[Rep] Focus Tree Rebalance

[Aelaias]

Within the realm of competitive warzone gameplay, heals and shields counteract much of this damage. add to that fact incoming taunts.

 

I for one whole heartedly disagree with this, and would prefer to see less "in game numbing" and more damage potential placed into the player's hands.

 

My response would be to retain all damage potential, but instead reduce the 360 degree capability of smash and implement a frontal 180 damage cone.

 

Sweeping slash could instead be revamped to become the new 360 aoe.

 

As long as we are doing fantasy game design I would extend your idea of cone damage by let's say limiting full damage to the frontal 120 degrees, 66%-75% between 120 and 240 degrees and half in the rear 120 degrees if at all possible from the coding perspective. Sweeping slash should have been aoe from the beginning and making it so would boost focus' aoe dps despite the sweep nerf. Focus single target is unlikely to be buffed as long as it keeps its current braindead pvp burst.

[BARSAL]

So that doesn't just make it balanced vs underpowered? There are other classes that can hit harder than Force Sweep. Combat has plenty of on demand burst - arguably better than Focus. Is it harder to pull off? Sure. Is that Focus' problem? I'd argue no. Does any other class provide the aoe burst damage of Focus? No, and that's it's niche.

 

Fine if you really want that to be its "niche" then let's make all the talents that affect everything else like 30% armor pen and 15% surge only affect smash eh? Or take out the talent where you do 9% more damage after every smash? People act like focus spec is still a one trick pony which is stupid. Everything crits hard and has a decent chance to crit because of the talents in the tree, and guess what crit damage can't be shielded, it is only affected by armor BUT oh wait focus has 30% armor pen ALL THE TIME. Arguments about smash being shut down by taunts and guards and tank defenses, SO WHAT, all the other dps have to deal with the same stuff and their heavy hitters aren't all auto-crit, let alone aoe. If you want it to be a one trick pony fine, but the point is Andrew is trying to nerf the class without killing it, and keeping single target dps the same but nerfing aoe dps some is a reasonable nerf.

[FalmeseReb]

How about you all stop trying to nerf people and let the developers do their damn jobs without all this crap from the peanut gallery?

[ssfish]

Now if you are arguing for the sake of pve, guardian dps SHOULD be behind pure damage specs because it is also a tank class. Furthermore in fights with lots of AoE, focus is not behind at all because of its amazing burst AoE.

 

First, a DPS Guardian/Juggernaut is not a tank. They are a DPS class, just like a Carnage Marauder is a DPS class. Saying that we should be substandard because of a spec option that we are not using is a horrible idea, and if it were applied in this game, every single raid group would/should run 1 Marauder and 3 Snipers (or 2:8/3:7) (which is already the "ideal" makeup in current endgame, anyways.)

 

In this game, we have the option of being a tank or a damage dealer at any given time; not both.

 

Second: Focus is very minimally behind Vigilance in single-target currently, and in AoE/mechanically-adverse fights far surpasses what Vigilance can do.

 

*Hopefully the emphasis is apparent, but just in case it was missed, we are a tank or DPS, not a tank and DPS, and as such references to tanking have no place in a conversation about our role as a damage dealer.

Edited August 5, 2013 by ssfish

[Skroting]

How about you all stop trying to nerf people and let the developers do their damn jobs without all this crap from the peanut gallery?

 

"stop trying to ruin my pubstomping with this redicilous OP spec!"

[Jadescythe]

Just to give a number example to put the change into perspective.

 

If you assume a 13 minute warzone, an average of 8,000 damage per target per smash, a smash every 20 seconds (could be more or less depending on map), and an average of 2 targets per smash (far more singles, but some 3, 4, or 5 target hits balance it out) then you are looking at an overall damage decrease of 156,000 damage.

 

Math:

 

13x60 seconds= 780 seconds

780/20(smash every twenty seconds)= 39 smashes

39*8,000 (average damage)= 312,000 damage per target hit in a game (So we're saying 624,000 damage from smash during a warzone based on 2 target average).

312,000/2 (cutting damage to one target in half without stacks)=156,000 damage no longer being done.

