Marauder class representative: Sample questions!

[znihilist]

The Devs stated their intent for each spec in their response to to the Sentinel questions:

 

 

 

I think we should push further on this topic. There are a couple of follow-up questions/topics to this:

 

 

1. What is their reality right now? KBN stated he believed Rage/Focus was 9% behind on single target, but the Devs asserted 4%. Part of their explanation included the ever-popular lack of execute ability for the spec (when compared to Carnage/Combat). Based on their assertion is the 4% discrepancy the intended difference between sustained damage and burst damage? Further, there is some evidence showing that Carnage/Combat is the top performing sustained damage. Are we more likely to see a buff to Annihilation/Watchmen or a nerf to Carnage/Combat?
    
   
2. How long will it take to realize the intended balance? We rarely see class balance changes, and when we do it is usually widespread change - ie many classes and many abilities. Thus, is their plan to get to this intended state in 12m, 18m or when? What prevents this from being implemented more quickly?
    
   
3. How do the intended damage profiles manifest themselves in PvP and PvP? In other words, do they intend for each class to be viable in every situation? Or will there be spec specialization?
    
   

 

The point being, I want greater clarity/definition/specifics on what their intentions are. I think the community would benefit from this as it would allow us to validate/test the Devs aims as well as adjust our specs/playstyles accordingly. Thus, if Annihilation/Watchman is never going to be viable in PvP due to the shorter nature of fights, then the community should know this now and adjust to a different spec.

 

I would love if we did this, it will clear up a lot of things for us.

I give my vote to this!

[kennethdale]

Fundamentally, I believe Annihilation/Watchmen does offer a higher DPS ceiling than Carnage/Combat right now, but Carnage/Combat offers an easier path to great damage. Incidentally, I believe Annihilation/Watchman offers an easier path to good damage.

 

In other words, I think an good player can post better numbers as Annihilation/Watchman, a great player can post better numbers as Carnage/Combat, and an exceptional player can post better numbers as Annihilation/Watchman. This appears heuristically accurate based on the top TORParse parses, where we see a number of great Carnage/Combat parses, and very few Annihilation/Watchman. (I think this was easier to see when the gear was capped at 72s.)

 

Assuming this is true, I believe the delta between the two specs is less than 5%, maybe as small as 2-3%. Considering the greater volatility in Carnage/Combat, I wonder if the 2-3% is the right amount...

 

I absolutely agree but I worded my question as I did particularly because I want to see their answer, as it seems do you.

 

In response to KBN: I am off tomorrow so I will give it a try but I will admit that my Mara isn't the most geared so don't expect huge, huge numbers. Also, given that the double SA favors Annihilation slightly, would it be more fair to run SA/BA for both just to present a level playing field?

 

Incidentally, I was doing NiM Dread Guards earlier today and had a few attempts in a row with terrible RNG got frustrated and respecced Annihilation. The difference was rather shocking: In Carnage, I was starting the fight at around 3.2K and steadily dropping. On an attempt that I got Doomed twice in a row, I dropped all the way down to 1.6k but was able to fight it back up to ~2.2k on Ciphas until Kel'sara where I dropped down to 1.9k and we wiped. When I switched to Annihilation I would start out at ~2k and it would build steadily. The highest attempt I ended with was 2.4k. I can't say if it was a fluke but perhaps running the super long dummy parses will shed some light as I do honestly believe that the difference comes down to time on target. As was pointed out, a large portion of the Carnage DPS happens in that first 9 seconds and after that the DPS comes closer and closer to the theoretical maximum for that particular gear set. Honestly, I doubt that given any amount of skill past a certain time frame that Carnage would outperform Annihilation simply from the fact that in general Annihilation parses rise over time and Carnage parses fall.

Edited August 23, 2013 by kennethdale

[Emperor-Norton]

I absolutely agree but I worded my question as I did particularly because I want to see their answer, as it seems do you.

 

In response to KBN: I am off tomorrow so I will give it a try but I will admit that my Mara isn't the most geared so don't expect huge, huge numbers.

 

Incidentally, I was doing NiM Dread Guards earlier today and had a few attempts in a row with terrible RNG got frustrated and respecced Annihilation. The difference was rather shocking: In Carnage, I was starting the fight at around 3.2K and steadily dropping. On an attempt that I got Doomed twice in a row, I dropped all the way down to 1.6k but was able to fight it back up to ~2.2k on Ciphas until Kel'sara where I dropped down to 1.9k and we wiped. When I switched to Annihilation I would start out at ~2k and it would build steadily. The highest attempt I ended with was 2.4k. I can't say if it was a fluke but perhaps running the super long dummy parses will shed some light as I do honestly believe that the difference comes down to time on target. As was pointed out, a large portion of the Carnage DPS happens in that first 9 seconds and after that the DPS comes closer and closer to the theoretical maximum for that particular gear set. Honestly, I doubt that given any amount of skill past a certain time frame that Carnage would outperform Annihilation simply from the fact that in general Annihilation parses rise over time and Carnage parses fall.

