Proposed Dev Juggernaut Questions *Not Final*

[lMarlfoxl]

PvP

We the community believe that the most outstanding issue with the juggernaut dps tree's are their lack of adequate cooldowns with an emphasis on "Enraged Defense." In the Vengeance Tree "Enraged Defense" is arguably one of the best cooldowns for dps juggernauts. In the rage tree however it is almost useless when fighting 1v1 and incredibly useless when being focused by multiple enemies. A solution to the Rage Tree "Enraged Defense" would be to increase the amount of healing received by the skill or to make it similar to the Vengeance Tree "Enraged Defense." Also it will be extremely important to remove the resource cost of the skill and the resource cost while the skill is active in both trees. As it stands by using "Enraged Defense" for both trees you are inhibiting your ability to put out dps. We understand that in PvP scenarios rage juggernauts put out an incredible amount of pressure and damage, but the damage to survivability ratio is severely imbalanced. We also understand that juggernauts have the utility to taunt and mitigate damage to other players, but you can't taunt if you cannot survive.

Question: What solutions/thoughts does the combat development team have regarding the above issue?

 

 

PvE

Outside of an armor debuff, which can be applied by multiple other classes/role assignments, Juggernaut DPS has very limited group utility. Off-tanking or emergency tanking is not encouraged by any mechanics at end-game, and is not practical without sacrificing competency in our primary role as damage dealers. Similarly, abilities such as Enraged Defense and Intercede, will providing increased survivability, detract from our primary function as damage dealers (Intercede for using a global to do something other than damage and ED for the Rage cost), causing our already unimpressive damage potential to dip even further; they are also completely unneeded in end-game PvE. With the current state of affairs with regards to class balance, a group would be better served bringing a Juggernaut tank, a Sniper, or a Mercenary for their armor debuff, due to other benefits provided by those classes/roles in addition to the armor debuff. This leaves Juggernaut DPS players without something that they can offer a group as far as utility abilities are concerned. Further, Juggernaut DPS is woefully lacking with the exception of one specific spec in one specific fight in the current tier of content.

 

Question: Is it intended that Juggernauts' damage output and group utility while using either of the DPS trees be sub-par due to the fact that we have the option of fulfilling the tank role?

 

General

Vengeance currently suffers from two distinctive problems which affect its performance in both PvP and PvE.

 

First is the dependency on the Rampage proc to refresh Ravage. Unlike many other specs, Vengeance can not refresh Ravage through ability spam, as both Impale and Shatter have significant cooldowns accompanied with a comparatively low proc chance of similar abilities (30%). Given the long 30 sec cooldown on Ravage, this creates great variance in damage performance when DPS and rage generation dip down due to a 'no proc' scenario.

 

Second is the fact that Ravage is a melee channel, and suffers from all the vulnerabilities that go with these types of abilities. Much of its damage can be avoided simply with movement (which leaves the Juggernaut outside of melee range) and it can be be shut down with mezzes, stuns, knockbacks, etc. This is a significant issue due to how little damage our filler abilities deal, leaving Vengeance at great risk of being shut down completely in group PvP environments after the initial Ravage (from unstoppable).

 

To be clear, the community enjoys Ravage and considers it the cornerstone of the spec.

 

Question: With this in mind, would the combat team consider making some changes to ensure Vengeance can more easily deal reliable and consistent single target damage in PvE and PvP?

[ssfish]

I'm not really happy with the line:

"Similarly, abilities such as Enraged Defense and Intercede, will providing increased survivability, detract from our primary function as damage dealers (Intercede for using a global to do something other than damage and ED for the Rage cost), causing our already unimpressive damage potential to dip even further; they are also completely unneeded in end-game PvE."

 

I threw it in there as a preemptive against the Intercede argument, but my thought is that we shouldn't need to go down that road. If they use Intercede as an argument for our utility, then I think that says all that they really need to say.

[kennethdale]

The only big issue I see is that in PvE, Enraged Defense is simply useless in all specs. It isn't strong because after the initial (4 rage cost) tick threat should be back on the tank and the rest is wasted, if a boss does hit us the heal will do absolutely nothing to relieve pressure off of healers, using it absolutely rage-starves us. Add to that that a simple Guard usually will prevent us from pulling (even if it would be better served on a different DPS) and that the only reason most Vengeance DPS spec into it is that Seething Hatred is worthless in PvE encounters since the fights are invariably longer than the CD of either Saber Throw or Force Charge and its absolute worthlessness just grows exponentially. I can't speak to PvP but that is PvE.

[Marb]

Edits and comments in yellow.

 

PvP

We the community believe that the most outstanding issue with the juggernaut dps tree's are their lack of adequate cooldowns with an emphasis on "Enraged Defense." In the Vengeance Tree "Enraged Defense" is arguably one of the best cooldowns for dps juggernauts. In the rage tree however it is almost useless when fighting 1v1 and incredibly useless when being focused by multiple enemies. A solution to the Rage Tree "Enraged Defense" would be to increase the amount of healing received by the skill or to make it similar to the Vengeance Tree "Enraged Defense." Also it will be extremely important to remove the resource cost of the skill and the resource cost while the skill is active in both trees. As it stands by using "Enraged Defense" for both trees you are inhibiting your ability to put out dps. We understand that in PvP scenarios rage juggernauts put out an incredible amount of pressure and damage, but the damage to survivability ratio is severely imbalanced. We also understand that juggernauts have the utility to taunt and mitigate damage to other players, but you can't taunt if you cannot survive.

