3 questions to help PT's

[bbrooks]

Saw this in the sniper forums and thought it was a brilliant idea. Paowee is compiling a list of Slinger/Sniper questions all in one place, for easy access to whoever the eventual rep is. It looks like he's planning on having a vote on which 3 questions to ask, but I'm not sure it has to be that much. I think what is needed is a place for people to just share their ideas for questions, making it easy for whoever the eventual rep is to gauge the community opinion.

 

If I see recurring questions, I'll add them to the OP, for easy viewing.

 

As I don't really play dps PT (not for lack of effort or enjoyment, but because I've been relegated to tanking) I will keep the first suggestion to Shield Tech. (I also posted something similar in the rep thread)

 

Shield Tech

 

bbrooks

 

"Pre 2.0 PT tanks had the highest passive mitigation and made them the smoothest tanks to heal, while taking slightly more damage than others, Post 2.0 juggs inn combat have a higher DR thanks to the crushing blow buff giving them the smoothest incoming damage, on top of having absolutely unreal defensive CD's. What is the point of bringing a PT tank of equal skill, and what can be done to give the PT tank back some sort of uniqueness and make them desired in PVE again, and put them on par with juggs in PVP. Any chance of getting another CD, maybe attached to Explosive fuel or HO?"

 

Sardonyyx

 

Improve the Defensive Cd's we have, lowering Rebounder to the bottom of the AP is a good start, gives all PTs a little extra defense, and a nice reduc on the long cd that is Energy Shield. In addition, Heat Screens should again need 4 stacks, and then it should let you fire heat blast, also their absorption should be buffed back to 2% each. Make the AOE from Rail shot generate as much threat as Discharge (assassin high aggro attack on a 10 sec cd I believe)

 

Advanced Prototype

 

ScytheEleven

 

While Advanced Prototype certainly got a sufficient DPS increase for the PVE realm, it's "unique" feel was lost when the entire Bounty Hunter class was given access to Hydraulic Overrides. In it's place, AP was given the same thing as Arsenal Merc: a 4 second duration boost to the ability. Many AP players feel cheated in this sense, and wish to see an upgrade in their tree, preferably one that gives some sort of CC immunity while casting flamethrower (at 3 stacks, of course).

 

Multiple

 

Ap needs something to make flamethrower more user friendly. Some have suggested Flame engine be moved lower in the Shield tree, others have suggested CC immunity during the channel. Either way, in PVP and to a lesser extent in PVE, it seems like it makes AP a little bit unwieldy

 

 

Pyro

 

ScytheEleven

 

A full Pyrotech build has not been viable in PVE since the changes in 1.4, and many in PVP abandoned a full build as well. The DoT change to Thermal Detonator did increase its overall damage potential, however it's "burst" was severely neutered and thus is no longer even a consideration for PVP. For PVE, many players either spec into a hybrid, or just don't take Thermal Detonator at all. Could we see some sort of synergy in the tree worked out, perhaps giving Thermal Detonator some of it's initial kinetic damage back and giving it's DoT the ability to give Rail Shot an additional 15% armor penetration (matching the armor penetration levels from pre-2.0)?

 

Blitz-wing/Brunner-Venda

 

Pyro was turned into a DoT class, but does not have the defensive CD's to allow the damage to build up. Is PT survivability going to be enhanced? A new cooldown? Moving Energy Rebounder to bottem tier? (Reworking Kolto Overload as well) Can we please get a 1% self-heal attached to the pyro powertech 'automated defenses' skill when a DOT crits?

Edited July 13, 2013 by bbrooks

[ScytheEleven]

These are the three questions I suggested (I suggested them more-so to show how I think each tree should get a question, but I feel they are worthwhile nonetheless).

 

1) Shield Tech: In the past, Powertech's were the superior passive mitigation tanks. Post 2.0, they are equal to Juggernauts but lack the cooldown versatility. While the damage mitigation numbers might appear mathematically equal, the utility factor strongly favors a Juggernaut. Is there any chance that Powertech's can expect some sort of new cooldown, perhaps one that resists force/tech for a short amount of time (similar to how Shadows/Sins have Resilience/Force Shroud and Guard's/Juggs have Saber Reflect)?

