First Question Rough Draft

[Laforet]

Apologies for the delay in me getting this out, I was away form a computer this weekend and didn't want to write this from my cellphone :-D While I try below to provide a lot of detail about the PvE aspect, I think the PvP angle is more compelling.

 

Right now Sage/Sorcs are limited when it comes to survivability in raids. We have to suffer numerous one hit mechanics (Kephess jump, Olok's wealthy buyer wrist burst, etc.) due to our abysmal damage mitigation. Quite generally, we take way more damage than any other class in the game, usually in total, but especially when comparing from a per hit basis. We have been given as compensation some self-heals, but they lack the advantages of true defensive-cooldowns - of which we only have one, Force Barrier (more on that in a moment). While one hit mechanics are usually unavoidable, you can typically only use them to avoid it once, anyway - other classes have the ability to cycle some of theirs, or use other avoidance tactics with some skill (sniper/slinger roll).

 

DPS Sage/Sorcs are left with a choice in this game - we either need to keep doing damage, hoping the healers get to us in time, or heal ourselves up. Unfortunately, with the amount of damage we take, the wiser choice is usually the latter - popping force mend when it is up, if not, using regular heals. By interrupting our damage/rotation we are lowering our total contribution to the raid - and when we are in a DPS spec, like any other DPS, then we do not want to be spending time healing ourselves. Likewise with healers, especially with our force regen mechanic of sacrificing our own life, sage/sorc healers often spend an unproportionate amount of time healing themselves, rather than healing the rest of the raid.

 

During mechanics that are predictable and do raid wide damage (Titan 6 soft enrage, Thrasher pounding, Dash'round pound and sandstorm damage, Operations chief probes, Styrak's second kell dragon, DG lightning, Kephess soft enrage) we are usually left with the least amount of health afterwards. During these intense periods, we are again left healing ourselves instead of damaging the boss so we can stay alive. The most negative part about this is nightmare raids have been brought to a level where enrage timers - putting out an appropriate amount of DPS - is most critical to success. A defensive cooldown would allow us the same advantages as all the other DPS classes in allowing us to continue doing our jobs, instead of worrying about our health, and would make us a higher contributing member (and closer to even) during a raid.

 

Currently, I would say that Sages/Sorcs do not have a single defensive cooldown. A defensive cooldown does not effect your GCD and allows you to continue doing your job. Force mend and force armor are heals. Using our force armor is actually extra negative since it prevents us from being shielded from a healer (who probably has a much better force armor due to spec). Then there is force barrier - while it does prevent damage and allows us to bypass some mechanics - it also totally makes us useless for the period of time we leave it up. A true defensive cooldown allows the user to continue their job - our almost defensive cooldown essentially removes us from the raid for a period of time.

 

A true defensive cooldown would help mitigate some of the damage we take, as the top damage takers in the game; it would allow us to continue doing our job during periods of intensity, instead of forcing us into survival mode and stressing the healers more than any other; and it would help bring parity with other DPS classes in terms of overall survivability.

 

 

Thx for the excellent read, and i really thought we were fine in PvE, oh dear.

 

IMO they should adress our trash survivability somehow. Snarky devs and people playing other classes will prolly say that "being a paper tank is part of the class design", and its true.

 

The problem is that we dont get rewarded by being extremely weak defensevely. Our PvE specs do adequade damage, but nothing special that makes up for all the damage we take. Our PvE healing is the only healing spec in the game that actually has to spend globals in force regen (you dont heal) plus taking damage in the process, stressing out the other raid healers.

 

PvP light has some kickass burst, so does sniper, so does LOLYOLOSMASHER, while being more reliable than us.

 

PvP madness is a joke.

 

PvP corruption is kind of fine, but largely overshadowed by operative healers, mainly because in the end we have trash survivability and nothing to "compensate".

 

Why would you bring a trash survivability class if he has nothing to compensate it? Utility? Every class in the game has utility man while being more reliable on other fields. LOLYOLOSMASH does have taunts and a 45 sec AoE instant mez, operatives have super duper roll, stealth (utility in itself, hello sapcap) and infiltrate.

