Kaggath Tournament - Sol’yc Empire vs Krayt’s Vision

[StarSquirrel]

The KotOR Campaign Guide states numerous times that the forces were very equal and only the Jedi and Revan's tactics decided the war.

 

Anyway, I really do need to sign off, I'll return tomorrow.

 

Alright, I still say that they could reach 900-1000 as the subsequent GGW was waged throughout the galaxy and if fleets got smaller and the mando fleet was equal to the republic's fleet then it stands to reason that the Mandalorian Fleet as of Mando Wars was bigger than the Republic Fleet in swtor.

Edited July 28, 2013 by StarSquirrel

[Beniboybling]

Here is something that bothers me, we are assuming that the Mandalorian fleet was the same size as the Republic fleet and yet we are assuming that said Republic fleet was 1600 vessels strong, yet we never see in any of the Old Sith Wars a fleet of such scale, the fleet Ulic-Qel Droma captures is 300 ships and that was considered a third of the entire Republic Navy, the navy only got thinner and thinner after each war, those 300 ships and the Krath fleet gets decimated at Coruscant, putting the navy down to 600 ships.

 

We can assume that with some certainty the Republic fleet didn't reach about 900 ships again as it is canon that the Republic forces just got smaller and smaller with each war until the Dark Wars where the fleet at Telos IV is considered quite literally the only thing the Republic has left to mount a sufficient defence of the planet.

 

If we are running off the idea that the Mandalorian fleet really was about equal to the Republic, which makes sense as that is said quite a few times in the KotOR CG, then the Mandalorian fleet, being generous, is about 800 ships, if we assume that in-between the Exar Kun War and the Mandalorian Wars (around forty years) that the Republic rebuilt the majority of it's forces.

 

EDIT: It is midnight here and I'm signing off for the night.

Actually the Republic between the Sith War and Mandalorian Wars experienced a Restoration Period in which they rebuilt their military to its former strength. See this page. So we can assume it was as large as it was immediately prior to the onset of the Great Sith War i.e. roughly 900 ships. So I'd say the Mandalorian Navy was equal to that.

 

Still, they are outnumbered by at least 700 ships.

 

P.S. Using Telos IV is not a good example, remembering that during the Jedi Civil War the Republic lost vast swathes of its naval force which were either captured or destroyed by Revan.

[LadyKulvax]

Alright, I still say that they could reach 900-1000 as the subsequent GGW was waged throughout the galaxy and if fleets got smaller and the mando fleet was equal to the republic's fleet then it stands to reason that the Mandalorian Fleet as of Mando Wars was bigger than the Republic Fleet in swtor.

 

Except the Mandalorian Neo-Crusader fleet is totally destroyed at Malachor V, the Mandalorians have to start from scratch with Clan Ordo and at the start of the Mandalorian Wars once Revan, Alek and Surik take over, the Mandalorians lose ships faster than they can replace.

 

Also, if the Republic managed to rebuild their fleet back up to, let's once again be generous and say 800, in the forty years between the Great Sith War(When the Mandalorian fleet is severely damaged) and the Mandalorian Wars then the Mandalorian Fleet must have been 800 ships, we know as a fact that the forces were roughly equal.

 

Again, I really should log-off here, someone will have to take my place till tomorrow.

Edited July 28, 2013 by LadyKulvax

[StarSquirrel]

Actually the Republic between the Sith War and Mandalorian Wars experienced a Restoration Period in which they rebuilt their military to its former strength. See this page. So we can assume it was as large as it was immediately prior to the onset of the Great Sith War i.e. roughly 900 ships. So I'd say the Mandalorian Navy was equal to that.

 

Still, they are outnumbered by at least 700 ships.

 

P.S. Using Telos IV is not a good example, remembering that during the Jedi Civil War the Republic lost vast swathes of its naval force which were either captured or destroyed by Revan.

 

I'll agree to 900 as that was essentially my middle estimate as well.

 

Edit: It's not that I want to have a bigger or badder fleet than you Rayla, I just don't want to get rolfstomped especially when cannon suggests I have a bit more than what you propose. I'm still outnumbered, just not as badly.

Edited July 28, 2013 by StarSquirrel

[marcelo_sdk]

Hmmm, I really don't see much way for the Krayt's Vision to get the win. Every type of war I think of - attrition, stealth, cold - eventually I give the victory to Sol'yc Empire.

 

The only way for KV to win would be a direct assault on the leadership of the SE. In theory, it's possible, but when they find out Jaina Solo and Boba Fett are protecting them, not even Darth Krayt and Darth Talon combined will be able to succeed.