I looked at some of my Combat parses and removed the first 30 seconds (which means I lose my Opener with Inspiration, Adrenal, relic, etc.) and I still was doing better Sustained than when I tried out Watchman with 6 stacks of Juyo and 4 of Merciless off the start. My DPS in Combat also seemed rather consistent.

 

When it comes to the effect of Carnage falling and Annihilation rising is more due to the later DPS smoothing itself out in the face of the slow opener in the case of Annihilation or the big opener in the case of Carnage. Like an asymptote, your DPS will get closer to a theoretical maximum (for Annihilation) or theoretical minimum (for Carnage) but will never reach it. The problem is that the Minimum for Carnage is higher than the maximum for Annihilation.

 

Something I think is important to note in the game is the changing needs of PvE Content. Operations design has moved away from the Tank and Spank fights we saw with Operations like Eternity Vault (First Boss, Second Boss, and Fourth Boss in a way) and Karagga's Palace (all fights really) in favor of fights with downtime and fights which reward you for being able to focus your damage in specific windows of time. While this is undoubtedly a good thing in the aspect of having more varied and challenging PvE Content, it creates content more favorable to bursty specs like Carnage over sustained specs like Annihilation.

Edited August 22, 2013 by Emperor-Norton

[kennethdale]

I looked at some of my Combat parses and removed the first 30 seconds (which means I lose my Opener with Inspiration, Adrenal, relic, etc.) and I still was doing better Sustained than when I tried out Watchman with 6 stacks of Juyo and 4 of Merciless off the start. My DPS in Combat also seemed rather consistent.

 

When it comes to the effect of Carnage falling and Annihilation rising is more due to the later DPS smoothing itself out in the face of the slow opener in the case of Annihilation or the big opener in the case of Carnage. Like an asymptote, your DPS will get closer to a theoretical maximum (for Annihilation) or theoretical minimum (for Carnage) but will never reach it. The problem is that the Minimum for Carnage is higher than the maximum for Annihilation.

 

Something I think is important to note in the game is the changing needs of PvE Content. Operations design has moved away from the Tank and Spank fights we saw with Operations like Eternity Vault (First Boss, Second Boss, and Fourth Boss in a way) and Karagga's Palace (all fights really) in favor of fights with downtime and fights which reward you for being able to focus your damage in specific windows of time. While this is undoubtedly a good thing in the aspect of having more varied and challenging PvE Content, it creates content more favorable to bursty specs like Carnage over sustained specs like Annihilation.

 

I have to say that I disagree on nearly all points. First off, in regards to your personal DPS, your observations are sort of irrelevant due to the fact that you possess greater proficiency with one spec or the other; for example, I will freely admit that I consider myself to be better at Annihilation than Carnage, yet until recently the differential in DPS has been ~50-100 DPS in favor of Carnage. This is in spite of me playing Annihilation very well and making many mistakes in Carnage which based on that one could argue that Carnage is more forgiving than Annihilation and therefore is the easier spec but I do not believe either to be "easier" in general. Carnage requires split-second reactions (in terms of using Gore windows) whereas Annihilation requires long-term planning (in terms of planning movments, Annihilates, and tracking extremely short duration DoTs). While some may find one easier than the other, that does not make it true for all. For example, I was trying to teach a friend who always only plays Carnage to play Annihilation and they got so frustrated at having lost Annihilator 3 times in row that he rage-logged.

 

In regards to the maximum potential of each spec, you are most definitely wrong: Oofalong has done math in the past that indicates the ceiling for Annihilation sits at about 3800 dps which far outstrips anything, any Carnage Marauder has come close to. As stated previously, until recently in spite of considering myself better at Annihilation than Carnage, I was doing better DPS in Carnage. I did recently upgrade a plethora of pieces (5 enhancements, 2 implants, bracers, 6 mods, 2 hilts, 2 relics, and I switched from Might to Overkill augs) and only after these changes did I see any significant change to the differential between Carnage and Annihilation.