Question: What solutions/thoughts does the combat development team have regarding the above issue?

 

~I'm really not keen on that question at all, it neglects its pve implementation. I think Karyus's or my own alternative addresses both concerns.

 

PvE

Outside of an armor debuff, which can be applied by multiple other classes/role assignments, Juggernaut DPS has very limited group utility. Off-tanking or emergency tanking is not encouraged by any mechanics at end-game, and is not practical without sacrificing competency in our primary role as damage dealers. Similarly, abilities such as Enraged Defense and Intercede, will providing increased survivability, detract from our primary function as damage dealers (Intercede for using a global to do something other than damage and ED for the Rage cost), causing our already unimpressive damage potential to dip even further; they are also completely unneeded in end-game PvE.

~paragraph break

With the current state of affairs with regards to class balance, a group would be better served bringing a Juggernaut tank, a Sniper, or a Mercenary for their armor debuff, due to other benefits provided by those classes/roles in addition to the armor debuff. This leaves Juggernaut DPS players without something that they can offer a group as far as utility abilities are concerned. Further, Juggernaut DPS is woefully lacking with the exception of one specific spec in one specific fight in the current tier of content. ~I'm not sure if this sentence makes this question sound a bit dramatic, even if it's true.

 

Question: Is it intended that Juggernauts' damage output and group utility while using either of the DPS trees be sub-par due to the fact that we have the option of fulfilling the tank role?~I'm expecting them to say that "juggernauts are meeting dps milestones using our internal tests". Even if utility were addressed for us, we would still be in a position of redundancy due to being eclipsed by marauder and sniper dps. Are we expressing a concern with our utility, or a concern with our dps, or both?

 

General

Vengeance currently suffers from two distinctive problems which affect its performance in both PvP and PvE.

 

First is the dependency on the Rampage proc to refresh Ravage. Unlike many other specs, Vengeance can not refresh Ravage through ability spam, as both Impale and Shatter have significant cooldowns accompanied with a comparatively low proc chance of similar abilities (30%). Given the long 30 sec cooldown on Ravage, this creates great variance in damage performance when DPS and rage generation dip down due to a 'no proc' scenario.

 

Second is the fact that Ravage is a melee channel, and suffers from all the vulnerabilities that go with these types of abilities. Much of its damage can be avoided simply with movement (which leaves the Juggernaut outside of melee range) and it can be be shut down with mezzes, stuns, knockbacks, etc. This is a significant issue due to how little damage our filler abilities deal, and how little rage we have to spend on them. This leaves Vengeance at great risk of being shut down completely in group PvP environments after the initial Ravage (from unstoppable).

 

To be clear, the community enjoys Ravage and considers it the cornerstone of the spec.

 

Question: With this in mind, would the combat team consider making some changes to ensure Vengeance can more easily deal reliable and consistent single target damage in PvE and PvP?

Edited August 27, 2013 by Marb

[Kawabonga]

PvP

We the community believe that the most outstanding issue with the juggernaut dps tree's are their lack of adequate cooldowns with an emphasis on "Enraged Defense." In the Vengeance Tree "Enraged Defense" is arguably one of the best cooldowns for dps juggernauts. In the rage tree however it is almost useless when fighting 1v1 and incredibly useless when being focused by multiple enemies. A solution to the Rage Tree "Enraged Defense" would be to increase the amount of healing received by the skill or to make it similar to the Vengeance Tree "Enraged Defense." Also it will be extremely important to remove the resource cost of the skill and the resource cost while the skill is active in both trees. As it stands by using "Enraged Defense" for both trees you are inhibiting your ability to put out dps. We understand that in PvP scenarios rage juggernauts put out an incredible amount of pressure and damage, but the damage to survivability ratio is severely imbalanced. We also understand that juggernauts have the utility to taunt and mitigate damage to other players, but you can't taunt if you cannot survive.

Question: What solutions/thoughts does the combat development team have regarding the above issue?

 

The above isn't really an issue... Juggs already have the best defensive cooldowns in the game. Saber ward is an excellent cd. Endure pain is an excellent second chance ability and saber reflect is so overpowered i feel bad when i use it. I'm afraid asking this question is begging for a l2p response, just like vanguards and sorcs got.

 

Also, taunts are an *excellent* utility tool, arguably the best one considering bloodthirst's long cd and ballistic shield's requirement to stay within it's radius to benefit from it. They're so damn good that i'm surprised they didn't make them only useable with soresu form/dark charge/ion gas cylinder (in 30-54 pvp i can pull 100k protection with taunts on my PT, and i'm far from being the best pvper around). Also, as far as utility goes quake is a pretty good skill to take. Sacrificing damage for utility is expected.

