The BattleZone Reboot Round 1 Match 10: Darth Malgus vs. Obi-Wan Kenobi

[Wolfninjajedi]

Tbh I ain't sure how Malgus is gonna stop Obi-Wan's powerful Force Push, barrier or not. He was matching the raw power of Anakin with it. As for Force Maelstrom, what exactly is in the senate building for Malgus to pull to him and throw at Obi-Wan? Its pretty much an empty room right? Edited July 16, 2013 by Wolfninjajedi

[Beniboybling]

Tbh I ain't sure how Malgus is gonna stop Obi-Wan's powerful Force Push, barrier or not. He was matching the raw power of Anakin with it. As for Force Maelstrom, what exactly is in the senate building for Malgus to pull to him and throw at Obi-Wan? Its pretty much an empty room right?

Well it depends were the are, but the force maelstrom isn't just a whirlwind of objects, but a storm of dark side energy. There is also a massive repulse of energy, sort of like an electrified Force wave.

 

And Obi-Wan's Force push is impressive, but it will only slow Malgus' advance. Also note his ability in it is more down to skill rather than power. If anything, it will just lead Malgus to respond it kind.

[Aurbere]

This question remains unanswered: how quickly can Malgus unleash a Maelstrom? If it takes him a long time, then there's no point in considering it.

[Wolfninjajedi]

Well it depends were the are, but the force maelstrom isn't just a whirlwind of objects, but a storm of dark side energy. There is also a massive repulse of energy, sort of like an electrified Force wave.

 

And Obi-Wan's Force push is impressive, but it will only slow Malgus' advance. Also note his ability in it is more down to skill rather than power. If anything, it will just lead Malgus to respond it kind.

 

Yes this is true, but the fact Obi-Wan was able to match Anakin's says something. I don't recall Malgus resisting a Force Push that would be that powerful.

[Beniboybling]

This question remains unanswered: how quickly can Malgus unleash a Maelstrom? If it takes him a long time, then there's no point in considering it.

I would not assume very long, it seems like an in battle fleet. Like a Force wave.

 

In the Force Unleashed its depicted as beginning instantly.

[Aurbere]

I would not assume very long, it seems like an in battle fleet. Like a Force wave.

 

In the Force Unleashed its depicted as beginning instantly.

 

TFU game, or novel? Cutscene or gameplay?

 

Regardless, I think it would take time to achieve its full effect.

[Beniboybling]

Yes this is true, but the fact Obi-Wan was able to match Anakin's says something. I don't recall Malgus resisting a Force Push that would be that powerful.

We can't fault Malgus for being so powerful that everyone else paled in comparison can we. But anyway, he did do this. (Also just a reminder of what happens when Malgus enters rage mode.) Demonstrating an incredibly durability. I doubt a Force push would do anything other than buy Obi-Wan time.

[Aurbere]

We can't fault Malgus for being so powerful that everyone else paled in comparison can we. But anyway, he did do this. (Also just a reminder of what happens when Malgus enters rage mode.) Demonstrating an incredibly durability. I doubt a Force push would do anything other than buy Obi-Wan time.

 

Obi-Wan has shown greater telekinesis than Kao. But then, so has Malgus.

 

Regardless, still impressive.

[Beniboybling]

TFU game, or novel? Cutscene or gameplay?

 

Regardless, I think it would take time to achieve its full effect.

Gameplay, but its all we've got.

 

Also a picture of Malgus blasting back dozens of people all around him presumably in the midst of battle (when else is he going to be killing people?) I highly doubt it would take any more than 10-15 seconds. Else the ability would be useless unless you can stand right in front of your enemies for a couple of minutes without them noticing.

[Beniboybling]

Obi-Wan has shown greater telekinesis than Kao. But then, so has Malgus.

 

Regardless, still impressive.

Really? When?

[Aurbere]

Gameplay, but its all we've got.

 

Also a picture of Malgus blasting back dozens of people all around him presumably in the midst of battle (when else is he going to be killing people?) I highly doubt it would take any more than 10-15 seconds. Else the ability would be useless unless you can stand right in front of your enemies for a couple of minutes without them noticing.

 

10-15 seconds can be a long time in a lightsaber duel. He would have to get a fairly large opening.

[Aurbere]

Really? When?