 

If you put stuff in a broader perspective, TAUNTS are of much greater utility in PvP than friendly pull, for instance. Not that i think friendly grips are meaningless, but every class has utility so theres no reason to keep us down just because we have a skill that is good in huttball.

 

A sniper has to stand still and turret people to do damage. This is bad, but he gets the "boon" of being unchargeable while doing that. That is called risk vs. reward and this is what makes games good. Make decisions that affect tactics / gameplay.

 

We have trash survivability, im still waiting on some boon so to speak. lol.

 

They could at least make a mechanic which makes us stronger when we take heavy amounts of damage. Some kind of power buff relative to damage absorv (a la incanters ward). So if you bring a sage to a raid, you know that hes going to take damage, you know its going to stress the healers, but you that MOFO will break the boss if he is competent and stays alive. There you go, risk / reward, is that so hard to see?

Edited August 12, 2013 by Laforet

[Psirebral]

First post has been rewritten!

 

Taking all of the suggestions into account I tried to condense the question a little bit more and get to the point faster. The general idea of this rewrite was to compare abilities, the way ours works and the ways they can be stopped or how they negatively impact us. Mentioned a few other classes abilities and then went right to the question with a little bit more info.

 

I will be using parts of Nibbons write up as well. I'll shorten it a bit but he makes valid points for the PvE side and I want it to be treated just as PvP would. This will likely be the version I use for our question. The next two questions will be written tomorrow and Wednesday.

 

Note: I also tried to stay away from the "suggestion" side of our discussions because in the end it is up to them how they remedy it, we just need to know what their take is on it.

Edited August 13, 2013 by Psirebral

[Macetheace]

I'll add my bit here.

 

my biggest concern in the TK/lightning spec pvp and pvE is mobility issues, it really is terrible and too easy to shut down. I don't want the class mechanic of having activation abilities to be removed, as this distinguishes it from the balance/madness spec and other range class specs, The option then becomes to give it a means of avoiding shut down so easily. First of all, I question activation pushback on taking damage..it seems an outdated model crippler to a range lass, that made sense in the days castinga bilities did much higher damage than melee ones, but not now in a modern game where many of the hardest hitting abilities are instant abilities on melee specs. With no egress and often needing to set up timed casts/channels to proc CLs/Tk waves one of two things needs to be given.

 

1. either an additional, bigger knockback than force wave/dis or 2, the occasional ability to use an activation ability on the move. the idea is you still have to activate, it's not instant, but you can do it on the move.

 

I would propose a charge system. like LS/Disturbance casts build up charges of force will up to a max of 5...you can consume force wills to either give varying degrees of a knockback to any of turbulence/TB, tk wave/CL or tk throw/LS (that increase per charge e.g. 2m/1.5m/1m, per charge for Turb/Tk wave/Tk throw or instead you can consume the charge to allow you x secs per charge of moving while using activation abilities. the knockback ability has a cooldown as does the move and activate ability, but their cooldowns a separate, building charges has no cooldowns and occurs whenever you cast disturbance/LS.. which can give a desired level of control on when you get a peeling boost, and gives you an interesting choice on whether to go for a knockback or a move while casting.

 

b) I would also like an enhanced escape mechanic for the sorc/sage - i would suggest force jump, that acts like a kind of mage blink, but instead of vanishing you do a stylistic acrobatic front flip or back flip depending on your movement direction.

 

 

My other concern with this class is that it needed something a bit more exciting in terms of offensive abilities and cool mobility to help it look more jedi/sith ish ... not really having much use for the lightsaber is annoying, and since it was a range class, having a floating saber ability would work perfectly - essentially an extra dot or mini comp that can use your lightsaber abilities. The idea is that the sorc/sage while casting at range will have his lightsaber for a short duration (with cooldown) melee opponents while he continues casting his abilities from range.. he can use the force to manipualte the lightsaber to do some of the melee moves like double strike, which would allow some of the assassin/shadow melee abilities to be consualr/inquistor wide instead of just being restricted to assassin/shadow..as now sorc sages will be able to use them through the floating lightsaber.