 

 

PvE

Outside of an armor debuff, which can be applied by multiple other classes/role assignments, Juggernaut DPS has very limited group utility. Off-tanking or emergency tanking is not encouraged by any mechanics at end-game, and is not practical without sacrificing competency in our primary role as damage dealers. Similarly, abilities such as Enraged Defense and Intercede, will providing increased survivability, detract from our primary function as damage dealers (Intercede for using a global to do something other than damage and ED for the Rage cost), causing our already unimpressive damage potential to dip even further; they are also completely unneeded in end-game PvE. With the current state of affairs with regards to class balance, a group would be better served bringing a Juggernaut tank, a Sniper, or a Mercenary for their armor debuff, due to other benefits provided by those classes/roles in addition to the armor debuff. This leaves Juggernaut DPS players without something that they can offer a group as far as utility abilities are concerned. Further, Juggernaut DPS is woefully lacking with the exception of one specific spec in one specific fight in the current tier of content.

 

Question: Is it intended that Juggernauts' damage output and group utility while using either of the DPS trees be sub-par due to the fact that we have the option of fulfilling the tank role?

 

While not "encouraged", even more so than off-healing, emergency tanking is a doable thing. Of course for a very limited time, perhaps just enough time for the tank to be resurrected and topped off, which is less than the 12 seconds of saber ward, a well placed saber reflect and endure pain. All during which there's no need to interrupt whatever it is you're doing as dps in most encounters. At most the waste is 2 gcds to switch to soresu and back to shien or shi-cho.

Because of this, just like sorcs can heal2full as dps spec and need to l2p, juggs can funnywordsthatinvolvetanking as dps... I'm afraid that just as they stated that sorcs are working as intended, the same will go for juggs, especially considering that damage output is about the same.

 

General

Vengeance currently suffers from two distinctive problems which affect its performance in both PvP and PvE.

 

First is the dependency on the Rampage proc to refresh Ravage. Unlike many other specs, Vengeance can not refresh Ravage through ability spam, as both Impale and Shatter have significant cooldowns accompanied with a comparatively low proc chance of similar abilities (30%). Given the long 30 sec cooldown on Ravage, this creates great variance in damage performance when DPS and rage generation dip down due to a 'no proc' scenario.

 

Second is the fact that Ravage is a melee channel, and suffers from all the vulnerabilities that go with these types of abilities. Much of its damage can be avoided simply with movement (which leaves the Juggernaut outside of melee range) and it can be be shut down with mezzes, stuns, knockbacks, etc. This is a significant issue due to how little damage our filler abilities deal, leaving Vengeance at great risk of being shut down completely in group PvP environments after the initial Ravage (from unstoppable).

 

To be clear, the community enjoys Ravage and considers it the cornerstone of the spec.

 

Question: With this in mind, would the combat team consider making some changes to ensure Vengeance can more easily deal reliable and consistent single target damage in PvE and PvP?

 

Good question

[Treblt]

The above isn't really an issue... Juggs already have the best defensive cooldowns in the game. Saber ward is an excellent cd. Endure pain is an excellent second chance ability and saber reflect is so overpowered i feel bad when i use it. I'm afraid asking this question is begging for a l2p response, just like vanguards and sorcs got.

\

 

No.

 

Incredibly. No.

 

You have never played a DPS Guardian at a high level of PvP obviously.

They need a slight boost to ED because as is, it is a class/role that is outright not taken for being so squish.

 

Lets be truthful, the devs will respond with either L2P, or there is no issue due to our internal testing/metrics that mean nothing in a meta heavy end game pvp system..

 

Vengeance has it about right, but Rage is awful on a juggy.

Edited August 27, 2013 by Treblt

[ssfish]

 

While not "encouraged", even more so than off-healing, emergency tanking is a doable thing. Of course for a very limited time, perhaps just enough time for the tank to be resurrected and topped off, which is less than the 12 seconds of saber ward, a well placed saber reflect and endure pain. All during which there's no need to interrupt whatever it is you're doing as dps in most encounters. At most the waste is 2 gcds to switch to soresu and back to shien or shi-cho.

Because of this, just like sorcs can heal2full as dps spec and need to l2p, juggs can funnywordsthatinvolvetanking as dps... I'm afraid that just as they stated that sorcs are working as intended, the same will go for juggs, especially considering that damage output is about the same.

 

 

First, damage output is not "about the same." Sorcs, when played properly/well, far outstrip the Juggernaut in most fights, due in large part to their ranged nature.

 

Second, emergency tanking is doable, and should probably be differentiated in the question. But, Saber Reflect is not effective in every fight, Saber Ward is not always up, and the waste in switching stances is not just 2 GCDs, it's also the Rage dump involved.

 

Besides, balancing the classes around people failing at their job (hence emergency tanking) is a horrible design decision, and if they decide to give us that answer, then that says all I need to hear.

Edited August 27, 2013 by ssfish

[Kawabonga]

No.

 

Incredibly. No.

 

You have never played a DPS Guardian at a high level of PvP obviously.

They need a slight boost to ED because as is, it is a class/role that is outright not taken for being so squish.

