A commentary on Subscriber Benifits

[Ashenti]

There is a very simple question that you need to ask yourself, which will address most of the concerns posted on these forums.

 

Do I enjoy Playing this game and do i think its worth what I pay?

Answer = yes then continue

Answer = No then play something else

[PhaseSpace]

That's missing the point. If Bioware wants to retain their subscribers then they have to make subscriptions worth something. It's not about the players' choice to stay or go, it's about Bioware's choice to retain the players.

[TheNahash]

Whenever I read or hear someone saying that "Feature X has lost its value because other people have access to it too", I'm sorry, but I just stop reading.

 

And I'm not talking about the OP.

 

Some things just reek of entitlement and an exaggerated sense of self-worth and I'm genuinely saddened that some people derive their sense of worth (or the worth of their possessions) not by the amount of people they are able to share them with, but by the amount of people they can exclude from also enjoying.

Edited July 6, 2013 by TheNahash

[RisenDragon]

But... but... but... we get nothing eeeeeeeeeeeeeextraaaaaa.... Waaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhh!

 

Sorry... couldnt resist.

 

Yeah, i feel that i get my value for those 13$ i pay. I dont get why everyone is whining about not feeling special for being a sub. Try not being a sub a while and you'll see...

 

I don't believe I've been 'QQing' at any point in this thread, nor have I been requesting anything 'extra.' My original post was only to compare what subscribers get for a (recurring) payment compared to what a premium or free player could get for a one-time purchase.

 

Since then I have commented on the apparent trend that the developers have been making in the released content and voiced my concerns about what such actions foretell for the future of the game. I also may have placed a suggestion for an action that would go towards reversing the growing trend of subscriber dissatisfaction.

 

I am glad that you are satisfied with your continuing purchase, and I hope that you remain so. The fact remains, however, that there is a loud selection of subscribers who are losing the same satisfaction that you have for the game, and that indication should be of some concern to the developers and their marketing team, as they represent a loss of income for the game, should they vote with their wallets and cancel their subscriptions and leave the game.

[RisenDragon]

Whenever I read or hear someone saying that "Feature X has lost its value because other people have access to it too", I'm sorry, but I just stop reading.

 

And I'm not talking about the OP.

 

Some things just reek of entitlement and an exaggerated sense of self-worth and I'm genuinely saddened that some people derive their sense of worth (or the worth of their possessions) not by the amount of people they are able to share them with, but by the amount of people they can exclude from also enjoying.

 

Thank you for acknowleding that I am not trying to state such.

 

I also dislike the overly entitlement-driven complaints that I've read in many threads, but I also understand the sentiment that drives some people to feel the need to complain about the current state of affairs- even if they are doing it improperly.

[Ashenti]

That's missing the point. If Bioware wants to retain their subscribers then they have to make subscriptions worth something. It's not about the players' choice to stay or go, it's about Bioware's choice to retain the players.

 

they are one and the same thing.

If players think the game is not fun or not worth paying for they will leave, Bioware is not retaining them.

 

this is a commercial product. The same as every other commercial product it is produced with the intention of making profit.

If consumers do not believe it worth while, they will not support it and it will not make profit.

if it does not make profit, the producers either have to change the product so that consumers do want it, or cut their loses and stop producing it.

 

It really does boil down to the simple thing :-

Enjoy - play

Don't enjoy - Don't play

 

consumerism, supply and demand fiscal frameworks and the great God fo profit will deal with the rest.

[RisenDragon]

they are one and the same thing.

If players think the game is not fun or not worth paying for they will leave, Bioware is not retaining them.

 

this is a commercial product. The same as every other commercial product it is produced with the intention of making profit.

If consumers do not believe it worth while, they will not support it and it will not make profit.

if it does not make profit, the producers either have to change the product so that consumers do want it, or cut their loses and stop producing it.

 

It really does boil down to the simple thing :-

Enjoy - play

Don't enjoy - Don't play

 

consumerism, supply and demand fiscal frameworks and the great God fo profit will deal with the rest.

 

Or, you could address the issues causing you to lose satisfaction with the service in an attempt to get it remedied so you aren't driven to stop supporting something that you otherwise would love.

 

You don't have to leave if you don't like something. That's defeatism and unproductive.

[Leafy_Bug]

Well I wouldn't exactly call 3 clicks to get PayPal payment through very difficult or time consuming

 

Oh really? When the EA gateway says to check back in one hour and the payment is still not done but paypal confirms it has been sent, EA has no record of it, you gotta call them sherlock. It is very time consuming to wait 2 hours for someone to pick up just for them to hang up on you and you call again and wait for another 2 hours.