 

skills could extend duration of the floating saber for both lightning/tk and balance/madness builds

Edited August 13, 2013 by Macetheace

[MidichIorian]

I'm not onboard with a question regarding defensive abilties because:

 

A. I don't see the need for it in PvE. If anything I'd say that sorcs/sages are some of the best equipped classes for PvE and should in many cases be able to go un-healed by the real healer in operations. I have, on numerous occassions and after noticing that the healer for one or another reason is struggling, told him that he can completely ignore me and that I will look after myself. To this day I've never wiped before the tanks (give or take runs with bad tanks where cloud mind havent been able to save me from getting aggro). I will throw in a disclaimer regarding TfB and S&V NiM though, on behalf of never having played those, but if only 1,4 % of all PvP matches are rateds I'd say that the NiM runs in these operations are even less in comparison to all operation runs. We're talking about a change that would only benefit a very small portion of the community, not to mention that many of them have already replaced their sorcs with snipers because of the output.

 

B. While convenient for PvP it would also go against my opinion on what the class and archetype should be like. As I see it there's no point in giving us a CD with a long cooldown, it would only be as sporadically used as barrier (save it, not save it. How do you decide in PvP when you might have enemies on you at all times and you're in the zerg?) With a CD on 1 minute or less and combined with bubble and barrier we'd all of a sudden become tanks (I've already managed to tank the Cad HM bonus boss long enough for the rest of my party to spawn and run back to continue the fight after they all managed to die, just as an example.)

 

Also, I don't see why spec specific issues/questions, such as madness force management, should be ruled out. Imagine what would happen to operative healers if all operative issues would apply to them too, it would mean that a fix to their dps trees would have to benefit the heal tree too and ultimately make them even more God mode.

 

Hence, i still believe that crowd control is something that needs to be given priority. As far as I'm concerned they shouldnt hesitate with giving us the 30 m stun back on top of making instant WW a baseline ability. The WW channel reduction spec in the madness/balance tree could be replaced with a spec for force management, ideally related to dots.

Edited August 13, 2013 by MidichIorian

[judgeender]

Overall the rewritten question looks good. From a PvE perspective, I think the following paragraph from Nibbon's post captures the importance of what we need from a defensive cooldown which we are currently lacking. I would add something along these lines to the question/explanation:

 

"During mechanics that are predictable and do raid wide damage (Titan 6 soft enrage, Thrasher pounding, Dash'round pound and sandstorm damage, Operations chief probes, Styrak's second kell dragon, DG lightning, Kephess soft enrage) we are usually left with the least amount of health afterwards. During these intense periods, we are again left healing ourselves instead of damaging the boss so we can stay alive. The most negative part about this is nightmare raids have been brought to a level where enrage timers - putting out an appropriate amount of DPS - is most critical to success. A defensive cooldown would allow us the same advantages as all the other DPS classes in allowing us to continue doing our jobs, instead of worrying about our health, and would make us a higher contributing member (and closer to even) during a raid."

 

Magister (sage)//Retsigam (sorc). The Shadowlands.

[MidichIorian]

Overall the rewritten question looks good. From a PvE perspective, I think the following paragraph from Nibbon's post captures the importance of what we need from a defensive cooldown which we are currently lacking. I would add something along these lines to the question/explanation:

 

"During mechanics that are predictable and do raid wide damage (Titan 6 soft enrage, Thrasher pounding, Dash'round pound and sandstorm damage, Operations chief probes, Styrak's second kell dragon, DG lightning, Kephess soft enrage) we are usually left with the least amount of health afterwards. During these intense periods, we are again left healing ourselves instead of damaging the boss so we can stay alive. The most negative part about this is nightmare raids have been brought to a level where enrage timers - putting out an appropriate amount of DPS - is most critical to success. A defensive cooldown would allow us the same advantages as all the other DPS classes in allowing us to continue doing our jobs, instead of worrying about our health, and would make us a higher contributing member (and closer to even) during a raid."