 

2) Advanced Prototype: While Advanced Prototype certainly got a sufficient DPS increase for the PVE realm, it's "unique" feel was lost when the entire Bounty Hunter class was given access to Hydraulic Overrides. In it's place, AP was given the same thing as Arsenal Merc: a 4 second duration boost to the ability. Many AP players feel cheated in this sense, and wish to see an upgrade in their tree, preferably one that gives some sort of CC immunity while casting flamethrower (at 3 stacks, of course).

 

3) Pyrotech: A full Pyrotech build has not been viable in PVE since the changes in 1.4, and many in PVP abandoned a full build as well. The DoT change to Thermal Detonator did increase its overall damage potential, however it's "burst" was severely neutered and thus is no longer even a consideration for PVP. For PVE, many players either spec into a hybrid, or just don't take Thermal Detonator at all. Could we see some sort of synergy in the tree worked out, perhaps giving Thermal Detonator some of it's initial kinetic damage back and giving it's DoT the ability to give Rail Shot an additional 15% armor penetration (matching the armor penetration levels from pre-2.0)?

[bbrooks]

Looks like our tank tank suggestion is fairly similar, but ill add the AP/Pyro suggestions. Feedback appreciated

[Boch]

For pyro I think IM needs to be looked at. Its damage should be increased and Id like to see it have a 50% slow.

[Blitz-wing]

PvP: Survivability of the DPS tree's (more so Pyro) is almost non-existent but the 2.0 nerfs resulted in no meaningful burst damage. Is PT survivability going to be enhanced? A new cooldown? Moving Energy Rebounder to bottem tier? (Reworking Kolto Overload as well)

 

PvE: Utility is lacking for a average damage dealing AC, is there plans to increase the utility of the PT to increase their viability & desirability to be taken in endgame content (Hard mode/Nightmare mode).

 

Both: Burst dmg was Nerfed hard on 2.0 release for Pyro spec & all seemed to come from the PTS hybrid. AP is still lacking single target burst. Is the any plans to increase the burst of the PT dps tree's?

AP - Flame Engine. would work for Pyro too.

Pyro - Increase Rail Shot dmg or Armor Pen with DoTs on the target.

Edited July 12, 2013 by Blitz-wing

[ScytheEleven]

I'll be the first to say I do not like the idea of moving Flame Engine out of the Shield Tech tree.

 

Having tanked operations solely on my PT since 2.0, Flame Engine is a vital threat generator and heat regen ability. Moving it out of the Shield Tech tree would gimp the spec.

[dijskykiller]

What is the point of bringing a PT tank of equal skill, and what can be done to give the PT tank back some sort of uniqueness and make them desired in PVE again, and put them on par with juggs in PVP. Any chance of getting another CD, maybe attached to Explosive fuel or HO?"[/color]

 

I like the idea of adding something on EF or HO. I would like to add that flame engine can be replaced by something else as it is not viable for pvp. Staying alive is important than a quick fluff damage on an 18 sec lockout.

[Blitz-wing]

I'll be the first to say I do not like the idea of moving Flame Engine out of the Shield Tech tree.

 

Having tanked operations solely on my PT since 2.0, Flame Engine is a vital threat generator and heat regen ability. Moving it out of the Shield Tech tree would gimp the spec.

 

I never said to move it, just that it would increase the burst of the AP tree & that it's an idea of how to fix the lack of burst that is crippling the spec.

Dropping it down to a lower tier which would allow all 3 spec's to use it could fix the lack of burst both dps spec's. Add a knockback immunity & a slow to PTF & AP seems gtg, to me at least.

Edited July 12, 2013 by Blitz-wing
fix & expanded on PFT additions

[Brunner_Venda]

2) Advanced Prototype: While Advanced Prototype certainly got a sufficient DPS increase for the PVE realm, it's "unique" feel was lost when the entire Bounty Hunter class was given access to Hydraulic Overrides. In it's place, AP was given the same thing as Arsenal Merc: a 4 second duration boost to the ability. Many AP players feel cheated in this sense, and wish to see an upgrade in their tree, preferably one that gives some sort of CC immunity while casting flamethrower (at 3 stacks, of course).