 

Obi-Wan moved a starfighter, for one. He can also use Force Repulse (the highest level of Force Push).

[Beniboybling]

10-15 seconds can be a long time in a lightsaber duel. He would have to get a fairly large opening.

By 10-15 seconds I mean to reach its pinnacle. The Force maelstrom is a gradual process, like a storm brewing. First the energy sphere forms around you, then the air begins to crackle with Force lightning and violent winds, and then all hell breaks loose as the full force of the power unleashes itself, spewing out bursts of lightning a Force repulse.

 

Remember when the Sith Emperor unleashed a storm of energy on the Jed strike team? I'd expect it to be something like that. Lets say Malgus blasts him back, he then begins to conjure a maelstrom. Obi-Wan recovers and rushes Malgus, but is held back by the growing energy/telekinetic field around Malgus and then BOOM he's a goner.

 

That said, Malgus could just blast Obi-Wan with a barrage of Force lightning and wait for him to give way. Even if he manages to endure or reflect it he'll still be weakened. All Malgus' Force based attacks, which he will likely chain into his lightsaber sequence, will slowly wear Obi-Wan down.

 

EDIT: If this turns into a war of attrition, Malgus will win.

Edited July 16, 2013 by Beniboybling

[Aurbere]

Considering that there are no objects (that I recall) in the arena, I'm fairly certain that Malgus' Maelstrom will look something akin to the Lightning Shield ability in TFU.

 

Pro-tip: Lightning Shield turns Dark Troopers and Walkers into tissue paper.

[Selenial]

People seem to be misremembering the fight here. Obi-Wan defeats Durge by cutting his weapons to pieces or destroying them through the Force. Not through brute strength, the only reason Durge lost was because he wasn't a Force user and didn't have a lightsaber, so he was unable to meet Obi-Wan at a level playing field. He had no answer to his lightsaber. Malgus does.

 

He had little shields on his arm, and upon activating them Obi-Wan slashed at him with ferocity, fast and power attacks. Durge lost ground continuously, and didn't manage to recover from Obi-Wans onslaught.

I know he survived, but Obi-Wan broke through his defenses enough to chop him into about 4 pieces.

[Selenial]

Considering that there are no objects (that I recall) in the arena, I'm fairly certain that Malgus' Maelstrom will look something akin to the Lightning Shield ability in TFU.

 

Pro-tip: Lightning Shield turns Dark Troopers and Walkers into tissue paper.

 

None in the Arena no, in the Corridors around it maybe, but Obi-Wan wouldn't allow himself to be trapped in there by accident, given the small space, and i doubt Malgus is the type to maneuver his foes into position.

[marcelo_sdk]

First, the user would form a Force Bubble around their body, concealing and protecting them inside. Then, any loose objects/persons around the user would swirl around the bubble, through telekinesis. Finally, the user would devastate the objects by blasting them away, in a surge of Force Lightning.

 

That's Wokiee description about Force Maelstrom. As you can see, objects fly not as the objective of the technique, but as a consequence. They're far from neccessary for the success of a Force Maelstrom.

[Aurbere]

None in the Arena no, in the Corridors around it maybe, but Obi-Wan wouldn't allow himself to be trapped in there by accident, given the small space, and i doubt Malgus is the type to maneuver his foes into position.

 

In every single duel in Deceived, Malgus either bullrushes his opponent, or hits them with a Force power of some sort and then bullrushes.

 

So no, he's not one to maneuver his foes into position.

[Aurbere]

That's Wokiee description about Force Maelstrom. As you can see, objects fly not as the objective of the technique, but as a consequence. They're far from neccessary for the success of a Force Maelstrom.

 

Maybe not, but the objects make the Maelstrom much more effective.

[tunewalker]

Am I the only one feeling like most of this is still largely irrelevant.

 

Malgus is not so powerful that he will ROLF stomp Obi-wan no one is so powerful that they can just go lawls and win. Even Luke would have to keep his head while fighting Kenobi, if he went head first he could get beaten.

