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The REAL Most Powerful Sith

Beniboybling

By Beniboybling
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S_W_LeGenD

S_W_LeGenD

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Beni,

 

This debate has just begun; my response to member (LadyKulvax) is just a starter. Do not consider it as a final response (of mine) from which you can easily draw conclusions. I will address your responses tomorrow.

 

"Everything is proceeding as I have foreseen." (Darth Sidious) :cool:

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Aurbere

Aurbere

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Beni,

 

This debate has just begun; my response to member (LadyKulvax) is just a starter. Do not consider it as a final response (of mine) from which you can easily draw conclusions. I will address your responses tomorrow.

 

"Everything is proceeding as I have foreseen." (Darth Sidious) :cool:

 

I'm sure we're all shaking in out boots. :rolleyes:

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marcelo_sdk

marcelo_sdk

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I still think Tyranus is more powerful than Traya. If we compare their powers, I think Tyranus has displayed more power. Traya dominated more "unnusual" skills, and more impressive. But the ones both displayed, Tyranus surpasses her in almost everything. Edited by marcelo_sdk
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xxwolfbloodxx

xxwolfbloodxx

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I agree with S_WLeGenD the sith Emperor should be above Caedus. I don't know how anyone can read LeGends post and not agree. Also should not post ROTJ Eu be put into the same category that the op put the Ancient sith that is we do not have enough info because Disney has said that they are going to change the post ROTJ eu.
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Aurbere

Aurbere

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I agree with S_WLeGenD the sith Emperor should be above Caedus. I don't know how anyone can read LeGends post and not agree. Also should not post ROTJ Eu be put into the same category that the op put the Ancient sith that is we do not have enough info because Disney has said that they are going to change the post ROTJ eu.

 

I read his post. I disagreed.

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S_W_LeGenD

S_W_LeGenD

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Yes she means Luke Skywalker. Anyone who understands the basic concept of the Chosen One (a being purely born of the Force) will understand that unlocking the full potential of the Chosen One is going to make you ridiculously powerful - powerful enough to move black holes.

I fully understand the concept of the Chosen One.

 

Your point of moving black holes is misleading:

 

You realize what kind of a black hole Luke Skywalker managed to influence? It was a (micro) black hole, artificially created by Dovin Basal creatures who served The Vong. Basal creatures would often create these (micro) black holes to protect Vong ships from enemy fire.

 

 

Luke sank back into the chair and closed his eyes. He took a deep breath and reached out through the Force. He let his sense of things ride above the frayed ones' jagged profile and vectored in toward the vehicle. He got no solid sense of it directly, though a few frayed ones did appear to be housed inside. Instead he used that emptiness as a way point to search out a void, and as it formed, the black hole blossomed fully in the Force.

 

The void that the vehicle's dovin basals created to intercept the missiles was a gravitic anomaly that had substance in the real world. Tiny threads of the Force leaked into it as insects and birds, bats and bugs were pulled into it. Luke used their vanishing life traces and the very currents in the air that the void created to define the void. He traced its edges, knew exactly where it was, and knew how powerful it was.

 

He opened himself to the Force more fully than he had in years. He sought more power than he had when freeing his nephew. The Force flooded into him, at once molten-metal hot, yet as soothing as a cool rain. It swirled through him, filling every cell of his body, freeing him from fatigue, sharpening his mind.

 

Luke reached out with that power and latched onto the void that the Yuuzhan Vong vehicle had created. He pushed a bit, then tugged, in nanoseconds getting a feel for the power the dovin basals were able to exert to control the void. He almost smiled, since that amount of power was nothing compared to the Force, but he stopped himself short of pride in that fact.

 

"Artoo, juke the missiles."

 

R2-D2 keened sharply and fed the proton torpedoes a new set of data. The torpedoes twisted in flight and arced toward the sky, flying up and over the void. Then they turned again and fell toward the ground, aimed at the

vehicle's spine.

 

Immediately the dovin basals started to shift the void to cover this new attack vector. Luke fed the Force into his hold on the void, thwarting them. Their pressure increased, and still Luke held it unmoving. The torpedoes got closer and closer. The dovin basals pulled harder, and when their effort reached a new peak, Luke let the void slip over toward intercepting the proton torpedoes.

 

The dovin basals devoted their efforts to sliding the void into place, which required both some lateral movement and shortening the arc over which the void would travel. As they brought it close to the vehicle, Luke pushed with the Force. Since the dovin basals were already tugging the void back toward the vehicle, they were not prepared to have the travel accelerated.

 

The void crashed into the vehicle, striking it in midspine. The long vehicle bent backward as both ends became sucked into the black hole. It flowed like thick liquid, all the sharp horns and bony plates becoming fluid as they curved up over the void's event horizon. In less than an eye blink the vehicle had been consumed by the void, leaving a huge gap in the Yuuzhan Vong formation. (Star Wars: Dark Tide: Onslaught)

 

 

Luke had to compete with the Dovin Basals for the control of the artificially created (micro) black hole and he succeeded because Dovin Basals could not match the power of a strong Force-user; still the struggle continued but it led to collision of the void and the vessel.

 

Also, Luke ended-up utterly exhausted after the feat revealed in aforementioned spoiler:

 

 

Luke stared at the Caamasi for a moment, trying to reply, but a wave of exhaustion crested over him and eroded his ability to think. He shook his head, then slumped back in the chair. The Force energy he had used to help the Yuuzhan Vong destroy themselves had drained out of him completely, leaving him limp and barely able to keep his eyes open.

 

 

Contrasting natural black holes from artificial ones:-

 

You realize how big and powerful natural black holes are? They can utterly destroy whole planets; heck, they can utterly destroy whole stars; heck, they can utterly destroy anything in their path.

 

The black hole at the center of the Milky Way galaxy is 4 million times bigger then SUN (star). Its power is impossible to comprehend. An object needs to be many lightyear distance away from it to be safe from its pull.