 

Lets be truthful, the devs will respond with either L2P, or there is no issue due to our internal testing/metrics that mean nothing in a meta heavy end game pvp system..

 

Vengeance has it about right, but Rage is awful on a juggy.

 

if by high level pvp you mean the 8v8 rateds that will disappear soon then no, i haven't. I just do regular 55 pvp and most of the time i tank when on my jugg.

I did do some dpsing though, and i was pleased with the experience, but maybe i was just lucky to enter good matches. It doesn't change the fact that rage aoe damage is unrivalled. In these cases, when survivability is an issue, usually there term of reference is "glass cannon". I'd be more inclined to define rage juggs as glass nuclear bombs.

With an aoe slow, mezz, friendly and enemy leap, a push that resets leap we do have the tools to retreat from the frontline for enough time to get healed, and with taunts we have an excellent group utility. Anyway, dps shouldn't be able to survive long if being focused down, and jugg ttk is far from the worst

 

But then again, i'm mainly a tank... The only question i could come up with regarding pvp is "are you going to nerf us or buff the other classes?" If there aren't any other pressing issues with dps might as well fire that question.

 

 

 

First, damage output is not "about the same." Sorcs, when played properly/well, far outstrip the Juggernaut in most fights, due in large part to their ranged nature.

 

Second, emergency tanking is doable, and should probably be differentiated in the question. But, Saber Reflect is not effective in every fight, Saber Ward is not always up, and the waste in switching stances is not just 2 GCDs, it's also the Rage dump involved.

 

Besides, balancing the classes around people failing at their job (hence emergency tanking) is a horrible design decision, and if they decide to give us that answer, then that says all I need to hear.

 

Damage output according to the dps leaderboards (i imagine they are playing it right) isn't that far off. Considering in an actual fight a jugg doesn't have to reapply armor debuff religiously and rage gains an execute i would say they are fairly close. Also, sorcs sure are ranged, but they also have lot's of channeled abilities and need to remain static to cast. Some fights favour them, some fights favour melee that can move while attacking (titan comes to mind).

As for the emergency tanking, where saber reflect isn't effective there's blade turning that can protect from a hit or two. And if saber ward isn't up then balls, even though i rarely saw dps using it in ops...

You're perfectly right about the rage dump, i didn't think about that...

Just for the record, i'm trying to think like whoever will answer these questions think. I don't agree with the whole "since you can off-tank, your dps must suffer" mentality, but seen the answers to the sorcs i fear that's exactly what we're gonna get

Edited August 27, 2013 by Kawabonga

[wadecounty]

The sorcs got those answers because they asked about PvP and being able to cast their abilities and/or defensive cooldowns. If you check their questions again, they didn't even bring up PvE DPS.

[Lowarro]

PvP

We the community believe that the most outstanding issue with the juggernaut dps tree's are their lack of adequate cooldowns with an emphasis on "Enraged Defense." In the Vengeance Tree "Enraged Defense" is arguably one of the best cooldowns for dps juggernauts. In the rage tree however it is almost useless when fighting 1v1 and incredibly useless when being focused by multiple enemies. A solution to the Rage Tree "Enraged Defense" would be to increase the amount of healing received by the skill or to make it similar to the Vengeance Tree "Enraged Defense." Also it will be extremely important to remove the resource cost of the skill and the resource cost while the skill is active in both trees. As it stands by using "Enraged Defense" for both trees you are inhibiting your ability to put out dps. We understand that in PvP scenarios rage juggernauts put out an incredible amount of pressure and damage, but the damage to survivability ratio is severely imbalanced. We also understand that juggernauts have the utility to taunt and mitigate damage to other players, but you can't taunt if you cannot survive.

Question: What solutions/thoughts does the combat development team have regarding the above issue?

 

This question covers enraged defense, but not completely. The tanking specs have a large issue with enraged defense and the built in threat drop. Granted the this is the PvP question and threat is a PvE concern, but I feel as a tank spec a little left out. In fact the tank spec is not really mentioned in any of the three questions. I know the tank spec is in a rather good place, but it shouldn't be ignored in these questions.

[wadecounty]

This question covers enraged defense, but not completely. The tanking specs have a large issue with enraged defense and the built in threat drop. Granted the this is the PvP question and threat is a PvE concern, but I feel as a tank spec a little left out. In fact the tank spec is not really mentioned in any of the three questions. I know the tank spec is in a rather good place, but it shouldn't be ignored in these questions.

 

I see no reason to ask about it when its clear we're not intended to use Enraged Defense as a tank, and even without using it, we're still perfectly capable of clearing all content including nightmare modes.

 

If anything, look at it as a bonus that you get to use it in certain specific situations in PvE, or whenever you want in PvP. But don't think of it like a cooldown tanks are supposed to have, as that was obviously never its intended purpose.

[Mightmir]

Hi

 

I think the questions are too specific, and are pointing at something, that the devs don’t even recognize as an issue. I think we are at risk to get an answer, like the Sorcerer did. I propose to use the first round of questions (the Juggernought Questions) to get the information, how the dev team see the Guardian/Juggarnought. In the second round of questions (the Guardian questions) we can ask specific questions

 

The questions could be like this:

 

1. Defence/Immortal

 

How do you (dev Team) envision the defence Guardian/Juggernought to be?