[StarSquirrel]

Hmmm, I really don't see much way for the Krayt's Vision to get the win. Every type of war I think of - attrition, stealth, cold - eventually I give the victory to Sol'yc Empire.

 

The only way for KV to win would be a direct assault on the leadership of the SE. In theory, it's possible, but when they find out Jaina Solo and Boba Fett are protecting them, not even Darth Krayt and Darth Talon combined will be able to succeed.

 

I like having supporters

 

That said please expand, I'd like to see you scenarios, facts, and opinions (sort them as such though). It'd really help me a lot.

[marcelo_sdk]

I like having supporters

 

That said please expand, I'd like to see you scenarios, facts, and opinions (sort them as such though). It'd really help me a lot.

 

I started to writting that 3 hours ago, stopped to see a soccer game and just finished it now. I'll leave for a couple minutes, when I come back I'll write down a scenario.

[Canino]

Except the Mandalorian Neo-Crusader fleet is totally destroyed at Malachor V, the Mandalorians have to start from scratch with Clan Ordo and at the start of the Mandalorian Wars once Revan, Alek and Surik take over, the Mandalorians lose ships faster than they can replace.

 

Also, if the Republic managed to rebuild their fleet back up to, let's once again be generous and say 800, in the forty years between the Great Sith War(When the Mandalorian fleet is severely damaged) and the Mandalorian Wars then the Mandalorian Fleet must have been 800 ships, we know as a fact that the forces were roughly equal.

 

Again, I really should log-off here, someone will have to take my place till tomorrow.

 

I can't do it all night, but we will see what I ca do.

[Beniboybling]

Hmmm, I really don't see much way for the Krayt's Vision to get the win. Every type of war I think of - attrition, stealth, cold - eventually I give the victory to Sol'yc Empire.

 

The only way for KV to win would be a direct assault on the leadership of the SE. In theory, it's possible, but when they find out Jaina Solo and Boba Fett are protecting them, not even Darth Krayt and Darth Talon combined will be able to succeed.

Accept your forgetting that Krayt's Vision is hunkered down within the Deep Core. Think of what kind of defensive capabilities that grants them. Interdiction fleets is just one of many possibilities.

[Canino]

Hmmm, I really don't see much way for the Krayt's Vision to get the win. Every type of war I think of - attrition, stealth, cold - eventually I give the victory to Sol'yc Empire.

 

The only way for KV to win would be a direct assault on the leadership of the SE. In theory, it's possible, but when they find out Jaina Solo and Boba Fett are protecting them, not even Darth Krayt and Darth Talon combined will be able to succeed.

 

I think you are severly underestimating Darth Krayt. He can will you to the brink of death using dark transfer, has enoguh raw power in his lightning to destroy stone, and kill three rakghouls in a single application. He can vaporize stone using telekinesis, and can send very real force illusions into your mind. He can even use force drain, an did so to Abeloth. He can see shatterpoints, and heal himself of mortal wounds. And, this....

 

As the Dark Lord of the One Sith, Darth Krayt was the strongest Sith Lord of his time. His strength in the dark side of the Force was great enough to be felt by every Sith in the galaxy.

 

He battled Cade Skywalker using just the force. If that doesn't say something, than I don't know what will.

 

If he fought Fett and Jaina, they would fall easily. Fett would die first, as Krayt would use lightning and aim at shatterpoints in his armor. Jaina would fall prey to force illusions and dark transfer, followed by lighting. Quick and easy.

[StarSquirrel]

I'd like to point out some abilities of my favorite weapon.

 

During her tutelage under Kyp Durron, Solo learned how to erase and alter memories from her master, which she learned while in the Hapes Cluster.... Solo was a skilled enough lightsaber combatant to personally slay Yuuzhan Vong Warmaster Tsavong Lah even with her legs pinioned... While dueling her brother for the first time, he described her fighting style as conservative, brutal, ruthless, designed to deal damage without suffering any in return.[85] Her considerable skill with a lightsaber was such that in 40 ABY, she was able to slay her twin brother.... Solo was comfortable fighting both in teams or by herself. In an example of the former, she and several other Jedi and their allies broke into a high-security Galactic Alliance prison in 43 ABY. They retrieved the two prisoners they had come for and escaped with minimal casualties on either side, as Solo had no difficulty in deflecting blaster fire from multiple assailants while lobbing stun grenades in return.[90] While on Dromund Kaas, Solo fought and killed three Sith assailants from the Lost Tribe of the Sith without sustaining serious injury to herself.[92] She later slew multiple Sith on Coruscant during the Lost Tribe of Sith resurgence, often despite severe injuries.[93]

