July Assassin Questions - Let's Start her up!

[DarthSpekulatius]

From the Austin Peckenpaugh interview on 25 march 2013:

 

he doesn't even mention: agent/smuggler no AOE damage through Orbital/XS

 

the execute doesn't nearly compensate for stuff like that and thats far from the only thing in that interview that's half knowledge at best and could be interpreted as active misinformation just as easily.

 

how about a list of what affects the dps (outgoing&incoming) on actual OPS/PVP fights instead of playing with puppets?

 

sry for off-topic btw

Edited July 18, 2013 by DarthSpekulatius

[FuriCuri]

he doesn't even mention: agent/smuggler no AOE damage through Orbital/XS

 

I think that's because it's about single target, not AoE.

[DarthSpekulatius]

I think that's because it's about single target, not AoE.

 

that's exactly what I said "half knowledge at best..."

Edited July 18, 2013 by DarthSpekulatius

[FuriCuri]

that's exactly what I said "half knowledge at best..."

 

In the same quote:

 

There’s a good deal of additional context that can be added to these parses against training dummies, but I hope this clearly demonstrates how Assassin DPS has THE MOST to gain when switching from a simulated fight to a real fight.

[DarthSpekulatius]

In the same quote:

 

There’s a good deal of additional context that can be added to these parses against training dummies, but I hope this clearly demonstrates how any class with strong AOE, or less (no?!) Setup time requirement has THE MOST to gain when switching from a simulated fight to a real fight.

fixed

 

the other stuff he said is to long to quote and my English is to bad to properly rip it to pieces.

 

Austin: Changing the way Madness Assassins play was not an issue we took or take lightly. Changing numbers is a big enough deal for some players – changing gameplay is a huge deal for even more players.

then why did you...?

...

...

why?

 

we players take "Huge Deals" personal you know?

and do you know that we are petty vindictive *****es?

 

then why did you...?

...

...

why?

 

to keep my post from being totally off topic

vote for #1 Assassin/Shadow Question:

 

then why did you...?

...

...

why?

Edited July 18, 2013 by DarthSpekulatius

[insaneric]

Belanos: There is a fear amongst the community that low DPS parses versus other classes on PTS may lead to pigeonholing us into tanking. Of course, we only have limited data to go on. Could you clear this up: Are Assassin DPS specs reaching your targets?

 

Austin: Yes and no. If your measure of Assassin DPS is parses on a training dummy, you WILL see lower numbers than most other DPS specs.

 

...

 

Assassin-Deception No Assassinate; no armor debuff present; no Sith Executioner

Assassin-Madness No Assassinate; no armor debuff present; no Bloodletting

...

 

There’s a good deal of additional context that can be added to these parses against training dummies, but I hope this clearly demonstrates how Assassin DPS has THE MOST to gain when switching from a simulated fight to a real fight.

 

Furthermore, I must mention that when we do our internal playtests against real enemies with real group conditions, Assassins are in fact hitting our DPS targets. Our tests aren’t perfect, however, and we don’t test every fight or scenario with every spec, so we will be looking forward to seeing the results players provide for us. If things really aren’t looking good for Assassins, we won’t hesitate to make the necessary adjustments.

These points would account for maybe something like 10% damage increase in a real fight, putting them just below every other class (when they don't get their missing components). So the assassin's still behind.

 

On top of this assassins don't really bring any utility to the fight, sure they have some situational cooldowns, but the juggernaut does better. They can't fill in for a tank for a few seconds like a jugg or pt as they have light armor. No ability to offheal. They can stealth rez, but the operative does it better. And no raidwide buffs (armor debuff or stuff like bloodlust).

 

So all in all there's no reason to take a dps sin on a raid over another class in any situation.

[Kayriel]

A suggested question that pops into my head is : What are DPS assassins ( Deception especially ) supposed to be ?

By that i mean when the game started , the AC was presented as a lone wolf , doing high burst in pvp against 1 target and disappearing and doing spiky dmg in pve , but still constant and competitive with the rest of the ACs , especially in 1.7

Some of the talents in the trees feel like afterthoughts - charge mastery for Surging charge for example , 9% armor penetration , IMHO this was clearly meant to actually give us an armor debuf on our target but at the moment you don't even feel the difference.