 

To answer the question please tell us if the defence Guardian/Juggernought is on spot in specific areas like:

 

A. mitigation

 

B. spikiness

 

C. cool downs

 

D. tanking DPS (single target and AOE)

 

E. agro (single and AOE)

 

F. scaling with gear in points A,B,D

 

Please, back up your answers with math (mitigation, spikiness and scalability with gear), overall performance charts from your metric tools and make comparisons to the vanguard and shadow tanks. Be as specific as you can on describing of the “on spot” window.

 

 

 

2. Vigilance

 

How do you (dev-Team) envision the vigilance-guardian to be

To answer the question please, tell us if the vigilance-guardian is on spot in specific areas like:

 

a. Burst DPS in PVE and PVP

 

b. Sustained DPS in PVE and PVP

 

c. Utility in PVE and PVP

 

d. Survivability in PVE und PVP

 

e. Scaling with gear for points a and b

 

Please back up your answers with math, comparison charts with top dps (gunslinger/sentinel) and charts from your metric tools. Be as specific as you can on describing of the “on spot” window.

 

 

 

3. Fokus/Rage

 

How do you (dev Team) envision the vigilance-guardian to be

To answer the question please, tell us if the vigilance-guardian is on spot in specific areas like:

 

a. Burst DPS in PVE and PVP

 

b. Sustained DPS in PVE and PVP

 

c. Utility in PVE and PVP

 

d. Survivability in PVE und PVP

 

e. Scaling with gear for points a and b

 

Please back up your answers with math, comparison charts with top DPS and charts from your metric tools. Be as specific as you can on describing of the “on spot” window.

 

Thanks

[Luckygunslinger]

Hi

 

I think the questions are too specific, and are pointing at something, that the devs don’t even recognize as an issue. I think we are at risk to get an answer, like the Sorcerer did. I propose to use the first round of questions (the Juggernought Questions) to get the information, how the dev team see the Guardian/Juggarnought. In the second round of questions (the Guardian questions) we can ask specific questions

ilance-guardian is on spot in specific areas like:

 

Issue with the Sorcs were that their questions were pretty... bad. They were too broad so bioware just shrugged at it. We're being specific with the issues and where they fall down (PVP and PVE) so we can get Bioware's pure attention on those three big issues. We're saying that X is really bad in PVE so they look at it from a PVE perceptive. Leaving it too broad will make them think "Well... they have this to use in PVP." When realistically we outlined the issue to be in PVE. Being too specific is better than being too broad. We have 3 questions, PVE, PVP and General. As it stands. The Tank is perfect, or near enough to it, the DPS is the issue in all grounds of Raids and Warzones.

 

Damage output according to the dps leaderboards (i imagine they are playing it right) isn't that far off. Considering in an actual fight a jugg doesn't have to reapply armor debuff religiously and rage gains an execute i would say they are fairly close. Also, sorcs sure are ranged, but they also have lot's of channeled abilities and need to remain static to cast. Some fights favour them, some fights favour melee that can move while attacking (titan comes to mind).

As for the emergency tanking, where saber reflect isn't effective there's blade turning that can protect from a hit or two. And if saber ward isn't up then balls, even though i rarely saw dps using it in ops...

You're perfectly right about the rage dump, i didn't think about that. Still, fulfilling the emergency tank role justifies a dps loss.

 

Just for the record, i'm trying to think like whoever will answer these questions think. I don't agree with the whole "since you can off-tank, your dps must suffer" mentality, but seen the answers to the sorcs i fear that's exactly what we're gonna get

 

DPS leaderboard on a dummy is not a reflection on NiM raids. There are a hand full of fights which I call 'Test Dummy that fights back'. Sorcs are ranged, they have minimal movement to do and their procs are consistent and predictable, they also have 2 stacks of an autocrit, DoT's and more. As for Titan 6? Ranged are better, why? because Melee are stepping over eachothers toes during 'Lots of Missiles'. Melee have a hard time in that fight if you have too many of them, plus, Vengeance becomes an issue because a fair few mechanics in that fight can force you to break Ravages cast. And as the issue stands, yes, we can be emergency tanks and we do it well, but we shouldn't have the possibility hurt our DPS. The most work an offhealer has to really do is pop a combat rez and continue on the fight in DPS while the healers get themselves back and ready.

 

Juggernaut will out DPS Sorcs in some fights, but the Sorc has a lot more advantages over the juggernaut. Plus, saving Saber Ward for an emergency tank situation that may arise is silly. That's like forcing a Sorc to not use their FU Bubble during a NiM mechanic because they may need it later. Less damage taken at all times is better than possible less damage taken in the future.

Edited August 27, 2013 by Luckygunslinger

[ssfish]

I'm just going to say it again:

 

Emergency Tanking - If they are making balance decisions that are predicated on someone (in this case the tanks) failing to do their job, then there is something wrong with their thought process.

