Juggernaut suggestions for our Representative

[Marb]

This thread is weird. We're offering up all these suggestions for class balance, reworking of abilities, etc. as though this is what the class rep does.

 

We have to come up with 3 questions, not offer our opinion on revamped abilities and class balance. How do we rephrase these into questions and what is the highest priority?

 

Its not really relevant to the actual questions, its just brainstorming. Whats the point of asking a question about enraged defense if we don't even know what we want it to do? But yea, apart from asking about enraged defense, and a rampage proc adjustment, I'm not sure what else is pressing enough for the third question.

 

Me personally, for pure quality of life, I would like to see sweeping strike have a couple of free charges after a charge and strike all targets in a 360 arc around the guardian (like flame sweep). We are also the only tank that has to waste resources and a gcd on a simple aoe snare, which is strange considering we are the most restricted to 4m range out of all of the tanks. That's the only oversight I can see with jugg tanks, and with all things considered its barely even worth mentioning because we are so strong in every other area.

 

Jugg tanks have kinda stolen the identity of Pt's and Sin's. I really like Kitru's idea about scaling back the armor and dr from guard stance and crushing blow, with equivalent shield and absorb buffs replacing them. That would make our damage profile a little more unstable while keeping the same overall mitigation, which would let PT's stand on their own with the highest armor and DR of all the tanks once again.

Edited August 2, 2013 by Marb

[Luckygunslinger]

A thing we've been discussing in our own thread on the forum is the percentage chance for Rampage in Vengeance. Not sure if it was brought up in this thread but a number of us feel the proc rate is too low considering Shatter and Impale both work off of CD's. This means that our down time is up a lot more than other DPS, forcing is into the lowest possible baseline of our DPS if you're unlucky to get no procs. Now, this puts Vengeance Very much at Burst DPS over long periods of time. Think of it like this __________/\_________/\___/\_____ and so on. The Proc's are pure random and it gives us no way to actually try and trigger it again. Unlike The Powertech with Flameburst or the Mercenary with Tracer Missile, we have no GCD to proc our ability as well as we have a lower percentage to do so.

Here are some of the suggestions put forward in the thread to fix this issue.

 

 

• ssfish: for every Impale/Shatter that can proc (ie: after the internal lockout) but doesn't, the next ability gets a 5% increased chance to proc. So, if you go a whole Ravage cycle without a proc, you're looking at a 50-55% chance on the next ability, and 75-80% chance if you make it a full 2 Ravage rotations without a proc
   
   
  
• ssfish: Possibly adding a smaller proc chance for Vicious Slash what has a chance to proc rampage.
   
   
  
• Shadowwhispers: Scrap the internal CD and proc from impale completely, and Give shatter a 33/66/100% chance per point of rampage to reset the CD on ravage. (Excellent suggestion. Meaning Ravage can be procced every 14 seconds)
   
   
  
• Shadowwhispers: A reduction to ravage CD on rampage, of 5/10/15 seconds per point, and leave the rest the same, this would mean if you get a string of unlucky procs, you do not get badly screwed over with downtime on bleeds or ravage trying to work around the natural ravage CD of 30 seconds.
   
   
  
• Metalsaber:
  1.) Leave the 30% proc chance in place but remove the lockout.
  2.) Leave the Lockout but add your crit rating to the 30% rampage proc (usually around 20%). So that would be 50% proc chance while leaving in the lockout.
  

 

Those are the suggestions put forward to fix Rampage. Any Juggernaut who brings Vengeance into End Game Content will know about not proccing for a long period of time. It's a game of luck more than anything else. In my opinion and if I may say, the opinion of others, this is the biggest issue with Vengeance.

Edited August 2, 2013 by Luckygunslinger

[UncleOst]

 

Jugg tanks have kinda stolen the identity of Pt's and Sin's. I really like Kitru's idea about scaling back the armor and dr from guard stance and crushing blow, with equivalent shield and absorb buffs replacing them. That would make our damage profile a little more unstable while keeping the same overall mitigation, which would let PT's stand on their own with the highest armor and DR of all the tanks once again.

