[Rep] State of the Guardian Address

[KrysFyre]

I've played on my guardian (leveled as dps and switched to tank when I hit 50) and I have to say that I was practically crying with happiness when the saber reflect came in. However, I'd like to see some slight damage increase for both the dps and the tanks.

 

From what I've read on this thread we're basically saying we lack dps, our leaps are buggy and vig pvp is lacking.

 

Can we stay on topic and all just post the question we'd like answered?

 

So I guess my question would be: What can we do to increase dps on the Guardians for raid viability?

[Dragonexadon]

I

So I guess my question would be: What can we do to increase dps on the Guardians for raid viability?

I admit I have no real experience using Guardian dps (none worth mentioning). As far as tanking goes our DPS is fine. I see no need , or numbers, that show Guardian tanks are lacking in DPS

[maverickmatt]

We have gotten way off topic, introducing SHADOW TANKS into the State of the Guardian address. I understand Shadows are irritated but.. you have a thread for that.. and a class rep.

 

In the meantime..

 

There is ZERO reason an AOE spec should even come close to rivaling the single target damage of the SINGLE TARGET SPEC.

 

People will say "L2P"

 

Isay.. look at the parses. Smash is only BARELY edged out by Vigilance in the Single Target Damage department. It's insanity

[Dragonexadon]

ANother point I think is worth bringing up : Leveling up as a guardian.

 

This is brutal in PVP and PVE. We simply do not have a good tool set early game. Perhaps abilities like Push, Taunt, and Challenging call should get introduced to a player early on? I believe many of the Guardians abilities should be re worked , as far as what level you receive them at, based on their usefulness in PVP/PVE

 

Most guardians I spoken to feel that leveling up was painful till about early 40s. I believe this is too late in the game for a class to start to feel useful.

[Riivan]

I found the curve no more difficult than any other class.

[Berjiz]

ANother point I think is worth bringing up : Leveling up as a guardian.

 

This is brutal in PVP and PVE. We simply do not have a good tool set early game. Perhaps abilities like Push, Taunt, and Challenging call should get introduced to a player early on? I believe many of the Guardians abilities should be re worked , as far as what level you receive them at, based on their usefulness in PVP/PVE

 

Most guardians I spoken to feel that leveling up was painful till about early 40s. I believe this is too late in the game for a class to start to feel useful.

Think its similar for all tanks. Possibly shadows have it slightly harder to due to having much more migation related to skills and talents than the others, especially hardness darkness.

[Sharee]

ANother point I think is worth bringing up : Leveling up as a guardian.

 

This is brutal in PVP and PVE. We simply do not have a good tool set early game. Perhaps abilities like Push, Taunt, and Challenging call should get introduced to a player early on? I believe many of the Guardians abilities should be re worked , as far as what level you receive them at, based on their usefulness in PVP/PVE

 

Most guardians I spoken to feel that leveling up was painful till about early 40s. I believe this is too late in the game for a class to start to feel useful.

 

Generally i agree that the class matures late, but i have hard time imagining leveling in this game as being 'brutal', no matter what class. The PVE is just so easy.

 

With my new guardian (made just for fun, already got 2 maxed) i decided to complete every quest she runs across. By the time she finished Taris, she was level 28. If i wanted to, i could skip Nar Shaddaa and Tatooine completely and go straight for Alderaan. If i keep doing all quests, i will be one-shotting green mobs and soloing all heroics all the way to 55.

[Helig]

Change Saber Reflect to only work on melee and ranged attacks and have it apply to all of them. It gives Guardians a very specific niche: the awesome anti-melee/ranged tank, and it makes a lot more sense to be able to push someone's vibrosword back into their face than it does to play baseball with telekinetics.

Windu reflected Palpatine's lightning, your argument is invalid

 

Just teasing.

 

In all seriousness though, I'm rather against forcing tanks into niches. "Specific niches" - even less so.

 

I also believe that cooldown systems for all tank classes need a second look. Some people would probably want to lynch me for saying this, but I don't think Warding Call the way it is now is a necessity, at least in the current state of affairs. I was always partial to short, functional cooldowns, as opposite to long, powerful ones. Call it a pet fetish, but I'd also love specced Enure to allow us to keep the HP after the buff expires.

[kennethdale]

I posted this over in the Juggernaut thread but our rep has gone awol and the discussion isn't really moving forward so I thought id see if you Jedi had an insight. I apologize for not knowing the Guardian terminology so its all Juggy.

 

So for my background I main a Mara but my second most used toon is my jugg who is primarily a tank but is used for dps on occasion. The absolute biggest issue I see for juggs is the insane variance in the Rampage proc. If you get lucky your dps will skyrocket but otherwise you get stuck in a heartbreaking rut of watching Ravage CD naturally time after time. I've proposed a few different solutions and here ill compile them:

 

1) Give all damaging abilities a chance to proc Rampage. This would change the current system of waiting out the internal cd and simply using Ravage on Cd though it would require a lower overall proc chance.