 

3) Pyrotech: A full Pyrotech build has not been viable in PVE since the changes in 1.4, and many in PVP abandoned a full build as well. The DoT change to Thermal Detonator did increase its overall damage potential, however it's "burst" was severely neutered and thus is no longer even a consideration for PVP. For PVE, many players either spec into a hybrid, or just don't take Thermal Detonator at all. Could we see some sort of synergy in the tree worked out, perhaps giving Thermal Detonator some of it's initial kinetic damage back and giving it's DoT the ability to give Rail Shot an additional 15% armor penetration (matching the armor penetration levels from pre-2?

 

AP: We still get a 20% speed boost on HO, and it lasts afew seconds longer for AP. We also got energy rebounder on top of all that. What AP needs is DPS, which brings me to my question.

 

AP is a DPS class that scrapes the bottom of the DPS barrel. Any chance the cooldowns will be reduced on rail shot or immolate? Any chance this DPS class will be able to consistently earn a 6K damage medal like every other DPS class in the game?

[Brunner_Venda]

I never said to move it, just that it would increase the burst of the AP tree & that it's an idea of how to fix the lack of burst that is crippling the spec.

Dropping it down to a lower tier which would allow all 3 spec's to use it could fix the lack of burst both dps spec's. Add a interrupt immunity to PTF & AP seems gtg, to me at least.

 

PTF is already immune to interrupts. It isn't immune to CC, stuns, knockbacks, and people just stepping aside or leaping away.

 

This brings me to my pyro question:

 

Do you plan on fixing the survivability of the pyro spec? We can take being turned into a DOT based DPS class, but DOT classes need better defensive cooldowns to live long enough to apply DOT damage. Automated defenses does nothing, and kolto overload still leaves your health in the range of everyone's execute abilities (or one single sniper/smash attack). You also took away energy rebounder, and did not replace it.

[Sardonyyx]

Re-work to shoulder cannon would be nice as well, either make them all load at once, or lower the cooldown on it.

 

Shield: while I don't see them giving us another cooldown, I hope that they improve the ones we have, lowering Rebounder to the bottom of the AP is a good start, gives all PTs a little extra defense, and a nice reduc on the long cd that is Energy Shield. In addition, Heat Screens should again need 4 stacks, and then it should let you fire heat blast, also their absorption should be buffed back to 2% each. Make the AOE from Rail shot generate as much threat as Discharge (assassin high aggro attack on a 10 sec cd I believe).

 

AP: immunity to interrupt for PFT is not a major concern IMO, and instead of that I would hope that they would add a little more *umph* to Retrac Blade, Immolate, and PFT (flame burst should not do more than 1 tick of PFT) and also a quicker channel on it as well, some are suggesting Flame engine, that would be nice, but I think just 1 sec off the Channel time in the talent itself would suffice.

 

Pyro : give us back the burst! Make TD desirable by it either doing a crap ton more damage, or cost the same amount as Immolate with a slight buff to damage. Add Armor Pen on Rocket Punch and Flame burst, slight increase to damage, and we don't rely on rail as much for big numbers, since they took 15% off it, put that onto FB and RP.

 

 

Just my two cents.

Not really in question form, but they could be phrased as such.

Hopefully this Class Rep thing is a step in the right direction and not just a funnel for more hate.

Edited July 12, 2013 by Sardonyyx

[wetslampigduex]

I don't understand why people who play pyro are yelling about Energy Rebounder... Both of the top specs.. PVP with TD and PVE without it passed on that skill to buff dmg(prior to 2.0).... Revert TD back to its original state and push the armor pen back up on RS and the class is fixed...IMO at least

 

Also those asking for heat cost reduction on IM... its not needed at all... PVE works perfectly into the rotation... PVP use only for burning Tanks or healers.. and if they cleanse don't bother re applying it

[Brunner_Venda]

I don't understand why people who play pyro are yelling about Energy Rebounder... Both of the top specs.. PVP with TD and PVE without it passed on that skill to buff dmg(prior to 2.0).... Revert TD back to its original state and push the armor pen back up on RS and the class is fixed...IMO at least

 

Also those asking for heat cost reduction on IM... its not needed at all... PVE works perfectly into the rotation... PVP use only for burning Tanks or healers.. and if they cleanse don't bother re applying it

 

Rebounder was great for PVP. It gives a redoubt proc that absorbs damage, and energy shield is up a LOT more, like three times as often. It may not have been useful fighting PVE bags of sand that sit there and die, but it's critical when fighting snipers and smashers. Right now pyro has NO spec defenses. It's bad. It's wrong. Go play a Mara or sniper and count all of the defenses they have.