 

You think that an artificially created (micro) black hole holds a candle to a natural one? Ridiculous.

 

---

 

Another point is that Force-users can push boundaries with full concentration. Luke fully focused on performing the impressive action (revealed in spoiler above) but he was pushed to his limits in doing so. Some other Force-users come to my mind who also performed impressive actions with full concentration:

 

 

  • Galen Marek (Influenced the movement of an Imperial Star Destroyer; a gigantic cruiser more then 1600m long.)
     
  • Bastilla Shan (Turned the tide of a war in favor of the Republic in a span of minutes by influencing both the Republic and Sith forces on the whole; this event came to be known as the battle of Rakata Prime.)
     
  • Tenebrae (Influenced one of the most potent forms of dark side power whose sheer coverage exceeded that of planetary mass, vaporized all life-forms in its path and left a planet as a void in the Force, to complete his first transformation.)

 

I'm guessing that was your attempt to 'rip her arguments apart with little effort' consider me unimpressed.

OP haven't responded to my arguments; you expanded on her arguments instead and I have addressed them accordingly in return. Continue to read below.

 

You are obviously lacking in knowledge on the battle meld, to quote Wookieepedia: "Obi-Wan Kenobi warned that Force Meld took a Master of great power and depth in the Force to create a single entity state without killing or destroying the minds of everyone involved." Being the nucleus of a battle meld is a considerable display of force power. Taking control of the minds of 17 Jedi (and that was before becoming Caedus) is incredibly impressive.

Fair enough! However, you think that only Caedeus fits the description of "master of great power and depth in the Force"?

 

Vitiate wielded superior telepathic capabilities then Caedus. Your revelation reveals that Caedus was capable of taking charge of the Force Meld led force; highest number that he controlled is 17 via this talent. In contrast, Caedus doesn't needs Force Meld talent to accomplish same or better; he could simply break the minds of his targets and transform them in to his pawns.

 

More information below:-

 

Unparalleled telepathic capabilities?

 

It is believed that mind tricks work on weak minds! Wrong! Tenebrae have broken (mentally dominated) many powerful individuals:

 

Lord Dramath (first known prominent victim)

 

 

Lord Dramath intended to judge the child’s power to determine if he was worthy of serving the Sith Lord, or if he should simply be executed. But Tenebrae had no intention of serving—or of dying. When they met face-to-face, Tenebrae proved the stronger. Only ten years old, he stripped his father of his power and his mind. (SWTOR: Revan)

 

 

Revan and Malak (Iconic Jedi heroes turned in to puppets)

 

 

Over 300 years ago, the great Jedi heroes Revan and Malak stumbled upon long-hidden Sith Empire's capital of Dromund Kaas, and its ruler - a mysterious, almost godlike avatar of the dark side. They argued briefly over whether to alert the Republic and Jedi Council, but Revan was already too consumed by arrogance and anger to consider the possibility of defeat. By the time Revan and Malak approached the Emperor in his throne room, they were already at the precipice of the dark side. It took only a fraction of the Emperor's loathsome power to complete their fall. The Jedi succumbed utterly to the Sith leader's domination and returned to the Republic to spark a new conflict: the Jedi Civil War. (SWTORE, Page 89)

 

 

Tenebrae could break even the strongest Jedi:

 

 

The Sith Emperor has mastered the dark side's power to become the most dominating Force-user the galaxy has ever seen. His corrupting influence is so complete that none can stand in his presence without succumbing to fear, anger and hatred. The Emperor can wither and ruin even the strongest Jedi's connection to the light side.

 

Jedi Master Tol Braga's strike team was not the first group to succumb to the Sith leader's oppressive influence. Hundreds of years ago, the Jedi Revan and Malak discovered Dromund Kaas and confronted the Emperor. They fell to the dark side and returned to Republic space as Sith Lords. Since then, dozens more Jedi have followed the same path into evil. (SWTOR: Codex Entry)

 

 

Many Jedi succumbed to Tenebrae's telepathic powers:

 

 

The Jedi dispatched scouts and spies to learn as much as they could about this new enemy and its enigmatic leader. However, the Sith Emperor was a master of subterfuge and misdirection, continually thwarting all efforts to uncover his dark secrets.

 

Most Jedi who ventured into Imperial space vanished without a trace, but a few managed to send back disturbing messages to their Masters. These fragmented communiques showed the Emperor's Jedi pursuers descending into fear, madness, and evil when faced with his power. It quickly became clear the Sith Emperor was more then a brilliant military strategist and cunning political leader. He was a living embodiment of the dark side of the Force who delighted in destroying the minds and spirits of those Jedi who came too close to him. (SWTORE, Page 88)

 

 

Tenebrae's telepathic capabilities had galactic reach:

 

Tenebrae simultaneously controlled large number of individuals across the span of the galaxy with his telepathic abilities. These pawns ranged from soldiers to powerful Jedi:

 

 

By drawing on his incredible dark powers, the Emperor imprinted his consciousness onto unwitting pawns who would serve as vessels for carrying out his will. Through the eyes and ears of these "children," he would uncover threats in both the Empire and Republic while they were still nothing but whispers. And should the need arise, the Emperor could seize control of his children and instruct them to crush any plot that dared defy his will. (SWTORE, Page 161)

 

For the rest of their lives, these unwitting pawns would serve as the eyes and ears of the Emperor. And should he desire their action, the Emperor could reach out and control them to enact his will. Thus the Children of the Emperor were born.

