Juggernaut suggestions for our Representative

[ssfish]

I've already provided my input on the questions to both class reps. They can choose to take that and use it to develop the PvE question from it, or they can not. Since I have provided both with my opinion on what the question should be centered around, my involvement in the actual process is over. Now is the time for me to be "off-topic" by discussing guardians on the guardian forums.

[UncleOst]

I've already provided my input on the questions to both class reps. They can choose to take that and use it to develop the PvE question from it, or they can not. Since I have provided both with my opinion on what the question should be centered around, my involvement in the actual process is over. Now is the time for me to be "off-topic" by discussing guardians on the guardian forums.

 

Bah. You're right. I'll sit back a see what happens. It's enough already. Time to let the people's champions do their jobs lol.

 

Best of luck on the battlefield brutha.

[SkiaTheShade]

I think at this point our PvP question should be in the realm of group utility for WZ's and the upcoming Arena's.

 

"Are there any plans to change/improve group utility for DPS Juggernauts so there is an equal incentive to bring a DPS Juggernaut instead or in addition to a Marauder."

 

Thoughts?

[MarkXXIV]

How is vengeance in ranked? I hear it isn't as good as it needs to be for ranked. I am also hearing that marauder rage is superior to jug rage. It would be nice if the 2 rage spec were closer to the same strength and if vengeance jug were viable/optimal in ranked.( and warzone in general)

[Alec_Fortescue]

How is vengeance in ranked? I hear it isn't as good as it needs to be for ranked. I am also hearing that marauder rage is superior to jug rage. It would be nice if the 2 rage spec were closer to the same strength and if vengeance jug were viable/optimal in ranked.( and warzone in general)

 

Vengeance is very similar in it's style and theory to Annihilation. Takes time to get it working and there are dots to maintain in order to get a decent dps. Annihilation is superior to vengeance in almost every way and yet we rarely see annihilation marauders around. Vengeance is simply not a pvp spec. And yes, marauder's rage will get better results in terms of damage, which is also reflected in the various leaderboards and record threads/websites ran by players. They have two lightsabers to hit with, plenty of good defensive abilities (reduced cd on guided by bioware!) and inspiration. This is crucial as rage is a 'first in, first out' sort of a spec. Juggernauts survive far less than marauders who can either use god mode to change the tide or stealth out and escape outside of the 30 meter range.

 

We can't compare. Although we can taunt, it's not helping when we're the ones being pounded and switching to soresu and guarding significantly affects our damage output. We're also slightly more mobile with freezing force with almost no cd and intercede. While helpful, marauders will be more in favor. I'd prefer to have classes with defined roles when it comes to battle and ranked pvp, not ones which can do bit of this and bit of that. Temporary health boost is not that good as it tends to last less than guided by Bioware unless we're tanks. And worst of all - when it expires it is causing your character to suddenly collapse. I found it so frustrating when it allowed me to win a fight but second after its expiration i got killed by a dot since I had 1 hp...

Edited August 12, 2013 by Alec_Fortescue

[Marb]

So has anyone seen our class rep? our questions are next on the schedule for Bioware to answer. Edited August 12, 2013 by Marb

[Alec_Fortescue]

So has anyone seen our class rep? our questions are next on the schedule for Bioware to answer.

 

when wil they be answered?!

[Marb]

Actually no, we still have till the end of the month (30th) my bad. Edited August 12, 2013 by Marb

[Luckygunslinger]

Just to summarise, what is it that we, as the Jugg community are putting forward as our questions for this time frame?

[MarkXXIV]

Vengeance is very similar in it's style and theory to Annihilation. Takes time to get it working and there are dots to maintain in order to get a decent dps. Annihilation is superior to vengeance in almost every way and yet we rarely see annihilation marauders around. Vengeance is simply not a pvp spec. And yes, marauder's rage will get better results in terms of damage, which is also reflected in the various leaderboards and record threads/websites ran by players. They have two lightsabers to hit with, plenty of good defensive abilities (reduced cd on guided by bioware!) and inspiration. This is crucial as rage is a 'first in, first out' sort of a spec. Juggernauts survive far less than marauders who can either use god mode to change the tide or stealth out and escape outside of the 30 meter range.