 

I'm not at home so I can't give figures including buffs, companion buffs, etc but I do have a spreadsheet with my on-gear stats (keep in mind that I use different implants for Carnage and Annihilation and that this is pre-stim/adrenal):

 

Carnage:

Strength - 1851

Power - 1690

Accuracy - 230

Surge - 534

Endurance - 2304

 

Annihilation:

Strength - 1851

Power - 1699

Accuracy - 381

Surge - 374

Endurance - 2304

 

So the only real discrepancies are surge and power with there being a difference of 9 power (in favor of Annihilation) and 61 Surge (in favor of Carnage). Also of note is that my accuracy in Carnage is <100% whereas in Annihilation it is >100%.

 

Based solely on Oofalong's spreadsheet (which does not include companion boost to accuracy) my theoretical maximum DPS is 2870, which is something I have never replicated. But I would wager a hell of a lot that my theoretical Carnage DPS is not that high.

 

As a side note to Oofalong, why is the amount I calculated simply adding numbers from my gear 70 points higher than the amount of power listed in yours?

[Lafay]

I have played anni since release so i know it well, and when i can practice carnage for a couple hours and get the same dps as a finely tuned anni, somethin is wrong. I agree in the statement that there are many occasions when carnage is better than annihilation, several where its close, and non where anni is better.

 

This needs to change by BW's own statement that anni is supposed to be the best long time on target spec for damage. As it sits now, anni is pretty much useless in pvp and pve if you know how to play carnage.

 

As for PVP, Please make the agonizing sabers increase to 10% plus absorb 10% of a healers healing output, and give some dot protection, longer anni stacks, there its fixed.

 

as for PVE, give annhilation a crit rate buff on annhilate with anni stacks, so 4 stacks = 20% more crit, that should fix it.

[kennethdale]

Just finished uploading the two 17 minute logs. No adrenals were used because frankly I'm terrible at clicking them on time so I simply removed them for equality sake. Both specs used UW SA/Ark SA. Below are the stats used for each spec (the only difference in gear was surge implants for Carnage and Accuracy for Annihilation):

 

Carnage 5/36/5

Strength - 2544

Presence - 470

Aim - 57

Cunning - 57

Endurance - 2907

Willpower - 113

Expertise - 0

Accuracy - 230

Critical Chance - 0

Critical Multiplier - 525

Power - 1770

 

Annihilation 36/8/2

Strength - 2544

Presence - 470

Aim - 57

Cunning - 57

Endurance - 2907

Willpower - 113

Expertise - 0

Accuracy - 381

Critical Chance - 0

Critical Multiplier - 374

Power - 1770

 

Carnage DPS - 2553.52

Annihilation DPS - 2580.63

 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~My Thoughts~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The Carnage DPS seemed to plummet very quickly and then stabilize completely after ~5 mins whereas Annihilation stabilized about 470 seconds at about 2650 but then I started making mistakes (Berserking just as 3 stack DS dropped off, delaying Annihilates too long, etc) and it started to fall a bit, but not as harshly as Carnage. In Carnage I had 94 SA procs and in Annihilation I had 123 so the double SA definitely favors Annihilation. Also, in my haste to get started with the Annihilation parse, I started without Juyo form on and subsequently when I started again I had 30 stacks of Fury however I did not have any stacks of Juyo or Annihilator. Earlier someone mentioned player fatigue and I definitely think that became an issue for both parses after ~10 minutes because the monotony sets in and things get a bit sloppy.

Edited August 23, 2013 by kennethdale

[oofalong]

Let me respond to some specific points here, be warned I am going to alter the order of your questions/concerns:

 

Based solely on Oofalong's spreadsheet (which does not include companion boost to accuracy)

 

I believe it does; if you look in cell G9 of the Stat - Values & Percents tab, you should see a +1% to Accuracy from your Companion. By default this is always on as I presume anyone attempting to min/max will have this buff. Incidentally, the model also assumes all relevant datacrons have been found.

 

In regards to the maximum potential of each spec, you are most definitely wrong: Oofalong has done math in the past that indicates the ceiling for Annihilation sits at about 3800 dps my theoretical maximum DPS is 2870, which is something I have never replicated.

 

To be clear, the math I did shows the expected damage for Annihilation/Watchman. Based on optimal Underworld (72) gear the expected DPS is ~2,900; based on optimal Kell Dragon (75) gear it is ~3,100. Note both of these estimates do not include the benefit of Bloodthirst/Inspiration and the Weaponmaster's buff from the 4-piece set bonus.

 

The purpose of the model was to understand how to gear your character and provide a baseline DPS target. In other words, input your build and you are given a DPS target. If you are consistently significantly below this target than there is opportunity to improve as a player via practice on the dummy.

 

As a side note to Oofalong, why is the amount I calculated simply adding numbers from my gear 70 points higher than the amount of power listed in yours?