 

Magister (sage)//Retsigam (sorc). The Shadowlands.

I'm very sceptical here and it's the first I've heard of this being the reason to why sorcs/sages can be a liability on NiM. It sounds highly suspicous that sorcs would take significally more damage than other classes on this content specifically when it doesnt apply to other operative content. However, if it really is the case I'd like to know by how much and if bubble is ignored? I mean, with bubble up up you should be able to take an extra 6K or more. Do all other classes have abilties that can mitigate those 6K on an equally short CD? But again, if it indeed turns out to be true I'd say that it's more of a boss battle design flaw and something they should fix by either tweaking boss output to a flat baseline or changing its' mitigation.

[wwkingms]

i posted this in the other thread but ill repeat it here cause i love my ideas

 

how bout tying a resource leech to creeping terror?

 

over its duration, a long with its current affects... creeping terror can leech and transfer the 20% of the targets resource, restoring 20% force to the sorc,

 

this brings the first resource draining aspect to this game, just in time for arenas

 

and it gives sorcs a unique role to play in warzones and arenas in the future...

 

currently we have no armor debuff, no heal debuff.. so this could be our thing

 

please id like to hear everyones and possibly psi/nibbons thoughts on this to solving madness force issues as well as finally giving sorcs a usefulness

Edited August 13, 2013 by wwkingms

[Kindran]

I'm not onboard with a question regarding defensive abilties because:

 

A. I don't see the need for it in PvE. If anything I'd say that sorcs/sages are some of the best equipped classes for PvE and should in many cases be able to go un-healed by the real healer in operations. I have, on numerous occassions and after noticing that the healer for one or another reason is struggling, told him that he can completely ignore me and that I will look after myself. .

 

Then you probably don't raid 16man NiM cause we do get 1 shot by boss abilities that we can't avoid.

 

I'm very sceptical here and it's the first I've heard of this being the reason to why sorcs/sages can be a liability on NiM. It sounds highly suspicous that sorcs would take significally more damage than other classes on this content specifically when it doesnt apply to other operative content. However, if it really is the case I'd like to know by how much and if bubble is ignored? I mean, with bubble up up you should be able to take an extra 6K or more. Do all other classes have abilties that can mitigate those 6K on an equally short CD? But again, if it indeed turns out to be true I'd say that it's more of a boss battle design flaw and something they should fix by either tweaking boss output to a flat baseline or changing its' mitigation.

 

Bubble is not ignored and it is placed on everyone in our raid group. Yes we take the most damage by about 15-20% from the few times i looked at damage taken

Edited August 13, 2013 by Kindran

[Psirebral]

I'm not onboard with a question regarding defensive abilties because:

 

Then it comes down to and either/or situation. I can see your point in that we don't need to be tanks, however, we need something. If no defensive, then we need a baseline instant whirlwind and a baseline snare immunity when sprinting. I'm actually more for the whole "running away" sort of class and it is why I love madness but we just simply can't do that with all the snares present. I also think it is beyond BWs reach to do something that they think would be TOO drastic and the easier route would be a defensive.

Edited August 13, 2013 by Psirebral

[Kindran]

Then it comes down to and either/or situation. I can see your point in that we don't need to be tanks, however, we need something. If no defensive, then we need a baseline instant whirlwind and a baseline snare immunity when sprinting. I'm actually more for the whole "running away" sort of class and it is why I love madness but we just simply can't do that with all the snares present. I also think it is beyond BWs reach to do something that they think would be TOO drastic and the easier route would be a defensive.

 

Just give us passive 15% or so damage reduction like our counterparts have in WoW. Shaman wears mail armor and a shield (lots of armor rating) / Shadow Priest have passive damage reduction (Shadow Form). I know many people don't want to talk about it, but I think its what we need. If no defensive then give us passive damage reduction.

 

Just a BTW, but any buff to Static Barrier would basically just do nothing. It would indirectly buff and nerf every class and I do not want any focus on Static Barrier at all for this reason.