[kennethdale]

Issue with the Sorcs were that their questions were pretty... bad. They were too broad so bioware just shrugged at it. We're being specific with the issues and where they fall down (PVP and PVE) so we can get Bioware's pure attention on those three big issues. We're saying that X is really bad in PVE so they look at it from a PVE perceptive. Leaving it too broad will make them think "Well... they have this to use in PVP." When realistically we outlined the issue to be in PVE. Being too specific is better than being too broad. We have 3 questions, PVE, PVP and General. As it stands. The Tank is perfect, or near enough to it, the DPS is the issue in all grounds of Raids and Warzones.

 

DPS leaderboard on a dummy is not a reflection on NiM raids. There are a hand full of fights which I call 'Test Dummy that fights back'. Sorcs are ranged, they have minimal movement to do and their procs are consistent and predictable, they also have 2 stacks of an autocrit, DoT's and more. As for Titan 6? Ranged are better, why? because Melee are stepping over eachothers toes during 'Lots of Missiles'. Melee have a hard time in that fight if you have too many of them, plus, Vengeance becomes an issue because a fair few mechanics in that fight can force you to break Ravages cast. And as the issue stands, yes, we can be emergency tanks and we do it well, but we shouldn't have the possibility hurt our DPS. The most work an offhealer has to really do is pop a combat rez and continue on the fight in DPS while the healers get themselves back and ready.

 

Juggernaut will out DPS Sorcs in some fights, but the Sorc has a lot more advantages over the juggernaut. Plus, saving Saber Ward for an emergency tank situation that may arise is silly. That's like forcing a Sorc to not use their FU Bubble during a NiM mechanic because they may need it later. Less damage taken at all times is better than possible less damage taken in the future.

 

I tend to agree with this. The Sorcs basically asked "Why is okay that we are so squishy and get shutdown so easily?" and got answers to those SPECIFIC questions. We aren't referencing our DPS squishiness (though, it is a large issue for Vengeance/Rage in PvP) we are simply addressing a very specific aspect of our DPS (Rampage procs) and the hugely negative impact it can have on our DPS.

 

I think we should shuffle around the questions a bit. Asking about another cool down in PvP is likely to get us an answer about how we already have a very effective defensive CD suite (in reality, we do have one of the best PvE defensive CD suites in the game) whereas the issues of Enraged Defense are much more comparable in PvE. If we were to bring up our PvP defensive suite they could simple count our options versus our sister class, Marauders: we get Saber Ward, Endure Pain, Saber Reflect, and Enraged Defenses they get Cloak of Pain, Saber Ward, Force Camouflage, and Undying Rage and for both their last CD has a significant cost (Enraged Defenses in Rage, Undying Rage in health). While I don't agree with this comparison is can be made. For all these reasons, I see the Enraged Defense question as more of a General one.

 

Our group utility, on the other hand, is something that definitely affects us in all aspects of the game. However, we need to be specific that we are talking about Offensive group utility. If we just state we are lacking in utility, we are again leaving ourselves open to the answer of "Well, you can off-tank and that is your utility" and while this is true (I have personally done it many, many times) it has no effect or bearing on our Offensive utility. Now, all of that said, the truth is Juggernauts are still being taken to high-end, end-game Ops because of the player behind the Juggernaut in spite of their lack of utility. The place where DPS Juggernauts suffer, in my opinion, is PvP. Vigilance is just too squishy and too easily shut down to contribute to Ranked teams and Rage is simply out-striped by Marauders cool down suite. Therefore, I feel that the group Offensive utility question should be our PvP question, remembering that any changes to this would have an effect on PvE.

 

Finally, based on the Sentinel questions, Rage is meant to be burst and by extension we can assume that the devs believe that Vengeance is sustained DPS which if we take in PvP terms (Burst is King) that Rage is meant to be our PvP spec. I want to stress that I don't necessarily agree with this assessment, in fact I despise the simplicity of Rage, I just think this will get us the best answers. As such, we should focus on Vengeance in PvE and be very specific that it can only compete when we get good RNG and that our procs do not compare with similar procs in other classes. Remember that any positive change in our proc-rate or frankly anything to do with Rampage would have a positive effect in PvP. We'd merely be tailoring this question to PvE.

[ssfish]

I'm not talking about offensive utility in the question I wrote. I'm talking about raid utility. This can come in a number of forms (sniper shield being an obvious non-offensive raid utility). Off-tanking, as was pointed out in the question, is not encouraged at all in end-game PvE content. If you want an example of a mechanic that encourages (which isn't the same as "requires") off-taunts, look at the tank fight in EC.

 

There are a number of places where they could have made DPS taunts a great utility, such as the white spheres on Kephess. But they actually went the other direction in further limiting it's use by DPS (Dash'roode adds cannot be taunted in NiM). They actively removed mechanics that provided a use for DPS classes with taunts. If they then throw it back in our face like that is supposed to be our utility, then I just don't know what to say.

 

And again, emergency tanking can be done. The fights are not designed to encourage it, so the classes should not be balanced with it in mind.

[gogator]

They need a slight boost to ED because as is, it is a class/role that is outright not taken for being so squish.

 

Lets be truthful, the devs will respond with either L2P, or there is no issue due to our internal testing/metrics that mean nothing in a meta heavy end game pvp system..