 

I don't understand this question. Feel free to PM to discuss specifics on your use of my model.

[oofalong]

...

When it comes to the effect of Carnage falling and Annihilation rising is more due to the later DPS smoothing itself out in the face of the slow opener in the case of Annihilation or the big opener in the case of Carnage. Like an asymptote, your DPS will get closer to a theoretical maximum (for Annihilation) or theoretical minimum (for Carnage) but will never reach it. The problem is that the Minimum for Carnage is higher than the maximum for Annihilation.

...

 

Let me make sure I understand you correctly, you are saying the the minimum expected DPS for Carnage is higher than the maximum for Annihilation - can you show evidence of this?

[AscendentReality]

Just finished uploading the two 17 minute logs. No adrenals were used because frankly I'm terrible at clicking them on time so I simply removed them for equality sake. Both specs used UW SA/Ark SA. Below are the stats used for each spec (the only difference in gear was surge implants for Carnage and Accuracy for Annihilation):

 

Carnage 5/36/5

Strength - 2544

Presence - 470

Aim - 57

Cunning - 57

Endurance - 2907

Willpower - 113

Expertise - 0

Accuracy - 230

Critical Chance - 0

Critical Multiplier - 525

Power - 1770

 

Annihilation 36/8/2

Strength - 2544

Presence - 470

Aim - 57

Cunning - 57

Endurance - 2907

Willpower - 113

Expertise - 0

Accuracy - 381

Critical Chance - 0

Critical Multiplier - 374

Power - 1770

 

Carnage DPS - 2553.52

Annihilation DPS - 2580.63

 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~My Thoughts~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The Carnage DPS seemed to plummet very quickly and then stabilize completely after ~5 mins whereas Annihilation stabilized about 470 seconds at about 2650 but then I started making mistakes (Berserking just as 3 stack DS dropped off, delaying Annihilates too long, etc) and it started to fall a bit, but not as harshly as Carnage. In Carnage I had 94 SA procs and in Annihilation I had 123 so the double SA definitely favors Annihilation. Also, in my haste to get started with the Annihilation parse, I started without Juyo form on and subsequently when I started again I had 30 stacks of Fury however I did not have any stacks of Juyo or Annihilator. Earlier someone mentioned player fatigue and I definitely think that became an issue for both parses after ~10 minutes because the monotony sets in and things get a bit sloppy.

 

Your right on certain premises of carnage spec. The reason for carnage spec being spikey and difficult to manage is exactly what your pointed out to, the fall in term of damage. There will be inevitable falls due to execute and slaughter procs, however for the most part, it stabilizes around 3-4 min mark, from that point on, how much you can stabilize your carnage damage is just how you put together the rest of your abilities, in which order, how things proc'ed, how you reacted to those procs. I can get into details if you want to send me PMs, but I'd rather not make this a huge wall of text explaining how on specific Carnage reactions.

And as Oofalong have pointed out, your 3800 dps is clearly baseless, the highest stationary dummy parse that I know of is Ranick's 3195 with carnage on a dummy. Which is posted with mostly full KD, but no main hand. So as for the overall damage output. Anni vs Carnage is not as huge as people make it appear (which I was once guilty of), and each spec present their own set of challenges.

For carnage, the challenge have clearly been stated by previous posts. For annihilation is keeping up the stacks, not clipping dots, and using the correct fillers at any given moment.

 

The biggest difference between the two specs as it stands right now is just how the operation is currently designed. Many fights simply favors carnage a lot more than it does annihilation, because of certain mechanics, keeping up annihilate and juyo stacks can become a chore.

 

Lastly, I want to comment on your post about your nm DG fight. Carnage opens up really strong in that fight in phase 1 as you stated. As you get further into phase 2 and phase 3, the drop in number is inevitable, as melee we will get downtime on the boss. I can't speak for annihilation, but for that particular fight, with carnage is just how your raid decide to place the boss, while you use your ranged abilities to minimize wasted global cooldown time. Is deadly saber throw a bad pve skill, yes, but sometimes when your far away, it's most certainly better than nothing, when your running, you can dual saber throw, force scream and vicious throw, with force camouflage, you should be able to keep up in no time. While I don't know what your gear is, I'll say from the good marauders I know on the server, and the numbers I've posted personally, it's 2.6k + on carnage UW for that fight with one doom. I've wiped on phase 3 with 2850 - 2.9 without any dooms and good RNG in the past. The problem with marauder for that fight mostly is downtime, for Carnage spec, is the fact that when your closing in on the boss, you are unable to capitalize on gores as well as you should.