 

The Jedi remained blind to the Emperor's children due to the presence of the First Son, the being who was first imprinted with the Emperor's power. While the First Son lived, the Emperor's secret army remained hidden and undetectable beneath the Republic's nose. By the time of the Great War, hundreds of the Emperor's Children were embedded within the Republic. Devoted Jedi, loyal soldiers and influential politicians all unknowingly served as the Emperor's spies and, when the Emperor willed it, acted to tear down the Republic they held so dear. (SWTORE, Page 163)

 

 

 

The Sith Emperor seeks to shape all things to his will. His Children, individuals infused with part of his being, have been scattered throughout the Republic, knowingly–or unknowingly–manipulating events to the Emperor's advantage over the years. Above them all is the First Son of the Emperor, a master strategist placed within the Jedi Council itself. Cloaked in the identity of Master Syo Bakarn, the First Son has been hiding the Children from the Jedi for decades, playing a long game with the Republic. His actions suggest a man possessing remarkable patience, ruthlessness and power. However, as Sophia Farash claimed, Master Syo has been unaware of the First Son’s existence–suggesting he and the First Son are two separate personas. (SWTOR: Codex Entry)

 

---

 

In addition, their are two accounts of how Vitiate influenced Sith Lords on Medriaas. One is Nyriss's account:

 

 

And the Sith Lords were driven by fear. Many thought the Jedi would soon wipe them all out. They were desperate for anything they could use as a weapon against the servants of the light side. Lord Vitiate played upon these fears, convincing those who answered his call to set aside their suspicions of him and of one another to join in a single glorious cause. Once they arrived on Nathema, they quickly fell under Lord Vitiate’s control. He dominated their minds, crushed their resistance. He turned them into slaves to his will, forcing them to participate in the most complex ritual of Sith sorcery ever attempted. Calling on the dark side, Lord Vitiate devoured them. He fed on their power, absorbing it into himself, utterly obliterating all traces of his victims. (Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan)

 

 

---

 

Vitiate, in general, have superior feats/accomplishments then Caedus; his feat on Mediraas is superior to anything Caedus have ever done. In addition, Vitiate's feat of purging entire Dark Council is also superior to anything Caedus have ever done. Heck, after his transformation, he was capable of pulling off Nathema like feat single-handedly (evidence for this possibility have been provided below). He lasted over a 1000 years (in a Sith Empire) due to some solid reasons.

 

Clearly, Caedus is outclassed.

 

We are not assessing how useful the ability is in a combat situation. Nevertheless you couldn't be more wrong. Caedus used his incredible abilities in healing to endure having his armed lopped off and a hole punched through his abdomen, in both situations he kept fighting with seemingly no detriment to his ability. His healing abilities vastly outperform Revan's. Unprecedented is probably the word your looking for.

Here:

 

 

The healing properties of the Force were powerful, but Revan’s wounds were severe and he needed more time to restore his strength.

 

 

Revan was severely burned by one of the Vitiate's powers but the healing abilities of the former individual were so good that he recovered in a span of a minute and stood up again, ready to fight (no external medication was required). In real life, both forms of bodily harm; (a) burns (b) and amputation; can be lethal to life forms; burns are painful and dangerous in their own way.

 

Your claim: "His healing abilities vastly outperform Revan" is questionable. Did Caedus reconstruct his body parts that he lost or something? Caedus packed great tolerance for sure but so did Revan who endured tremendously long durations of torture and exposure to harmful substances.

 

In addition, I recall that UnuThul also kept fighting Luke after loosing an arm. So Caedus isn't exclusive in this aspect.

 

Heck, here is a winner:

 

 

Darth Sion's body had been torn apart and knitted back together into a patchwork of mutilated flesh. This left him in eternal pain, his broken body held together only his hatred and power of the dark side. Sion was exceedingly difficult to kill, because his mastery over his own body lent him supernatural vitality. (Star Wars: The Complete Encyclopedia)

 

 

By the way, how does this talent supports your assumption of Caedus being (supposedly) stronger then Vitiate? Care to elaborate?

 

Again incorrect, this is not a hyperbole. To quote the New Essential Chronology he "briefly transformed into the most powerful manifestation of the Force on record."

These are story-oriented events or plot-devices. Can Jacen do so at will? If no, then it is useless to highlight this feat. Whether Jacen transformed into the most powerful manifestation of the Force on record or not at this point, is open to debate in the light of latest updates to the canon.

 

And Luke never achieved Oneness against Abeloth as far as I'm aware, but yes, good point, Luke managing to take on a GOD only reinforces him immense power and in relation, Caedus'.

Here is evidence:-

 

 

Luke pulled, trying to open a little space so he could gain his feet and fight, and they both began to rise. Abeloth pulled in the opposite direction, and they dropped back to the floor. Luke opened himself more fully to the Force, using his love for Ben and his lost wife and the entire Jedi Order to draw it into him. The foul miasma of dark side energy, still swirling into Abeloth, seeped into him, filling him with greasy nausea. But the light side rushed in, flowing in from all sides, pouring through him like fire. A golden glow began to rise from his skin—cells literally bursting with the power of the Force—and Luke felt them both start upward again. Abeloth countered, hissing in anger, and they hovered a hand span above the floor.

 

 

Luke reached oneness condition but Abeloth was so powerful that she suppressed even such level of power. Also, Luke couldn't defeat Abeloth on his own; Abeloth could kill him easily but wasted opportunities:

 

 

WHEN LUKE AWAKENED, HE WAS STILL UPRIGHT, STILL WHEEZING, AND still locked in Abeloth’s grasp. Taalon stood a couple of meters away, on the adjacent side of the sunken stage. At his feet lay Ben, caught in a crackling net of Force energy and writhing in pain. Behind him stood Vestara, looking exhausted, battered, and—to Luke’s surprise—more than a little frightened and sad. Even Gavar Khai had been brought to the edge of the pit, though he remained unconscious and moaning in his Fallanassi-induced nightmares.

 

“You are weak because you have not been feeding,” Abeloth was saying to Taalon. “Mortals need to feed, do they not?”