 

2) Have the Rampage Talent decrease the cd on Ravage by 3/6/9 seconds AND gave a 30% chance on impale/shatter to increase damage done by 3.33%/6.67/10% for 10 seconds. This would allow us a lot more burst by both lowering the CD on Ravage AND giving us a procced burst window. This is my personal favorite.

 

As for the post made by Enarls, the entirety was too long-winded without any sort of focus or format, and they sounded very much like we are attacking the devs when we want to try to foster change not hinder it. Most importantly they weren't questions.

 

Here are my suggestions:

PvE -

The community has expressed a lot of concern regarding the variance of the Vengeance tree DPS. In particular, the issues seem to stem from the Rampage talent and its relation to the length of the cool downs on both Shatter and impale. Other proc based classes have either a much larger chance to obtain a proc than the 30% of Rampage or are able to use more abilities to obtain a proc than Juggernauts at this point. Because of this the DPS of the Vengeance tree can shift by large amounts (up to approximately 300-400 DPS in a given fight) based solely on how often a player received Rampage procs and how well-timed these procs were. As a result of this, many in the community feel that the stronger, more reliable DPS spec is Rage which as was referenced in your answers to the Jedi Sentinel questions is intended to be lower single target DPS but higher multi-target DPS. Is this variability of DPS in the Vengeance tree intended and are Juggernauts intended to use Rage for single-target DPS unlike Marauders/Sentinels?

 

PvP -

The community has significant concerns about the usefulness of Enraged Defenses particularly in DPS specs as all other DPS classes have a resource-free threat drop that in some cases (Marauders/Sentinels, Mercenaries/Commandos, Assassin/Shadow) provides significant utility on top of the threat drop without adding a cost. What is the reasoning behind providing Juggernauts with only a resource-intensive threat drop with the utility of a built-in heal and is there any intention to bring this threat drop more in line with other threat drop abilities?

 

General -

The community has noticed that while Juggernauts possess some of the strongest defensive cool down abilities we lack any sort of on demand damage increase ability. This can often lead to Juggernauts being viewed as lacking offensive utility in both PvP and PvE environments. Was giving Juggernauts a defensive only suite of cool downs an intentional decision and if so what role did the design and development teams envision Juggernaut DPS fulfilling in group environments?

[ArenCordial]

If I had to make my top Guardian concerns in questions it would be something like this.

 

1.) Vigilance dps

[General-The community currently feels there is too much reliance on RNG that can make the spec's dps range from average to good.

 

According to the top parsers http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=664980 the class is currently ranged third from the bottom, only beating out Shadows and non-hybrid Vanguards, both of which are currently considered broken by their communities and despite the fact that Vigilance is considered optimal for parsing by developers http://www.madsithassassin.com/2013/03/assassin-developer-interview.html.

 

For being the most melee oriented class in the game, it could stand to get a buff and have less reliance on luck especially considering many raid groups consider melee a liability simply mechanics wise and that's before most ranged dps out parse them. Would buffs/changes to Zen Strike and Preparation be something to consider?

-------

 

2.) Cooldowns

The Guardian has expressed concern over its cooldowns for DPS builds.

 

-Defensive - Focused Defense leaves us in an awkward position of being useful in PvP as a DR increase but in PvE it acts also as a costly threat dump. Would the devs consider either separating the abilities or acting similar to Taunts, acting different depending if you are in PvE or PvP?

 

-Offensive Cooldown - Unlike the other classes in the game Guardians lack an Offensive Cooldown of any kind. What this an unintentional oversight? What is the rational here?

-------

 

3.) Raid Utility

Many in the Guardian community feel we don't bring much to a raid group as DPS. As it stand in SWTOR it seems for the most part this is how classes are treated utility wise.

 

Single Role DPS - Gets raid wide utility powers and droid cc.

Stealth Classes - Get stealth CC and rez (plus some of whatever other role they fulfill)

Off-Heals - Get CC, off-heals, and rez

Off-Tank - Gets taunts, improved Damage Reduction stance, and armor reduction or grapple.

 

Many have found Taunts and Improved Damage reduction stances rarely see use, sometimes going months between use. Armor Reduction is easily found in a variety of classes and specs and our Vanguard's brethren see little use for Grapples. Is there something the devs can do or consider to bring the off-tank dps classes (Guardian, Juggernaut, Vanguard, and Powertech) to improve our use and chances to join to a raid group, whether progression or pug.