Also , why was there a need to take our crit chance ? If the lone wolf , super high burst this still applies , why did you take that away , Depetion has great burst potential , but if you are unlucky ( like me unfortunately ) , and sometimes it happens that skills , even buffed with recklessness don't crit. then what ?!

The last question , would be , why was the radical change to both dps trees , made ? It completely changed the way assassin dps plays IMHO . Both in pve and pvp , we now have to depend on other peoples buffs and debuffs to succeed , which happened before , we relied on other people's abilities but we did not depend on them.

Deception got all its damage crammed into Maul , then followed by Discharge with 3 stacks for some reason , instead of having it spread out evenly upon our 3 main dmg skills ; and madness lost its ability to use Maul completely , which would be funny , if it would not have crippled the spec.

Edited for spelling mistakes

Edited July 19, 2013 by Kayriel

[Berjiz]

A suggested question that pops into my head is : What are DPS assassins ( Deception especially ) supposed to be ?

By that i mean when the game started , the AC was presented as a lone wolf , doing high burst in pvp against 1 target and disappearing and doing spiky dmg in pve , but still constant and competitive with the rest of the ACs , especially in 1.7

Some of the talents in the trees feel like afterthoughts - charge mastery for Surging charge for example , 9% armor penetration , IMHO this was clearly meant to actually give us an armor debuf on our target but at the moment you don't even feel the difference.

Also , why was there a need to take our crit chance ? If the lone wolf , super high burst this still applies , why did you take that away , Depetion has great burst potential , but if you are unlucky ( like me unfortunately ) , and sometimes it happens that skills , even buffed with recklessness don't crit. then what ?!

The last question , would be , why was the radical change to both dps trees , made ? It completely changed the way assassin dps plays IMHO . Both in pve and pvp , we now have to depend on other peoples buffs and debuffs to succeed , which happened before , we relied on other people's abilities but we did not depend on them.

Deception got all its damage crammed into Maul , then followed by Discharge with 3 stacks for some reason , instead of having it spread out evenly upon our 3 main dmg skills ; and madness lost its ability to use Maul completely , which would be funny , if it would not have crippled the spec.

Edited for spelling mistakes

 

Yeah why bring an assains dps at all? Pvp deception got some burst but neither madness or deception actually brings anything for pve that isn't better to replaced with somethign else. There is only stealth res and force shroud which is nice but no the reason to bring a class. And force shroud isn't super useful either anymore. The taunt is meh for offtank since it costs 100 force to switch stance and we have light armour.

 

Except for them there is no utility that an assasin dps brings and since their dps usually is sup-par with no aoe there is even less reason to bring one. All other dps classes bring something that is more useful, has morea aoe and does more dmg(possibly with the exception of powertech and operative dps).

Edited July 19, 2013 by Berjiz

[TLCuddy]

Would it be terrible or unbalance us if we got Force pull across the board instead of speccing into it. Really I feel like the DPS assassin should get quicker CDs on out abilities, if we're not going to be the big heavy smashing hits, then we should be able be able to get our medium hitters off faster than any other AC to allow us to get more actual DPS. Unless the experts, I am sincere I haven't put a lot of time in to studying and this is my first MMO, believe that would OP our AC!

[Xinika]

Would it be terrible or unbalance us if we got Force pull across the board instead of speccing into it.

Though not necessary now, perhaps in another x-pac this may be a possibility. As it stands, it's not needed at the moment and we have other worries that plague us.

[Griad]

I still think that a minor bleed or lingering discharge effect in the deception tree would do wonders for the sustained dps or up the damage from 3-6% damage during the execute phase to 4-8%, so we truely can reel in the dps we are behind if not more.

 

For madness maybe increase damage on assassinate by 3-6% in the bloodletting skill box

[Griad]

Yeah why bring an assains dps at all? Pvp deception got some burst but neither madness or deception actually brings anything for pve that isn't better to replaced with somethign else. There is only stealth res and force shroud which is nice but no the reason to bring a class. And force shroud isn't super useful either anymore. The taunt is meh for offtank since it costs 100 force to switch stance and we have light armour.