 

 

Unaware of the necessity for this, but If it were considered, then it may compliment our new mutually progressing version on enraged defence. For it is with this new version that there would be a modest damage reduction while used across the board. I'm still unconvinced of the severity of this topic here. Something else to consider, would be where do the other class communities stand with their suggestions.

[UncleOst]

A thing we've been discussing in our own thread on the forum is the percentage chance for Rampage in Vengeance. Not sure if it was brought up in this thread but a number of us feel the proc rate is too low considering Shatter and Impale both work off of CD's. This means that our down time is up a lot more than other DPS, forcing is into the lowest possible baseline of our DPS if you're unlucky to get no procs. Now, this puts Vengeance Very much at Burst DPS over long periods of time. Think of it like this __________/\_________/\___/\_____ and so on. The Proc's are pure random and it gives us no way to actually try and trigger it again. Unlike The Powertech with Flameburst or the Mercenary with Tracer Missile, we have no GCD to proc our ability as well as we have a lower percentage to do so.

Here are some of the suggestions put forward in the thread to fix this issue.

 

 

• ssfish: for every Impale/Shatter that can proc (ie: after the internal lockout) but doesn't, the next ability gets a 5% increased chance to proc. So, if you go a whole Ravage cycle without a proc, you're looking at a 50-55% chance on the next ability, and 75-80% chance if you make it a full 2 Ravage rotations without a proc
   
   
  
• ssfish: Possibly adding a smaller proc chance for Vicious Slash what has a chance to proc rampage.
   
   
  
• Shadowwhispers: Scrap the internal CD and proc from impale completely, and Give shatter a 33/66/100% chance per point of rampage to reset the CD on ravage. (Excellent suggestion. Meaning Ravage can be procced every 14 seconds)
   
   
  
• Shadowwhispers: A reduction to ravage CD on rampage, of 5/10/15 seconds per point, and leave the rest the same, this would mean if you get a string of unlucky procs, you do not get badly screwed over with downtime on bleeds or ravage trying to work around the natural ravage CD of 30 seconds.
   
   
  
• Metalsaber:
  1.) Leave the 30% proc chance in place but remove the lockout.
  2.) Leave the Lockout but add your crit rating to the 30% rampage proc (usually around 20%). So that would be 50% proc chance while leaving in the lockout.
  

 

Those are the suggestions put forward to fix Rampage. Any Juggernaut who brings Vengeance into End Game Content will know about not proccing for a long period of time. It's a game of luck more than anything else. In my opinion and if I may say, the opinion of others, this is the biggest issue with Vengeance.

 

 

I have something perhaps more appealing and less confusing.

 

RAMPAGE:

 

 

Consumable Version

 

- Lowers the cooldown of ravage by 3 seconds per point and has a 30% chance to proc "Rampage", which may proc from any melee attack. Rampage is a critical rating boost ( 3% per point ). This critical rating increase is for melee only, expires upon the next melee ability of choice and can be consumed at any time within the 10 second activation window. Each proc of Rampage, simply resets until the player chooses to consume the ability, which will expire in 10 seconds if out of combat. There is no cooldown, for all melee attacks have a 30% chance to trigger rampage. Once consumed, the cycle begins again.

 

 

 

Passive Version

 

- Lowers the cooldown of Ravage by 3 seconds per point and has a 30% chance to proc "Rampage", which actively increases melee crit chance by 9% and is applied to the next successful melee strike. Duration of Rampage critical melee buff lasts for 6 seconds when out of combat.

 

As you can see, there is a healthy, more reliable cooldown for ravage, and by placing a modest critical melee increase, the player can spend the "Rampage" proc at his/her desired moments on battle.

 

I think this would be a viable solution to the RNG and provide more consistency in both pvp and pve. Vengeance spec would then have a more reliable ravage, and have access to a consumable melee proc, that they could use with even shatter and impale.

 

By including a reduction on Ravage by 3 seconds per point is a fair trade, for any more than that, would be too overpowered. A maximum critical boost of 9% isn't over the top, but would Definitely assist with Vengeance dps gameplay.

 

 

Unfortunately the developers probably won't be concerned with this, for there is another concern over the ability "Seething Hatred". BUT, let's get back to the drawing board with this Rampage suggestion none-the-less. We can tackle "seething Haterd" after we discuss this new rampage idea.