Edited July 6, 2013 by Leafy_Bug

[RisenDragon]

Oh really? When the EA gateway says to check back in one hour and the payment is still not done but paypal confirms it has been sent, EA has no record of it, you gotta call them sherlock. It is very time consuming to wait 2 hours for someone to pick up just for them to hang up on you and you call again and wait for another 2 hours.

 

While my few experiences with SWTOR customer service has never been that bad, I agree with the sentiment.

[Ashenti]

Or, you could address the issues causing you to lose satisfaction with the service in an attempt to get it remedied so you aren't driven to stop supporting something that you otherwise would love.

 

You don't have to leave if you don't like something. That's defeatism and unproductive.

 

I don't believe it is defeatism, not in this situation where there are many other options to choose from (SWTOR is a pass-time, something to do that you enjoy, when you have spare time, and there are countless other ways to spend time)

No matter how you may feel about the situation, the simple rule of capitalism is profit is king.

The producers of Bioware have absolutley no concern for your happiness or contentment, any further than that happiness and contentment continuing to feed their coffers.

There is only one way to effect change and that is to use the power of your wallet.

[SithKoriandr]

3) Shadow/ Assasin Tank survivability issues fixed in the new Operations content (fyi they're getting randomly one shotted at %85 health)

 

While I'm not against improvements to Assassins/Shadows, I have to point out, you're not being one shotted when you're at 85% health. For one to be one shotted, they have to be at full health.

[SithKoriandr]

A thought does come to mind though...

 

Would TOR have been more successful if they put the effort into the game back then, that they've put into the Cartel Market now?

[RisenDragon]

I don't believe it is defeatism, not in this situation where there are many other options to choose from (SWTOR is a pass-time, something to do that you enjoy, when you have spare time, and there are countless other ways to spend time)

No matter how you may feel about the situation, the simple rule of capitalism is profit is king.

The producers of Bioware have absolutley no concern for your happiness or contentment, any further than that happiness and contentment continuing to feed their coffers.

There is only one way to effect change and that is to use the power of your wallet.

 

And indeed, it is the fact that the mentality that you are espousing is what seems to be the rule of the day for the developers at EA/BW that is causing many people to question their subscriber status. Why keep throwing money at an organization that does not appreciate your contribution? If all subscribers are to EA/BW is money numbers, then they will lose subscribers sooner rather than later, and that will cause them to lose income.

 

While the rule 'profit is king' is for the most part true, marketing skills in a consumer-based business requires the service provider to be able to entice their consumers to stay with their service. This is usually done by providing quality services, and exceptionally good businesses make their consumers feel happy to give their money to the business because they feel that the business is happy for their patronage. Anything else will cause the consumers to drop the service, and the business will lose its source of income.

 

Using your own argument, (Profit is King) BW/EA should want subscribers to remain subscribers, and even convince F2P and Premium players to upgrade to the subscriber experience, because doing so would generate additional profit for BW/EA. The only way to do that is to make the subscriber experience something that is enjoyable and worthwhile.

[RisenDragon]

A thought does come to mind though...

 

Would TOR have been more successful if they put the effort into the game back then, that they've put into the Cartel Market now?

 

We may never know.

 

Unless you know someone with a TARDIS.

[translucentwolf]

This is a game. It's got 'X' amount of content. 8 storylines to play through. Some endgame content. PvP for those that like that.

 

You can get the game for free. You pay nothing. Free... is Free.

 

If you're doing the f2p thing, an want to have 'more', you can pay 'more', via CCs, GTN purchases, or subs.

 

That's the bottom line people. New content will arrive, from time to time. Some will be free, an expansions ( a 5 level bump, is a 5 level bump, and was priced accordingly ) will cost you something.

 

If you can't deal with that, you may be happier somewhere else.

[OddballEasyEight]

I don't believe I've been 'QQing' at any point in this thread, nor have I been requesting anything 'extra.' My original post was only to compare what subscribers get for a (recurring) payment compared to what a premium or free player could get for a one-time purchase.

 

Since then I have commented on the apparent trend that the developers have been making in the released content and voiced my concerns about what such actions foretell for the future of the game. I also may have placed a suggestion for an action that would go towards reversing the growing trend of subscriber dissatisfaction.

 

I am glad that you are satisfied with your continuing purchase, and I hope that you remain so. The fact remains, however, that there is a loud selection of subscribers who are losing the same satisfaction that you have for the game, and that indication should be of some concern to the developers and their marketing team, as they represent a loss of income for the game, should they vote with their wallets and cancel their subscriptions and leave the game.

 

It wasnt in reference to you.