 

-------

I included Vanguards in the last one because they are in the same boat we are and as much as I love Guardian, the class shouldn't receive special treatment.

Edited August 17, 2013 by ArenCordial

[kennethdale]

If I had to make my top Guardian concerns in questions it would be something like this.

 

1.) Vigilance dps

[General-The community currently feels there is too much reliance on RNG that can make the spec's dps range from average to good.

 

According to the top parsers http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=664980 the class is currently ranged third from the bottom, only beating out Shadows and non-hybrid Vanguards, both of which are currently considered broken by their communities and despite the fact that Vigilance is considered optimal for parsing by developers http://www.madsithassassin.com/2013/03/assassin-developer-interview.html.

 

For being the most melee oriented class in the game, it could stand to get a buff and have less reliance on luck especially considering many raid groups consider melee a liability simply mechanics wise and that's before most ranged dps out parse them. Would buffs/changes to Zen Strike and Preparation be something to consider?

-------

 

2.) Cooldowns

The Guardian has expressed concern over its cooldowns for DPS builds.

 

-Defensive - Focused Defense leaves us in an awkward position of being useful in PvP as a DR increase but in PvE it acts also as a costly threat dump. Would the devs consider either separating the abilities or acting similar to Taunts, acting different depending if you are in PvE or PvP?

 

-Offensive Cooldown - Unlike the other classes in the game Guardians lack an Offensive Cooldown of any kind. What this an unintentional oversight? What is the rational here?

-------

 

3.) Raid Utility

Many in the Guardian community feel we don't bring much to a raid group as DPS. As it stand in SWTOR it seems for the most part this is how classes are treated utility wise.

 

Single Role DPS - Gets raid wide utility powers and droid cc.

Stealth Classes - Get stealth CC and rez (plus some of whatever other role they fulfill)

Off-Heals - Get CC, off-heals, and rez

Off-Tank - Gets taunts, improved Damage Reduction stance, and armor reduction or grapple.

 

Many have found Taunts and Improved Damage reduction stances rarely see use, sometimes going months between use. Armor Reduction is easily found in a variety of classes and specs and our Vanguard's brethren see little use for Grapples. Is there something the devs can do or consider to bring the off-tank dps classes (Guardian, Juggernaut, Vanguard, and Powertech) to improve our use and chances to join to a raid group, whether progression or pug.

 

-------

I included Vanguards in the last one because they are in the same boat we are and as much as I love Guardian, the class shouldn't receive special treatment.

 

1) Vanguards get their own questions, why would we include them in ours? These questions have nothing to do with the state of the game overall but rather apply only to the AC asking the questions.

 

2) These questions do not even vaguely follow the format the devs are asking for.

[ArenCordial]

1) Vanguards get their own questions, why would we include them in ours? These questions have nothing to do with the state of the game overall but rather apply only to the AC asking the questions.

 

2) These questions do not even vaguely follow the format the devs are asking for.

 

1.) Cuz its not just a Guardian issue, its really an DPS/Tank class design issue that Guardians are affected by, in addition to of course Vanguards. The reason I brought it in is because everyone keeps going on and on about us getting utility skills, which if we got would basically be special treatment as we aren't only class with this problem. I felt it necessary to bring this in a reminder. The questions are by no means final formats, hence why there's some long explainations in there.

 

2.) Totally agree, this is more a lets start throwing out the questions picking the ideas we like, and find then the wording. Too much but what about this idea to fix our problems....is going on (I'm certainly guilty of this as well). Its getting counter productive.

[kennethdale]

1.) Cuz its not just a Guardian issue, its really an DPS/Tank class design issue that Guardians are affected by, in addition to of course Vanguards. The reason I brought it in is because everyone keeps going on and on about us getting utility skills, which if we got would basically be special treatment as we aren't only class with this problem. I felt it necessary to bring this in a reminder. The questions are by no means final formats, hence why there's some long explainations in there.

 

2.) Totally agree, this is more a lets start throwing out the questions picking the ideas we like, and find then the wording. Too much but what about this idea to fix our problems....is going on (I'm certainly guilty of this as well). Its getting counter productive.

 

 

Did you by any chance take a look at my proposes questions just above your post?

[ArenCordial]

Did you by any chance take a look at my proposes questions just above your post?

 

Honestly I don't know how I missed them but I did. Yours are more concise than mine. I really like the general question and the question on Vigilance is well done. I'm wondering though if we should hold off on locking the PvP question down at least Guardian side for the time being to see how we end up doing in 4x4. What do you think?

[Riivan]

All I am asking is we nail down a list of questions. We spend so much time giving out ideas on what BW should do when all they're asking for are 3 questions. Let's get a list of pvp, pve and whatever questions compiled so that when the time comes all we have to do is figure out which ones we want to ask. Things may change or the jug answers may knock out a few questions, but we'll at least be prepared.