 

...Comments below please.

Edited August 2, 2013 by UncleOst

[Luckygunslinger]

Not sure if it's just me. That's quite confusing. A lot of info in one paragraph.

 

 

Out of the suggestions listed I personally would like to either see a 15% chance to proc Rampage via Vicious Slash, 14 second reduced cooldown, Shatter has a 100% chance to Proc or a stacking buff over time that increases the chance for it to proc. Changing the base nature of Rampage would throw off a LOT of Juggernauts. I don't think we need anything more than a more reliable proc.

[UncleOst]

Not sure if it's just me. That's quite confusing. A lot of info in one paragraph.

 

 

Out of the suggestions listed I personally would like to either see a 15% chance to proc Rampage via Vicious Slash, 14 second reduced cooldown, Shatter has a 100% chance to Proc or a stacking buff over time that increases the chance for it to proc. Changing the base nature of Rampage would throw off a LOT of Juggernauts. I don't think we need anything more than a more reliable proc.

 

Sorry for that. What I meant was, while you have listed some good points for changes in the vengeance tree, I personally disagree with a couple.

 

In regards to Rampage, you propose a "proc" that increases a "stackable chance-to-proc"... sounds like a croc [err I mean Proc] of sheet.

 

Would it not be easier in all regards to simply reduce the cooldown of Ravage?

 

Secondly, why can't we use "Rampage" as a more usefull and meaningful ability that could apply to all melee attacks?

 

Trust me friend... Juggernauts out there today are skilled and eager for more ways to destroy their enemies lol. They would manage a "rotating Rampage proc" that passively ( or consumably) increases their melee crit chances.

[lMarlfoxl]

I completely agree that vengeance dps needs some sort of revamping with a focus on the rampage talent. However I think we are completely overlooking the fact that Enraged Defense is the bigger problem. The cooldowns for Juggernaut dps are complete trash, vengeance enraged defense is somewhat good however it is still not enough. Rage tree enraged defense is absolute garbage. The cooldown needs to not cost any resource to use, as well as not use resources while active. Instead of a 3% health gain for every 1 second that your taking damage, it needs to be a flat damage mitigation similar to cloak of pain. I think the damage reduction should be around 25%.

[Marb]

Unaware of the necessity for this, but If it were considered, then it may compliment our new mutually progressing version on enraged defence. For it is with this new version that there would be a modest damage reduction while used across the board. I'm still unconvinced of the severity of this topic here. Something else to consider, would be where do the other class communities stand with their suggestions.

 

Its from a the point of view of balancing all the tank classes with each-other to resemble something more like what we had pre-2.0, which was that each tank took damage in different ways and felt different to heal. PT's had (and still have) the most limited cooldown's out of all the tank classes, but they were always solid and steady to heal due to their high passive mitigation and having the highest damage reduction and armor.

 

I admit that this is more of a powertech issue specifically, but overall its a complex problem that involves all the tank classes.

 

For immediate Juggernaut tank concerns:

 

 

• Using chilling a Chilling Scream directly following a force charge should be a GCD free cast, and perhaps a rage free cast (but that overlaps with Thrown Gauntlet).
  
• Sweeping Slash should be cheaper and should hit up to 5 targets in a 360 damage arc instead of a frontal cleave.
  

Edited August 3, 2013 by Marb

[ssfish]

• Sweeping Slash should be cheaper and should hit all enemies in a 360 damage arc instead of a frontal cleave.
  

 

So a zero cooldown, weapon damage Smash with no 5-target cap?

[Marb]

So a zero cooldown, weapon damage Smash with no 5-target cap?

 

I don't mean remove the 5 target cap, it did sound that way. Just altering the effect shape to that of flame sweep. Edited.

 

The reasoning is that we are restricted to 4m more then any tank, yet have an expensive frontal cleave (which is awkward to use on melee mobs with larger hitboxes), with no way of using a snare beyond wasting a GCD. It just feels odd.