 

Edit: Note that I'm only a somewhat experienced journeyman on annihilation, I defer to oofalong to answer those. I could however, answer carnage related questions.

Edited August 23, 2013 by AscendentReality

[Maelael]

In Carnage I had 94 SA procs and in Annihilation I had 123 so the double SA definitely favors Annihilation.

 

Okay this is weird. In Rage and Carnage in PvP, the thing procs every 20-21/22 seconds - 9/10 times. In Anni or Carnage in PvE, the thing procs every 20-21/22 seconds - 9/10 times consistently. The 1/10 times is usually from being dead, or some other weird RNG issue (no longer than 30 seconds though). I play all three specs at about the same skill level.

 

Something really weird went on with your phases I think, are you willing to take the SA off and test again? That variance I imagine would account for the damage difference - if not greater.

 

The fact that you had almost a 6% uptick in dps with a 3.25% increase in SA procs may not actually look good for anni, I'd expect a bigger DPS increase out of that much power - but I'm not a theorycrafting expert with that so I could be wrong.

[oofalong]

In Carnage I had 94 SA procs and in Annihilation I had 123 so the double SA definitely favors Annihilation.

 

Annihilation should have the highest uptime for the SA relics. This stems from proc chances coming from hits as well as heals, and this spec has a high Hit/Second and Heal/Second. I believe you should experience ~45% uptime for each relic and ~70% for at least one Power Surge buff.

[DraydeRhionnan]

I wanted to say that I appreciate all the input. The depth of discussion and insight of many has been helpful.

 

Having said that, I have a couple points I want to look at:

 

1. It's been mentioned several times that Combat/Carnage will lower over time, while Watchman/Annihilation will steadily rise. However, the OP's question for CC was one concerning the RNG factor of CC procs and abilities. While I agree that this is an issue, if the Devs came back with a solution to this RNG factor, and made it something more predictable/reliable, would that not even out CC's damage over time - and even it out on the higher end? Would this not cement CC above WA in sustained damage over time?

 

2. I appreciate the testing that has been done. Is there more to be done, is there still disagreement, or is there any consensus on where WA is at in relation to CC, and if something needs to be addressed here? If so, what/how?

[AscendentReality]

I wanted to say that I appreciate all the input. The depth of discussion and insight of many has been helpful.

 

Having said that, I have a couple points I want to look at:

 

1. It's been mentioned several times that Combat/Carnage will lower over time, while Watchman/Annihilation will steadily rise. However, the OP's question for CC was one concerning the RNG factor of CC procs and abilities. While I agree that this is an issue, if the Devs came back with a solution to this RNG factor, and made it something more predictable/reliable, would that not even out CC's damage over time - and even it out on the higher end? Would this not cement CC above WA in sustained damage over time?

 

2. I appreciate the testing that has been done. Is there more to be done, is there still disagreement, or is there any consensus on where WA is at in relation to CC, and if something needs to be addressed here? If so, what/how?

I'm not too clear on what your asking on 1. Even though carnage/combat drops over time, it's not a full fledge plummet. It steadies out in average dps over time. It's like a spikey graph, similar to what you see for heart rates on television, up and down up and down. in the end, the average dps evens out. Annihilation I believe will also reach their max damage over time, as for how long exactly it takes, you'll have to check with oofalong.

If i'm understanding properly, then yes. If they somehow made the RNG more predictable for carnage/combat, with no other adjustments, you can expect the dps number overall to skyrocket through the roof. The dropoff will end a lot quicker, and the overall damage will be quite a bit higher.

 

Forgive me if I'm understanding this wrong. I think there is this myth that carnage/combat will just continuously dip in damage, and drop below other specs, or adv classes, I think that false. It's about who is behind that marauder or sentinel to maintain that dps over time. Sniper is in a way similar, a good test to see how good your sniper is in a tryout is to see how much their damage dips after 20 seconds.

Edited August 23, 2013 by AscendentReality

[Emperor-Norton]

I have to say that I disagree on nearly all points. First off, in regards to your personal DPS, your observations are sort of irrelevant due to the fact that you possess greater proficiency with one spec or the other; for example, I will freely admit that I consider myself to be better at Annihilation than Carnage, yet until recently the differential in DPS has been ~50-100 DPS in favor of Carnage. This is in spite of me playing Annihilation very well and making many mistakes in Carnage which based on that one could argue that Carnage is more forgiving than Annihilation and therefore is the easier spec but I do not believe either to be "easier" in general. Carnage requires split-second reactions (in terms of using Gore windows) whereas Annihilation requires long-term planning (in terms of planning movments, Annihilates, and tracking extremely short duration DoTs). While some may find one easier than the other, that does not make it true for all. For example, I was trying to teach a friend who always only plays Carnage to play Annihilation and they got so frustrated at having lost Annihilator 3 times in row that he rage-logged.