Edited August 13, 2013 by Kindran

[Psirebral]

Just give us passive 15% or so damage reduction like our counterparts have in WoW. Shaman wears mail armor and a shield (lots of armor rating) / Shadow Priest have passive damage reduction (Shadow Form). I know many people don't want to talk about it, but I think its what we need. If no defensive then give us passive damage reduction.

 

Just a BTW, but any buff to Static Barrier would basically just do nothing. It would indirectly buff and nerf every class and I do not want any focus on Static Barrier at all for this reason.

 

They won't touch it so we're probably fine.

[FROIDBUSTER]

I'm very sceptical here and it's the first I've heard of this being the reason to why sorcs/sages can be a liability on NiM. It sounds highly suspicous that sorcs would take significally more damage than other classes on this content specifically when it doesnt apply to other operative content. However, if it really is the case I'd like to know by how much and if bubble is ignored? I mean, with bubble up up you should be able to take an extra 6K or more. Do all other classes have abilties that can mitigate those 6K on an equally short CD? But again, if it indeed turns out to be true I'd say that it's more of a boss battle design flaw and something they should fix by either tweaking boss output to a flat baseline or changing its' mitigation.

 

In all honesty its' just a flaw with "Light Armor". Insofar as the fact that Sage/Sorcs already don't have cooldowns to augment their own casts, on top of their lower armor rating.

 

Case in a point, A Sniper/Marauder/etc gets marked with something nasty, he'll pop his own shield/dmg reduction cooldown and get the healer buffs (armor buff, static barrier, etc.), on top of the fact they'll have medium armor.

 

A Sorc/Sage gets a really bad debuff... they get to force barrier 1 time every 3 minutes. Since most raids have a Sorc/Sage healer anyways there's no inherent extra bonus to Static Barrier since everyone will be getting that anyways.

 

When you consider that the Marauder/Merc damage reduction, or Sniper shield cooldowns are already mitigating an extra 5~k+ damage on top of their higher armor values, it often easily puts the Sorc/Sage into a 7~k damage disadvantage when it comes to mitigating an effect.

 

So while not truly detrimental to any single raid, since obviously Sorc/Sage healers and dps are still useful and put up good numbers, they are inherently gimped when it comes to mitigating damage. And when you factor in the fact that Shadow/Assassin tanks are in the same ****** situation because of their armor rating, you could probably chalk up most the blame onto Armor ratings being inherently imbalanced or skewed.

Edited August 13, 2013 by FROIDBUSTER

[darthjanus]

This question regarding defensive cooldowns should be framed within a larger emphasis on BioWare's design philosophy for the sorcerer/sage class. The premise of our argument is the fact that sorcerers/sages have the worst survivability of any other class in the game, largely due to light armor and lack of defensive abilities. But this fact should be compared against the amount of damage our class can produce. The classic MMO model equates low survivability with high damage output. Furthermore, low survivability and limited mobility, as in a turret-based class, should produce even higher damage. However, the current dps leaderboard on the forums places the sorcerer/sage, at best, in the middle of the pack. This ranking should be qualified though as being produced in the turret-based lightning/telekinetic tree, which would benefit from non-movement training dummy parses more than any other class in the game. Therefore, it seems BioWare has left the dps trees for the sorcerer/sage in an unhelpful middle ground.

 

So my question to BioWare would be: If the design intent for the sorcerer/sage class is to follow the traditional MMO archetype, then how can our damage output be maximized to warrant such low survivability and utility? However, if the sorcerer/sage class is intended to defy classic conventions, what specific opportunities can we expect to see to bolster our defensive capabilities?

[darthjanus]

Something that could also be mentioned as sub-points to our survivability would be two current talents, that if reconfigured slightly, could have a meaningful impact in PVP.

 

In the lightning tree, Lightning Spire increases the range of a few specific abilities to an additional five meters. If this was augmented to include all abilities, our positioning in the PVP environment would become crucial to staying within that additional five meter window, putting us slightly beyond the leaps of marauders and putting us in line with snipers. Allowing that small extra distance to begin our burst rotation, could be very beneficial to the turret-based lightning class.