 

We can't compare. Although we can taunt, it's not helping when we're the ones being pounded and switching to soresu and guarding significantly affects our damage output. We're also slightly more mobile with freezing force with almost no cd and intercede. While helpful, marauders will be more in favor. I'd prefer to have classes with defined roles when it comes to battle and ranked pvp, not ones which can do bit of this and bit of that. Temporary health boost is not that good as it tends to last less than guided by Bioware unless we're tanks. And worst of all - when it expires it is causing your character to suddenly collapse. I found it so frustrating when it allowed me to win a fight but second after its expiration i got killed by a dot since I had 1 hp...

 

Vengance not a warzone spec? D: Is advanced prototype better? I want to play juggernaut or powertech. I love annihilation and carnage but vengeance just seems to have way more mitigation and much better control without heavily relying on things like gore/annihilator and isn't as vulnerable to cc. Is jugs damage too low? Camo is nice but if you are dotted you are dead and you can be ccd while using undying.

Edited August 12, 2013 by MarkXXIV

[ArenCordial]

Vengance not a warzone spec? D: Is advanced prototype better? I want to play juggernaut or powertech. I love annihilation and carnage but vengeance just seems to have way more mitigation and much better control without heavily relying on things like gore/annihilator and isn't as vulnerable to cc. Is jugs damage too low? Camo is nice but if you are dotted you are dead and you can be ccd while using undying.

 

You can PvP with Veng but I doubt you'll find too many ranked teams wanting you. Vengeance can deal respectable damage but it doesn't have the burst that the Rage spec does, which is what you want in a PvP environment.

[MarkXXIV]

You can PvP with Veng but I doubt you'll find too many ranked teams wanting you. Vengeance can deal respectable damage but it doesn't have the burst that the Rage spec does, which is what you want in a PvP environment.

 

advanced prototype or annihilation wanted more than vengeance? You guys asking a question about vengeance for pvp? Vengeance is one of the most fun specs I have ever played, bioware sucks at balancing for warzone. They only care about pve -__-.

Edited August 13, 2013 by MarkXXIV

[ArenCordial]

advanced prototype or annihilation wanted more than vengeance? You guys asking a question about vengeance for pvp? Vengeance is one of the most fun specs I have ever played, bioware sucks at balancing for warzone. They only care about pve -__-.

 

Trust me you'll find many PvE players who argue balance is centered around PvP also. As to your question Annihilation has a longer build up so its tough to preform as well as Carnage or Rage. As for Adv Prototype well I've only had a little experience with it. Its more resilient than Pyrotech so its probably the spec to go if you don't try the Powertech hybrid.

 

Frankly you can PvP in any of those specs and still do well. Between all those I'd say currently I'd choose Vengeance or Adv Prototype. I still PvP in Vengeance sometimes just to throw off ppl sometimes even if Rage is all the rage Most ppl assume you'd be running Rage so that can give you a few moments to take the advantage. Smart players won't be fooled and will know how to counter you but Veng has some great perks.

 

If you have more questions, you should probably start a new thread so we don't take this thread off-topic anymore than we already have.

Edited August 13, 2013 by ArenCordial

[beliglath]

My sugestion? fix sabre reflect so it does not deflect while active, its annoying when i want to reflect something and i get a deflect ( im a tank ) and because of that i end up loosing aggro, also i would love it to provide cc inmunity during its duration, we are the only tank that doesnt have that. ( it feels stupid when i reflect the damage from a stun but i get stunned anyways )

[Ottoattack]

Just to re-focus, you do not want the questions to be a direct comparison with marauder, which most of the questions seem to be going. Also for PvP, rage jugg is more than decent in RWZs. While marauders have better survivability the damage output is very close and considering that jugg offers more on the table than just damage (respec to tank, aoe slow, force push, intercede and taunt), the answer from the devs will be "working as intended." In addition rage jugg is a head of most classes in damage output and survivability in PvP.

 

Also, jugg is the best tank with a large margin in PvP and PvE

 

The questions need to focus on vengeance and sustained damage. Vengeance performance in PvP is not all that great. Both dps specs fall behind in PvE compared to top parsers. Also, the utility in PvE is not that much compared to PvP and several other classes.

Edited August 13, 2013 by Ottoattack

[MasterFeign]

While the jugg isn't my main, I really enjoy vengence. With that being said, I'd think vengence would benefit a lot more with something like the 'oppressor' talent from the rage tree, in the vengence tree as well. A slow (aside from chilling scream) would be quite useful, and chilling scream's higher rage cost and gcd use make it a bit of a nuisance. Especially since rage juggs already have force crush.