 

This said Malgus is in the same boat he focus's entirely on his opponent ignoring his surroundings completely. This does generally help him in the fact that he can force openings or spot opening in his opponent, but with obi-wan this will be much harder then when he fought any one else as none of the note worthy opponents he has faced are any where near the Soresu master that Obi-wan is. Obi-wan can take the fight where ever he choses and will have more then enough terrain to do so I believe. If he knocks Malgus out of a window it will still hurt malgus and obi-wan can still go any where he pleases. Obi-wan has shown a knack for hiding himself in the force and sneaking up on people. Also we have no idea how Malgus will respond to verbal taunts something Obi-wan is known for and Malgus has never faced, it could break the sith lords concentration, and thus that help that he normally gets from the single mindedness goes away. Honostly I think we are undercutting Kenobi's troll power and we are undercutting his defensive capabilities.

[Beniboybling]

In every single duel in Deceived, Malgus either bullrushes his opponent, or hits them with a Force power of some sort and then bullrushes.

 

So no, he's not one to maneuver his foes into position.

Lets not underestimate Malgus' tactical mind. He doesn't simply charge in guns blazing and hope his enemy just dies like Savage Opress. He is incredibly proficient in recognizing and exploiting weaknesses in his opponent and maneuvering his opponents into vulnerable positions. In particular he uses this twice against Ven Zallow. Most notable here. And also here when Malgus feigned being stunned which left Zallow open to the blow that killed him.

 

Really, I feel we are underestimating Malgus' lightsaber skills. His Djem So is incredibly effective, combining sheer force with an excellent, tight defense. And in addition to that he overcame the main weakness of Djem So - lack of mobility - Malgus is highly agile and acrobatic. Combine that with the fact that Malgus is incredibly tactically aware, and has the benefits of battle precognition and you have a warrior who is not going to be making any mistakes

 

He's not going to be falling out of any windows because he'd see a tactic like that coming and he's not going to be affected by any Dun Moch tactics which are far far more likely to cause the boomerang effect via Malgus' battle rage.

 

I see a Kenobi who is unable to fight back. Sure its feasible he could weather the storm through Soresu, but he can't win that way, Malgus is unlikely to leave any openings as as the battle progresses he is only going to get stronger, and Malgus will catch on to any attempts made by Kenobi to exploit his weaknesses.

 

Kenobi will be forced to attempt to penetrate Malgus' defense with Ataru, but if Malgus' performance against Zallow, Darach and Satele is any indication, that isn't going to work. Its only a matter of time before Malgus chains a Force-based attack into his assualt and then its game over for Kenobi.

 

P.S. We should also note that Kenobi is not one to chain Force pushes into his assault, and Malgus isn't going to give him any reprieve. So the chances that Kenobi's Force powers will come into the question are slim.

[Canino]

Beni, I think you are underestimating Obi-wan. His skill in Soresu is unprecedented, and highly advanced.

Dooku was astounded by the simplicity and efficiency of his bladework, but also his bewildering speed and precision. Caught off-guard and forced to retreat in confusion, Dooku only succeeded in defeating Kenobi thanks to his superior mastery of the Force.

~Wookiepedia

In his final duel with Grievous, Kenobi provided one of the most pure demonstrations of Soresu. His blade's intricate pattern of blocks and parries moved just fast enough to subtly interfere with Grievous' multiple strikes, while his slight dodges and shifts of stance facilitated his simple evasion of the rest. As a frustrated Grievous ramped up the intensity of his assault, Kenobi countered by merely altering the angle of his parries, clipping off two of Grievous' mechanical wrists.

~Wookiepedia

...his Soresu mastery perfectly countered Vader's angry Form V. Kenobi simply deflected and blocked Darth Vader's relentless rain of blows, returning counter-blows himself to disrupt Vader's onslaught, all the while guiding the battle to a location of his choice, before finally dismembering the hapless and enraged Sith Lord when his defense lapsed.

~Wookiepedia

 

His mastery of the form perfectly countered Form V. When Vader (in ANH) duels him, he learned his lesson as well. He incorporated Ataru, Makashi, Juyo, and Shi-choo into his style. He also learned to use cautious, timed assaulted instead of giving into his rage and attacking.

 

I think you are also going a bit overkill on Malgus' Form V. Remember, for the majority, lightsaber combat and forms where improved upon through time. Malgus may be good, but he would not be as good as a master during this age. It is simply the way things are- the forms where improved upon throughout time, and Obi-wan has experience with the newer, better form.

 

Obi-wan also has one of the strong force pushes in this era.