 

The heat cost on IM is an issue, because the cost is way the hell out of line with the damage. When a healer cleanses a dot on someone that doesn't mean you shouldn't re apply it. Keep the pressure on. Make him run. Cause him to make mistakes. Make him hide or scamper away. Interrupt his next cleanse. The pyro triple DOT hurts. CGC alone sucks. TD alone sucks. CGC and TD together aren't enough.

 

The only other idea I have is to ask for a cull. Want to make us a DOT class? Go all the way and do it right.

[Chickensevil]

The only other idea I have is to ask for a cull. Want to make us a DOT class? Go all the way and do it right.

 

That works too. Could make RS that ability. Increase the damage done by RS based on the number of dots applied... and make it so we can keep the dots up all the time. This would MAKE us take and use TD in it's current condition since it would boost our primary damage too. Would make us bursty as well since you would have the dots. Might be a bit too much to go that far... but you could make TD be the TD AND Cull affect on RS... so you only get the boost at RS if you go all the way up the tree, and it can do say 5% per dot... up to 15% (might be overkill but just shooting out the numbers to give credence to the idea

[Melon_Lord]

That works too. Could make RS that ability. Increase the damage done by RS based on the number of dots applied... and make it so we can keep the dots up all the time. This would MAKE us take and use TD in it's current condition since it would boost our primary damage too. Would make us bursty as well since you would have the dots. Might be a bit too much to go that far... but you could make TD be the TD AND Cull affect on RS... so you only get the boost at RS if you go all the way up the tree, and it can do say 5% per dot... up to 15% (might be overkill but just shooting out the numbers to give credence to the idea

 

This would be too good to be true

[Canga]

My three suggestions to the questions,

 

I'm coming from a DPS PVE and PVP perspective, although I've tanked the odd FP and OPS I don't consider my self well aquatinted enough with the spec to suggest valid questions.

 

In PVE I've attempted all OPS modes of difficulty giving every valid spec a try, at the time of this post I'm ranked (on torparse) an averaged of top 6.4 of all power tech dps counting all TFB and S&V HM-8man bosses (ranking ranging between 1 to 14).

 

PVP wise I run regular none ranked solo matches and have fairly good gear to give a valid point of view from a PVP perspective.

 

Now to the questions:

1) Philosophy :

Ok, what are the power tech, are we a melee? are we ranged? are we medium ranged dps?

 

Our abilities gives a mixed impression, some are 30m, some are 10m some are 4m. Prior to 2.0 I'd put us in the melee to medium ranged dps, now I don't know. What pulled me to the class originally was to be able to dish out damage from both melee and ranged. If we're supposed to stay in range to deal good damage, give us a gap closer (no, hydraulic override or grapple don't cut it).

 

Either give us the capability to close the gap or give us the damage potential from range, having to navigate running through the red circles in phase three of dread guards nightmare mode really states that we don't know what we are.

 

2) Damage strategy:

The damage strategy of the two core specs isn't really clear nor effective (I won't touch hybrids as those are clearly meant as a flavor or personal preference, and not a design goal of the class). The DPS output of any spec in comparison to other classes in PVE and PVP environments has been mentioned numerous times so that wont be mentioned further in this post.

 

The AP is highly depending on close range and a static channel of the FT, sure, you can pull good numbers if the encounter has adds or on an unexperienced PVP crowed but where the damage counts it's not really ideal. Bosses move, people move. Not to mention the fact where AOE damage is not always working (Operator on cores) or is counter productive (Dread Guards). It's nothing wrong with a spec based around the flame thrower ability, it's an awesome looking ability and really bounty hunter stylish, but make it useful on single targets. A move while casting has been suggested and is a good one.

 

Pyro has been transformed into a semi dot spec without any punch.

The problem with dot specs is that you can't make the dots powerful enough without any added complexity, then it becomes a face roll spec. This is what happened to the pyro. Prior to 2.0 overheating was the only real challenge of the spec, put up two dots and rail shot.

Post 2.0 the main damage comes from dots and the difficulty has some what been increased as it moved from two to three dots to keep up, but the damage potential was lost in the process.

