Gear VS Bolster arguement

[KimbeFett]

Well, you bother to make the folks that like gear progression happy. What is important is that gear would provide a small Expertise boost that is stable, unmoving based on wins or losses. The bonus, however, would not be huge.

 

Why bother make them happy?

 

Actually correction; you can make them happy but I would do it by giving them awesome skins for their armor. If you reach certain points in the ladder you get access to different skins to show off how awesome you are; sort of like WoW's Challenge Mode armor they released last expansion. It shouldn't affect PvP however. PvP is PLAYER vs PLAYER, take gear out of the picture, SKILL vs SKILL not Gear VS Gear

[LordArtemis]

Why bother make them happy?

 

Actually correction; you can make them happy but I would do it by giving them awesome skins for their armor. If you reach certain points in the ladder you get access to different skins to show off how awesome you are; sort of like WoW's Challenge Mode armor they released last expansion. It shouldn't affect PvP however. PvP is PLAYER vs PLAYER, take gear out of the picture, SKILL vs SKILL not Gear VS Gear

 

I like that idea, but I think it would not make traditional hardcore players happy. Grant it, at this stage they are likely a minority, but I think a small measure of gear progression and the small boost it provides would be at least something for those folks that like to tweak every angle to get the best performance.

 

The VAST majority of your Expertise level would come from your valor rank, unless you are bolstered. With vanilla stats only you would be FORCED to rely on your skill to win battles.

 

Not to mention the idea that losing your life or a match would REDUCE your valor would have a huge impact, IMO, on the entire PVP side of the game.

[KimbeFett]

I like that idea, but I think it would not make traditional hardcore players happy. Grant it, at this stage they are likely a minority, but I think a small measure of gear progression and the small boost it provides would be at least something for those folks that like to tweak every angle to get the best performance.

 

The VAST majority of your Expertise level would come from your valor rank, unless you are bolstered. With vanilla stats only you would be FORCED to rely on your skill to win battles.

 

Not to mention the idea that losing your life or a match would REDUCE your valor would have a huge impact, IMO, on the entire PVP side of the game.

 

See you are still stuck giving an advantage to people; "Expertise from Valor" Why? Who cares? Don't create a divide!

 

100% Skill based means someone new; just hit 55, should be in equal footing.

 

Think about it like this, super star Tennis player; just freaking amazing, came out of nowhere. He can win Wimbledon; there is no barrier to entry, there is no Super Tennis Racket he has to earn from playing matches somewhere else? I mean; wouldn't that be ludicrous?

 

I also disagree about hardcore people not being happy; the people who won't be happy are the gear farmers.

 

Hardcore PvPers only care about skill.

Semicore PvPers that don't have the skill care about Gear so that they have a chance to win

[Andryah]

Gear should be meaningless in PvP. The deciding factor in a player verse player battle should be skill. Not class. Not gear. Not level. Skill. This isn't PvE we're talking about. This is PvP.

 

I agree with this.

 

It would be an interesting experiment on the part of an MMO developer (I really could care less which one, or which MMO) to install PvP with two rule sets:

 

1) Gear has meaning..and the better your gear the better your advantage

2) Gear has no meaning.. and you all enter with a generic set automatically.

 

Then let the players choose..run analytics for a few months.....determine what the analytics say... and then shoot the loosing rule set in the head, publish the results in an open white paper on the internet, and be done with this constant PvP about PvP-gear/no-PvP-gear battle between the PvPers.

 

By the way, my money is on rule set #2 surviving the research. Not just because I agree with it, but because it actually follows the spirit of real Player VS Player. If you want Gear VS Gear.. go play World of Tanks.

 

Rule set #2 also has the practical advantage of doing away with the need to constantly design and advance PvP gear as the MMO continues to evolve. Those resources could be applied to other aspects of PvP.. like more actual PvP content.