 

He later displayed his mastery of Force Push during his duel with Darth Vader on Mustafar, as neither of them were able to overpower the other while simultaneously using the ability. The two struggled against each other for a short time, and though Kenobi was clearly giving ground, they both ended up being hurled in opposite directions across the room they were in. The fact that Vader's connection to the Force was, at the time, stronger than any known Force user in history further exemplifies Kenobi's mastery of the technique.

~Wookiepedia

 

His force repertoire also included:

Force Crush

Force Absorption

Force Deflection

Animal Train/Friendship

Imitate Sounds

Dominate Mind

How to Become a Force Ghost

 

These could all be used to effect Malgus. Especially imitate sound. Kenobi is cunning and will likely run to set a trap. Imitate sound could be used to extreme effect in this scenario.

 

Don't underestimate "The Negotiator"!

 

P.S: Sorry for the long post, but I went all out pretty much. Also this was my grand entrance to the thread, so....

I"M HERE!

[marcelo_sdk]

Beni, I think you are underestimating Obi-wan. His skill in Soresu is unprecedented, and highly advanced.

 

 

His mastery of the form perfectly countered Form V. When Vader (in ANH) duels him, he learned his lesson as well. He incorporated Ataru, Makashi, Juyo, and Shi-choo into his style. He also learned to use cautious, timed assaulted instead of giving into his rage and attacking.

 

I think you are also going a bit overkill on Malgus' Form V. Remember, for the majority, lightsaber combat and forms where improved upon through time. Malgus may be good, but he would not be as good as a master during this age. It is simply the way things are- the forms where improved upon throughout time, and Obi-wan has experience with the newer, better form.

 

 

 

His force repertoire also included:

Force Crush

Force Absorption

Force Deflection

Animal Train/Friendship

Imitate Sounds

Dominate Mind

How to Become a Force Ghost

 

These could all be used to effect Malgus. Especially imitate sound. Kenobi is cunning and will likely run to set a trap. Imitate sound could be used to extreme effect in this scenario.

 

Don't underestimate "The Negotiator"!

 

P.S: Sorry for the long post, but I went all out pretty much. Also this was my grand entrance to the thread, so....

I"M HERE!

 

First of all, os far as I know, Malgus was a master of Shien and Makashi. It's likely he utilized Djem So, we can pretty much infere this by seeing his fights (especially against Ven Zallow). So, he'll not be limited to Djem So against Kenobi. On the contraire, if his offensive does not break the later's defense, he'll have the perfect answer to Kenobi's Soresu: Makashi.

 

And we can't just assume that duelists from the Golden Age are better, just cause they had more "time" to improve the forms. The only new Form that was designed during these years was Vaapad, which will not come into account this battle. The other forms were pretty much inaltered.

 

Some of the Force Powers you listed are pretty much irrelevant for this battle. And do you really think Imitate Sound will have this importance? Then I don't know why he never used it in a duel.

 

I still think that things will be decided with lightsaber. And I see Malgus dominating Kenobi, pretty much like Dooku did. He combined the agility of the former, plus the physical power.

[Beniboybling]

I'd like to start by reinforcing the fact that it is highly unlikely that Kenobi will fall back on Force powers in his duel given the fact he has not shown any ability or favour for chaining Force-based attacks into his fighting sequence, nor will he be given the reprieve from Malgus' onslaught to perform such an attack.

 

Anyway regarding lightsaber forms, I fully recognize that Kenobi is an exceptional duelist. I simply see it however as only delaying the inevitable. Against a more unrefined duelist such as Grievous he would succeed in disarming him, but against a highly skilled duelist with 20 years of experience its unlikely to happen. He would only succeed in drawing the duel out, he'd have to fall back on Ataru if he wished to do any damage.

 

However your missing the vital point which is noted in one or your quotes: "Dooku only succeeded in defeating Kenobi thanks to his superior mastery of the Force." What defense does Kenobi have against a chained force attack? Nothing other than his personal Force barriers, which will do little to soften the raw power that Malgus can emit.

 

P.S. The only ability in that list you gave Canino that would be useful in this battle if Force ghost. At least Obi-Wan won't be completely dead after Malgus destroys them. Jk, jk.

[Aurbere]

The other forms were pretty much inaltered.

It's pretty much stated in The Jedi Path that the Jedi were advancing their knowledge of the lightsaber forms.