Also, during the Yuuzhan Vong War, she and her brothers were able to re-create the Jedi battle meld,[7] focusing a unit of Jedi together into one cohesive group. This ability was vital to the mission to Myrkr[66] and was also used in several other battles as the Solo twins taught other Jedi the ability.[67][76] Another Force technique which Solo had at her disposal was telekinesis.[68][85] Solo could also use the Force to control her breathing[85] and clear toxins from her body[83] and was adept in the use of the mind trick.[72]

 

Solo also learned infiltration techniques, allowing her to evade pursuers on several occasions.[72][86] Her use of deception during the Yuuzhan Vong War sowed considerable consternation into the ranks of the Yuuzhan Vong, such as when she employed gravitic beacons to cause Yuuzhan Vong ships to fire on each other.[15][69] While imitating a Yuuzhan Vong goddess, Solo learned psychological warfare from Wraith Squadron and was able to employ it to good effect in order to direct Yuuzhan Vong war efforts...Durron

 

So, she is a master duelist (Sword of the Jedi anyone?), an expert at many weapons Jedi didn't often use, an expert at multi-opponent combat (while using stun grenades), killed many sith (while injured), an expert at infiltration, and a master of psychological warfare (can mind-wipe on top of this). She was also trained by Luke, Kyp Durron, Mara Jade (an assassin), and even learned from her brother (or Ben, I forget) how to hide her force presence making her deadly in a trap for Talon or Krayt.

 

On top of all this, by the Legacy era she's already skirted the Darkside once and learned to resist it (on her own for the most part I might add). She does have Tenel Ka to support her though. I can't imagine in a million years Jaina doing anything to harm her brother's greatest love.

 

Purely as speculation though and entirely off-topic, imagine Jaina with Vaapad. I think she'd have been able to learn it and master it given time. Her using Vaapad would be sick though and an assured Sith killer.

Edited July 29, 2013 by StarSquirrel

[Canino]

We also have Darth Talon, who is very powerful, indeed. She was able to defeat two Jedi simultaneously, and would have easily killed Master Sazan if not for Princess Fel. Her use of Ataru was powerful as well. She was also proficient in force concealment, and could was extremely strong in force lightning, able to kill Elke Vetter with it. She could also sense Darth Krayt's life force, and freed him from stasis with lightning.

[Canino]

I'd like to point out some abilities of my favorite weapon.

 

 

 

So, she is a master duelist (Sword of the Jedi anyone?), an expert at many weapons Jedi didn't often use, an expert at multi-opponent combat (while using stun grenades), killed many sith (while injured), an expert at infiltration, and a master of psychological warfare (can mind-wipe on top of this). She was also trained by Luke, Kyp Durron, Mara Jade (an assassin), and even learned from her brother (or Ben, I forget) how to hide her force presence making her deadly in a trap for Talon or Krayt.

 

On top of all this, by the Legacy era she's already skirted the Darkside once and learned to resist it (on her own for the most part I might add). She does have Tenel Ka to support her though. I can't imagine in a million years Jaina doing anything to harm her brother's greatest love.

 

Purely as speculation though and entirely off-topic, imagine Jaina with Vaapad. I think she'd have been able to learn it and master it given time. Her using Vaapad would be sick though and an assured Sith killer.

 

Jaina won't have much time to really use her saber once Krayt begins fighting her. He was able to use dark transfer on Cade during battle and very, very quickly. He knew the ability as well, and was still unable to resist it. If she fights Krayt, she will die. She may be able to spring a trap on him, however, he will kill her in the battle. I doubt a trap will occur. He has an acute sense of sense, and could sense Cade Skywalker healing his master from across the galaxy.

 

In a lightsaber battle, Krayt is a master of Jar'Kai. He even deafeted Aurra Sing with it, as a Padawan. He has mastered Force Rage, allowing him to be even deadlier in battle.

 

I have to sign off, it is storming really, really badly here, and I don't want my computer to be fried. See you tomorrow!

Edited July 29, 2013 by Canino

[StarSquirrel]

I think you are severly underestimating Darth Krayt. He can will you to the brink of death using dark transfer, has enoguh raw power in his lightning to destroy stone, and kill three rakghouls in a single application. He can vaporize stone using telekinesis, and can send very real force illusions into your mind. He can even use force drain, an did so to Abeloth. He can see shatterpoints, and heal himself of mortal wounds. And, this....

 

 

 

He battled Cade Skywalker using just the force. If that doesn't say something, than I don't know what will.

 

If he fought Fett and Jaina, they would fall easily. Fett would die first, as Krayt would use lightning and aim at shatterpoints in his armor. Jaina would fall prey to force illusions and dark transfer, followed by lighting. Quick and easy.