Edited July 18, 2013 by Andryah

[hadoken]

By the way, my money is on rule set #2 surviving the research. Not just because I agree with it, but because it actually follows the spirit of real Player VS Player. If you want Gear VS Gear.. go play World of Tanks.

 

I think that's a bit of fantasy on your part in hoping your opinion of what is fun would be what attracts the majority of players to the event.

 

While the people partaking in the 'gear has no meaning' PVP scenario would almost certainly be enjoying the PVP more (as it attracts only the die hard "I love pvp" crowd) overall there will be less people playing. Whether that's a good or bad thing depends on how long you're willing to wait on queues, server size, etc.

 

There's a certain subset of the population (as evidenced in this very thread) that expect and/or prefer the gear grind as part of their PVP game. You'd be eliminating them, or assuming they'd convert (which is not one you should make for your argument).

[Andryah]

I think that's a bit of fantasy on your part in hoping your opinion of what is fun would be what attracts the majority of players to the event.

 

NO.. that is my opinion.

 

I am completely willing to let the research project land where it falls.

[Andryah]

There's a certain subset of the population (as evidenced in this very thread) that expect and/or prefer the gear grind as part of their PVP game. You'd be eliminating them, or assuming they'd convert (which is not one you should make for your argument).

 

Actually... I encourage them to PvP in a game where gear is king and the MMO is a PvP MMO. ---------> like EVE

 

There are two different paradigms in MMOs. PvE-with some PvP and PvP-with some PvE.

 

PvE-with some PvP MMO: make PvP gear independent.

 

PvP-with some PvE MMO: make PvP gear dependent

 

It's pragmatic, it's practical, and both paradigms are served.. albeit by different MMO properties. NO MMO can be all things to all people.

Edited July 18, 2013 by Andryah

[hadoken]

Actually... I encourage them to PvP in a game where gear is king and the MMO is a PvP MMO. ---------> like EVE

 

There are two different paradigms in MMOs. PvE-with some PvP and PvP-with some PvE.

 

PvE-with some PvP MMO: make PvP gear independent.

 

PvP-with some PvE MMO: make PvP gear dependent

 

It's pragmatic, it's practical, and both paradigms are served.. albeit by different MMO properties. NO MMO can be all things to all people.

 

True, but I'm sure you can see why BioWare wouldn't leap at the chance to tell players not to play their game

[KimbeFett]

I think that's a bit of fantasy on your part in hoping your opinion of what is fun would be what attracts the majority of players to the event.

 

While the people partaking in the 'gear has no meaning' PVP scenario would almost certainly be enjoying the PVP more (as it attracts only the die hard "I love pvp" crowd) overall there will be less people playing. Whether that's a good or bad thing depends on how long you're willing to wait on queues, server size, etc.

 

There's a certain subset of the population (as evidenced in this very thread) that expect and/or prefer the gear grind as part of their PVP game. You'd be eliminating them, or assuming they'd convert (which is not one you should make for your argument).

 

I agree with you that we eliminate a huge segment of the population by making gear meaningless; but really they aren't playing PvP they are playing PGear vs PGear; hell maybe they should add that as a type of gameplay!

 

Or they could strive to be better; strive to win on the merits of their skill!

Edited July 18, 2013 by KimbeFett

[KimbeFett]

True, but I'm sure you can see why BioWare wouldn't leap at the chance to tell players not to play their game

 

I actually think that the Bolster system hits the absolute largest population.

 

I think there are 3 populations

 

Hardcore PvP - Skill Matters

SemiCore PvP - Gear Matters

Casual PvP - Prefers Bolster because frankly has no time to farm gear.

 

Bolster makes Hardcores and Casuals happy at the expense of the Semicore. Casual is the biggest portion of the pie and hardcore/semicore are likely both meaningless beside them in numbers.

[Andryah]

I actually think that the Bolster system hits the absolute largest population.

 

I think there are 3 populations

 

Hardcore PvP - Skill Matters

SemiCore PvP - Gear Matters

Casual PvP - Prefers Bolster because frankly has no time to farm gear.