 

In the madness tree. Parasitism and its related ability Devour, seem very underwhelming, but the idea of leeching life from your dots gives the spec a unique appeal. These talents could easily be boosted to add some real benefit to this kiting-based class. This would also be an easy fix to enhance survivability for this spec.

Edited August 13, 2013 by darthjanus
Spelling

[MusicRider]

In the lightning tree, Lightning Spire increases the range of a few specific abilities to an additional five meters. If this was augmented to include all abilities, our positioning in the PVP environment would become crucial to staying within that additional five meter window, putting us slightly beyond the leaps of marauders and putting us in line with snipers. Allowing that small extra distance to begin our burst rotation, could be very beneficial to the turret-based lightning class.

This is a valid point and it is something that has also bothered me, and specifically how come weaken/affliction is at 30m which is the setup for a turbu/blast at 35m. The only reason I have not mentioned it is because IMO it is a bit of a bullet point than a key feature bacause in practice you will have to follow the team targeting, unfortunately this means as a sage you will have to be most of the time in the range of enemy fire instead of staying in the periphery peeling targets as you please from a safe distance.

[MusicRider]

The first question draft has improved, but IMO is way too long. It should be condensed in max 12 lines and be clear and direct. The additional info can follow in a form of an appendix where the developers can read if they need to further understand why the sage/sorc community is asking this.

[Laforet]

The first question draft has improved, but IMO is way too long. It should be condensed in max 12 lines and be clear and direct. The additional info can follow in a form of an appendix where the developers can read if they need to further understand why the sage/sorc community is asking this.

 

I think the question is fine, it can be condensed but with care, because short questions will meet short and ******** awnsers from the devs.

 

Who doesnt remember James Ohlen saying after the 1.2 fiasco that they "merely raised the skillcap on the sorcerer class"?

 

Scumbag slap in our face, the result is that we are out of balance until today and Ohlen is gone. Some of these guys are so egocentric that they will dig their own graves instead of meeting the playerbase in the field of ideas.

Edited August 13, 2013 by Laforet

[judgeender]

I'm very sceptical here and it's the first I've heard of this being the reason to why sorcs/sages can be a liability on NiM. It sounds highly suspicous that sorcs would take significally more damage than other classes on this content specifically when it doesnt apply to other operative content. However, if it really is the case I'd like to know by how much and if bubble is ignored? I mean, with bubble up up you should be able to take an extra 6K or more. Do all other classes have abilties that can mitigate those 6K on an equally short CD? But again, if it indeed turns out to be true I'd say that it's more of a boss battle design flaw and something they should fix by either tweaking boss output to a flat baseline or changing its' mitigation.

 

First, the lack of defensive cooldowns was mentioned numerous times in the original thread as an issue in PvP and PvE.

Second, the difference in damage taken is significant (at least 15-20% different). Your prior post indicates that you haven't had problems or noticed. In SM and HM it really doesn't matter much, the damage taken in general is so low it just doesn't matter if one class takes a little more. In NIM it makes a huge difference. We are the only class that is at significant risk of being 1-shot (or very close to it) by many random mechanics. First time in NIM TFB on Kephess, I was able to survive his random jump with only a couple hundred health in full Underworld (with my own bubble). Our other sage (was on pub side for this run) who still had 2 pieces of 69 gear could not survive without a healer bubble (he barely lacked the health with his own bubble). Every other class would come away with a significant amount of health remaining. We have to assume there will be similar attacks in future OPs. Either they need to give us a defensive cooldown that allows us to continue doing our job, they need to rework armor or they need to rework randomly targetted abilities to hit all classes equally. The problem is that if they do either of the latter options, we are still the worst because other classes can still mitigate the damage whereas we would not be able to. The only real option is a cooldown.

 

Magister (sage)//Retsigam (Sorc). The Shadowlands.

Edited August 13, 2013 by judgeender

[Nibbon]

http://i.imgur.com/4IupL41.png

 

boom oneshot

 

I do actually think the question can be shortened a bit and made more concise.

 

Something to the effect of ...