 

No, just no... If I can't have Jacen there is no freakin way someone that could actually do that (without weakness) should be allowed. But gladly this is not the case.

 

Krayt has a habit of obsession and that translates into his fighting. Remember,

He was also able to fight the much younger and fitter Cade Skywalker as a superior, and almost defeated him before being shot in the back by Cade's mother.

All Jaina and Boba need is a good HK-50 in that position while he is busy with Jaina. Also, Jaina is hardly weak compared to Krayt. She bested Jacen, who was easily one of the most Force-powerful Sith ever by blocking his force powers and driving him into a saber battle she was able to win (though he was distracted during the finishing blow, yes). She also had insane focus stemming from her Mando training. Augmented by the force she'd never fall to Krayt's illusions (like she avoided Jacen's btw). On top of this, there are no accounts of him being able to sense droids that I know of.

 

Also please bring Krayt into line with his actual abilities.

His strength in the dark side was such that he could fight Cade Skywalker, who was armed with a lightsaber, with mostly his usage of the Force alone.

Re-read the Wookieepedia article and you'll see he had flaws, weaknesses, and ya'll are greatly exaggerating his abilities. Please use cannon more than opinions.

 

Edit: a few things to add. Firstly, force-concealment would give Jaina the advantage of surprise, Krayt could sense people using the force across half the galaxy (A powerful and unique ability that would be rather distinct at that) meaning he essentially had the eyesight good enough to see a lighthouse before the rest of the crew, but can he see the rocks in the shadows?

 

I read the article on Dark Transfer and it appears to only be usable to save. Krayt never tried to kill Cade with it. Safe to say the best he could do with it is torture her. Heck this very ability lead to his death (indirectly yes but still). Probably bad example for you to use.

 

Plus, Jaina has experience facing and using force-lighting so I doubt that force lighting will pose much of a threat.

 

Edited July 29, 2013 by StarSquirrel

[StarSquirrel]

We also have Darth Talon, who is very powerful, indeed. She was able to defeat two Jedi simultaneously, and would have easily killed Master Sazan if not for Princess Fel. Her use of Ataru was powerful as well. She was also proficient in force concealment, and could was extremely strong in force lightning, able to kill Elke Vetter with it. She could also sense Darth Krayt's life force, and freed him from stasis with lightning.

 

She was good, but again you're underestimating my counters. She was likely on par with someone like Maul. She was known for her martial skills and was an excellent duelist for sure. But Jaina was an expert at defense while inflicting damage. That is what one needs to do to beat someone like Talon. While Talon wears herself out Jaina just pokes and makes risky attacks hurt Talon more. Talon will get tired/hurt and Jaina will finish her.

 

Also, I know less of her than Krayt but I don't recall her having fantastic force senses, or even detecting droids. On top of this, I'd like to see her int he forests of Myrkr with HK-50's on her ***.

Edited July 29, 2013 by StarSquirrel

[marcelo_sdk]

Jaina is stronger than Krayt, there's no discussion about that. Boba Fett could easily deal with Darth Talon, if not killing her, holding her enough to Jaina defeat Krayt.

 

About Beni's argument regarding KV planets. You are right, but SE was, too, very concentrated in the Mandalorian Cluster, which is far more easy to defend than the Deep Core. Almost all hyperspace lanes will lead to one of KV planets. And Byss, well, if KV puts too much defense on it, it'll lose in numbers to SE eassily. The reinforcements would arrive slowly, as a great fleet would not be able to travel at once through the Deep Core.

 

In my scenario, I think KV will throw the assault on SE's leadership. As a KV decoy fleet rages battle above Esseles, Darth Krayt, accompained by Darth Talon (in a shuttle) and a detachment of the 501st (around 50 soldiers, in a transport ship) will lead a direct assault on SE's leaders. As the 501st members open the way through the surprised troops stationed on Esseles, Krayt and Talon march towards their final targets. At the governing building door, they are blocked by Jaina Solo Fel and Boba Fett.

 

Fett attacks the 501st with the Mandalorian Protectors in a tough fight. Jaina is able to hold Krayt and Talon combined attack, but she starts to lose ground. With the situation controlled, Fett races towards Jaina, drawing Darth Talon's attention. Jaina, know face to face with Krayt, unleashes all his skills on the Sith Lord. When Krayt's defeat is imminent, Jaina notices Talon has subdued Fett. She races toward his former teacher, and together, they kill Darth Talon. Krayt is able to run away, but KV loses it's best weapon in a stealth war.