 

“Of course.” There was impatience in Taalon’s reply, but even more, there was fear. “But I haven’t been able to keep food down since I fell into the Pool of Knowledge. Its water must have been poisonous.”

 

“And your healers cannot find the toxin?”

 

Taalon shook his head. “They’ve run every test known to us.”

 

As they spoke, Luke’s eyes were sweeping the area, searching for some way to escape that did not involve using the Force to spray them all with magma. But he was also listening, because if he and Ben survived—and he was determined they would—anything Abeloth told Taalon about what he was becoming might be a clue to destroying her.

 

When Abeloth did not reply, Taalon continued, “They’ve found nothing.”

 

“Why do you think that is?” Abeloth asked. “You have bathed in the Pool of Knowledge, my child. Is it that you remain truly ignorant of the answer?

 

Or that you are afraid to know it?”

 

Taalon’s brow furrowed, and a look of comprehension and horror slowly came to his eyes. “I … I …” He looked over at Abeloth, his lavender face now so pale it was almost alabaster, then asked, “How?”

 

The tentacle around Luke’s throat tightened, and his vision began to narrow again.

 

“First, your promise,” Abeloth said. “Luke betrayed us, and for that, he must pay.”

 

“As you wish,” Taalon said.

 

The High Lord glanced down at Ben, still writhing at his feet. The Force net began to contract, and Ben’s eyes widened in surprise. For a moment, he seemed more confused by what was happening than alarmed by it. Then his flesh began to bulge between strands, and his surprise changed to fear as it dawned on him that the net was just going to keep contracting, that the thin lines of energy would soon start cutting into his flesh and slowly … painfully … chop him into tiny squares of meat and bone.

 

Luke could not bear the thought of Ben dying such a horrid and anguished death, but he knew he had very little chance of preventing it. The instant he tried to call on the Force, Abeloth would tighten her tentacle again, and he would drop into darkness. The cold tide of despair began to rise inside him, threatening to engulf him, and he felt a shudder of delight ripple through Abeloth’s tentacles. She was feeding on his fear, just as she was feeding on the fear of the plague-stricken Pydyrians—using it to fuel her dark side power, to heal the terrible wounds she had suffered when Luke killed the other two bodies.

 

Thin lines of blood began to appear as the strands bit into Ben’s flesh. The first hint of pain appeared in his expression, but he made a point of catching Luke’s eye.

 

“Don’t … worry.” He spoke through clenched teeth, obviously fighting to keep his voice from breaking. “I have a … plan.”

 

The statement was so ludicrous and unexpected that Luke would have burst out laughing … had he not been sick with fear. Still, he did not show his terror to Ben—he did not want that to be the last thing his son ever saw. So he rasped a few words past the pain in his throat. “I hope it’s a good one.” (Star Wars: Fate of the Jedi: Vortex)

 

 

After reading the above spoiler, any reader would just wonder that why the hell Abeloth is not killing Luke and Ben...unfortunately, this an example of PIS (Plot-induced stupidity) to keep Luke alive against overwhelming odds. Their is no other method. The justification of Abeloth not trying to kill Ben and Vestara either is that she wanted to transform them in to The Son and The Daughter.

 

The more the story of Luke is dragged on, the more it declines in quality.

 

Tutanimis is a basic ability learned by all Jedi, however it is how one uses it that is important. Only by being more powerful than your attacker can you use tutanimis against the full might of their Force attacks successively. - so obviously Revan didn't succeed - bear that in mind.

All Jedi certainly learn Tutaminis but few manage to master it. Revan and Satele have best feats with this talent thus far. Corran, Dooku and Yoda also have decent feats with this talent.

 

 

Called "Sith lightning," these charges cause excruciating pain and weaken life, and it is a challenge for even the most powerful Jedi Masters to deflect such bursts. (Star Wars: The Ultimate Visual Guide)

 

 

Also, Vitiate didn't unleash his full might on Revan; we have evidence of Vitiate being capable of being more potent, should the need arise for him.

 

Now remember Caedus deflected attacks from Luke Skywalker himself - reinforcing the fact he was close to the power of the Chosen One.

What kind of attacks of Luke he shrugged off? Force powers or lightsaber strikes?

 

If we consider Force powers:-

 

 

  • I recall that Luke once put Caedus on a choke-hold but the latter couldn't free himself from the grip of the former.
     
  • In the actual fight between the two, Luke and Caedus exchanged blows but Caedus wasn't able to block a single Force-based attack of Luke. Caedus used the environment to his advantage to hurt Luke; he also physically hit a spot of Luke where the latter was injured in a previous fight. In a contest of Force powers, Caedus doesn't stands a chance against Luke under fair circumstances.

 

If we consider lightsaber strikes:-

 

Managing to duel Luke with a lightsaber shouldn't be a problem for a powerful Force-user. Lumiya (who is not even close to Caedus in power) managed to fight Luke in this manner.

 

I'm guessing you are not aware that Vong are naturally resistant/immune to Force-based attacks.

To a certain level. If some Force powers were able to work on them then this suggests that Vong are not absolutely resistant to Force-based attacks. (Common sense)

 

That said you are guilty of fabrication here, Vitiate hasn't reduced any Jedi to ash as far as we are aware.

Vitiate would have reduced Revan to ash, if T3-M4 had not interfered? Why you keep forgetting this? Vitiate can reduce majority of Force-users to ash, should he desire. (Common sense)

 

So Revan is more powerful than Luke Skywalker now? Lol. No Force user as far as I'm aware has been able to cloak himself from view to the point of removing himself from the the Force itself. Also Revan was only able to sense the Force presence of those he had a connection with, which is by no means an ability exclusive to him.