 

I think the actual damage decrease will be higher than this, especially in rated formats where smash is basically going off non stop and coordinated CC/grenades are stacking the other team together. Probably 250-300k damage gone in a 13 minute match or 500-600k in a normal almost 30 minute match that you typically see these days.

 

I think this presents a significant nerf to the spec and would require something to make up for it elsewhere. Meaning you either need to buff the single target damage it deals even further (probably stupidly OP in groups of smashers) or find another way to buff single target damage/control.

[UncleOst]

As long as we are doing fantasy game design I would extend your idea of cone damage by let's say limiting full damage to the frontal 120 degrees, 66%-75% between 120 and 240 degrees and half in the rear 120 degrees if at all possible from the coding perspective. Sweeping slash should have been aoe from the beginning and making it so would boost focus' aoe dps despite the sweep nerf. Focus single target is unlikely to be buffed as long as it keeps its current braindead pvp burst.

 

 

Well said. Your idea actually consummates both mine and Andrew's suggestions. Not only would the "360 derp-factor" be removed, but the damage potential would still remain in the player's hands. This in essence would make it a more skill-based application.

 

I like it.

 

Finally, to all who've failed to realize, this is all based on a future premise, that would revolve around a total healing revamp. They could not, nor will not exist without the other.

[Dragonexadon]

Just to give a number example to put the change into perspective.

 

If you assume a 13 minute warzone, an average of 8,000 damage per target per smash, .

 

And considering bubbles, taunts, and other aspects of damage mitigation I doubt the average smash is 8k. I would love to see a tor-parse log of some top geared smashers to see what their average smash comes out per target.

Edited August 6, 2013 by Dragonexadon

[KarethRiker]

I play smash as my main spec in WZs and I would say 8K smashes across 5 are not the norm or anywhere close. Many many specs get an AOE damage reduction or force DR. Gunslingers in Hunker, Middle tree Sents, Tanks. Add on to that sorc shields and resilience for more mitigation.

 

It's also extremely easy to counter smash with knockbacks, mezzs, ranged roots and hard ccs. Against bad players this spec is demolishing, but against good players it is much inline. It's probably worth comparing to DFA and Orbital as other mass AOE damage.

 

Anyway not sure that it really needs a huge change. I'd support the giving singularity buffs to targets affected by leap and maybe singularity stacks -1 to non leaped targets. I do think if this is the case it would make sense to allow multiple targets to be affected by leaps since that would add some more complexity to game play.

[Skroting]

Just to throw it out there, who can compete with focus on a dps level, and can reliably top damage as often as focus?

I'm genuinely asking, because i find way too many defending a specc which is way OP in my opinion, and i really havent been playing rated for quite some time, but from all videos/scoreboard screenshots, streams etc. all i see is focus being at the top every single time.

How come it's not OP that one specc has overall highest damage output, among the best burst/kill-potential, offers decent utility and at the same time being the only class which actually offers decent AoE pressure.

I just don't understand how people can defend this specc saying it doesn't need some kind of adjustment/nerf, it's simply beyond me O.o

 

Edit: Probably somewhat important to note that i have 0 experience or input concerning PvE, and speak only from a PvP point of view. (Still, with how broken focus is in PvP, I believe something has to be done, even if it affects PvE to some degree)

Edited August 6, 2013 by Skroting

[Dragonexadon]

I just don't understand how people can defend this specc saying it doesn't need some kind of adjustment/nerf, it's simply beyond me O.o

)

 

Let me ask you this : What class SHOULD do the most AOE burst damage? To me a class designed to go into a group of people , right in their face, should output the best AOE damage. They have the highest risk in performing their damage.

[Skroting]

Let me ask you this : What class SHOULD do the most AOE burst damage? To me a class designed to go into a group of people , right in their face, should output the best AOE damage. They have the highest risk in performing their damage.

 

I don't think any class should have both AoE pressure and high burst. AoE should be sustained dps, not burst, burst should be single target. What i suggested earlier (in rough terms) were to rework cyclone slash into a secondary aoe abilty, so that you don't have the redicilous burst from smash, and making focus a AoE spec, not burst-aoe-utility-overalldamage spec.