Edited August 3, 2013 by Marb

[Shadowhispers]

 

The problem with enraged defense and just removing the threat drop from it means jugg/guardian tanks get another cooldown when they already have arguably the best cooldowns of all the tanks. Right now the threat drop pretty much eliminates 99% of its potential uses in pve. This could really imbalance the tank situation. If it is allowed they need to improve the cooldowns of the other 2 tanks to compensate.

 

Another idea i had was to make enraged defense a 4 rage cost 10% heal with a 2 minute cooldown(no threat drop). For rage and vengeance have talents that remove the rage cost, lower its cooldown back to 45 seconds, increase the heal by 5% and add the 15% damage reduction. With this it is usable by all 3 specs, but they would probably have to do some tweaks on the other 2 tanks to compensate. For immortal it becomes an additional rage dump with a small heal every 2 minutes

 

 

The underlying problem is the threat drop, Every other class has a free threat drop with assassins/operatives the best of all giving 100% threat drop aswell as secondary benifits from stealthing. Having a threat drop tied to another ability that costs resources is crazy. Jugs need a totally separate threat drop equal to the other classes ( chaff flare/countermeasures etc ) on a 45sec CD.

 

If you are worried about ED becoming yet another tank CD, well, it already is in many respects, threat has 0 impact at all in PvP so it can be used without thought, and a decent immortal tank can find uses for it already in PvE especially since u can offset alot of the threat lost with clever use of taunts, even now its the best CD to deal with lightning field damage on Dread Guards NiM, it practically offsets all the dmg except the last hit.

 

Also i think people are over estimating how much it actually heals on a single target boss you are lucky to get 4-5 ticks in the 10sec it lasts, thats only 12-15% health and that is totally relying upon u saving rage for the heal running the risk of letting crushing blow/retaliation buffs dropping off, which are better than a tiny heal, And in an AOE tanking situation, outside of reflect jugs have the weakest mitigation anyway with the lowest shield/absorb so a couple more heal ticks from ED really isnt going to throw the balance out the window.

 

Adding a flat DR across the board is certainly going to make it worse., Vengeance and Rage both have skill points specifically Linked to Enraged Def, THAT is where any DR buffs should be added like vengeance already has.

 

Personally i already like how the heal mechanic works, Even the rage spent per heal is fine, as it is you need to be clever about when and how you use it to get the most out of it, where as adding a flat DR % and a flat heal% to it is just gonna turn it into another "o-****" CD.

 

The one thing i do like though is adding a longer Cooldown on it as Base and using the skill points in Venge/Rage to reduce that back down. i think 2minutes is too long, 90secs the same as Endure Pain as they work very well together.

 

So tbh,

Remove the threat drop completely

Increase base CD to 90secs

Remove the initial rage cost

Keep the rage spent per 3% heal on taking damage with 1sec internal CD.

Add a 22.5/45 second CD per point to "Deafening defense" in Vengeance Tree

Add a 22.5/45 second CD per point to "Through passion" in the Rage tree

 

Now for me, the main question is Do we give "Through passion" the same DR % base as Vengeance, or do people want it to be more unique to the Rage tree, since Vengeance has more DR overall with "unstoppable" ?

 

Someone already proposed a high DR buff with it reducing rapidly over time, i quite like this idea, but i have another one which is abit crazy and would be totally unique to rage:

 

Through Passion - Reduces the active CD of Enraged Defense by 22.5/45 second per point, in addition Enraged Defense Grants 3 stacks of ( insert appropriate buff name ) increasing Damage reduction by 25%, Stacks are consumed when taking Direct damage ( basically not dots ) Lasts 10 seconds

 

Again these are just personal opinions/ideas based on playing experience and looking at the ideas already in this thread.

 

As to the point that this thread is supposedly going off topic, i think the community brain storming, raising ideas and concerns is the best way for the Class Rep to construct his Questions to put to the Devs as and when he does. Just looking over the posts there are already 2 "questions" that are high up there, the 3rd not so clear.

 

My view so far is

Question 1 - Enraged defense: how it works for all 3 classes and the threat drop. Was it designed as a PvP ability with the threat drop for PvE thrown in as an after thought?