Revan is among the most powerful Force-users in the entirety of mythos. My point is that Revan had extraordinary Force-sense abilities. And no, Revan didn't need any "connection" to sense the presence of another Force-user; this is asinine assumption. Any kind of "connection" between Revan and Meetra was broken after the latter became a Wound in the Force; Revan once augmented his Force-sense abilities to galactic scale to find Meetra but he couldn't due to the Wound in the Force factor. The "connection" part would have helped Revan identify Meetra from thousands of other Force-users lurking in different planets.

 

That's as maybe, but all this is showing is that even in Vitiate's greatest dept. Caedus is making ground. Being able to shield your mind is one thing, being able to shield your mind from Luke Skywalker himself? That's incredible.

Not maybe! Vitiate is, by far, the most dominating telepath to ever exist. He could conceal identities of his Children (who numbered in thousands) from even the most powerful Jedi; the Jedi Order figured out the existence of this menace through revelations from other Sith. First Son (the most prominent child of Vitiate) sat in the Jedi Council itself.

 

Most importantly, Luke's powers aren't infallible.

 

Because being able to easily master an extremely rare and complex ability is not impressive at all. Be careful how you go about dismissing esoteric abilities, they still bear weight.

Such abilities indicate talent of Caedus for sure.

 

In contrast, the full extent of abilities of Vitiate are unknown.

 

Some:-

 

1. When Vitiate ventured in to the dark temple; he forced all kinds of horrors in that place to submission, making the (entire) place safe for even his Imperial Guard to enter and position itself in different sections of the building. Dark Temple contained some spirits which could drive majority of the individuals insane. Read about this place here: http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Dark_Temple

 

2. Interesting feat:

 

 

Forged in a time before Sith wielded lightsabers, the ceremonial executioner's blade was later used by Sith Lord Koval Renge who preferred the tactile weapon over his traditional lightsaber. Lord Renge used the blade to dispatch hundreds of the Emperor's enemies and earned the title of Sith Executioner.

 

As the Emperor's power grew, so did Renge's fear of his master. Fear turned to betrayal, but Renge's plot did not escape the Emperor's notice. As punishment, the executioner's blade was turned on its owner. Renge resisted, but the blade struck true and broke off in his chest.

 

Renge was not permitted the escape of death. His wounds were healed, and the tainted splinter of his blade remained buried inside him. He was then cast into the Dark Temple, the agonizing splinter a constant reminder of the Emperor's cruel benevolence. (Star Wars: The Old Republic: Game Codex Entry)

 

 

3. Vitiate was the only being in the Galaxy who could effectively control and humble the The Dread Masters.

 

But nowhere near to that extent, Revan and Scourge could meditate and see random visions of the future. But they were not able to predetermine which part of the future they could see. That level of accuracy is again unprecedented and incredibly impressive. Pretty much outclasses every Force user whoever used foresight.

What future events did Caedus predicted?

 

Some examples:-

 

1. Revan predicted the arrival of Meetra to rescue him from his imprisonment by Nyriss

2. Traya predicted the fall of Jango Fett

3. Zayne Carrick predicted the rise of Vader?

4. Duron Qel-Droma predicted the fall of Malak at the hands of Revan

 

We are not at liberty to speculate here. Especially given that these are entirely different spheres of Force ability. What we have here is an incredible display of absolute mastery over Force lightning.

What else have Caedus accomplished with this "green" lightning?

 

Yet he has never demonstrated it on such a level. He was only able to project multiple versions of himself.

When Vitiate summoned his illusions for the first time, he was sitting on the throne. During this situation, Vitiate couldn't fool his opponent with his illusions (common sense). However, when Vitiate actually began to fight HoT himself, he again summoned his illusions during this moment and he could confuse his opponent during this scenario (common sense). As far as "making puppets" action is concerned, Vitiate didn't needed to rely upon his illusions to accomplish this task (common sense).

 

How about we don't imagine, and instead look at the facts at hand i.e. Caedus can sever people from the Force just as easily as the Sith Emperor can. Again gaining ground in his most potent abilities.

Vitiate demonstrated such capability at the age of 10; it is obvious that he could do wonders with this talent once he became Sith Emperor. The "mysterious power" he unleashed on some rebellious Dark Council members seems to be somewhat related to Force Sever technique (this is a speculation of mine though).

 

More fabricated evidence? Nyriss has never vaporized any Force users - only non-Force sensitives. Vitiate hasn't shown himself capable of this either. I'm nor sure where your getting these ideas from...

Nyriss reduced two guards to "charred and smoking husks" with a normal burst of her lightning. She would have done the same or worse to Scourge and Meetra (two powerful individuals) with her "signature" lighning, if Revan had not interfered. In-fact, she got reduced to "pile of charred ash" by her own power when it was turned on her. It is abundantly clear from this revelation that Nyriss have demonstrated extraordinary mastery over FL. In contrast, Vitiate set the bar even higher (much higher) since he would have utterly destroyed even Revan with his "signature" lightning (described as a "swirling storm of pure dark side energies"), had T3-M4 not interfered. What is so difficult to understand here? Sometimes, it is wise to use common sense in-conjunction with evidence to formulate a valid point.

 

We are not aware of the circumstances concerning those Jedi that Malak choked i.e. how powerful they are, if they were weakened, etc. I can't imagine they were that powerful.

They reached his position on Star Forge.

 

Dooku has never Force choked Anakin and Obi-Wan simultaneously as far as I'm aware.

He did so on Invisble Hand; he lifted both of them with his choke-hold and send them packing in different directions afterwards.

 

And Ventress and Opress were only able to do so in a moment of Force rage, which bolstered their powers.

Dark side practitioners use their emotions to fuel their power.

 

Lol this is a Force power, and this thread is about the Force users. Do the math. Also noting that Lumiya saw it as a sign of Sith Mastery - indicating that it was more down to power than innate ability.

Ok! Bastilla Shan is possibly most gifted in this aspect.