[Dragonexadon]

I don't think any class should have both AoE pressure and high burst. AoE should be sustained dps, not burst, burst should be single target. What i suggested earlier (in rough terms) were to rework cyclone slash into a secondary aoe abilty, so that you don't have the redicilous burst from smash, and making focus a AoE spec, not burst-aoe-utility-overalldamage spec.

 

Why should AoE not be burst though? This seems more like personal preference and less game balance. The idea behind the class is to get in , burst damage, get out. Adding a secondary AOE ability prolongs time between multiple targets which is a bad idea. Changing this aspect of the smash spec changes the play style entirely.

 

And, as stated above, this all revolves around nerfing healing in PVP which will-indirectly effect every other classes performance.

 

These are large sweeping changes when I find that small tweaks are needed more.

 

I would say the first thing to do is experiment with numbers, see what smashers are really outputting with numbers

of kills and damage over deaths. See how focused they are on objectives (based on objective points), their protection numbers ect.

 

Then compare it to other classes and see how things are really stacked up.

[Skroting]

Why should AoE not be burst though? This seems more like personal preference and less game balance. The idea behind the class is to get in , burst damage, get out. Adding a secondary AOE ability prolongs time between multiple targets which is a bad idea. Changing this aspect of the smash spec changes the play style entirely.

 

And, as stated above, this all revolves around nerfing healing in PVP which will-indirectly effect every other classes performance.

 

These are large sweeping changes when I find that small tweaks are needed more.

 

I would say the first thing to do is experiment with numbers, see what smashers are really outputting with numbers

of kills and damage over deaths. See how focused they are on objectives (based on objective points), their protection numbers ect.

 

Then compare it to other classes and see how things are really stacked up.

 

Because if you can outperform single-target dps when it comes to burst, you diminish the usefullness of every class which is based arround single-target damage. Which means in terms of pure damage output the only class worth taking in a pvp group is the focus. (read: pure damage output, don't take any utility in consideration)

[Dragonexadon]

Because if you can outperform single-target dps when it comes to burst, you diminish the usefullness of every class which is based arround single-target damage. Which means in terms of pure damage output the only class worth taking in a pvp group is the focus. (read: pure damage output, don't take any utility in consideration)

 

Do you have the numbers to prove that smash outperforms every class on single DPS? Smash tops the charts due to AOE damage. Not single target by any means. Though this has peaked my interest enough to get the PVPers in my guild to hit the dummy and see who comes out on top (we have two smashers, and a few other classes that i can play with)

[Skroting]

Ah, no I actually have no documentation on this issue, but as far as experience goes, i have yet to find anyone who outbursts the focus spec. I'm not talking about sustained singletarget dps, which your dummy parses will show is in no way in favor for focus, but that's not what we're discussing here. But if you do manage to get some usefull numbers on who provides what burst damage that would be lovely.

[Dragonexadon]

Ah what burst damage that would be lovely.

 

What time frame would you consider burst? 1, 5, 10 seconds of DPS ect?

[Skroting]

Hmm, not certain, a 3-4 GCD sequence?

 

Edit: thumbs up for making my quote seam really poetic tho

 

Edit 2: Ofcourse if any of these numbers are to have any real value, we will have to figure out how often the class can provide the burst "rotation"

Edited August 6, 2013 by Skroting

[K_osss]

Fine if you really want that to be its "niche" then let's make all the talents that affect everything else like 30% armor pen and 15% surge only affect smash eh? Or take out the talent where you do 9% more damage after every smash? People act like focus spec is still a one trick pony which is stupid. Everything crits hard and has a decent chance to crit because of the talents in the tree, and guess what crit damage can't be shielded, it is only affected by armor BUT oh wait focus has 30% armor pen ALL THE TIME. Arguments about smash being shut down by taunts and guards and tank defenses, SO WHAT, all the other dps have to deal with the same stuff and their heavy hitters aren't all auto-crit, let alone aoe. If you want it to be a one trick pony fine, but the point is Andrew is trying to nerf the class without killing it, and keeping single target dps the same but nerfing aoe dps some is a reasonable nerf.

 

If one agrees Bioware sees focus as an AOE pressure role then reducing it's aoe potential devalues the spec. I think that they view Focus as providing AOE pressure so I oppose reducing it's AOE potential.