 

Based solely on Oofalong's spreadsheet (which does not include companion boost to accuracy) my theoretical maximum DPS is 2870, which is something I have never replicated. But I would wager a hell of a lot that my theoretical Carnage DPS is not that high.

Yet I would say the same for myself, I played Watchman from release to April 2012, came back in October and only switched to Combat a month and a half ago (I still practice Watchman though, hence the Combat/Watchman in my sig and use it in fights where maximum DPS isn't necessary). Although I would say I am beginning to get rather proficient with Combat, but not nearly as proficient with Watchman.

 

Also, I was not placing my own evidence in the thread as a "This is the end-all-be-all evidence for this", I was doing it for the same reason as you did later on, people had a theory and I tested it and said what my results were. That doesn't mean I was right, I was just reporting what I did and saw.

Let me make sure I understand you correctly, you are saying the the minimum expected DPS for Carnage is higher than the maximum for Annihilation - can you show evidence of this?

Let me clarify what I meant, in an ideal parse there is a dropping where the sustained DPS of Carnage accounts for its high opener, while Annihilation rises because its sustained DPS accounts for its low opener. The point I was making is that the sustained DPS of Annihilation either isn't as high as or isn't high enough to put itself over Carnage, over time (in other words, the lowest Carnage would go is higher than the highest Annihilation would go). Even if you crop the first 30 seconds from Noo'dles 3205 parse (I only used the first 5 minutes, because after that they used Bloodthirst again) to get this 3123 parse, you will notice that there is no fall in their damage and it seems rather consistent. So I don't really think there is much behind the idea that Carnage really falls over time, except from user fatigue and error. Anyway, my point is that the Sustained DPS of Carnage, when played right, is better than that of Annihilation.

 

On a related note, a friend of mine in game made spreadsheets for most DPS specs in the game. In it he tested both Watchman and Combat and concluded that over a fight (this was a simulated boss fight, so executes, armor debuff, etc), both specs played optimally, Combat in full BiS Kell Dragon would get just shy of 3600 DPS, while Watchman would get just shy of 3400. That was without using Cauterize in the Combat rotation, which he was starting to work on before he went on Vacation.

 

I'm not too clear on what your asking on 1. Even though carnage/combat drops over time, it's not a full fledge plummet. It steadies out in average dps over time. It's like a spikey graph, similar to what you see for heart rates on television, up and down up and down. in the end, the average dps evens out. Annihilation I believe will also reach their max damage over time, as for how long exactly it takes, you'll have to check with oofalong.

If i'm understanding properly, then yes. If they somehow made the RNG more predictable for carnage/combat, with no other adjustments, you can expect the dps number overall to skyrocket through the roof. The dropoff will end a lot quicker, and the overall damage will be quite a bit higher.

 

Forgive me if I'm understanding this wrong. I think there is this myth that carnage/combat will just continuously dip in damage, and drop below other specs, or adv classes, I think that false. It's about who is behind that marauder or sentinel to maintain that dps over time. Sniper is in a way similar, a good test to see how good your sniper is in a tryout is to see how much their damage dips after 20 seconds.

Also, this post. Anyone decent player can do a specs opener successfully. The good ones are the people who can keep the DPS rolling minutes into a fight.

[oofalong]

...

On a related note, a friend of mine in game made spreadsheets for most DPS specs in the game. In it he tested both Watchman and Combat and concluded that over a fight (this was a simulated boss fight, so executes, armor debuff, etc), both specs played optimally, Combat in full BiS Kell Dragon would get just shy of 3600 DPS, while Watchman would get just shy of 3400. That was without using Cauterize in the Combat rotation, which he was starting to work on before he went on Vacation.

...

 

I know all about Ino's sheets; ask him. I personally feel his approach is flawed as he is trying to maximize around Damage per Resource rather Damage per Second. Sith Warriors/Jedi Knights are the only class in the game that does not adversely suffer from resource depletion. In fact, I would contend our aim is to have the least amount of resource possible.

 

This approach has led him to conclude that Annihilate/Merciless Slash is best used to proc the CD on Rupture/Cauterize; this does not jive with what I believe and observe from the best Annihilation/Watchman parses, where the ability is used maximally. Furthermore, I believe there are errors in his sheet. For instance, he does not have OH damage for Assault/Strike.

 

To be clear, I respect that Ino has taken the initiative to create detailed models for each spec of each advanced class. To my knowledge, he is the only one doing this.

