July Assassin Questions - Let's Start her up!

[Xinika]

PvP Darkness (though I think there are more pressing concerns).

Such as?

 

Edit: Suggestion concerning Madness as Wildcat is noteworthy.

Edited August 1, 2013 by Xinika

[stephenalandavie]

Arent they due in today the questions?

[vVvCheese]

Such as?

 

Edit: Suggestion concerning Madness as Wildcat is noteworthy.

 

I think assassins are fine, if not too good, in PvP as of now, to be honest.

 

However, forced to pick something I'd like changed in PvP, I would like to see changes to deception force regen. Assassins are great guarding and ganking nodes, but in an extended fight with healers, we run out of burst eventually and are outclassed by marauders and juggs in the melee DPS department.

[jackrunip]

I find that deception doesn't really have issues with force levels. Between the 6 seconds of 50% faster force regen on stealth exit (Fade), the out of stealth version of the same thing, being able to disappear and come back in (effectively giving another 12 seconds of +50%, the 75% less force cost of SS, 15 second cooldown on Fade + 30 Second reduction on force cloak, I don't have issues keeping my force levels up.

 

I'd much rather look at getting Madness viable for PvP again. I miss that spec...

Edited August 1, 2013 by jackrunip

[stephenalandavie]

I find that deception doesn't really have issues with force levels. Between the 6 seconds of 50% faster force regen on stealth exit (Fade), the out of stealth version of the same thing, being able to disappear and come back in (effectively giving another 12 seconds of +50%, the 75% less force cost of SS, 15 second cooldown on Fade + 30 Second reduction on force cloak, I don't have issues keeping my force levels up.

 

I'd much rather look at getting Madness viable for PvP again. I miss that spec...

 

Their is a severe lack of sustained damage though with infiltration hence why it lacks in PVE.

[vVvCheese]

Just a thought that hit me:

 

Why not write a well-phrased paragraph addressing each of the specs for each of our three questions?

 

The Darkness issues carry over well: We lack armor (or some other solution) to extreme burst damage, our cooldowns are not nearly as amazing as Juggs, and our damage profiles are not nearly as flat as PT (which is the spikiness issues, plenty of parses to support this). Is anything being done to address this? If not, what is the reasoning?

 

Deception's issues lie in similar places. It is impossible to maximize DPS for any long period of time due to a lack of force. There is an utter lack of utility in the tree, which makes them undesirable in PvE, and force problems keep the sustained damage down, which puts them behind other mDPS numerically as well. Are any considerations being made to add utility outside of stuns to the deception tree? Is our sustained damage being considerably lower than similar specs going to be looked at?

 

Madness...well to be honest I'm not even sure where to start, so many problems

[kwestone]

My point was that it *is* possible to suss out the practical benefits of phase based DPS increases based off of Dummy parses. The devs claiming that Dummy parses *aren't* legitimate tools for raw DPS-capability comparison is simply wrong. It just take 30 minutes of work to fix it.

 

The problem that *I* have, that I was trying to elaborate on with all of the math, was that the contributions of the factors that the developers believed would bolster Shadows up to the proper level are inflated in either the developers' minds or in their math, both of which indicate needed corrections.

 

As to the discrepancy between dummy DPS and practical DPS that's, honestly, to be expected. Everyone experiences a DPS drop in practical circumstances. Dummy parsers are really just supposed to demonstrate the raw DPS capability of a class in non-theoretical circumstances. Basically, they're a step above raw theorycrafting (which is what the devs seem to use almost exclusively for their balance calcs) and just below actual fight parses on the scale of practical functionality v. theoretical functionality because they add in the human factor but remove fight complications.

 

They're, honestly, the best analytics for real DPS balance. Raw theory ignores too many practical variables, like the level of absolute precision required for some specs to achieve functional DPS (like seen in Madness/Balance; DoT reapplication for it is *crazy* unforgiving and one of the biggest reasons why it has *never* gotten as close to its theoretical DPS as every other spec manages), and actual fight parses include too many variables that have to be removed to arrive as the needed ST equivalence.