[K_osss]

Because if you can outperform single-target dps when it comes to burst, you diminish the usefullness of every class which is based arround single-target damage. Which means in terms of pure damage output the only class worth taking in a pvp group is the focus. (read: pure damage output, don't take any utility in consideration)

 

I'm confident Focus/Smash is behind burst potential of Combat/Carnage over 5 global cooldowns regarding single target. Combat has incredible single target burst potential.

[Skroting]

I'm confident Focus/Smash is behind burst potential of Combat/Carnage over 5 global cooldowns regarding single target. Combat has incredible single target burst potential.

 

If they are better, then by how much?

 

Say you have combat spec with what ~15k (or a bit more?) burst rotation, and a focus spec with ~12k+ (this is simply of the top of my head, no evidence to back this up). Now take into regards that about half of that has the potential to damage up to 4 other targets at the same time, *in addition* to the 12k single target. If something along these lines are in the same ballpark that the current performance of these specs, then you would certainly 9 times out of 10 pick the focus, based solely on a damage point of view.

 

Imagine you are setting up your RWZ group, you have covered all your tank and healing needs etc, and all you need is pure damage output, which class would you bring?

[Maelael]

Imagine you are setting up your RWZ group, you have covered all your tank and healing needs etc, and all you need is pure damage output, which class would you bring?

 

Sniper/Gunslinger. But were talking about Sents/Maras and Guardians/Juggs with Focus/Ragehere buddy.

 

(Single target its about 5-10% better, sometimes close to 15% as combat over Focus. Depends on the RNG. Yes, I'm sure. Its also easier to solo most classes in Combat. Try it. I swear that Vig is about the same % but Ive never run either enough on the jugg to really say for sure.)

Edited August 6, 2013 by Maelael

[Skroting]

Sniper/Gunslinger. But were talking about Sents/Maras and Guardians/Juggs with Focus/Ragehere buddy.

 

(Single target its about 5-10% better, sometimes close to 15% as combat over Focus. Depends on the RNG. Yes, I'm sure. Its also easier to solo most classes in Combat. Try it. I swear that Vig is about the same % but Ive never run either enough on the jugg to really say for sure.)

 

Well i don't see how you could respond to my question in that manner, if you didn't actually realize that i was aswell talking about focus specced sents/guards. Was this supposed to be an attempt at redicule?

And if those numbers are correct, i would say the trade-off is weighing *heavily* in the favor of your friendly neighbourhood Focus spec, seing as they would provide "comparable" single target output, while still potentially threatening 4 additional targets in their burst rotation.

[znihilist]

If they are better, then by how much?

 

Say you have combat spec with what ~15k (or a bit more?) burst rotation, and a focus spec with ~12k+ (this is simply of the top of my head, no evidence to back this up). Now take into regards that about half of that has the potential to damage up to 4 other targets at the same time, *in addition* to the 12k single target. If something along these lines are in the same ballpark that the current performance of these specs, then you would certainly 9 times out of 10 pick the focus, based solely on a damage point of view.

 

Imagine you are setting up your RWZ group, you have covered all your tank and healing needs etc, and all you need is pure damage output, which class would you bring?

 

Combat can probably kill a none-Tank in a single burst (if lucky with a crit) that's how bursty it is!

30% alacrity combined with 4.5 seconds of 100% armor penetration, you do the math!

 

edit: check this thread.

Edited August 7, 2013 by znihilist

[kennethdale]

Ah, no I actually have no documentation on this issue, but as far as experience goes, i have yet to find anyone who outbursts the focus spec. I'm not talking about sustained singletarget dps, which your dummy parses will show is in no way in favor for focus, but that's not what we're discussing here. But if you do manage to get some usefull numbers on who provides what burst damage that would be lovely.