Question 2 - Rampage Proc: should it Be as RnG based as it is already? was ravage intended as the Focus of the spec or is it Just a Gimic/Bonus

Question 3. no idea........ Slows? Chilling scream is definately not inline with other class slows in my opinion after the change to make it free/low global not available to all specs, Yes its aoe, yes it has no CD but it costs a global and alot of resource. virtually every class has a passive slow attached to 1 or more abilities.

 

Rage is Fine as it is. it has Oppressor , the most mobile dmg of the specs, and escape from roots with obliterate

 

Vengeance needs a passive slow fixed to one or more of its bleeds, the 15% movement boost to shien form was a good start but still not enough having to rely on chilling scream with is high rage cost Adding a 50% slow to the bleed from impale would work, would last 6seconds and can be applied every ~9seconds, would only ever effect 1 target at a time.

 

Immortal, adding a 6second 30% slow to "Crushing Fist" would be great, PvE tanks dont take ( or shouldnt ) thrown gauntlet so a slow attached to smash without having to waste a global on Chilling scream, which could be used in getting threat. 30% in PvP isnt exactly game breaking and Chilling scream will overwrite it with a more powerful slow, at the cost of a global

[UncleOst]

The underlying problem is the threat drop, Every other class has a free threat drop with assassins/operatives the best of all giving 100% threat drop aswell as secondary benifits from stealthing. Having a threat drop tied to another ability that costs resources is crazy. Jugs need a totally separate threat drop equal to the other classes ( chaff flare/countermeasures etc ) on a 45sec CD.

 

There was a suggestion made for jug threat dumps. The proposed change was to make Our aoe taunt act as a threat dump while in either dps stances. But I agree, there should be an easy solution to this.

If you are worried about ED becoming yet another tank CD, well, it already is in many respects, threat has 0 impact at all in PvP so it can be used without thought, and a decent immortal tank can find uses for it already in PvE especially since u can offset alot of the threat lost with clever use of taunts, even now its the best CD to deal with lightning field damage on Dread Guards NiM, it practically offsets all the dmg except the last hit.

 

I agree. It seems to be a measure of skill and awareness.

 

Also i think people are over estimating how much it actually heals on a single target boss you are lucky to get 4-5 ticks in the 10sec it lasts, thats only 12-15% health and that is totally relying upon u saving rage for the heal running the risk of letting crushing blow/retaliation buffs dropping off, which are better than a tiny heal, And in an AOE tanking situation, outside of reflect jugs have the weakest mitigation anyway with the lowest shield/absorb so a couple more heal ticks from ED really isnt going to throw the balance out the window.

 

Adding a flat DR across the board is certainly going to make it worse., Vengeance and Rage both have skill points specifically Linked to Enraged Def, THAT is where any DR buffs should be added like vengeance already has.

 

I became confused at this point. But you are correct. Any enhanced DR amounts should be feated (within dps trees).

 

Personally i already like how the heal mechanic works, Even the rage spent per heal is fine, as it is you need to be clever about when and how you use it to get the most out of it, where as adding a flat DR % and a flat heal% to it is just gonna turn it into another "o-****" CD.

 

Once again, the proposed DR amount, generically speaking, is a base 2%. Only by applying feat points in the dps trees would there be options for increased DR. Additionally, there would be no available DR increases in the Immortal tree. Open for suggestions, but I proposed a bond between the jug and his guarded target, so that while Enraged Defense was used, both the jug and the recipient of his shield share the speed buff from "Rule of Two".

 

The one thing i do like though is adding a longer Cooldown on it as Base and using the skill points in Venge/Rage to reduce that back down. i think 2minutes is too long, 90secs the same as Endure Pain as they work very well together.

 

Unrequired when viewed from a pvp standpoint. The current 45 second cooldown should remain.

 

snip

 

Now for me, the main question is Do we give "Through passion" the same DR % base as Vengeance, or do people want it to be more unique to the Rage tree, since Vengeance has more DR overall with "unstoppable" ?

 

Keeping it as DR against force attacks is good idea, but I think making it the same as vengeance would better...and easier.