 

Except for them there is no utility that an assasin dps brings and since their dps usually is sup-par with no aoe there is even less reason to bring one. All other dps classes bring something that is more useful, has morea aoe and does more dmg(possibly with the exception of powertech and operative dps).

 

Operative dps is quite good now i love dps on my lethality specced operative they are in alot better place than they used to be and can if played right deal some truely nice damage.

[Kitru]

There’s a good deal of additional context that can be added to these parses against training dummies, but I hope this clearly demonstrates how Assassin DPS has THE MOST to gain when switching from a simulated fight to a real fight.

 

This is one of the things that's always perturbed me about the devs' distaste for dummy parses. It's actually not that hard to directly account for any of those missing factors in dummy parses.

 

First off, all K/E damage gets bumped up by 7.7% to account for the armor debuff (going from 35% DR to 30% DR), but, then again, this is nowhere *near* unique for Assassins since a lot of the other top DPS gets just as much (if not more) benefit from it thanks to higher K/E damage ratios.

 

For the execute range talents, Deception gets a flat 1.8% increase to account for Sith Executioner (6% for 30% of NPC's lifespan), and Madness gets a 4.5% increase to Death Field and DoTs for Bloodletting (15% * 30%).

 

Assassinate is a bit more complex but still pretty easy to factor once you've done some basic math. Since it just replaces roughly one out of every 2 Double Strikes or Voltaic Slashs while it's available, you simply increase the damage dealt by those abilities by 15% (50% of uses * 30% of the time) of the difference between the relevant abilities. With passive talents factored in, Assassinate deals ~82% more damage than Double Strike or Voltaic Slash (Claws of Decay increases the average damage of Double Strike to be equal with the increased baseline damage of Voltaic Slash), which means that, to account for Assassinate, you simply increase the damage on Double Strike and Voltaic Slash by 13.2% (.15 * .82).

 

Now, we'll take the #1 Shadow Dummy parse (the #1 Assassin dummy parse manages slightly more DPS but uses Force Lightning for fully one-third of its total damage, which means it will be getting less from the multipliers and screw up the end numbers, even with its 60 higher baseline DPS) and apply said math to it to factor out the stuff that Peckenpaugh was saying would boost us up to amazing. It's a Balance (Madness) parse so we apply that math to it:

 

Assuming that there is no armor debuff present (which we can't know but the best parses generally do anyways but, since we can't be for sure, we're going to assume it's not there for an absolute best case), 75.87% of total damage is increased by 7.7%, for an end multiplier increase of 5.84% to total DPS.

 

DoTs and FiB (Death Field) comprise 49.27% of total damage (10.05 + 10.6 + 13.52 + 15.1). We pump that up by 4.5% for a 2.217% increase to total DPS.

 

Double Strike is 25.38% of total damage. For Spinning Strike (Assassinate), we increase that by 13.2% for a 3.35% increase to total DPS.

 

To put it all together, this dummy parse would deal 111.7% ((1+.02217+.0335)*5.84) of its listed damage "in practice". An 11.7% increase in total DPS would equate to 3066 DPS from 2745, which pushes credulity since a *lot* of that damage is predicated on the unknown of whether the armor debuff was present. I'm relatively confident that the listed parse was packing the armor debuff (since pretty much *every* top parse does), which would mean that it would really be dealing 105.567% of listed DPS (1 + 0.02217 + 0.0335), for an end value of ~2900.

 

So, we get 2900 with everything we're short of factored in. Compare that to the 2900/2925 that Guard/Juggs manage, the ~3150 for Sent/Maras, 2900 for Sage/Sorcs (one Sorc managed 3100, which was 200 higher than anything else, which seemed suspect), 3100 for Mercs/Comms, 2900-3000 for PT/VGs, 3300-3500 for GS/Snipers, and 2900-3200 for Scoundrels/Ops, none of which are receiving the given inflationary benefits I've provided to Shadows. Even if you go conservatively at a 2-3% increase to the DPS of others (i.e. Shad/Sins get twice as much benefit from Execute range), Shad/Sins are still 75-100 DPS behind the next closest.