 

So, what is the damage strategy for the power tech and it's specs, as of now, neither are very effective in a competitive PVE or PVP environment.

 

3) Role:

The role of the class in any given spec is defined by it's abilities (again coming from a DPS perspective), is it:

- Glass cannon (high burst damage / low survivability)?

- Sustained damage (high damage up time (usually dots) / medium survivability?

- Survivor (medium damage through any means / high survivability)?

 

Ideally all of the three above should be possible by picking different skills or trees, but neither are as of today. The burst (glass cannon) was lost with the rail shot nerf. The sustained damage of pyro dps is not compensated with enough survivability and we have not the possibility to dps spec into a survivor mode (effective cool downs comes to mind).

[af_raptura]

Questions that affect all specs:

 

Almost all of our cool utilities (with the exception of Hydraulic overrides and Oil Slick) are are rather large cooldown timers by default

 

Energy Shield - 2 mins

Kolto Overload - 3 mins

Explosive Fuel - 2 mins

Shoulder Cannon - 1.5 mins + a considerable ramp uptime to load all the missiles

 

I have always felt that these were a little too long, thus questioning their usefulness in situations such as PvP (and probably PvE as well). Is there a reason why these need to remain so long? The energy shield cooldown is more tolerable with the AP Energy Rebounder talent. I realize that pyro also can spec for a cooldown reduction for Kolto

Overload, but the fact of the matter is that Kolto Overload isn't very strong either. Is there any chance the devs might look into this?

[Brunner_Venda]

Can the OP please update the questions?

 

The AP question is insipid and pointless. The pyro question is most likely DOA.

 

Here's another possibility for pyro, something they might do to really help:

 

Can we please get a 1% self-heal attached to the pyro powertech 'automated defenses' skill when a DOT crits?

 

As someone else posted; "The mechanic is already in the game. No new code should be needed for the mechanic as it already exists for 2 other DoT-based melee specializations (the Watchmen Sentinels/Annihilation Marauders and Balance Shadows/Madness Assassins). The mechanic would just need to be tied to the Automated Defenses/Adrenaline Fueled talent and the Assault/Pyro DoTs."

 

This would go a long way to fixing powertechs without overpowering us (because the other two classes above really aren't).

[bbrooks]

Sorry, was out of town the last few days, OP has been updated.

[Sardonyyx]

Big question for BW, do any of your staff still play the game? And if so do they play a powertech? Because I really feel like if they did we wouldn't be so behind in damage and tanking.

 

 

While this 3 question thing is good, its not going to help like we're hoping, and I just have a feeling that they're gonna give us half *** answers and tell us to deal with it.

 

If anyone from the staff plays they no doubt play a sniper and or smasher, because those classes are getting continuously buffed, while we get nerfed a little with every update. I'm pretty tired of not playing my favorite class in the game because he can't perform in NiM content.

Edited July 14, 2013 by Sardonyyx

[af_raptura]

While this 3 question thing is good, its not going to help like we're hoping, and I just have a feeling that they're gonna give us half *** answers and tell us to deal with it.

 

Yeah, maybe. How the combat team responds and the subsequent action will be telling as to whether or not they care about how we feel about our characters and this game as a whole.

[Ottoattack]

As a pyro player I will summarize the problems class currently face:

 

Problem 1, sustained damage:

Pre-expansion sustained damage relied on CGC, RS damage and critic rating. All three were nerfed big time. The additions to pyro tree, which are TD dot, IM and RS 6% damage, surge buff to flame burst and IM and SC run about 300-400 dps short from pre-expansion (considering same gear). Currently, the highest full parse is below 2,600 hundred, which other classes are putting in early 3K ranage. In simple terms, pyro is around 15% off from highest parsers.

 

Solution:

A significant buff is needed adding 300-400 dps either in periodic damage, burst or fillers. I think a balanced increase in all the them will improve the tree overall effectiveness (I will elaborate more below regarding burst). For sustained damage, instead of desgus (which is completely useless), a three point skill should be added making flame burst increase damage done by all fire effects and periodic effects by 4,6, 12%.

 

The 2 points adding in IM and RP damage increased from 3,6% to 5,10%.