 

Someone already proposed a high DR buff with it reducing rapidly over time, i quite like this idea, but i have another one which is abit crazy and would be totally unique to rage:

 

Through Passion - Reduces the active CD of Enraged Defense by 22.5/45 second per point, in addition Enraged Defense Grants 3 stacks of ( insert appropriate buff name ) increasing Damage reduction by 25%, Stacks are consumed when taking Direct damage ( basically not dots ) Lasts 10 seconds

 

Again these are just personal opinions/ideas based on playing experience and looking at the ideas already in this thread.

 

Is not a bad idea, but requesting for a mirror ability in the fashion of vengeance's current use would eliminate extra programming, and we'd probably achieve success by keeping things simple.

 

As to the point that this thread is supposedly going off topic, i think the community brain storming, raising ideas and concerns is the best way for the Class Rep to construct his Questions to put to the Devs as and when he does. Just looking over the posts there are already 2 "questions" that are high up there, the 3rd not so clear.

 

Snip

 

Rage is Fine as it is. it has Oppressor , the most mobile dmg of the specs, and escape from roots with obliterate

 

I agree

 

Vengeance needs a passive slow fixed to one or more of its bleeds,

 

I disagree. The main reason is, certain targets in pvp have abilities that will supercede this "passive slow" Examples are "force speed" and " Hydralic Overrides". Requesting a passive slow, is fine, but it is not a priority with skilled gameplay. We shouldn't need the game to "slow" our targets down for us. It is the combination of teamwork, and personal skils...You must work to keep on your target.

 

 

 

 

I appreciate your post, very well written and constructive. My responses in red, and I'll add to the "supposed question list"

 

 

1. ENRAGED DEFENSE

 

- base abilities are 2% damage reduction with current heal. Costs 2 rage to initiate. 45 second cooldown. Threat dump...(?)

 

1a. Immortal Tree

- when feated, enraged defense grants "The rule of two" ability to both the jug and his guarded target. This lasts for the full 10 seconds if guarded target remains attacked.

 

1b. Vengeance Tree

- when feated, enraged defense does exactly what it is doing as we speak.

 

1c. Rage tree

- when feated, enraged defense grants an additional 4% DR at all times, and an additional 15% while Enraged defense is active. so basically same as vengeance tree lol.

 

 

2. RAMPAGE

 

- Rampage lowers the cooldown of Ravage by 3 seconds per point and additionally has a 30% chance to proc "rampage", which acts as a 6 second 9% melee crit increase, exhausted on the next successful melee strike.

 

 

 

3..................................."seething hatred"??? "chilling scream"??? anyone???

- maybe we could simply emphasize 2 points, and use the third to charm and congratulate the swtor developer team, on the great job they've done with our class thus far.

 

p.s. I'm not drunk, but I probably should be.

Edited August 3, 2013 by UncleOst

[Luckygunslinger]

2. RAMPAGE

 

- Rampage lowers the cooldown of Ravage by 3 seconds per point and additionally has a 30% chance to proc "rampage", which acts as a 6 second 9% melee crit increase, exhausted on the next successful melee strike.

 

 

 

Change those to 4, 8, 12. (12 since that's the CD on Shatter) and you're on to something.

 

As for Enraged Defense. I can see the side of it being the issue, just personally I have never run into a problem. Looking at it on paper, yes it's a pain that we need to use Resource to use it and it is a defensive cooldown combined with an aggro dump. I just feel as it is, it's fine. What you could do however, is for Rage, rather than give a resource reduction in the cost, also don't have it eat your rage to heal you? So, Vengeance get's a DR and costs more, Rage costs less and doesn't leech off you. You could even go as far as this:

 

Through Passion: Reduces the activation cost of Enraged Defense by [1]/[2]. In addition, all healing dealt by Enraged defense is increased by [1.5%]/[3%] and does not spend Rage while activated.

 

So what's the balance for this you may ask. Vengeance get's a 15% DR during the duration, meaning hits aren't going to cost as much, however, with Vengeance being a beast for consuming rage, you won't be able to utilize max DPS while trying to keep your heals up. Rage will not get a DR, they can go along with their DPS without worrying about their Rage being consumed and are getting healed by 6% each tick of damage. Plus you also get a 3% DR with Shii-cho.