 

Honestly, the whole argument of "Shad/Sins get more which pulls them up to equal" is pretty much entirely facetious. Yes, they get more, but the fact that those benefits are so comparatively *small* means that they don't actually get as much as promised.

Edited July 30, 2013 by Kitru

[thejollygreenone]

So, we get 2900 with everything we're short of factored in.

 

All that math aside, from my experience it doesnt seem to be, really, as much of a bonus as the math comes out to be. Show me, for example, a parse of thrasher hm where a sin/shadow does 2900 dps. We both know it's very possible to keep up dps through firebugs if those on the top of torparse even got one. But i digress, your point and my own are very similar, i'd just like to say i think that the bonus (through whatever circumstances) may be less than the math has shown to be, and that our dps may need a little more work than it's being made to look like.

[Kitru]

All that math aside, from my experience it doesnt seem to be, really, as much of a bonus as the math comes out to be.

 

My point was that it *is* possible to suss out the practical benefits of phase based DPS increases based off of Dummy parses. The devs claiming that Dummy parses *aren't* legitimate tools for raw DPS-capability comparison is simply wrong. It just take 30 minutes of work to fix it.

 

The problem that *I* have, that I was trying to elaborate on with all of the math, was that the contributions of the factors that the developers believed would bolster Shadows up to the proper level are inflated in either the developers' minds or in their math, both of which indicate needed corrections.

 

As to the discrepancy between dummy DPS and practical DPS that's, honestly, to be expected. Everyone experiences a DPS drop in practical circumstances. Dummy parsers are really just supposed to demonstrate the raw DPS capability of a class in non-theoretical circumstances. Basically, they're a step above raw theorycrafting (which is what the devs seem to use almost exclusively for their balance calcs) and just below actual fight parses on the scale of practical functionality v. theoretical functionality because they add in the human factor but remove fight complications.

 

They're, honestly, the best analytics for real DPS balance. Raw theory ignores too many practical variables, like the level of absolute precision required for some specs to achieve functional DPS (like seen in Madness/Balance; DoT reapplication for it is *crazy* unforgiving and one of the biggest reasons why it has *never* gotten as close to its theoretical DPS as every other spec manages), and actual fight parses include too many variables that have to be removed to arrive as the needed ST equivalence.

 

Any suggested tweaks really should take the relevant dummy parses and attack/damage breakdowns into consideration. The breakdown math on the "nonstandard" benefits just provides tools for properly adjudicating fixes that will actually impact the class properly.

[thejollygreenone]

The devs claiming that Dummy parses *aren't* legitimate tools for raw DPS-capability comparison is simply wrong. It just take 30 minutes of work to fix it.

 

i'll clarify an restate, i agree with at least 90% of what you've said over this past month of suggestion inflation due to the rep system. i suppose i was just offering my standpoint from one who's primary concern lies in the outcome, ie how the class ends up playing. i'm a big picture kind of guy ^.^

regardless i'll restate one more time, we want the same things. sin/shadows pve dps needs some serious work, primarily, as some people have brought up, including yourself, is the precision required to achieve max efficiency for this class is near impossible to make consistent, mainly imo because both specs have awkwardly fitting sequences of abilities.

[ConCube]

To make it balanced for PvE- and PvP-players we need to change the following (in my opinion):

 

Deception

 

Sith Executioner

Increases all damage dealt to targets below 30% of their health by [5%/10%]. Additionally Discharge in Surging Charge has a [7.5%/15%] chance per stack of Static Charge to give you the effect 'Executioner', finishing the active cooldown of Assassinate, giving it a [50%/100%] chance to crit and make it usable at a target with any % of their health. Cannot occur more than once every [20/15] seconds.

 

Chain Shock

Activating Shock has a [20%/35%/50%] chance to activate a second Shot, dealing [25/50/75]% of normal damage.

 

Impose Weakness

Low Slash and Spike have a 100% chance to decrease the targets accuracy by 20% for 10 seconds.