 

Thus, thank you for citing your evidence, but I am I afraid I must discount it.

[Emperor-Norton]

I know all about Ino's sheets; ask him. I personally feel his approach is flawed as he is trying to maximize around Damage per Resource rather Damage per Second. Sith Warriors/Jedi Knights are the only class in the game that does not adversely suffer from resource depletion. In fact, I would contend our aim is to have the least amount of resource possible.

 

This approach has led him to conclude that Annihilate/Merciless Slash is best used to proc the CD on Rupture/Cauterize; this does not jive with what I believe and observe from the best Annihilation/Watchman parses, where the ability is used maximally. Furthermore, I believe there are errors in his sheet. For instance, he does not have OH damage for Assault/Strike.

 

To be clear, I respect that Ino has taken the initiative to create detailed models for each spec of each advanced class. To my knowledge, he is the only one doing this.

 

Thus, thank you for citing your evidence, but I am I afraid I must discount it.

Well unfortunately he is on vacation for over a month so I can't ask him. I also have talked about KBN, Kitru, and yourself (among others) with him, seems like an interesting community among Theory Crafters.

 

Personally I think there is merit to the idea of going for maximum DPS that requires the least use of Assault. From personal discussions with Ino, his point of view is that Annihilation hits peak DPS when Annihilate is used for the purpose of resetting the CD on Rupture, but optimally the rotation fuctions as a cycle of Annihilate > Rupture > Filler > Filler > Annihilate > Rupture and you get the idea. Optimum DPS is achieved when Annihilate and Rupture are used on CD delaying Annihilate by a GCD to get stuck in the cycle may be worth it. I do know I say a nice personal increase in DPS when I started playing the spec that way, but that is me. Just because that is what top parsers do, doesn't mean it is the optimum way.

 

Looking at a parse, there doesn't seem to be any offhand hits with Strike/Assault, just 4 main hand ones (that individually do low damage). So Ino just combined all of those hits into one it looks like. Although I would like to hear about any other errors you see with his Spreadsheets.

Edited August 23, 2013 by Emperor-Norton

[Gudarzz]

I appreciate the in-depth discussion about anni vs carnage dps. At the very least, I think people can agree that there is a discrepancy with what the players are observing and what the developers had intended with the sustainability of anni dps. That being said, I would like to encourage people to come up with a question that addresses this issue. Kennethdale already got it started:

 

According to the response given to the Jedi Sentinel questions, the development team had intended for Annihilation/Watchman to be the top-performing sustained DPS spec however this does not match up with the observed DPS results from the top Marauder/Sentinels who perform significantly better and produce significantly higher DPS in Carnage/Combat than in Annihilation/Watchman. Would the development team say that Annihilation/Watchman is currently performing as intended and if so why is Carnage/Combat out-performing it in all instances?

 

In order to make this a compelling case we have to consider a few things:

 

1. Assuming the changes suggested by KBN are made, will this discrepancy between anni and carnage be resolved?

2. What other abilities (stronger bleeds, stronger annihilate, changes to the rupture reproc, etc) could be changed in addition to KBN's suggestions that will close this dps gap?

 

Let's focus our efforts on annihilation now. I believe a consensus has been reached regarding the carnage question (I will update this and post on the first page).

[oofalong]

...Just because that is what top parsers do, doesn't mean it is the optimum way.

 

I believe it means precisely this. In effect, the optimal way has been crowd-sourced by the most talented players in the game. In this case it appears to match my analysis.

 

Looking at a parse, there doesn't seem to be any offhand hits with Strike/Assault, just 4 main hand ones (that individually do low damage). So Ino just combined all of those hits into one it looks like. Although I would like to hear about any other errors you see with his Spreadsheets.

 

It is actually 3 MH hits and 1 OH hit. I will PM you other observations as it is off-topic for this thread.

[AscendentReality]

I think all annihilation needs is having longer uptime on their stacks, or some way to gain double stacks at the beginning. Not too much need to be done about annihilation IMO beside that obvious problem which would cause say, annihilation marauder dps to absolutely plummet in a fight such as Titan 6.

 

If that's not enough, maybe a little base damage to deadly saber or rupture.

 

As for PvP, while I'm no expert in pvp by any means, I believe if there is a way to gain multiple stacks quicker, they can be used in arenas affectly to burn down tanks or other things that has heavy defenses. Extra procs on rupture can also be used to dot multiple targets instead of clipping dots, etc.