 

The big issue people aren't recognizing in any discussion about buffing/nerfing/changing Rage/Focus is that balance applies to more than just cross-class; it is within class as well. Take Sorc/Sages for example: Lightning/Telekenesis is fantastic single-target, stationary DPS but when you have to move, there is still a valid argument to go hybrid (Pure Madness/Balance is simply to resource inefficient). Now apply that to Sentinel/Marauders for a start:

 

In PvP Rage/Focus is the best, but Carnage/Combat has a LOT of utility and can be great when played by the right person, and Annihilation/Watchman is worthless because it has too much ramp up. In PvE Carnage/Combat and Annihilation/Watchman are pretty even with Carnage/Combat being better for burst and Annihilation/Watchman better for sustained but in reality you can pretty much play whichever fits your style. Rage/Focus in PvE, is crap unless there are a lot of adds and very little need for sustained, on-boss DPS. That is a LOT of symmetry and balance (whether or not Marauder/Sentinels are balanced across classes or ACs is a different discussion). Buffing Rage/Focus to be on par with the other specs in terms of single-target DPS would make playing anything OTHER than Rage/Focus worthless since neither of the other specs have any viable, sustained AoE.

 

Now Juggs/Guardians:

 

In PvP Rage/Focus is best, but Vengeance/Vigilance has a lot of utility and power when played by the right person and Immortal/Defense in DPS gear is pretty damned good as well. In PvE, Immortal/Defense is irrelevant for DPS but Vengeance/Vigilance and Rage/Focus are pretty even. Veng/Vig can top out higher with good RNG but Rage/Focus will provide a bit more utility in terms of raid since it has the highest AoE DPS in the game (higher than Sent/Mara in similar gear due to Str buff talent). Again, Buffing/Nerfing/Changing Rage/Focus would affect the balance between the specs and put people in the situation where they cannot choose which spec to play based on their likes, dislikes and playstyle but based on what simply is better.

 

For reference, I do NOT play Rage/Focus on either my Marauder (Carnage for PvP, Annihilation/Carnage for PvE) or my Juggernaut (Immortal for PvP, Immortal/Vengeance for PvE). I hate Rage as a spec. I have only ever specced Rage twice on my Marauder (never on my Jugg) and it was because I was asked to in a raid. Hated every second of it. In general, I think most people who play Rage/Focus don't understand the class mechanics well enough to play a real spec. All that said, I do NOT think Rage/Focus should be changed in any appreciable form simply because it is "over-powered". Those claims are COMPLETELY unjustified. If you got destroyed by a Rage/Focus Mara/Sent/Jugg/Guard in PvP chances are A) you were standing in a stupid place for a long time and were asking to get smashed or B) he/she was just flat out better than you. If you got destroyed by a Rage/Focus Mara/Sent/Jugg/Guard in single-target DPS in PvE then you are just bad at PvE. Nerfs/Buffs should be in response to actual issues and not people QQing about getting owned.

 

If they are better, then by how much?

 

Say you have combat spec with what ~15k (or a bit more?) burst rotation, and a focus spec with ~12k+ (this is simply of the top of my head, no evidence to back this up). Now take into regards that about half of that has the potential to damage up to 4 other targets at the same time, *in addition* to the 12k single target. If something along these lines are in the same ballpark that the current performance of these specs, then you would certainly 9 times out of 10 pick the focus, based solely on a damage point of view.

 

Imagine you are setting up your RWZ group, you have covered all your tank and healing needs etc, and all you need is pure damage output, which class would you bring?

 

EDITED TO CHANGE TONE:

Please do not use made up numbers. Numbers based in fact, ok, sure. Thats what I did. I play my Carnage Mara enough to know what each one of his abilities hit for so I can round pretty reasonably. That is one thing. What you are doing there is absolutely making up numbers and that has no basis in a discussion.

 

Moved the Carnage/Combat vs Rage/Focus comparison down and extended it to 9 second burst, here is what a Rage/Focus would look like:

Enrage>Force Leap 2k>Smash 9k>FS/BS 5k>Force Crush 7k>Ravage/MS 17k>Obliterate 5k = 45000 damage = 5000 DPS

 

Here is the Carnage/Combat extended out to 9 seconds:

Berserk>Gore/PS 2k>FS/BS 9k>VT/Dispatch 7k>Massacre/BR 3.5k>Massacre/BR 3.5k>PS 2k>Ravage/MS 28k>Massacre 3.5k>FS/BS 9k = 67500 damage = 7500 DPS

 

Thats 1.5 times more burst dps and a straight 22500 more damage in the same time period

 

In response to the question though, you bring both. You bring the Rage/Focus for pressure on healers and you bring the Combat/Carnage for the FF and the Pred.

Edited August 7, 2013 by kennethdale
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