 

Biological bodies are limited in the amount of Force power they can take, and if too much Force power is exerted their body will overload which could well resort in death. Caedus, being able to go above and beyond this, has displayed Force affinity on a higher level than the normal human body can take. To put this into perspective we can compare him with other human/near-human Force users - who being human have roughly the same overload point - e.g:

 

 

  • Galen Marek almost collapsed from exertion when attempting to manipulate the flight path of a Star Destroyer - Caedus would have been able to do that and then some.
     
     
  • Dorks 81 by having six other Jedi channel their Force power through him was able to push an entire fleet of Star Destroyers out of the star system in the most powerful display of the Force push in recorded history - however his body overloaded and he was killed. It is feasible to assume that Caedus could, without aid, perform a feat on a similar magnitude, though likely not on the same scale.

Here;

 

 

As they drew closer to the throne room, Revan’s thoughts drifted back to his last confrontation with the Emperor. In all his battles, he had never faced an enemy with that kind of power. The dark side had radiated from him in palpable waves, his physical shell barely able to contain the crackling energy.

 

In their last meeting he had overwhelmed Revan completely; it wasn’t even fair to call it a battle. Revan had grown since then. He was far more powerful now, but was he a match for the Emperor?

 

 

However, Vitiate prevented deterioration of any body he possessed:-

 

Immunity to side effects of heavy dark side practices:

 

 

The incredible powers of the dark side come at a devastating cost. Masters of the dark arts quickly find their bodies ravaged by the dark side, their physical strength sapped as their grasp on the Force grows. (SWTORE, Page 148)

 

 

Heavy involvement in dark side practices can also prematurely accelerate aging in Force-users and reduce them to a mere shadow of their former-selves during their lives. Even powerful Sith Lords like Darth Bane suffered such deterioration:

 

 

There was another potential explanation, of course—yet it was the most troubling of all. It was possible Zannah had noticed his deteriorating physical abilities and had simply decided to wait. In five years his body would be a ruined husk, and she could dispatch him with virtually no risk. (Star Wars: Darth Bane: Dynasty of Evil)

 

 

However, Tenebrae possessed such power that he was immune to resultant deterioration from being heavily involved in dark side practices for long period. He remained at the top of the food chain of dark side practitioners for over 1300 years without issues and possessed the capability to last forever and change history.

 

 

The pain, energy, and suffering of every living entity on the planet fueled his power and would prolong his life for centuries. (SWTORE, Page 161)

 

This is something that even Sidious was not able to do even after his transformation.

 

As far as raw power is concerned; Vitiate heavily damaged Dark Temple (an extremely strong/durable building) during his weakest point (essence form). Imagine was Vitiate could do in healthy condition.

 

Again this is not a question of how applicable one's abilities are in a battle situation here. What we have here is an incredibly display of Force speed on par with the juggernaughts of Star Wars mythos - Luke Skywalker and Darth Sidious. That said I doubt the Sith Emperor would be fast enough to stop Caedus getting close to him.

Vitiate could unleash his powers at suck speed that even "prepared" opponents wouldn't get the chance to get close to him. Also, Vitiate could subdue his opponents in many ways; he had lot of options under his belt. In over a span of 1300 years, not once did he got blitzed or tackled until he was vulnerable. In a fair contest, not even HoT could touch him (Keep in mind that HoT is among the greatest duelists of the mythos as well). Heck, Vitiate felled whole Strike Teams singlehandedly.

 

Lol the HoT got lucky - sure, sure he did. Guess the Emperor's arthritis was kicking in no?

I have addressed this part before; while HoT became incredibly powerful, his victory over Vitiate is circumstantial. Vitiate wasn't prepared for combat during this encounter since he had involved himself in the most ambitions ritual ever attempted in the mythos. This was perfect time to strike at him.

 

Oh wow, I find it interesting that you neglected to mention that 'Lord Nyax' was being greatly empowered by the Force nexus surrounding the Jedi Temple, which in turn hampered Luke and co's abilities, and was wearing a massive suit armed with eight lightsabers. Not exactly a compelling argument.

Jedi Temple is a light side nexus or a kind of nexus which is beneficial to any kind of Force-user:

 

 

The Jedi Temple was the greatest nexus of Force energy in the Republic; its ziggurat design focused the Force the way a lightsaber's gemstone focused its energy stream. With the thousands of Jedi and Padawans within it every day contemplating peace, seeking knowledge, and meditating on justice and surrender to the will of the Force, the Temple was a fountain of the light.

 

Just being on its rooftop landing deck sent a surge of power through Anakin's whole body; if the Force was ever to show him a way to change the dark future of his nightmares, it would do so here. (Star Wars: Revenge of the Sith: Novelization)

 

 

The Sword of the Jedi isn't a powerhouse? What next, Darth Vader is a juggernaut? There is a reason why Jaina was chosen to go and fight Caedus over all others.

She is smart; I give her this. She accomplished her task with smartness and not her power; Caedus was also vulnerable during this encounter, therefore Jaina's victory is also circumstantial. I maintain that Jaina isn't a powerhouse; even Mara was considerably better then her.

 

Nothing special. You do realise that one set of words just made me disregard all your future arguments. Clearly you do not possess the necessary knowledge to have this kind of debate.

Really? :rolleyes:

 

Here is another thing that I figured about Vitiate recently:-

 

Planetary-scale destructive abilities?

 

Tenebrae, after his first transformation, possibly acquired the capability to devastate an entire planet with his Force abilities, should he desire.

 

 

“Nathema was just the beginning,” Scourge agreed. “He will destroy world after world, his power and madness growing in concert until he alone is left, Emperor over an empty and lifeless galaxy.”

 

Meetra stared at the two in horror.

 

“You’ve been to Nathema,” Scourge said. “You felt the Void. You know what the Emperor is capable of.”

 

“She understands,” Revan said, reading her expression more accurately than Scourge. “That’s not it.”