 

Vengeance has it about right, but Rage is awful on a juggy.

 

Imo we see dps juggernauts squishy in pvp not because they really are but because of marauder's friggin defensive cooldowns. If smash marauder's defensive cooldowns are toned down a bit then we would not be seen 'that' squishy (well maybe compared to snipers but i don't see them much of a problem). I mean intercede, saber reflect and saber ward are pretty good defensive cd's at least compared to other AC's.

 

That being said, i think for 'enraged defense' question, devs will give an answer something like this: enraged defense is never intended to be a strong cd especially in rage since there are already strong cd's and it's burst spec, can have everything and such.

 

For raid utility question, i don't do raids much but they will most likely say that internal metrics show us juggernauts are on par (in fact they look like they are close to 5% range with commandos and sages in http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=664980 and they have said 'working as intended for far worse AC's *cough*assassins*cough*)

 

3rd question is great but for the first and second questions, some changes might be needed. As a suggestion, I am sorry I don't have any as i haven't spent much time brainstorming on this rather I was occupied more with class balance issues in pts and frankly i don't have any issues with juggernauts expect rampage rng.

 

Long story short, either way i appreciate all the work done.

[ssfish]

For raid utility question, i don't do raids much but they will most likely say that internal metrics show us juggernauts are on par (in fact they look like they are close to 5% range with commandos and sages in http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=664980 and they have said 'working as intended for far worse AC's *cough*assassins*cough*)

 

 

Dummy parses don't tell the whole story, because they do not account for raid mechanics. There isn't a single end-game fight where we get to just go to town like we do on a dummy. Mercs and Sorcs are both ranged classes, which are not punished at all in raids, whereas Juggernauts are a melee class and have to deal with the majority of raid mechanics; and this is only compounded when there are other melee in the group for fights where stacking is bad.

[kennethdale]

I'm not talking about offensive utility in the question I wrote. I'm talking about raid utility. This can come in a number of forms (sniper shield being an obvious non-offensive raid utility). Off-tanking, as was pointed out in the question, is not encouraged at all in end-game PvE content. If you want an example of a mechanic that encourages (which isn't the same as "requires") off-taunts, look at the tank fight in EC.

 

There are a number of places where they could have made DPS taunts a great utility, such as the white spheres on Kephess. But they actually went the other direction in further limiting it's use by DPS (Dash'roode adds cannot be taunted in NiM). They actively removed mechanics that provided a use for DPS classes with taunts. If they then throw it back in our face like that is supposed to be our utility, then I just don't know what to say.

 

And again, emergency tanking can be done. The fights are not designed to encourage it, so the classes should not be balanced with it in mind.

 

I understand your point and while you are absolutely correct, I think its safest to assume a "explaining something to a 5yo" approach to the intelligence of the devs. Honestly. I believe that if we leave it open-ended as simply utility, then we will be told that we have utility in our defensive CDs and in our taunt and that will be the end. I understand your frustration with that but we should seek to benefit our class as much as is possible rather than trying to stick 100% to our principles.

[ArenCordial]

I understand your point and while you are absolutely correct, I think its safest to assume a "explaining something to a 5yo" approach to the intelligence of the devs. Honestly. I believe that if we leave it open-ended as simply utility, then we will be told that we have utility in our defensive CDs and in our taunt and that will be the end. I understand your frustration with that but we should seek to benefit our class as much as is possible rather than trying to stick 100% to our principles.

 

This isn't a bad point.

 

What if for extra utility they just give us something like a droid cc? That doesn't really do much for us but technically that's increased raid utility.

 

I doubt we'd end up with anything unique because that's the Sniper/Mara shtick.

Edited August 28, 2013 by ArenCordial

[Marb]

Removing the rage cost and rage consumption from Enraged Defense would be enough to at least make it usable for all specs in PvP. Its annoying that it isn't very good, but the rage costs attached to it restricts its (trivial) use as a defensive cooldown in pvp. This is a safe and reasonable way to come at the question, as this change would have the flow on effect of making it usable as a threat drop in pve.

 

Charging into the question with the hopes of a revamped enrage defense will probably be met with skepticism.

Edited August 28, 2013 by Marb

[ArenCordial]

Removing the rage cost and rage consumption from Enraged Defense would be enough to at least make it usable for all specs in PvP. Its annoying that it isn't very good, but the rage costs attached to it restricts its (trivial) use as a defensive cooldown in pvp. This is a safe and reasonable way to come at the question, as this change would have the flow on effect of making it usable as a threat drop in pve.

 

Charging into the question with the hopes of a revamped enrage defense will probably be met with skepticism.

 

It would be the easiest solution but I think the high rage cost was simply to act as a deterrent for Immortal Spec. They really don't need another cool down.

 

That's why I think they left most of the benefit in the form of talents in the DPS trees. Reduced Cost for Rage and improved DR for Veng.

[ArenCordial]

I'm going to take a stab at the PvP and PvE question. Note that KBN got away with asking multiple questions in the Sentinel PvE question so I'm taking a similar approach here so we can really get at BioWare's thoughts on the class and how they see us/want us balanced.