 

IM cost reduced to 10 heat (so low for energy management that I will elaborate below), and its duration reduced from 18 secs to 15 secs while dot over all damage stays the same (more dps).

 

Problem 2, burst damage:

Pre-expansion, pyro PvP wise excelled in only in facet, individual target damage specifically burst. Needless to say, that much of dps effectiveness in PvP relies on the ability to kill the opposition ASAP. Pyro used to be really good in that aspect, and now is really terrible in that aspect.

 

Solution:

These have been mentioned like 25 million times, but RS armor penetration needs to be restored and TD needs the dot removed and base damage increased by 30-35%. This will make pyros damage desirable in PvP again, and has little to no impact in PvE.

 

Problem 3, survivability:

Among all dps classes, pyro PT is probably the weakest in survivabilty. Pyro was glass cannon, now is just glass. And even with the damage gimp, survivability was further reduced by moving energy re bounder to AP tree.

 

Solution:

Depending on how much burst is restored, survivability need to be adjusted accordingly. As mentioned before, kolto overload should be usable at 50%, NOT at execute range, which where it is already useless. Also, the skill that reduced kolto overload CD should restore 1% health when atked.

 

Problem 4, utility:

PvE wise it is none existent. That would not be a problem, except that damage also is pretty terrible. The utility in PvP is reasoable

 

Solution:

If pyro can dps around 3K on consistent basis, the need for utility is not much needed. If not, a reasonable update in utitlity in terms of providing damage for the group should be implemented to justify lower dps than other classes.

 

Problem 5, energy management:

The heavy dependency on RNG for energy management was always a problem for pyros. The tree heat management is very highly depend on PPA. Theoretically PPA should proc one every 4 globals. When that does not happen, you run into issues, so you either over heat or use regular atk way too often.

 

Solution:

As mentioned about, drop IM cost to 10 heat so it would be used as energy gain skill. Decrease heat override skill from 2 mins to 1 min.

 

 

Ideally, pyro should be parasing around 3K in regular basis. In addition, a slight increase in surviveability and restoring burst damage should restore most if pyro's capabilities in PvP,

[Mathemagica]

I want to suggest a question that doesn't really belong to only one tree. Basically I want to ask the same question for both dps-trees.

 

When 2.0 came out the devs posted a short summary about the class changes of every AC on the homepage. They briefly talked about what they changed in (almost) every tree and why. However, I seem to recall that they skipped some trees. Two of them were AP and Pyrotech (at least I never found any comments of the devs about the goals of the changes to these two trees). My question is: Could the devs give us a longer and more detailed version of these texts for AP and Pyrotech? About what they had in mind when they created the new AP and Pyro-trees back then and furthermore, what they think about those changes and the two dps-trees as a whole now? (ok two questions )

 

Yeah, that's all I can come up with right now. Remember, we can only ask questions and receive answers. I don't think that we can give suggestions for "fixes" and having answers won't "fix" anything.

[TheronFett]

I think others have hit the nail on the head.

 

PT has been reworked multiple times since launch. So much so, it's practically a different class now. We were once a ranged/melee hybrid with reasonable damage at all ranges. That was nerfed in exchange for high melee only burst. That was nerfed, and now PT is a melee AoE and DoT class. That's a pretty major shift, and no other class has had their entire role changed not once, but twice.

 

The most glaring problem is lack of defensive cooldowns and utility to make this a viable melee class. As it stands now, there is zero reason to take PT over any other class, especially in PvP. Grapple is currently our only claim to fame. Thermal Detonator is the weakest top tier talent in the game. Give the 30m range back to IM and TD, and I'd be fine with being a hybrid DoT class. As it is now, there is zero reason to fully spec Pyro.

 

AP is still wonky. PFT is a weak channeled DoT that is easy to sidestep. Make it instant cast, but a longer build up, like Smash, or give it an armor pen. Shieldtech is fine in my opinion.

 

Kolto Overload is utter crap now as well. With several classes having an execute @ 30% HP, it's nearly pointless to even bother trying to use it. If it's going to be kept as a HoT, then a heal needs to be added to DoT ticks as well.

[Marb]

These are definitely the 3 most burning questions I have (in the OP), so I don't have anything to add. Dedicating 1 question to each AC is a good format. Edited July 14, 2013 by Marb