS should just be able to freely do whatever for most of the fight. I think Power Shot needs a small nerf, or Flame Burst needs a small buff. Lets still not forget how Unload has a 75% chance to proc Rail Shot and can hit six times where Rocket Punch is only 60% and hits once. Devs still need to work on a couple things as far as same tree balance for Bounty Hunters.

[easeyway]

RP has a CD of 9 seconds. Proc chance 60%

Unload has a CD of 15 seconds. Proc chance 75%

 

5*0.6 = 3 (5 casts -> 3 procs on average)

4*0.75 = 3 (4 casts -> 3 procs on average)

 

5 casts of RP is 9*5 = 45 seconds.

4 casts of Unoad is 4*15 = 60 seconds.

 

RP has a 25% advantage compared to Unload.

 

Other Powertech advantages include instant casts on both proc abilities, whereas Mercenary procs at the beginning of Unload, but at the end of Powershot. This means the Mercenary has to keep in mind which ability previously procced Railshot, because it affects the time he can fish for another proc.

 

But, because of ability pushback, interrupts, and alacrity, this is impossible to be effectively done in practice.

 

In short: adding the 6 second cooldown to Railshot proc mechanism destroyed Pyro Mercenary in a very fundamental level. Powertechs do no understand this, as they can think of 6 seconds purely as 4 Global Cooldowns. Mercs cannot, because of the aforementioned ability pushback and interrupts. Looking at ability cooldowns to deduce whether it's time to fish for proc or not is also too clumsy to be effectively pulled off in PvP at least. Even if you did, you are losing a lot of procs compared to Powertechs. Even if you start only 0.1 seconds late. In theory, in a 12 minute match, this is already 12*60*0.1=72 seconds. 72 seconds of not proccing Rail when the PT will. Also, like mentioned before, RP procs 25% MORE often than Unload. As a Merc, you are hitting far less Railshots that deal less DMG.

 

What the Mercs do have, is 30m range on both proc abilities. But if you count how many classes have a gap closer that can be used against Mercs (they all have, 100% of classes), range in this game is not a considerable advantage to Mercs. With multiple levels and platforms, some classes that don't have a gap closer in the form of a leap/pull can be in trouble, but that's only huttball. As a Merc Pyro, you are never fighting from 30m. You don't have the tools to fight there, and everybody has the tools to bring the fight to you. So don't make the range advantage to be such a huge deal.

 

Unlike the guy above, I play both classes, all specs. I don't have a bias towards one like him. Nerf Powershot? LoL. Yeah Pyro Mercs are really putting out too much DPS in both PVE and PVP because of POWERSHOT.

Edited October 12, 2013 by easeyway

[Melon_Lord]

Unlike the guy above, I play both classes, all specs.

 

If you did play Merc Pyro, you'd know Unload has 12 CD

 

Also, I specifically said in an operation setting, and you go on to talk about PVP

Edited October 12, 2013 by Melon_Lord

[T-Assassin]

Unlike the guy above, I play both classes, all specs. I don't have a bias towards one like him. Nerf Powershot? LoL. Yeah Pyro Mercs are really putting out too much DPS in both PVE and PVP because of POWERSHOT.

 

I also play both Merc and VG.

 

Personally, after MANY, MANY parses, in identical gear (I swap legacy gear between the 2) I find that in similar gear, they parse almost identical.

 

What's going on is comparing apples to oranges. PvE and PvP. Which as any Merc knows has it's strengths and weaknesses, just as VG.

 

What the difference is, and the explanation on PtH's sexy parse is gear and the pretty nice set bonus (15% crit on PS, which is quite substantial).

 

Again, I run a little different spec than most...I'm not raiding, or even in a guild, but 6 #1 VG parses, 1 #2's, and 5 #3's in HM FP's leads me to believe I'm doing something right...in 72/72/66 gear, no set bonuses

 

Just started playing my Merc in FP's, so I expect to very competitive, as well.

 

In Ops and BiS gear, I'd wager they are quite similar.

 

P.S. Mercs do need some jump immunity or cast on the move in PvP!!

Edited October 12, 2013 by T-Assassin

[easeyway]

If you did play Merc Pyro, you'd know Unload has 12 CD

 

Also, I specifically said in an operation setting, and you go on to talk about PVP

 

I haven't really played Pyro Merc much post 2.0, so sorry for missing/forgetting that. So, they fixed one thing. All the other points still remain.

 

And yes, I go to talk about PvP, because that's the only kind of gameplay where balance BETWEEN classes really matter.

 

Spec A being superior to spec B doesn't take away spec B's ability to clear dungeon X, as long as spec B is viable to do said content in the first place.

 

Spec A being superior to spec B does however take away spec B's ability to do Warzone Y against said spec.

 

I mean, it would nice that all classes would be equally wanted in operations and all. But balancing should always be done PvP first. Despite all the PvE-carebears insisting this is a PvE game, the game has - and has always had - PvP.

 

Either balance PvP first, or remove PvP.

 

Personally, after MANY, MANY parses, in identical gear (I swap legacy gear between the 2) I find that in similar gear, they parse almost identical.

 

This is a good point, and I believe you. They are both bad specs atm. But the point I'd like to add: if you parse identical parses with a caster and a class that has all abilities instant...The caster will always do worse in a PvP environment. As long as there are interrupts, the caster will always lose. And, there are far more gap closers than there are gap makers. So, range doesn't matter, like I said previously.

 

And this brings us to why the sniper is the only viable caster class in PvP, from a game mechanics standpoint.

Edited October 15, 2013 by easeyway