[StarSquirrel]

Jaina is stronger than Krayt, there's no discussion about that. Boba Fett could easily deal with Darth Talon, if not killing her, holding her enough to Jaina defeat Krayt.

 

About Beni's argument regarding KV planets. You are right, but SE was, too, very concentrated in the Mandalorian Cluster, which is far more easy to defend than the Deep Core. Almost all hyperspace lanes will lead to one of KV planets. And Byss, well, if KV puts too much defense on it, it'll lose in numbers to SE eassily. The reinforcements would arrive slowly, as a great fleet would not be able to travel at once through the Deep Core.

 

In my scenario, I think KV will throw the assault on SE's leadership. As a KV decoy fleet rages battle above Esseles, Darth Krayt, accompained by Darth Talon (in a shuttle) and a detachment of the 501st (around 50 soldiers, in a transport ship) will lead a direct assault on SE's leaders. As the 501st members open the way through the surprised troops stationed on Esseles, Krayt and Talon march towards their final targets. At the governing building door, they are blocked by Jaina Solo Fel and Boba Fett.

 

Fett attacks the 501st with the Mandalorian Protectors in a tough fight. Jaina is able to hold Krayt and Talon combined attack, but she starts to lose ground. With the situation controlled, Fett races towards Jaina, drawing Darth Talon's attention. Jaina, know face to face with Krayt, unleashes all his skills on the Sith Lord. When Krayt's defeat is imminent, Jaina notices Talon has subdued Fett. She races toward his former teacher, and together, they kill Darth Talon. Krayt is able to run away, but KV loses it's best weapon in a stealth war.

 

Nice starting points, my thoughts...

 

Well there is a question as to Solo vs Krayt, Krayt probably is Jaina's better in the force. However Jaina can counter this and bring Krayt to a saber duel where his weaker and older body will cause him trouble.

 

Boba couldn't easily deal with Talon as she is a master fighter, but he could occupy her for a bit especially with HK-50's or other mandos to back him up.

 

I like Marcelo's pointing out of the field of battle. The Core restricts KV's numbers advantage just as was argued in AE vs AoW. Nek is the master of Core hit-and-run/traps and he would rip KV a new one. I also control the Hydian Way right into the Core so I have a way in with Esseles serving as my jumping-off point.

 

I also agree that if an attempt is made to kill Tenel Ka, Krayt will want to be there to declare himself the victor (as he did when supplanting the Fel Empire).

 

I'd prefer this to take place on Myrkr if at all possible but that is up for debate.

[marcelo_sdk]

Nice starting points, my thoughts...

 

Well there is a question as to Solo vs Krayt, Krayt probably is Jaina's better in the force. However Jaina can counter this and bring Krayt to a saber duel where his weaker and older body will cause him trouble.

 

Boba couldn't easily deal with Talon as she is a master fighter, but he could occupy her for a bit especially with HK-50's or other mandos to back him up.

 

I like Marcelo's pointing out of the field of battle. The Core restricts KV's numbers advantage just as was argued in AE vs AoW. Nek is the master of Core hit-and-run/traps and he would rip KV a new one. I also control the Hydian Way right into the Core so I have a way in with Esseles serving as my jumping-off point.

 

I also agree that if an attempt is made to kill Tenel Ka, Krayt will want to be there to declare himself the victor (as he did when supplanting the Fel Empire).

 

I'd prefer this to take place on Myrkr if at all possible but that is up for debate.

 

That's exactly my toughts, he is more powerful than Jaina, but not enough to defeat her only using the Force. And when lightsabers are ignited, the advantage goes to Jaina.

 

Yeah, I exaggerated with easily, bad choice of words. But he is capable of holding her for some time.

 

About the battle's place, I just assumed your leader would be on the capital world.

[Canino]

No, just no... If I can't have Jacen there is no freakin way someone that could actually do that (without weakness) should be allowed. But gladly this is not the case.

 

Krayt has a habit of obsession and that translates into his fighting. Remember,

All Jaina and Boba need is a good HK-50 in that position while he is busy with Jaina. Also, Jaina is hardly weak compared to Krayt. She bested Jacen, who was easily one of the most Force-powerful Sith ever by blocking his force powers and driving him into a saber battle she was able to win (though he was distracted during the finishing blow, yes). She also had insane focus stemming from her Mando training. Augmented by the force she'd never fall to Krayt's illusions (like she avoided Jacen's btw). On top of this, there are no accounts of him being able to sense droids that I know of.

 

Also please bring Krayt into line with his actual abilities.

 

Re-read the Wookieepedia article and you'll see he had flaws, weaknesses, and ya'll are greatly exaggerating his abilities. Please use cannon more than opinions.