 

Any suggested tweaks really should take the relevant dummy parses and attack/damage breakdowns into consideration. The breakdown math on the "nonstandard" benefits just provides tools for properly adjudicating fixes that will actually impact the class properly.

 

My problem with the suggestion that the execute phase is going to increase DPS really ignores the fact that most boss fights require so much movement that it basically negates the execute increase.

 

For example:

Styrak execute phase is eaten up by a dragon that pushes back up above the execute phase, effectively eliminating the phase until the dragon reaches 30%. Then, when he does reappear it is not exactly stand still and beat on him.

 

The dread guards in TFB are spawning ads, so if you are spec madness you are supposed to kill these ads with dots? "Hey guys, I just need another 18 seconds to kill these guys"

 

Another TFB fight, the TFB -

Hypergate anomalies need burst... Madness has none. Tanks will finish before the Madness assassin.

 

I could go on, but the point is pretty easy for anyone putting any serious thought into it. The only fights that the assassin DPS is really going to benefit from are tank and spank. Raid groups dont typically have trouble with those.

[thejollygreenone]

I find that deception doesn't really have issues with force levels. Between the 6 seconds of 50% faster force regen on stealth exit (Fade), the out of stealth version of the same thing, being able to disappear and come back in (effectively giving another 12 seconds of +50%, the 75% less force cost of SS, 15 second cooldown on Fade + 30 Second reduction on force cloak, I don't have issues keeping my force levels up.

 

I'd much rather look at getting Madness viable for PvP again. I miss that spec...

 

if you've ever tried playing deception in pve you'd know that there is 45 seconds between any given blackout, or sets of dark embrace. this tends to be too long and we can go out of force quickly from being forced to spam voltaic slash, this will end up with time periods of up to 20 seconds where dps is being lowered drastically. this is a common occurrence.

just aswell, anyone who actually plays deception knows that you will get 18 seconds of force regen because stealth resets the cooldown of blackout. people will do blackout>force cloak>blackout. however nice this is it isn't enough when we go severely out of force for up to 20 seconds at a time. in pvp it may not be a big deal but in pve this is a huge dps killer.

[FuriCuri]

Tank spikiness.

 

PvP Darkness (though I think there are more pressing concerns).

 

Consider rolling the madness tune-ups together into a pvp/pve hybrid question.

 

I think the same.

Also Xinika should probably cooperate with Kitru to not overlap in questions.

[Griad]

From what's gathered so far. If you were to select which one is more important, which will it be?

 

PvE

Deception's Low DPS, Madness Tune-up or Tank Spikiness?

PvP

Madness Tune-up or Lackluster Tanking?

 

I still think that deception crit reliance is a problem, but other than that i think that its fair to say that our main issues are as listed above.

In regards of tanks i also might note that even though we are spikier we are not in an awfull place we are still able to tank everything in the game.

Edited August 2, 2013 by Griad

[Xinika]

I think the same.

Also Xinika should probably cooperate with Kitru to not overlap in questions.

That's already happening

[ConCube]

From what's gathered so far. If you were to select which one is more important, which will it be?

 

PvE

Deception's Low DPS, Madness Tune-up or Tank Spikiness?

PvP

Madness Tune-up or Lackluster Tanking?

 

Definitely the DeceptionSin's low DPS in PvE! I so really hope it gets competetive to other top DPS classes!

[FuriCuri]

Definitely the DeceptionSin's low DPS in PvE! I so really hope it gets competetive to other top DPS classes!

 

I think Madness should be looked at to became new best sustained DPS spec which could solve our problems with PvE and provide alternative DPS spec for PvP.

[ConCube]

I think Madness should be looked at to became new best sustained DPS spec which could solve our problems with PvE and provide alternative DPS spec for PvP.

 

 

Actually I don't really care! As long as any DPStree gets viable for PvE I'm totally happy!

(Still hopin' it'll be Deception ...)

[FuriCuri]

Actually I don't really care! As long as any DPStree gets viable for PvE I'm totally happy!

(Still hopin' it'll be Deception ...)