 

“He’s quarantined Dromund Kaas,” Meetra said, trying to lead them to the same conclusion. “What if he’s preparing to do the same thing here that he did on Nathema?”

 

Scourge hadn’t considered that possibility, and it chilled him to his core.

 

“Is that possible?” he asked. “Nyriss told me the ritual on Nathema took days, if not weeks. And the Emperor had to trick hundreds of other powerful Sith into working with him so he could draw on their power.”

 

“He’s stronger now,” Revan said. “But even if it’s possible, I don’t think he’ll go that far. At least not yet. He is too patient, too careful. Dromund Kaas is the heart of his Empire and the seat of his power. He has too many valuable resources here to throw it all away. (SWTOR: Revan)

 

 

Revan is absolutely correct:

 

 

Lord Vitiate takes command of the Sith Empire, now in shambles following the Great Hyperspace War. He executes the Sith Council and consumes the life force of thousands of Sith Lords in a terrifying ritual that extends his life and vastly increases his capacity as a practitioner of the Force. (SWTORE, Page 16)

[/color]

 

I don't know if you harbor some kind of "superiority complex" about yourself but you are likely to loose this debate with this kind of mindset. If you choose to disregard my input, you are copping-out.

 

And concerning Luke Skywalker being 60% more powerful than Sidious, I figured you would be aware of the quotes, everyone else is, anyway to enlighten you:

 

"However, after all of his limbs were severed and he was extremely burned on Mustafar he lost much of his Force potential. As Darth Vader, Skywalker was believed to have had roughly 80% of the strength of the Emperor. Had he sustained none of his injuries on Mustafar he would have been twice as powerful."

 

And according to George Lucas, Luke Skywalker fulfilled that potential. Now of course we have to take into account that DE Sidious supposedly increased in power, but I highly doubt that he increased by more than 60% and to assume so is pure speculation, and rather baseless. Nothing DE Sidious has done knocks ROTJ-Sidious out of the park.

So now DE Sidious "supposedly" increased in power?

 

 

Palpatine was so powerful in this new incarnation that Luke felt that the only way to defeat the Dark Side was to know its ways and to find its weaknesses. Luke has chosen his destiny: to understand the Dark Side from within and to use that knowledge to conquer it. (Star Wars: Dark Empire: Sourcebook)

 

 

 

Soon he was ready to strike. Fully healed and in greater control of the Dark Side than ever, he finally acted to end the Mutiny. In the past, he had been content to let his “children” tear each other to shreds. Such destruction would cull out the weak, the cowardly, the stupid. Now that he was truly indestructible, he could afford to set his standards higher. (Star Wars: Dark Empire: Sourcebook)

 

 

The greatest benefit of immortality is that it can make possibilities endless for a Force-user; Sidious managed to hone his dark side talents further since his capacity as a Force-user had increased after accomplishing immortality and he siphoned energies from populace of Byss to fuel his power. Since he had discovered and learned the Force Storm application, he was now able to actually use this application without aid of any weapon due to his updated condition. With such power, he outclassed all of his previous incarnations by significant margin; no mere mortal can wield such power. It is funny that I would have to debate in favor of Sidious against you; how times change.

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S_W_LeGenD

S_W_LeGenD

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And yes, I am bringing up the GL trump card. Because G-Canon does apply to the EU. Allow me to correct your rather selective use of quotes regarding the canon system:

 

Lucas Licensing editor Sue Rostoni elaborated further on the place of printed Expanded Universe sources in Star Wars Gamer 6,

 

"Canon refers to an authoritative list of books that the Lucas Licensing editors consider an authentic part of the official Star Wars history. Our goal is to present a continuous and unified history of the Star Wars galaxy, insofar as that history does not conflict with, or undermine the meaning of Mr. Lucas's Star Wars saga of films and screenplays."

 

On August 4, 2004, when asked if the G and C-levels formed separate and independent canon, Leland Chee responded by stating that both were part of a single canon:

 

"There is one overall continuity."

 

What you are doing here is mistaking film only continuity and film + EU continuity:

 

This statement confirms the priority of the "current version of the films" over the original versions, as well as the existence of two separate continuities, the "film only" continuity maintained and followed by George Lucas himself, and the "film + EU" continuity that is used for licensed products.

 

George Lucas only concerns himself with Film only continuity, to which the EU is irrelevant. But this does not work both ways. There is no EU only continuity but film + EU continuity. And in that continuity G-Canon exists to ensure that the EU stays true to the films and George Lucas' vision. Therefore in terms of film + EU continuity yes G-Canon is applicable to everything. Please do not lecture us on topics you don't full understand.

Nicely put but this doesn't negates my perception about this matter.

 

The purpose of continuity is to ensure consistency within the Star Wars mythos. However, is this continuity applicable to "power factor" of characters? Not necessarily.

 

Continuity ensures that existing storylines and certain ground realities of Star Wars are respected by all the contributors to the lore.

 

Analogy:-

 

The stories of Revan, Meetra, Exar and Marka predate the story of Vitiate. Prior to introduction of Vitiate, all of these characters were canonically the most powerful in their respective eras and orders. With introduction of Vitiate, this aspect of canon of the 4 former characters changed (retconned). However, retconning the stories of the 4 former characters was not an option since this would have immensely altered the history of the mythos and also disturbed the continuity within the lore of the mythos since some of these stories are linked with content representing future storylines (i.e. Exar and Marka). So Bioware was left with the option to link these stories with the story of Vitiate and they planned his story accordingly;

 

1. Vitiate excluded himself from the politics of the Sith prior to Great Hyperspace War (Stories of Marka, Ludo and Naga weren't disturbed in this manner).

2. Vitiate reconstituted the ancient Sith Empire in unknown regions and concealed it from the Republic for a very long time until he was ready (Stories of Exar, Revan and Meetra weren't disturbed in this manner; in-fact, loopholes in these stories were used to formulate linkage between these stories and the story of Vitiate).