 

Bolster makes Hardcores and Casuals happy at the expense of the Semicore. Casual is the biggest portion of the pie and hardcore/semicore are likely both meaningless beside them in numbers.

 

I think your assessment has good merit, at least in the context of this particular MMO. I had not thought about the "SemiCore before, and it makes a lot of sense. Actually it makes a lot of sense in the context of the disgruntled faction of the PvP player base too. The HardCore are tough and play for play sake... any player, anywhere, anytime. Casuals are ...... well casual about it. It's that middle demographic that is not sure of it identity in PvP and is more needy in terms of developer attention I think.

Edited July 18, 2013 by Andryah

[Martinjwest]

Easy way to settle the argument - make all gear cosmetic only.

 

Want to pve then fine you get bolstered stats to make your character the right sort of level for the encounter. Then it all comes down to execution and skill.

This would be same as pvp.

Now those that say pve is all about getting better gear so you can do harder challenges is alot of bullcrap. The reason you want to do pve is to get better stats on gear so you can go in again and have an easier time beating the bosses. No other reason. So if you had a bolster so it was always a challenge similar to what WOW did with challenge modes then you would have a better experience and the dungeons/raids would last longer.

[Andryah]

Easy way to settle the argument - make all gear cosmetic only.

 

Well.. this is TSWs approach. While I enjoy TSW.. I find their approach to gear/stats less then satisfying. Maybe I'm just too "old school" to fully appreciate it. It's functional, but less then satisfying.

Edited July 18, 2013 by Andryah

[frankiejo]

Anyone who says gear shouldn't matter in PVP is clearly new to MMOS.

 

Progression is key.

 

Not all players are equal. nor should they be. This is a modern day entitlement problem young people have. everything has to be "fair". They are brought up getting medals for participation and told they are all winners.

 

 

This is where I stopped reading.

 

It has nothing to do with that, it's simply that more people prefer an even-field for more skill based pvp. How about the sense of entitlement that just because you have more time to commit to a game you think you're entitled to a huge advantage in pvp?

 

This isn't a democracy, but if it were you still wouldn't get what you want.

 

They should remove it in ranked though.

[AlienEyeTX]

This is where I stopped reading.

 

It has nothing to do with that, it's simply that more people prefer an even-field for more skill based pvp. How about the sense of entitlement that just because you have more time to commit to a game you think you're entitled to a huge advantage in pvp?

 

This isn't a democracy, but if it were you still wouldn't get what you want.

 

They should remove it in ranked though.

 

If people want an even playing field, they can strip off their gear and use basic weapons. Everyone has that option.

 

Yes, those who spend more time on something do (probably) deserve an advantage over people who have not put in the same amount of time. Everyone has the same opportunity, it just may take some people longer to get there. When I started playing this game, it took me 7 months to get to lvl 50. Should I have been able to get there instantly just because I don't have as much time to spend in game as someone who can make 50 in a week?

[NogueiraA]

Anyone who says gear shouldn't matter in PVP is clearly new to MMOS.

 

Progression is key.

 

Not all players are equal. nor should they be. This is a modern day entitlement problem young people have. everything has to be "fair". They are brought up getting medals for participation and told they are all winners.

 

That is not how life works. Nor is it how PVP should work. Some people WILL be better geared then you. In which case...you learn to out play them, or die. Dying in this game has no meaning...so its not that big of a deal. Anyone who has played older MMO's that actually had real progression...also had to deal with perma death or having gear and money looted on death. This MMO is already easy mode.

 

 

Arguing that you can not choose your challenge level in PVP is not a valid arguement. Its PLAYER vs PLAYER. Players are unpredictable. thats the apeal. MORE risk, MORE challenge.

 

Maybe its super easy cause you are facing a bunch of weak derps. But maybe you go against a skilled team who knows there class. Eitherway...its part of the risk involved. Even playing fields are for FPS games. Not progression based games. Anyone who says otherwise has entitlement issues and wants skill handed to them.