[kennethdale]

Honestly I don't know how I missed them but I did. Yours are more concise than mine. I really like the general question and the question on Vigilance is well done. I'm wondering though if we should hold off on locking the PvP question down at least Guardian side for the time being to see how we end up doing in 4x4. What do you think?

 

I definitely agree, I do NOT PvP on my Jugg so I have no clue but that is just what I had heard of people wanting.

[JefferyClark]

Guardians should have a passive addition to generate resolve faster. We are the most melee-oriented class and have only a small handful of attacks beyond melee range (ie, 3m or less in front of you and within 15 degrees on either side from centerline) yet are also the least able to break any form of CC, having to wait for 2 stuns to generate enough resolve or risk using our cc-breaker and getting stunned again with no chance of living through the encounter. Not to mention the fact that we then have to reacquire the target, and hope they aren't in cover.

 

A solution would be that any hard stun resets saber throw and force leap. While also taking time off a cooldown in the mid-Vig talent spec. I wish we could remove the "you can't leap to them because they are in cover" too since it is silly that certain classes can knock us down to nothing in 2 or 3 hits while we can't close the distance to actually engage them.

Edited August 19, 2013 by JefferyClark

[Dragonexadon]

You're confusing the *number* of abilities in the priority with complexity of rotation..

Shadow tanks really do not have a complex rotation. Both are very easy to play. It comes down to personal preference.

[Dragonexadon]

2) These questions do not even vaguely follow the format the devs are asking for.

 

I might be missing something, but I do not see any format the devs provided other than

EDIT: We also adding the rule that of your top 3, 1 issue must be PvP and 1 must be PvE for equal representation.

[Dragonexadon]

I think Aren, and others bring up what our questions should focus on well. For our PVE questions they should revolve around

 

PVE

Focused Defense

• Cost VS Benefit
  

Guardians feel the cost / benefit of focused defense does not balance well with other abilities that have similar effects.

 

Vigilance DPS

• Benefit of bringing a Vigilance DPS spec in raids
  

Vigilance DPS lacks in DPS and utility of other DPS classes. Thus , because it is a melee class, it is normally a second choice DPS to bring over classes that can take less damage, do more damage output, and/or have more raid utility. Are there plans to bring up Vigilance DPS/Utility for raiding?

 

PVP

Focus Spec

• Focus spec in PVP has high damage output, one trick pony
  

Do devs consider damage output too high of the ‘smash’ spec. If so what/how do they plan to alter focus so it is still viable in PVP while nerfing their damage.

 

 

These questions are a general summary of what I believe we should focus on. It seems the most common questions that we bring up. If we could fine-tune these questions I believe we would be golden. (Focus defense, Vigilance DPS, Focus Spec in PVP)

Edited August 19, 2013 by Dragonexadon

[Icebergy]

If it were completely up to me, these would be my three issues:

 

1. Knock back protection. I don't know who decided that it is fun gameplay for tanks to get constantly knocked around and stunned for the duration of trash pulls so that we are unable to do our job and tank, but it is not fun, at all.

 

2. Focused Defense needs a revamp. At the very least the focus cost needs to be removed so that DPS Guardians can actually use it, but I would also love to see some way for Defense Guardians to spec into removing the threat drop from the ability.

 

3. Ghost abilities. The master strike thing is very annoying and is a DPS loss for all Guardians of all specs. Also I have had instances where I have tried to Force Leap to a boss and had the ability not happen, resulting in my DPS pulling off me and dying.

[Dragonexadon]

I

3. Ghost abilities. The master strike thing is very annoying and is a DPS loss for all Guardians of all specs. Also I have had instances where I have tried to Force Leap to a boss and had the ability not happen, resulting in my DPS pulling off me and dying.

 

This one andrew already asked in person, so we got a freebee out of it.

[Riivan]

I understand that Focus is sort of a one trick pony, but it was made to be great aoe and acceptable single target damage. You can't give them both. So long as questions concerning focus don't center around increasing its single target dps then we're good.

[Dragonexadon]

I understand that Focus is sort of a one trick pony, but it was made to be great aoe and acceptable single target damage. You can't give them both. So long as questions concerning focus don't center around increasing its single target dps then we're good.

I agree, I personally like where focus is at. It seems the majority of people though feel it does too much damage. Which is why I added it to the list I set.

 

Edit: I also think we should be working with the Juggernaut class rep. Our classes are mirrored classes. We should ask different questions then what they are asking and thus get 6 answers about our class rather than 3.

Edited August 20, 2013 by Dragonexadon

[Riivan]

They have come up with their questions if I am not mistaken. We'll just remove those from the list once they get their answers.