 

The biggest problem the sorc faces is one of survivability. Currently the sorc takes the most damage by a sizable margin, one that is noticeable in raids and PvP (our guess is around 20%). While we have some tools that assist in keeping us alive, they are insufficient and inferior when compared to other classes:

-force speed: Hampered by the unruly number of snares in the game, only becomes slightly viable when specced into with snare breaks, even then can still be shut down immediately.

-bubble: exceptionally good, however, consumes a great amount of force to keep up and is on our GCD (often is broken in PvP before next GCD is ready anyway). While it is a great utility skill, it is not a traditional defensive CD.

-Barrier: a great addition, however, it keeps up from doing our job and the second it falls off we are targeted and killed just as fast. It only acts as a small delay, not a defensive cooldown.

-Heals: obviously they are weaker and every heal we cast is just another attack we are not making.

 

When compared to other classes, such a marauder or sniper, they both get cooldowns that allow them to mitigate a lot (or all) of the damage for a period of time. Another part of our problem is that most of our defensive abilities need to be specced into, but they are entirely scattered throughout the three trees - we can't get them all, but we need them all and then some.

 

So with all this in mind, do you think that this very obvious disparity between sorcerers/sages and every other class’ defensive cooldowns is fair? Or for that matter… is it intended? If it isn’t, is there any plan to give us some sort of damage mitigation? Some ability that, given the proper amount of team assistance, can help us withstand an assault from multiple players? Obviously we don’t want to take on an entire team/raid boss but something to even the playing field. Because currently we have the lightest armor… and it shows.

 

I think this leaves it a little more open ended - we are hinting towards anything to reduce the damage we take and defensive cooldowns. Also mentions the inability to spec into some of our survival tools throughout the trees, which would probably help (mostly PvP).

[MusicRider]

I think the question is fine, it can be condensed but with care, because short questions will meet short and ******** awnsers from the devs.

 

Who doesnt remember James Ohlen saying after the 1.2 fiasco that they "merely raised the skillcap on the sorcerer class"?

 

Scumbag slap in our face, the result is that we are out of balance until today and Ohlen is gone. Some of these guys are so egocentric that they will dig their own graves instead of meeting the playerbase in the field of ideas.

 

Obviously you haven't been paying attention to the other classes corresponding threads. You might want to check out the responses and questions on the snipers and sentinels subforum. Also it helps to state the question straight away and give the reasoning after, instead of asking something after a wall of text.

 

Lastly, the way the question is formulated

 

"do you think that this very obvious disparity between sorcerers/sages and every other class’ defensive cooldowns is fair? Or for that matter… is it intended? "

 

Is asking for an Ohlen response of the type "yes it is intended, sages have a high skill cap".

 

While if we assume the representatives and ppl contributing to this thread have some skill with the class they make it clear that there is an issue, whether it is pve where you can be 1shoted like no other class or in pvp where sages have the shortest TTK out of all again when focussed for a 2.5-3 min cd of barrier. So the question is "given that sages have shortest TTK or can be 1shotted, when and how are you planning to address this issue given that the existing def CDs are not helpful?"

 

But it is up to the representatives on what and how to ask in the end.

 

Personally, the question discussed in this thread together with the easiness that tk and possibly seer as mentioned by others can be shut down are the two key questions that need to be addressed to improve sages in the current global picture of pvp, pve and future arenas.

[MusicRider]

And just to be complete to my above post, although I don't think we should be giving solutions before we hear the defs responses, the solutions might be simple.

 

Afro pvp,

a. Egressed force speed by default to sages only

b.kb has a larger distance and auto applies some root or snare, sages only again

 

Being one shot in pve which can also help greatly help in pvp,

a. Bubble armor by default mitigates x% of a damage strike if that damage is 6k+, or as an alternative maybe when bubble breaks it gives x% damage reduction for t secs.

 

The skill points freed can be used to address other issues or further enhance these skills as needed, e.g. a tk sage might need an extra sec or two on its kb root given by a tree skill, a seer sage might need to have a skill in the place of egress that makes sacrifice off the gcd, etc.