 

In my opinion, BW got it backwards. Rage generation in Vengeance is harder than Rage. The reduction cost should have been in Vengeance as I look at it more. Regardless, that's merely my suggestion. My priority is on Rampage, not Enraged Defense.

 

We're still yet to focus in on suggestions. So, as it stands, we have

 

• Enraged Defense
   
  
• Rampage fixes
   
  
• and...... something else?
  

 

Also, just to ask. 4 Piece Jugg Tank set bonus? Just me or does it suck? I wouldn't mind an Extra 2 seconds of reflect to be honest rather than increased damage taken by Sonic Barrier.

Edited August 3, 2013 by Luckygunslinger

[mrekxxx]

Hey,

 

1. i would like to see Pooled hatred buffed x2, so not 2/4 but 4/8 %

2. when target uses stun during unstopable buff on me i would punish them = proc Ravage takes 1/2 normal time

3. buff vicious throw + 20% for targets under 30% hp

4. add yet + 5% to speed during combat

5. as grp utility, leap on friendly target = unstopable for all friends in range 15m for 5 secs

6 change unstopable, not 4 but 5 secs

 

sry for my english , not native speaker, and gl

[UncleOst]

Change those to 4, 8, 12. (12 since that's the CD on Shatter).

 

Through Passion: Reduces the activation cost of Enraged Defense by [1]/[2]. In addition, all healing dealt by Enraged defense is increased by [1.5%]/[3%] and does not spend Rage while activated.

 

So what's the balance for this you may ask. Vengeance get's a 15% DR during the duration, meaning hits aren't going to cost as much, however, with Vengeance being a beast for consuming rage, you won't be able to utilize max DPS while trying to keep your heals up. Rage will not get a DR, they can go along with their DPS without worrying about their Rage being consumed and are getting healed by 6% each tick of damage. Plus you also get a 3% DR with Shii-cho.

 

:

 

Good points. I think this chance to proc ravage rubbish has gone on long enough. I'd be fine with your suggestion.

 

Increasing self-heals when activating Enraged Defense in Shi-cho, is a great suggestion. It could compliment on the other healing ability "Payback", as a way to provide its own unique groove. Keep in mind the base 2% DR from the "new base ability", that would provide a well rounded ability for the tree (IF it gets approved). Increasing self heals in shi-cho has been mentioned already, however many have displayed approval with simply using an increased flat DR benefit or increased DR for incoming force damage.

[UncleOst]

Hey,

 

1. i would like to see Pooled hatred buffed x2, so not 2/4 but 4/8 %

l

 

Many people would like to see this ability increased or changed as well. The problem is that the developers reduced its original values in effort to "match numbers" on their drawing boards. *shrugs/sighs*

 

I agree, this buff is incredibly situational but against certain attacks, it redeems itself.

 

examples

 

- Force crush

- Force lightning

- Oil slick

- Chilling scream

- Marauder's force charge, combustible gas cylinder, Ion gas cylinder, crippling slash, Prototype flame thrower...list goes on...

 

Point is, that there are many snares applied upon you within a warzone. The timing of when the ability actually reaches potential vs the chances to use it, often won't line up. Simply consider it an additional dps boost, for you will be snared within game a lot.

[Luckygunslinger]

Good points. I think this chance to proc ravage rubbish has gone on long enough. I'd be fine with your suggestion.

 

 

I wouldn't call it rubbish, it's a bigger issue than Enraged Defense.

Edited August 3, 2013 by Luckygunslinger

[UncleOst]

I wouldn't call it rubbish, it's a bigger issue than Enraged Defense.

 

Rubbish in regards to the existing "proc". There is no valid reason why we couldn't simply have a feated reduction for ravage instead. This ability would still be valueable and unique to the vengeance tree.

[Luckygunslinger]

Rubbish in regards to the existing "proc". There is no valid reason why we couldn't simply have a feated reduction for ravage instead. This ability would still be valueable and unique to the vengeance tree.

 

Understood, interpretation over the internet, very bad indeed.