 

PVP

 

Enraged Defense is a somewhat awkward ability in the Juggernaut's suite. It acts as both a threat dump and a defensive cooldown but unlike the majority of abilities that perform those roles it requires resource consumption. As a result the opinions on its value range greatly from spec to spec. Many Rage players don't believe the cost is worth the benefit. PvP Vengeance players think the ability is very handy with the Deafening Defense talent. It is commonly believed that the high cost was to deter Immortal players from using another cooldown, but it’s not certain if it is having the desired effect. Given the ability's odd traits we question whether the developers intent to inhibit a player's ability to do damage with cooldowns.

 

Question: What were the design thoughts behind Enraged Defense? Would the combat team agree that the Rage consumption is an awkward mechanic and it may be prudent to reexamine the ability to reduce its cumbersome nature?

 

PvE

 

The Juggernaut community is concerned over its viability in providing attractive end game dps and utility to raid progression groups. The community believes this is due to a trio of issues that directly affect the class.

 

First there is a wide-spread preference among raid groups for ranged DPS over melee due to reduced uptime issues from raid mechanics and mobility issues, allowing ranged classes with a similar damage potential gain the lead in damage dealt over melee. As a result when taking a melee DPS, raid groups will want those that can provide a higher damage profile and greater utility than the class currently provides (other than Rage’s famous AoE potential).

 

Second is the Juggernauts hybrid utility is often unneeded or ineffective. Off-tanking or emergency tanking are mostly undesirable for they are rarely used and on such occasions where it can be used, the Juggernaut must sacrifice performance in their primary role as DPS not to mention the high damage involved in NiM content to challenge elite tanks is more than enough to eat through a DPS's defensive capabilities.

 

Lastly the only other true utility provided is the armor debuff, which can be provided by more than a few other end game popular classes making the skill redundant. This often leaves Juggernaut DPS players without something that they can offer a group as far as utility abilities are concerned. As a result classes that can provide more utility and up time are often favored ahead of what the Juggernaut can bring.

 

Question: What is the intended role and utility for Juggernaut DPS in elder game content? Do you believe the Juggernaut is achieving those goals? How do the developers seek to balance the complex issues of ranged vs melee dps as well as single role versus multirole classes both in terms of DPS potential and group utility?

 

 

 

 

---------

 

Ok that said I'm trying not to step on the devs toes. Just point out how were see our problems and say where do you see us. Hopefully there is something in there you guys think you can use.

 

Personally though I've got to agree with Kennethdale in regards to PvE question, I really doubt BioWare is going to give our class any unique abilities if they did decide to give us something it would most likely be something one of the other hybrid AC's already has. We might just be better off asking why we are the only class lacking an Offensive Cooldown if we want the most bang for our buck.

 

Of course I do really want the answers to the PvE question I posted above, I just don't think it will get us anywhere.

Edited August 28, 2013 by ArenCordial

[Marb]

It would be the easiest solution but I think the high rage cost was simply to act as a deterrent for Immortal Spec. They really don't need another cool down.

 

That's why I think they left most of the benefit in the form of talents in the DPS trees. Reduced Cost for Rage and improved DR for Veng.

 

I agree, I think that was the idea behind the rage cost. The best solution would be to turn the ability into a flat rage free threat dump in its base form. Deafening Defense would stay as it is, and From Passion in the rage tree would provide a healing effect. No tank would use it then, as it would just be a threat dump without the skills from high up in the dps trees.

 

I would hope they come to the same conclusion, the rage cost is a wonky way of deterring tanks from using it, and it unfairly punishes dps juggernauts for using it as a threat dump or a defensive cooldown.

Edited August 28, 2013 by Marb

[Kawabonga]

I'm going to take a stab at the PvP and PvE question. Note that KBN got away with asking multiple questions in the Sentinel PvE question so I'm taking a similar approach here so we can really get at BioWare's thoughts on the class and how they see us/want us balanced.

 

PVP

 

Enraged Defense is a unique cooldown in SWTOR. Its the only ability to act as both a threat dump and a defensive cooldown untalented. It is also unique in that it is the only defensive cooldown that requires resource consumption. As a result the opinions on its value range greatly from spec to spec. Many Rage players don't believe the cost is worth the benefit. PvP Vengeance players think the ability is very handy with the Deafening Defense talent. It is commonly believed that the high cost was to deter Immortal players from using another cooldown. While understandable we question whether the developers intent to inhibit a player's ability to do damage with cooldowns.

 

Question: What were the design thoughts behind Enraged Defense? Would the combat team agree that the Rage consumption is an awkward mechanic and it may be prudent to reexamine the ability to reduce its cumbersome nature?

 

Force camouflage acts as both threat dump and defensive cooldown as well, as long as you keep it up.

I don't think the rage cost is the deterrant for immortal juggs... That would probably be the threat dump. Rage is hardly an issue in immortal spec. Saving enrage for enraged defense will easily solve the issue (for immortals)

That said, the question is very well posed, very difficult to answer with a l2p or a h2f. Same for the second question

Edited August 28, 2013 by Kawabonga