 

In the aforementioned fashion, justice was done to the existing canon and new content was introduced without any repercussions.

 

---

 

Understand?

 

GL may enforce the point that Anakin is the "Chosen One" among the Force-users of the mythos. All other contributors to Star Wars mythos would respect his decision to ensure continuity in the mythos. However, these contributors are free to introduce characters more powerful then Anakin Skywalker and even Luke Skywalker irrespective of timelines; and they are doing so. Heck, The Father character have been recently introduced in G-canon or associated content who is superior to even the "Chosen One." So?

 

Similarly, Sidious have been significantly amped in the EU content from his G-canon based incarnation; therefore, "ground realities" of G-canon concerning the power of characters featured in G-canon content no longer apply to Sidious of Dark Empire era in EU content. However, these "ground realities" certainly apply to Sidious depicted in EU content associated with the movies or G-canon content. This is the beauty of creative liberties.

 

Understand?

 

Funny, before I was unsure on whether Caedus was more powerful than the Sith Emperor. But Legend's attempt to 'rip apart' Rayla's arguments have convinced me that this is the case.

Yeah sure...

 

Make your decision after this debate is over.

 

Oh don't pretend to be the right here Legend, all you've done is insult Rayla's intelligence and arguments and I and she do not take kindly to that.

 

Anyway are we done here? Good. There seems to be a general consensus that Traya deserves #9.

I apologize for any remark that may have offended both of you.

 

No, we are not done with this debate yet. My comprehensive response above should be factored-in.

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Beniboybling

Beniboybling

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Legend, forgive me but I refuse to let this thread get debunked by another of your long-winded arguments. Especially about canon. If you want to debate that Caedus is more powerful than Sith Emperor 1. wait until the list is completed and 2. do it through the proper structure that has been used throughout these threads i.e. in terms of the categories of Force powers.

 

Control

Sense

Alter

 

This one-sided downplaying will get us nowhere. And no I am not about to change my mind on Luke Skywalker being more powerful than Sidious. It is quite obvious. He defeated him in a lightsaber duel then severed him from the Force with the help of an untrained Force-sensitive before he reached his prime.

 

So unless you can prove that Sidious increased in power by 60% then your argument will remain rejected.

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S_W_LeGenD

S_W_LeGenD

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Legend, forgive me but I refuse to let this thread get debunked by another of your long-winded arguments. Especially about canon. If you want to debate that Caedus is more powerful than Sith Emperor 1. wait until the list is completed and 2. do it through the proper structure that has been used throughout these threads i.e. in terms of the categories of Force powers.

 

Control

Sense

Alter

 

This one-sided downplaying will get us nowhere. And no I am not about to change my mind on Luke Skywalker being more powerful than Sidious. It is quite obvious. He defeated him in a lightsaber duel then severed him from the Force with the help of an untrained Force-sensitive before he reached his prime.

 

So unless you can prove that Sidious increased in power by 60% then your argument will remain rejected.

Beni, if this is your attitude then you are not much in to "constructive debates" either; this kind of attitude is not healthy for "constructive debates."

 

Respect the time and effort that I have spent on my responses above (as I have done for you) and evaluate them/give them fair chance just like you are giving to the responses of other members in your threads.

 

My intention is not to downplay Luke but to offer a realistic portrayal of him. My arguments are supported by canonical information so their is no reason to disregard them due to this reason alone: they do not fit with your perceptions.

 

Also, Luke defeated Sidious with aid of Leia; he couldn't do it alone. In addition, it is not wise to rely upon outcomes of lightsaber duels to determine how powerful a character is. Yes, power factor can reflect upon lightsaber duels but this is rare case. In martial aspects of combat, individuals have fallen to lesser foes.

 

You are free to fill remaining spots and then re-evaluate the whole list afterwards; I am not pressuring you on this. However, I will continue to respond as per my convenience.

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S_W_LeGenD

S_W_LeGenD

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Someone saying beni's not one for debates? Good lord......

 

The Apocalypse is upon us!

 

It's been a pleasure knowing you guys :(

Don't get me wrong; he is an active participate. However, the sheer size of one of my recent responses probably tired him out early on (at least for one day). :D

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Beniboybling

Beniboybling

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Beni, if this is your attitude then you are not much in to "constructive debates" either; this kind of attitude is not healthy for "constructive debates."

 

Respect the time and effort that I have spent on my responses above (as I have done for you) and evaluate them/give them fair chance just like you are giving to the responses of other members in your threads.

 

My intention is not to downplay Luke but to offer a realistic portrayal of him. My arguments are supported by canonical information so their is no reason to disregard them due to this reason alone: they do not fit with your perceptions.

 

Also, Luke defeated Sidious with aid of Leia; he couldn't do it alone. In addition, it is not wise to rely upon outcomes of lightsaber duels to determine how powerful a character is. Yes, power factor can reflect upon lightsaber duels but this is rare case. In martial aspects of combat, individuals have fallen to lesser foes.

 

You are free to fill remaining spots and then re-evaluate the whole list afterwards; I am not pressuring you on this. However, I will continue to respond as per my convenience.

I'm not saying your arguments are invalid. But this is not the way I want to conduct this thread, and I can see that line of argument going on forever. That is not constructive in anyway.

 

Anyway, there is still some contention concerning Traya vs Dooku. Currently I'm a little tied up with the Kaggath but when I have the time I'll attempt an in-depth comparison. Unless someone would like to do one for me?

 

P.S. Luke defeated Sidious with the help of an untrained Force sensitive, before he reached his prime. Can you imagine what he would be capable of at the height of his power. Do you understand the nature of sever force? In order to sever your opponent from the Force you have to be more powerful than them meaning Leia + Luke > Sidious. And Luke grew much much stronger after that, eclipsing his sister and all other Jedi in the Order entirely.

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