[Lafay]

I appreciate the in-depth discussion about anni vs carnage dps. At the very least, I think people can agree that there is a discrepancy with what the players are observing and what the developers had intended with the sustainability of anni dps. That being said, I would like to encourage people to come up with a question that addresses this issue. Kennethdale already got it started:

 

 

 

In order to make this a compelling case we have to consider a few things:

 

1. Assuming the changes suggested by KBN are made, will this discrepancy between anni and carnage be resolved?

2. What other abilities (stronger bleeds, stronger annihilate, changes to the rupture reproc, etc) could be changed in addition to KBN's suggestions that will close this dps gap?

 

Let's focus our efforts on annihilation now. I believe a consensus has been reached regarding the carnage question (I will update this and post on the first page).

 

I would like to see annihilate get a crit buff based on anni stacks, that will keep the spirit of the spec in tact. Also dot protection would be nice but really if we had another way to cut the healers output, it would go a long way to improving its pvp potential. ie, siphoning off heals from agonizing sabers or making the debuff apply to outgoing heals. extending the time limit on anni stacks so they are harder to loose would be great too.

[MarkXXIV]

I refuse to play rage or sniper. I quit brb unsubbing. Might be back if they fix this mess.

[paowee]

I read over the sample questions, i think these are better questions (by a huge margin) compared to the ones the sorcerer's posted. proper phrasing of questions is the key to getting detailed and satisfying answers from the devs.

 

You guys still have at least a month! Chill! (looking at the impeachment threads outside).. I Wish i had a month instead of a WEEK to come up with our Sniper questions...

 

Not sure if you guys took a glance at the sniper discussion question but i'll post this here maybe you guys can pick up and improve a thing or two on how to go about this BW class rep experiment

 

Community discussion, submission of questions and voting

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AtS6aucNXnGndFNtdDN5UTJGLW9ZNGcydEFOUTR2aFE#gid=0

 

Actual questions and answers (note the phrasing, format, choice of words, etc etc)

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=669517

 

Sorc questions...

 

#1 So with all this in mind, do you think that this very obvious disparity between sorcerers/sages and every other class’ defensive cooldowns are fair? Or for that matter… is it intended? If it isn’t, is there any plan to give us some sort of damage mitigation? Some ability that, given the proper amount of team assistance, can help us withstand an assault from multiple players? Obviously we don’t want to take on an entire team/raid boss but something to even the playing field. Because currently we have the lightest armor… and it shows.

----------- for future class rep's.. it might be a good idea to not compare your class side-by-side with another class, let alone 2 and use that as the base for your question...

 

#2 is it intended for our class to be so easy to shut down?

---------- a yes or no question... in the end they got an answer that tells them that their class is supposed to heal itself even while DPS spec'd and this counts towards their "survivability cooldowns". #2 question is almost like an offshoot of their question #1. Wasted question imo.

 

Open-ended questions that they can elaborate on, that don't single out to one answer is a good way to get as much from the devs as you can in this class rep program. the sentinel questions did a good job at this.

#2 What are the design goals for Focus/Rage in PvE? Is the spec currently meeting those goals? If low single-target DPS is indeed the balancing factor for this spec, how is this justified with the current PvE design focus on single-target bosses?

 

EDIT: oh looks like KBN picked it up as well

I think these are good questions. The overall strong PvP focus to all of them is quite welcome after my mostly PvE-justified questions. My only comment is that the phrasing should probably be made more compact. The Sorc and Vanguard questions this month were multiple paragraphs with stories, anecdotes, and more. I think that distracts from the main point of the question. Keep it simple and concise. Focus on the exact issue, give a bit of justification or exemplification, maybe make a suggestion, and ask (perhaps multiple) questions around that issue.

Edited August 24, 2013 by paowee

[Costello]

Just read over on the Sorc answers that Marauder is considered an Easy Class cause we have no ability to heal or off tank. Maybe this needs to be address that we have a lack of utility in a fight and therefore have fewer options than other classes.

 

Even my DPS speced BH and Trooper have the option to heal themselves and companions in a lull in the fighting which is a great option as you wait for the next spawn or the players to run back in. But we can't do anything, equally my Sorc can throw up barriers and heal even though his a dps spec or as healing spec still have some nice dots and AOE damage.

 

We can only DPS and not vastly better than people with heals or barriers and considered by the devs to be a basic class than anyone can master with little choice in a fight and even less to offer outside of direct dps. If the devs have realised this then something needs to be done to give marauders more options utility and equal to the other classes in tactical options giving the same rewards for knowing your class.

[AscendentReality]

Marauder, easy? Lol, please get this sorc to play one. I want to see what excuses he comes up with.

[paowee]

I just read the Vanguard questions.. wow.. >_< Sad to say but.. G.I.G.O. for those guys