 

Sorry buttercup, but thats not how life or pvp works. You will die, you will lose, and you will be stronger for it. Things should not be even for everyone. If you work harder, you get better gear. If you have better gear and you still suck...you will STILL die. So its not unfair or over powered. Saying its unfair is just a whiny excuse. In EVERY other MMO that has real progression and PVP. a skilled player will still kill a geared player if he knows how.

 

If that kind of challenge is to scary for someone...go back to PVE. Where programmed mobs can be learned and predicted for easy replay value. PVP is supposed to be unpredictable and hard....

 

You're that guy who loves to farm 1 year for the best gear and 1 shot the new players.

You're that guy level 55 ganking low level players and you feel that you're the best player in the galaxy!

[KimbeFett]

If people want an even playing field, they can strip off their gear and use basic weapons. Everyone has that option.

 

Yes, those who spend more time on something do (probably) deserve an advantage over people who have not put in the same amount of time. Everyone has the same opportunity, it just may take some people longer to get there. When I started playing this game, it took me 7 months to get to lvl 50. Should I have been able to get there instantly just because I don't have as much time to spend in game as someone who can make 50 in a week?

 

It has nothing to do with leveling or time commitment to level; Using that comparison it actually sounds like you want to play in the low-level bracket at whatever level you are not bolstered to 55.

 

PVP is Player vs Player not Player vs Gear; The advantage you get from playing more PVP is being better AT IT, knowing the RIGHT thing to do at the RIGHT time. Not just being able to smash people but smashing your face on the keyboard because you had the time to get the gear.

 

Skill and experience beats Gear

[KimbeFett]

You're that guy who loves to farm 1 year for the best gear and 1 shot the new players.

You're that guy level 55 ganking low level players and you feel that you're the best player in the galaxy!

 

Exactly; they are the Semi-core player who can't beat the skilled PVPers unless they get an advantage

[Tezeretz]

I agree with many points people are bringing up. Skill plays a big part in PVP. i'm not saying someone with better gear DESERVES to win. Far from it.

 

Gear shouldn't give you THAT much of an advantage. and in most cases...it wont. Someone like me, who plays ALL classes...and know all the strengths and weakness of each class, will always out perform someone who only plays one, then rages when he can't figure out why another class has an edge on his class.

 

 

But...the one truth...the one point i cant comprimise on remains.

 

PVP needs to be progressive. Several of you suggested it should be 100% even playing field, and gear shouldn't matter. Skill should.

 

 

That is flawed. it can't work in a game that has several classes. Some classes out do other classes etc. gear is the variable. The one thing people seem to forget when balancing a game from a design standpoint...is that classes are essentially Rock,paper, scissors in nature. One class is better at different things then others. and in some cases...might always get an edge on one particular class. But on the same hand...even though he murders one class...will always loose to a different class.

 

It might rage the "entitlement crowd" who think they should have a fair shot against everyone. but that is not how class balance in most game works. that is why its a TEAM game. people need to work together to win. Not whine, and expect the devs to bolster them so they can "IWIN" anyone.

 

 

Furthermore...if we all were the same....why would people PVP after a few rounds. it would get boring and repetitive and the game would die. PVP-wise anyway. I'm sure the PVE'er would still be fine. But really...there needs to be some reason to PVP.

[Ottoattack]

I'm curious as to how you imagine people with 2k damage and 12k hp and 0 expertise to learn to play their class effectively when they're going against people with 10k damage and 35k hp and 2000~ expertise.

 

I am really curious, how did you manage to get to level 55 with 12K hp...

 

I do agree about the progression part. This is an MMO and a part of the fun is watching your toons grow. Progression is key for keeping players invested in the game. Without progression, the main emphasis of the player base will switch to more content and the devs can never produce enough content to satisfy the players. Progression, can keep the players busy for extended content of time with little to no additional content.