 

Unless there are new skills coming for every class I doubt sages will be the exception of getting something new by themselves, you got to work with what is available; phase walk is not coming to sages even if it seems from the corresponding thread of the shadows that they don't want it, they got to be out of their mind.

 

And I forgot on the previous post of mine to add that the 3rd key question is where is their group utility, something that benefits sages both in pve as well as pvp.

[Vanarion]

I have to agree. As we don't doubt the survivability issues in PVE and PVP, we should just ask if they plan to address them and undergird our point of view with some of the arguments and comparisons to other classes that were brought up in this thread.

 

To proove our point is the important thing here I think.

 

If they take us seriously, they'll respond in a way that will show us their point of view and thoughts for the future.

[Macetheace]

I'm very sceptical here and it's the first I've heard of this being the reason to why sorcs/sages can be a liability on NiM. It sounds highly suspicous that sorcs would take significally more damage than other classes on this content specifically when it doesnt apply to other operative content. However, if it really is the case I'd like to know by how much and if bubble is ignored? I mean, with bubble up up you should be able to take an extra 6K or more. Do all other classes have abilties that can mitigate those 6K on an equally short CD? But again, if it indeed turns out to be true I'd say that it's more of a boss battle design flaw and something they should fix by either tweaking boss output to a flat baseline or changing its' mitigation.

 

Midichlorian, needing stop dps to slef heal, or force barrier or even fore armor ourselves is eating into our dps, meaning other classes with higher mitigation by default that lose less health, and have defensive cooldowns not linked to their GCD are able keep up their already higher dps. This is something you will notice if you parse alot or have tight enrage timers on nightmare mode where you need to squeeze out everything.

 

another thing that I don't like is pushback from damage, it is annoying in pvE and worse in pvp especailly for the lightning spec, unlike a sniper that gets 100% protection the alredy movement senstive TK/lightning sage/sorc often sufffers higher dps loss due to pushback on activation abilties from aoe damage. This really needs to go, I don't see the point of having it on a dps spec, so perhaps a skill in the TK/lightning tree can assist witht his or make only pushback on damage apply to healing abilities..

 

for pvp i do maintain help with peeling is very much needed for the TK/lightning sage that gets loceked down too easily the best suggestion Ic an come up with is to add a knockback and ability to use activation abilities while moving. Get a charge system up, disturbance/LS builds a charge of Force Will -- you can consume Force Wills to either give Turbulence/TB, TK wave/CL or Tk throw/light a knock back of a/b/c meters per charge or instead use the charges to grant x secs per charge of activating whiel moving, y cooldown This means you will every few secs have an additional peel available - the fact that you need to cast distrubance/LS to gain a charge ensures standing still and casting still remains the core of the spec, but you get some help with peeling.

[Macetheace]

And just to be complete to my above post, although I don't think we should be giving solutions before we hear the defs responses, the solutions might be simple.

 

Afro pvp,

a. Egressed force speed by default to sages only

b.kb has a larger distance and auto applies some root or snare, sages only again

I don't want to simple solutions, I want good , comprehensive solutions that are exciting. It is why I often hesitate to offer any solutions during a discussion and when I do, a lot of thought goes into making them thorough, comprehensive and also exicing.

Sadly as is often the case, only the question post is heard and no follow up given, which often tempts me to generally suggest a solution I feel might be appropriate to a problem I'm experiencing. I have no idea how dedicated or willing to address issues whichever dev is going to do th e work is, if a suggestion can give him an idea or excite him, then i'm glad it helped. Still you make a good point, and simple can work well too.

[Laforet]

Obviously you haven't been paying attention to the other classes corresponding threads. You might want to check out the responses and questions on the snipers and sentinels subforum.

 

Look at the way they develop snipers / sentinels.

 

Look at the way they (under)develop us.

 

I think every average sorc / sage is in the right for fearing that we wont be treated with the same attention / care without being overly paranoic.

 

Other than that i think your suggestions are fine. Also the shorter version Nibbon posted seem rather appropriate to me.