 

Edit: a few things to add. Firstly, force-concealment would give Jaina the advantage of surprise, Krayt could sense people using the force across half the galaxy (A powerful and unique ability that would be rather distinct at that) meaning he essentially had the eyesight good enough to see a lighthouse before the rest of the crew, but can he see the rocks in the shadows?

 

I read the article on Dark Transfer and it appears to only be usable to save. Krayt never tried to kill Cade with it. Safe to say the best he could do with it is torture her. Heck this very ability lead to his death (indirectly yes but still). Probably bad example for you to use.

 

Plus, Jaina has experience facing and using force-lighting so I doubt that force lighting will pose much of a threat.

 

 

These aren't my opinions, they are fact.

 

In addition to being a formidable lightsaber duelist, Darth Krayt was also talented in the other applications of the Force, notably Force lightning. The raw power of his Force Lightning was enough to crumble some of the stone columns of the Sith Temple and kill multiple rakghouls with a single burst. His prowess with Force Lightning rivaled that of Darth Wyyrlok, evidenced when the two launched their individual torrents in their duel without gaining an advantage over the other.

The Dark Lord also possessed considerable skill in telekinesis, such as when he redirected multiple stones thrown at him by Darth Wyyrlok and when he easily disciplined Darth Nihl in the Valley of the Dark Lords. His strength in telekinesis was such that he could practically vaporize some of the stone pillars of the Sith Temple during his final duel with Cade Skywalker.

Darth Krayt was skilled in the use of Force Illusions, such as when he projected an illusion of Cade's possible future into the young Skywalker's mind, which shook Cade a great deal.

He was also proficient in the use of Force drain, which he used in his battle against Abeloth.

His strength in the dark side was such that he could fight Cade Skywalker, who was armed with a lightsaber, with mostly his usage of the Force alone.

Before turning to the dark side, A'Sharad Hett was trained to use Force healing, though the extent of his healing abilities is unknown. However, after the Battle of Had Abbadon, Darth Krayt was finally able to completely heal himself of his Yuuzhan Vong growths as well as what would normally be severe mortal wounds, demonstrating that his skill in Force Healing had greatly increased.

Darth Krayt could also use Dark Transfer to injure or kill such as when he attempted to kill Cade Skywalker during their final duel, much like how Cade himself used his Dark Transfer. Cade Skywalker claimed that Krayt's proficiency with Dark Transfer advanced to the degree in which he would heal himself even from death itself. In addition to learning Dark Transfer from his near-death experience, Krayt revealed that he could see shatterpoints in the world around him. After his final death, Krayt claimed that he learned the dangerous art of essence transfer.

As the Dark Lord of the One Sith, Darth Krayt was the strongest Sith Lord of his time. His strength in the dark side of the Force was great enough to be felt by every Sith in the galaxy.

He also demonstrated a certain degree of resistance towards Mind Tricks, such as when he tricked Darth Wyyrlok into believing he was being affected by his mental powers.

Krayt also had a very acute Force sense, demonstrated when he sensed Cade Skywalker healing his Master during the Massacre of Ossus half-way across the galaxy and when he sensed the presence of a spy within the Imperial ranks.

The Dark Lord also appeared to have an affinity with the use of telepathy, such as when he communicated with Darth Talon to release him from stasis on Korriban.

 

One does not merely rule the galaxy without being powerful.

 

And with a saber-

 

A'Sharad Hett was exceptionally skilled in the Jar'Kai style of fighting. This talent was evident throughout the Clone Wars, in which A'Sharad served as a General, often leading his soldiers from the front through the thickest of the fighting. A'Sharad often wielded two green lightsabers in battle, his own weapon, and that of his father. He was able to defeat Aurra Sing in a lightsaber duel while he was still a Padawan; an impressive feat, considering his own father, a fully trained Jedi Knight, had been unable to defeat Sing. It should be noted however that his power was augmented by the hatred he felt towards Sing for murdering his father. This indicates that A'Sharad Hett had discovered a basic understanding of Force rage, allowing him to boost his ferocity and best Aurra Sing. However, as Darth Krayt, Hett was able to fully master and focus his usage of Force Rage such as when he dueled Cade Skywalker and Darth Wyyrlok.

t was his mastery of Jar'Kai that saved A'Sharad from being killed during Order 66, allowing him to kill the clone troopers who were sent to execute him. After turning to the dark side, but before becoming a Sith Lord, Hett engaged the extremely powerful Jedi Master Obi-Wan Kenobi in a lightsaber duel and proved capable of holding his own against Kenobi but was eventually defeated.

If he can hold his own against the soresu master he can handle Jaina.