 

Crackling Blasts

When Maul crits, it has a [50/100]% chance to apply Crackling Blasts, dealing 1000 damage over 6 seconds.

 

 

Madness

 

Bloodletting

Increases the damage dealt by Death Field and periodic effects by [7.5/15]% on targets below 30% of their health. Additionally if your Death Field crits, it has a [50/100]% chance to give you the effect 'Bloodletting', making Assassinate usable on a target with any % of their health. This Assassinate applies a periodic effect, dealing 1200 damage over 12 seconds. Cannot occur more than once every 15 seconds.

 

 

Just a few ideas, tell me your opinion and together we'll come up with convertible suggestions!

 

To be continued ...

[vVvCheese]

The PvE concerns that should be addressed are Assassin spikiness as a tank, and utterly lackluster damage with almost no utility as a DPS.

 

There is plenty of posted evidence (with numbers I provided) in the tanking forum to give solid information on the spikiness issue, which doesn't need to be completely expanded upon here.

 

The damage issue seems to have been touched on already, but deception's always just slightly too small force pool is its major concern in a PvE setting (buff regen, or the talents that grant force, or any number of things to fix it). Madness is relatively competitive, but isn't rewarded for its lack of utility (mediocre AOE damage, and a stealth rez pale in comparison to the utility offered by a mara or the strong aoe and ease of weaving in and out of melee from an OP [which also has a stealth res and offheals]. Madness assassins have less damage than a sniper, less AOE than a sniper, are squishier than Marauders, and don't have raid-wide protection or damage buffs. Madness discharge giving a damage reduction/accuracy debuff/increase to damage taken may be a nice fix there. As far as deception utlity, I do like the suggestion someone made earlier about low slash applying some kind of debuff, though I'm not sure accuracy is the way to go. I'd like to see low slash increase damage taken by the target by X% even if the target isn't stunned by the low slash. Overall damage dealt could be reduced by some fraction of that % so we don't turn into the only DPS ever wanted for melee.

 

As far as PvP, I'm not sure it's a bad thing that madness isn't "viable". Rage maras are never seen in high-level PvE content (except for smashing warlords, but any strong aoe can do that just fine and that's a fringe case), and lethality is less than ideal for a DPS operative in PvP. Some specs can just be better or worse in PvP or PvE, and I don't think that's necessarily an issue that we should "waste" a question on. Most assassin players, I think, would be very happy to have a viable PvE damage spec (bonus points if both become playable), a viable PvP spec, and a tank spec viable for both PvP and PvE.

 

PvP Assassin tanks are off-noders, and I don't see an issue with that, they are well-designed to babysit an objective, and someone has to do it. Darkness offers pretty great utility for the current WZ setups with phase, stealth, pull, and a guard for a carrier or healer, while still doing the most damage of the tanks by far. I don't think Darkness is designed to be a PvP main-tank spec, and that's okay. Some classes can be better at some things than others. For smaller scale PvP (upcoming arenas, random open world PvP, and things like the battles for the pylon during the Gree event), Darkness assassins in DPS gear can absorb a pretty good beating and peel well for healers or another high value target while still being easy to heal.

[stephenalandavie]

PVE and PVP should be dealt with in equal measure, At least 1 question should be devoted to PVE and 1 to PVP the spare question should be for any pressing issues tbh. In this case it would be the balance skill tree question which is for both PVE and PVP so that could take the spare slot?.

 

Just a thought

 

Something with SS/Maul Needs to be put into the Madness tree as that tree currently as it stands is just a joke

Edited August 1, 2013 by stephenalandavie

[Avicii]

Gudarzz posted this in the Mar forums which was sent to him by Eric as an example of how to present the questions. (TY Gudarzz)

 

This is useful info to know, sorry if I missed it elsewhere here.

 

Bad example: You guys are aware that we suck in PvP right?

 

Good example: We feel that in general our class lacks some utility and cc in comparison to other classes in Warzones. As an example (your reasoning), do you guys feel we are in a good place here? Do you also feel this is an issue?