[ssfish]

Just throwing something out there that those of y'all that PvP can shoot down... Why not incorporate Retaliation into the Vengeance mix? Give it some sort of utility in Vengeance - another bleed, chance to proc Destroyer, whatever. Right now, it's just an attack off of the GCD, which is nice, but given its expense, I would think it would be a good place to add on something.

 

Obviously it would be of minimal consequence us PvEers, since we only see Retaliation in specific circumstances

[UncleOst]

Just throwing something out there that those of y'all that PvP can shoot down... Why not incorporate Retaliation into the Vengeance mix? Give it some sort of utility in Vengeance - another bleed, chance to proc Destroyer, whatever. Right now, it's just an attack off of the GCD, which is nice, but given its expense, I would think it would be a good place to add on something.

 

Obviously it would be of minimal consequence us PvEers, since we only see Retaliation in specific circumstances

 

Well that's an exceptional Idea. It would however force us as "dps'ers" to encourage increasing our defence ratings. It would have to be a remarkable ability for someone to switch their gear simply to capitalize on. Only immortal/vengeance hybrids would truly reap rewards from this, for they use retaliation more in their rotations.

 

..unless this new idea you propose would be linked to sabre ward. So... (insert new retaliation ability thing here) provides... (x amount damage/or new ability proc) during the use of sabre ward. LoL sorry that may seem confusing, point I'm getting at is, currently retaliation for me seldom, to never, ever procs unless sabre ward is up.

[ssfish]

Well that's an exceptional Idea. It would however force us as "dps'ers" to encourage increasing our defence ratings. It would have to be a remarkable ability for someone to switch their gear simply to capitalize on. Only immortal/vengeance hybrids would truly reap rewards from this, for they use retaliation more in their rotations.

 

..unless this new idea you propose would be linked to sabre ward. So... (insert new retaliation ability thing here) provides... (x amount damage/or new ability proc) during the use of sabre ward. LoL sorry that may seem confusing, point I'm getting at is, currently retaliation for me seldom, to never, ever procs unless sabre ward is up.

 

I was thinking of it in conjunction with Saber Ward, yes, but not exclusively so like you suggest. The ability just seems, to me, to be wasted at the moment. Immortal gets boons from using it, and Marauders have talents to spec into, but the spec called Vengeance has nothing to improve their counter-attack ability.

[ArenCordial]

I was thinking of it in conjunction with Saber Ward, yes, but not exclusively so like you suggest. The ability just seems, to me, to be wasted at the moment. Immortal gets boons from using it, and Marauders have talents to spec into, but the spec called Vengeance has nothing to improve their counter-attack ability.

 

Oddly enough Djem So (the other side of Shien/Form V) in lore is focused around melee counter attacks so it kinda does fit with the theme. But to really make it worth while it'd need a good number of boosts imo. Like you said it way too pricey and doesn't do much damage. Its only saving grace is it doesn't respect the gcd.

[UncleOst]

I was thinking of it in conjunction with Saber Ward, yes, but not exclusively so like you suggest. The ability just seems, to me, to be wasted at the moment. Immortal gets boons from using it, and Marauders have talents to spec into, but the spec called Vengeance has nothing to improve their counter-attack ability.

 

You're right, it would not be exclusive to sabre ward, just would proc more during it.

 

Man I tell ya, I'm enjoying this, here's what my gut suggests...

 

"Seething Hatred"

 

- Provides existing cooldowns as currently enjoyed in game, and additionally enables "retaliation" the ability to lower your target's accuracy by 5% with each successful hit. This ability can stack with any other accuracy de-buffs that may be applied to said target.

[ArenCordial]

Just posted this over in the Rampage % thread but I figured it might be food for thought here as well:

 

What if Rampage essentially remained the same but Seething Hatred was changed so

 

A.) Vengeance Juggs Ravage channel is accelerated akin to the Marksman Sniper's Series of Shots.

 

B.) Ravage's cooldown is reduced.

 

The idea here is

1.) Veng is less mobility handicapped trying to get all of Ravage off due to the faster channel.

2.) Little more burst and certainly helps in PvP where the backloaded third strike is easily avoidable under the current 3 second channel.

3.) Ravages cooldown is less thus reducing the spec's dependence on rng.

4.) Seething Hatred is actually useful.