A master practitioner of Niman, his skill with his blades was great enough for him to quickly defeat four Imperial Knights with little difficulty, despite his advanced age and failing health.

He was also able to fight the much younger and fitter Cade Skywalker as a superior, and almost defeated him before being shot in the back by Cade's mother.

he Dark Lord was able to hold his own against Karness Muur, who was one of the founding members of the Sith Order and claimed to have easily killed other Sith Lords who were stronger than Krayt.

In his final duel with Cade Skywalker, Darth Krayt proved to be equally proficient with a single lightsaber as he was with two.

During this rematch, Krayt proved to be capable of combining his prowess with his lightsaber with his skill with the Force, making him even more formidable in combat.

 

He is powerful, make no mistake.

 

Now I'm officially signing off.

[Warren-Stride]

I read the article on Dark Transfer and it appears to only be usable to save. Krayt never tried to kill Cade with it. Safe to say the best he could do with it is torture her. Heck this very ability lead to his death (indirectly yes but still). Probably bad example for you to use.

 

For anyone who said that Dark Transfer is a sure-fire way to kill Jaina, you haven't read up on Krayt's bio enough.

 

Krayt used Dark Transfer on Cade. But it didn't kill him. Instead, Krayt tried to turn Cade. Just as he will Jaina. If he didn't try to turn Jaina, there would be something wrong with him, and such an inaction would be out of character.

 

The thing is, last time he tried to turn someone by using Dark Transfer, they resisted the temptation of the Dark Side and killed him while he was off-guard. This situation could easily happen again, seeing as Jaina has already come back from the Dark Side once.

 

Or the SE could just do this the easy way and blow him to bits in space.

[Warren-Stride]

If he can hold his own against the soresu master he can handle Jaina.

 

That's not truly that impressive, Soresu is a defensive form. "Holding you own" against Obi-wan is basically just the ability to keep hacking away without actually doing anything. And Obi-wan won.

[StarSquirrel]

These aren't my opinions, they are fact.

 

One does not merely rule the galaxy without being powerful.

 

And with a saber-

 

If he can hold his own against the soresu master he can handle Jaina.

 

He is powerful, make no mistake.

 

Now I'm officially signing off.

 

Yes I had in-fact read that entire article before I even sat down to write my first post regarding your descriptions about Krayt.

 

My point is you exaggerated how proficient and how effective his abilities where (especially concerning Jaina).

 

I never said he couldn't do any of this, I told you the way you phrased things to make him seem unbeatable (which he is far from.) If you took a second you'd see all my quotes where from the exact same section of the exact same page.

 

Also can we clear something up? There are 4 distinct versions of Krayt that all have different personalities and strengths. Hett (CW) Jedi General, Hett (Imperial) ex-Jedi rage consumed exiled sand person creating a new sith order, Krayt (Legacy) fragile but powerful Sith leader obsessed with immortality, Krayt (Reborn) powerful force user and less mentally fragile though still physically weak. All have distinct mindsets and some of the earlier versions lack certain abilities. I'd like to know which one we're dealing with here.

 

Now Hett was good with a saber, but when the Vong screwed with him he lost his physicality and ceased growing in saber prowess. Hett fought completely differently than Krayt (and still lost to Obi-wan), after the meltdown his mind was shattered and he had to pull himself back together and turned out totally different. Compared to Jaina who was constantly training and fighting almost her entire life with a saber in hand. There is a reason she is the Sword of the Jedi. She'd top most Jedi of even the PT era in a duel. Btw Hett lost against a Soresu master (lost his arm and his pride too), 'holding his own' (and probably dying) doesn't impress me when you claimed he could own Jaina. Heck Jaina was accustomed to fighting many Sith while injured so anything he did hit her with early probably wouldn't slow her down.

 

If we also remember Boba (beskar armor) vs Jaina, he can kick the stuffing out of cocky force user which Talon most certainly will be. Yeah it was training but after a few blows she very nearly wanted to kill him (and fought like it), he fights dirty to get the job done so we can assume he'll have surprises for Talon if he needs to.

 

I make no mistake btw. I know he is powerful and accept it with open arms. Jaina would relish the challenge. I also made abundantly clear earlier that she'd likely have help from hidden or delayed HK-50 units that could pull a Cade's Mother and shoot Krayt in the back. I'm not betting everything on Jaina's ability to kill Krayt. I don't assume one character is more powerful till I've heard good reasoned arguments for or against that character.

 

Also, Krayt died and revived himself once I think we can call that a unique case and just agree that kind of power is why people like Jacen, Sidious, Durge and Abeloth aren't allowed.