[Griad]

The PvE concerns that should be addressed are Assassin spikiness as a tank, and utterly lackluster damage with almost no utility as a DPS.

 

There is plenty of posted evidence (with numbers I provided) in the tanking forum to give solid information on the spikiness issue, which doesn't need to be completely expanded upon here.

 

The damage issue seems to have been touched on already, but deception's always just slightly too small force pool is its major concern in a PvE setting (buff regen, or the talents that grant force, or any number of things to fix it). Madness is relatively competitive, but isn't rewarded for its lack of utility (mediocre AOE damage, and a stealth rez pale in comparison to the utility offered by a mara or the strong aoe and ease of weaving in and out of melee from an OP [which also has a stealth res and offheals]. Madness assassins have less damage than a sniper, less AOE than a sniper, are squishier than Marauders, and don't have raid-wide protection or damage buffs. Madness discharge giving a damage reduction/accuracy debuff/increase to damage taken may be a nice fix there. As far as deception utlity, I do like the suggestion someone made earlier about low slash applying some kind of debuff, though I'm not sure accuracy is the way to go. I'd like to see low slash increase damage taken by the target by X% even if the target isn't stunned by the low slash. Overall damage dealt could be reduced by some fraction of that % so we don't turn into the only DPS ever wanted for melee.

 

As far as PvP, I'm not sure it's a bad thing that madness isn't "viable". Rage maras are never seen in high-level PvE content (except for smashing warlords, but any strong aoe can do that just fine and that's a fringe case), and lethality is less than ideal for a DPS operative in PvP. Some specs can just be better or worse in PvP or PvE, and I don't think that's necessarily an issue that we should "waste" a question on. Most assassin players, I think, would be very happy to have a viable PvE damage spec (bonus points if both become playable), a viable PvP spec, and a tank spec viable for both PvP and PvE.

 

PvP Assassin tanks are off-noders, and I don't see an issue with that, they are well-designed to babysit an objective, and someone has to do it. Darkness offers pretty great utility for the current WZ setups with phase, stealth, pull, and a guard for a carrier or healer, while still doing the most damage of the tanks by far. I don't think Darkness is designed to be a PvP main-tank spec, and that's okay. Some classes can be better at some things than others. For smaller scale PvP (upcoming arenas, random open world PvP, and things like the battles for the pylon during the Gree event), Darkness assassins in DPS gear can absorb a pretty good beating and peel well for healers or another high value target while still being easy to heal.

 

All specs should be equally in PVE, however dot specs will always be a little less usefull for pvp because of the cleansing. Players should not be pigeonholed into a certain spec if they want to dps for high end ops..

 

Same cant be said about tanking lol.

[ConCube]

Idk but today the questions have to be formulated, don't they?

[jackrunip]

In regards to madness: Do you think it would be possible for the spec to be reverted back to it's "too complex" state.

 

We’re confident that the changes we’ve made will actually make Balance Shadows a more attractive option to players that were previously turned off by their complexity.

 

 

I feel like Shadow Strike should play a part of our rotation. Seeing as the Operative DOT spec can use Backstab without a huge cut of their resources. Their opener even provides Tactical Advantage (2% damage buff), ours adds no benefit besides the 2 second knockdown.

 

Lambaste also needs a rework, applying lightning charge to all enemies hit would be better than a one-time, off time-limit application of lightning charge damage.

 

Frankly, I liked the spec when it felt difficult to play, instead of a mindless, tab-dot, fluff damage tree.

Edited August 1, 2013 by jackrunip

[Xinika]

From what's gathered so far. If you were to select which one is more important, which will it be?

 

PvE

Deception's Low DPS, Madness Tune-up or Tank Spikiness?

PvP

Madness Tune-up or Lackluster Tanking?

[vVvCheese]

From what's gathered so far. If you were to select which one is more important, which will it be?

 

PvE

Deception's Low DPS, Madness Tune-up or Tank Spikiness?

PvP

Madness Tune-up or Lackluster Tanking?

 

Tank spikiness.

 

PvP Darkness (though I think there are more pressing concerns).

 

Consider rolling the madness tune-ups together into a pvp/pve hybrid question.