[Arlon_Nabarlly]

1: I think that enraged defense should be rage free cost wise. It should last longer, and no longer heal you, but rather have a flat 20% mitigation for 20-30s. This is a baseline addition to help match marauders because I don't think that marauder CD's should be nerfed, other mDPS should be brought up to a closer level.

^ This

[Arlon_Nabarlly]

It really should go without saying that any changes with DPS need to start with an examination of Enraged Defense. With PTs getting their threat dump, there is no reason for ours to remain this rediculous mashup of want-to-be defensive cooldown, rage eater, and threat dump. Don't get me wrong, the Veng version is amazing, hampered only by the Rage cost. The problem for PvE, is you have to hold it for the defensive cooldown. if you have to use it as a threat dump you are essentially wasting its defensive advantages.

qft!!

[Arlon_Nabarlly]

Vengeance spec:

 

- Nothing to revamp or change. Enraged defence in vengeance spec works perfectly as is.

 

- edit [insert] dps adjustments provided by general concensus.

 

I disagree that Enraged Defense in Vengeance works perfectly. We need a cost-free aggro drop and don't need another defensive cooldown, without using ED for a Defensive cooldown we are still more survivable then almost any other DPS class. For Vengance it should be changed to a free aggro drop with no defense and no heal.

[Arlon_Nabarlly]

PvE) Vengeance lives and dies by its rampage proc. The dps difference between a good proc streak and a bad one seems to vary significantly, with vengeance dps only topping out with some very good luck. We recognize that the proc makes our spec more dynamic and fun to play, but we would all prefer a little more consistency in our parses. Would you guys consider making some changes in order to make vengeance less reliant on pure luck?

 

Good point and very well written!

[UncleOst]

I disagree that Enraged Defense in Vengeance works perfectly. We need a cost-free aggro drop and don't need another defensive cooldown, without using ED for a Defensive cooldown we are still more survivable then almost any other DPS class. For Vengance it should be changed to a free aggro drop with no defense and no heal.

 

hehehe... agree to disagree then.

 

Again, the threat dump does need to be removed, and that point will be included in our final questions. Also, not everyone here logs on to pve.

[MarkXXIV]

I disagree that Enraged Defense in Vengeance works perfectly. We need a cost-free aggro drop and don't need another defensive cooldown, without using ED for a Defensive cooldown we are still more survivable then almost any other DPS class. For Vengance it should be changed to a free aggro drop with no defense and no heal.

 

No, you need engraged defense, you trying to turn jug into a marauder?... Ignore rage in warzone(it is already strong and a boring spec anyway), focus on vengeance pvp. I didn't stop playing my marauder because smash isn't strong enough...(hate smash but carnage and annihilation don't compare so I am going to tank now)

Edited August 13, 2013 by MarkXXIV

[Luckygunslinger]

PvE) Vengeance lives and dies by its rampage proc. The dps difference between a good proc streak and a bad one seems to vary significantly, with vengeance dps only topping out with some very good luck. We recognize that the proc makes our spec more dynamic and fun to play, but we would all prefer a little more consistency in our parses. Would you guys consider making some changes in order to make vengeance less reliant on pure luck?

 

Indeed, very well written. It is the back bone and the crippling aspect to our DPS.

[Icebergy]

If it were completely up to me, these would be my three issues:

 

1. Knock back protection. I don't know who decided that it is fun gameplay for tanks to get constantly knocked around and stunned for the duration of trash pulls so that we are unable to do our job and tank, but it is not fun, at all.

 

2. Enraged Defense needs a revamp. At the very least the focus cost needs to be removed so that DPS Juggs can actually use it, but I would also love to see some way for Immortal Juggs to spec into removing the threat drop from the ability.

 

3. Ghost abilities. The master strike thing is very annoying and is a DPS loss for all Juggs of all specs. Also I have had instances where I have tried to Force Leap to a boss and had the ability not happen, resulting in my DPS pulling off me and dying.

[Aelaias]

While the jugg isn't my main, I really enjoy vengence. With that being said, I'd think vengence would benefit a lot more with something like the 'oppressor' talent from the rage tree, in the vengence tree as well. A slow (aside from chilling scream) would be quite useful, and chilling scream's higher rage cost and gcd use make it a bit of a nuisance. Especially since rage juggs already have force crush.

 

The spec doesn't need another slow, it needs better mobility or another second on unstoppable. A better 2 piece pvp set bonus would be nice.