[tunewalker]

Honostly Agreeing with star squirl on the whole Jaina Vs Krayt thing, she is surely able to kill him. The question is the fleet thing, so my thoughts.

 

 

The KV clearly has the numbers and some good tactitians but all of their tactitians are vunerable to hit and run tactics that SE know how to use, further more the SE ships are designed to facilitate this tactic with hit and run hard missle attacks which the KV ships have little to no defense against. Do to this I see most fleet battles ending in a 2:1 odds in Favor of the SE their ships facilitate the tactics they use and the KV ships and tactititans are highly vunerable to it, but the KV's greater numbers thus allowing to bring more damage to bear when things stick around means they aren't completely destroyed. (the 2:1 odd is an overall estimation this number will start out much lower at the beginning and will be much higher towards the end when the numbers advantage is lost).

 

Ground fights seem to me heavily in KV's favor their numbers advantage i believe out does the quality of the fighters the SE are bringing since the KV fighters are not shabby by any stretch of the word, the SE is best keeping with the Hit and run mind Set and using their ground forces for running defense and stealth assassination missions never staying in one place long enough to truly engage.

 

Of course in terms of assassination I so feel the SE have an advantage they have some extremely skilled, stealthy and powerful people to pull it off with, and just the right resources to prevent one on their leader.

 

 

These are just my thoughts for now and right now I am seeing an SE victory.

Edited July 29, 2013 by tunewalker

[LadyKulvax]

Also Krayt is being severely underestimated as far as duelling capabilities he was a master Jar'Kai practitioner as well as a master Niman practitioner.... of over 150 years practice.

 

Whilst Jaina is definitely one of the best of her time she relies heavily on stealth techniques and needed them to efficiently engage a totally distracted and disinterested Ceadus. N

 

Not only that but when Caedus tried to facilitate communications between his own Order and the One SIth, he could already feel just how powerful Darth Krayt was and he never even truly met him, this was the 'Dark Man' that Caedus had seen in his visions, the one man he was so afraid of that entire time and practically the main reason he carried on down the path of the Dark Side after Lumiya's death.

 

He has defeated and held his own against countless enemies and his Shatterpoint ability is far far better than her's, he seems them all around him.

 

He can also create illusions to distract her as well as easily sense where she is, as Krayt did when Talon was in hiding using force concealment herself.

 

Also, let's not forget he can use telekinetic waves and powerful Sith Lightning in the midst of Lightsaber duels.

 

And then there is of course his Dark Transfer which he can use to either turn her to the Dark Side, which shouldn't be difficult as she has always not been too far away from it, just due to the amounts of times she's been close to the Dark Side she has eventually learnt a powerful black variant of Force Lightning, which by the way she had two minds to use on her own brother to finish the job.

 

If anyone had actually read the novel you would know it did take others to bring her back to the Light, including communication from her Uncle, she is not suddenly immune to the lure of the Dark Side.

Edited July 29, 2013 by LadyKulvax

[tunewalker]

Noticing a pattern here, any side involving me or Aurbere, everyone jumps to the opposite team, but whatevs.

 

Also Krayt is being severely underestimated as far as duelling capabilities he was a master Jar'Kai practitioner as well as a master Niman practitioner.... of over 150 years practice.

 

Whilst Jaina is definitely one of the best of her time she relies heavily on stealth techniques and needed them to efficiently engage a totally distracted and disinterested Ceadus. N

 

Not only that but when Caedus tried to facilitate communications between his own Order and the One SIth, he could already feel just how powerful Darth Krayt was and he never even truly met him, this was the 'Dark Man' that Caedus had seen in his visions, the one man he was so afraid of that entire time and practically the main reason he carried on down the path of the Dark Side after Lumiya's death.

 

He has defeated and held his own against countless enemies and his Shatterpoint ability is far far better than her's, he seems them all around him.

 

He can also create illusions to distract her as well as easily sense where she is, as Krayt did when Talon was in hiding using force concealment herself.

 

Also, let's not forget he can use telekinetic waves and powerful Sith Lightning in the midst of Lightsaber duels.

 

And then there is of course his Dark Transfer which he can use to either turn her to the Dark Side, which shouldn't be difficult as she has always not been too far away from it, just due to the amounts of times she's been close to the Dark Side she has eventually learnt a powerful black variant of Force Lightning, which by the way she had two minds to use on her own brother to finish the job.

 

If anyone had actually read the novel you would know it did take others to bring her back to the Light, including communication from her Uncle, she is not suddenly immune to the lure of the Dark Side.

 

Tenel Ka is a life long friend of hers if any one would be able to do it, she would. Just a thought on that, going to let others make their decisions on the rest.