 

While the other route of no PvP gear and set stats is also a valid option, the hybrid solution BW used, the bolster, did not succeed in taking PvP in any direction not to mention exploits and bugs (which still persist till today).

 

Pre-expansion, only people that complained about gear are the under skilled ones, using gear as the excuse. The problem still persists today, they complain about pre-mades or smashers, but saying that bolster evened out the play field is far from being correct, because while gear matters, its the skill that determines how effective you are in WZs.

[KimbeFett]

Furthermore...if we all were the same....why would people PVP after a few rounds. it would get boring and repetitive and the game would die. PVP-wise anyway. I'm sure the PVE'er would still be fine. But really...there needs to be some reason to PVP.

Why would it be boring and repetitive? Skill is the determining factor; different groups of people with varying levels of skill make it so that every match is different.

 

In terms of Progression; why wouldn't progression up a ladder system be satisfying? Likely because w/o the gear grind edge you'll be stuck at the bottom.

[ObiJuanShenobi]

Gear should be meaningless in PvP. The deciding factor in a player verse player battle should be skill. Not class. Not gear. Not level. Skill. This isn't PvE we're talking about. This is PvP.

 

This. In fact, we should be forced to fight naked.

[HoloTweed]

But...the one truth...the one point i cant comprimise on remains.

 

PVP needs to be progressive. Several of you suggested it should be 100% even playing field, and gear shouldn't matter. Skill should.

 

That is flawed. it can't work in a game that has several classes. Some classes out do other classes etc. gear is the variable.

 

But you're wrong. GEAR isn't the variable in class balance. POWERS are the variable. What powers with what strengths, DOTs, AOEs, energy required, range ability, Crowd Control, mobility, speed, etc. GEAR doesn't even enter into that! That's where your argument fails totally.

[CommanderKeeva]

One class is better at different things then others. and in some cases...might always get an edge on one particular class. But on the same hand...even though he murders one class...will always loose to a different class.

 

Unless you roll a Sniper....then you just murder everything.

[Pagy]

OK...the forums are livid with people disappointed in the lack of PVP updates in the "PVP update".

While i agree with them, and the fact that PVP is largely ignored despite the large demand for it. This thread is NOT about either or not PVP needs more attention or not.

 

 

Instead, i want to discuss the most common argument i see in those types of threads.

People state that bolster was intended to balance pvp so that gear wasn't all that mattered etc.

While others argue that it makes things unbalanced.

 

 

My opinion:

Gear should be all that matters in PVP. This is a progression based game. those who invest more time into it, should be rewarded as such. Lemme ask the PVE'ers this. Do you take newly max lvl tanks into raids? or do you require them to know the fights and be geared? Same applies to PVP. someone who has pvp'd more, grinded more....died more...should eventually have better gear. If that player is bad...gear wont save him. he'll still die if he can't play his class. BUT...if he knows what he is doing...he SHOULD have an edge. He earned it.

 

Its no different then the best tanks, or healers having better gear and getting raid priority. ALL MMO'S are progression based. Thats the lasting appeal to them. Work for what you want, get rewarded.

 

Games like COD all have base stats and the playing field is all even across the board etc. And those games get replaced by new versions every 6 months because they get dry and boring fast. This is NOT a game feature that works in MMO's. Even FPS games are realizing players want to be rewarded for there effort. More and more games now have unlocks and upgrades to advance your characters.

 

As it stands...bolster makes PVP kinda pointless. If you just wanna smack around other players for a bit, great. But if you want to get better, or earn anything...then PVP fails at that.

 

I fixed or reworked version of bolster might be ok for pre-55. since pre-55 is a large talent game between characters. lvl 30s have far less then a lvl 54. But at 55, all players have there skills and talents worked out. Gear and class knowledge should be what sets people apart. Bolster should NOT exists in 55 pvp.

there needs to be a way of letting new 55s queue for warzones and not get oneshot

 

have to allow greater commendation limits or something...otherwise no one will queue at 55 when they get to the cap.