 

Well, deception got great burst (which is required for PvP) but lacks sustain damage (which is required for PvE). It could became OP if it will got sustain dps buffed - to the point they have to nerf burst from it. Meanwhile we've got one tree which has bad burst and subpar sustain dps - a perfect candidate to became best sustain dps tree for PvE and not overpower deception tree.

[Majspuffen]

From what's gathered so far. If you were to select which one is more important, which will it be?

 

PvE

Deception's Low DPS, Madness Tune-up or Tank Spikiness?

PvP

Madness Tune-up or Lackluster Tanking?

 

Personally I don't care about PvE, but for PvP I'm very curious to hear them justify their changes made to Madness. So Madness Tune-up!

[Griad]

Deception dps is the main issue for me because i do alot of pve and i dont like madness and will never play it.

[FuriCuri]

Deception dps is the main issue for me because i do alot of pve and i dont like madness and will never play it.

 

I personally on your side here - I love Deception and if it possible I rather play in that spec then Madness. But like I've said - I think it's impossible to have spec that both got best burst and sustain dps. So instead of getting good sustain dps with nerfed burst I'd rather get sepparate spec for PvE with good sustain damage.

[stuffystuffs]

Since they changed Madness for the sole purpose of making it easier to play and hence more accessible, I'm curious if their class data metrics show an increase of Madness Assassin players and if this has met their expectations. If not, do they have plans to significantly 'tweak' the tree again?

[PerKIA]

From what's gathered so far. If you were to select which one is more important, which will it be?

 

PvE

Deception's Low DPS, Madness Tune-up or Tank Spikiness?

PvP

Madness Tune-up or Lackluster Tanking?

 

Deceptions low dps. or rather, the low dps of assassin. As it is now, its dead in pve.

[cycao]

From what I gather the three biggest issues are tanks in PvE, madness dps for both PvE and PvP and sustained dps issues for deception in both PvE and PvP.

 

Now I don't tank PvE so I really wont touch on that.

 

Still cant wrap my head around why madness got nerfed so hard in 2.0. No shock, maul or instant WW really helped finish off a class which was already the least played spec for assassins. Either maul/shock needs to find its way back into the rotation or assassinate needs to have a chance to proc to be used at any % of the players health but something needs to be done because there reasoning behind making it 'easier' to play was bunk...it was easy to play.

 

Now deception is a touchy one. They are almost there in terms of being wanted for ranked, they can get on there but they don't have a saved spot for dps (tanks get in no problem but I am done guarding nodes for ranked). The sustained damage is low and people already think that they are OP for PvP but lack the sustained needed for PvE. Increasing sustained and you would almost certainly need to lower the burst which imo is right where it should be.

 

So that being said I think tanks for PvE and Madness damage as a whole needs to be looked at.

[Berjiz]

There are so many good questions that can be asked. It's a bit sad really because it shows how broken assasins are with pretty much all specs. The only exception might be deception pvp and madness pve. But they are stilll no that good.

 

All the questions:

 

1. PvE tankspikness

2. PvE/PvP deception sustained dmg

3. PvE dps, why bring an assasin at all? Subpar dps and little utility. Deception/madness needs more utility. Also has no aoe.

4. PvP madness pretty much crap in pvp

5. PvE madness requiring reallly good play to get decent dps, need dps buff.

6. PvE/PvP Phase walk is bad, look at the phase walk alternative thread. So many things with it that makes it annoying to use for little benifit.

7. PvP tanks lacking something

 

I split the questions as much as possible, some of them could probably be combined like 6 and 3. 4 and 5 etc. Personally I want to see 1, 4 combined with 5 and then some question about lack of utility/aoe and crappines of phase walk.

[stephenalandavie]

Have the questions been sent in already?. Its just the deadlines passed?

[Xinika]

Have the questions been sent in already?. Its just the deadlines passed?

No they have not.

[Hockaday]

The second "question" has been answered. Please remove it. (the answer is, there is a 5% chance it can fail) As for the third, a Sin can MT in PvP just as well as a guardian. Use their strengths. Edited August 3, 2013 by Hockaday