It was in reference to everyone thats complaining about not getting something "special" for their sub fee.

[bladorthin]

If you are playing the game regularly (as in daily), subscribing is a no brainer. However if you are playing the game casually (once or twice a week), then it becomes questionable as whether to you should stay subbed or not. If Bioware wants to retain more casual players as subscribers, then they should ante up.

[SkunkWerks]

Nice list.

 

If you are playing the game regularly (as in daily), subscribing is a no brainer. However if you are playing the game casually (once or twice a week), then it becomes questionable as whether to you should stay subbed or not. If Bioware wants to retain more casual players as subscribers, then they should ante up.

 

Mm, from a practicality standpoint maybe. I like this game and wish to support it- so I suppose to me there's really no question. I agree it's far from perfect, but I think it began in the right direction, and I think it has the potential to do more.

Edited July 6, 2013 by SkunkWerks

[Jeweledleah]

Whenever I read or hear someone saying that "Feature X has lost its value because other people have access to it too", I'm sorry, but I just stop reading.

 

And I'm not talking about the OP.

 

Some things just reek of entitlement and an exaggerated sense of self-worth and I'm genuinely saddened that some people derive their sense of worth (or the worth of their possessions) not by the amount of people they are able to share them with, but by the amount of people they can exclude from also enjoying.

 

missing a point.

 

feature x loses its value when people have access to it for free. why pay when you can get it for free?

 

and its not that subscribers want to exclude people, me at least I'd rather restriction of f2p version of the game were relaxed. its that people would like to feel like they are actually getting something out of their subscription fee that you cannot get for free - a bonus, an incentive, a better deal, something that justifies paying flat fee monthly instead of either paying completely free, or paying for specific features here and there, as you go.

 

if wanting to get value out of my money is entitled? then everyone who has ever bought things or services is entitled. seeing how they weren't just donating money, they were exchanging it for something in return.

 

to me this has nothing to do with self worth. my self worth comes from elsewhere. to me it comes from... is my $15 better spent on this subscription, or couple of humble bundles (for example)? what would give me a better value for investment of my limited entertainment budget?

[Andryah]

to me it comes from... is my $15 better spent on this subscription, or couple of humble bundles (for example)? what would give me a better value for investment of my limited entertainment budget?

 

So... what's the answer?

 

I know the answer in my case.

 

But you tossed the question out there and left it unanswered for you. Why?

Edited July 6, 2013 by Andryah

[Jeweledleah]

So... what's the answer?

 

I know the answer in my case.

 

But you tossed the question out there and left it unanswered for you. Why?

 

because I already answered it before? right now, to me its a better value for my money to spend it on some books or indie games or even not so indie game that's on sale or even occasional one time cartel coin purchase for whatever indulgences I might want (since there is no market discount for subscribers, I actually get more out of paying $10 for 1050 coins, rather than paying $15 for 525 I get with subscription.

 

I'm currently a subscriber by the virtue of still having time left over from the last time card that I bought. and this is not an ultimatum or a threat or anything like that - bioware will do what they think best, its merely a statement of the fact. with current subscription terms- its no longer worth it for me to keep paying subscription. whether they want to consider people like me and reevaluate how subscription works? I don't know. mind you - I'm not saying that game is bad. I like the game. I'm saying that subscription doesn't provide enough clear benefit over preferred account for someone who's been playing for as long as I have.

 

what am I going to do with these $15 though? well... I've noticed that BOrderlands 2 has been going on sale at various places. I missed the 6 hour $15 sale at green man gaming the other week, but steam sale is coming up soon. now that I'm finally done with first, might give sequel a go.

[CosmicKat]

But... but... but... we get nothing eeeeeeeeeeeeeextraaaaaa.... Waaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhh!

 

Sorry... couldnt resist.

 

Yeah, i feel that i get my value for those 13$ i pay. I dont get why everyone is whining about not feeling special for being a sub. Try not being a sub a while and you'll see...

 

A subscription payment model in pretty much every entertainment-related business is not just paying for content up to and including the date you started subscribing. If you subscribed to HBO today, you would be able to watch anything they made up to that point, and any future content from that point, for no extra cost.

 

The whole point to a subscription-based product is to give the provider of the product a stable revenue source, and for the customer it is to avoid "extra charges".

 

"Extra" is expected.

[TheNahash]

missing a point.

 

feature x loses its value when people have access to it for free. why pay when you can get it for free?

 

Let's say I write a book and you buy it and read it and think it's a 10/10.

If, after some time, I decide to give it out for free, does the book somehow become a 5/10 for you?

 

An item's (or a feature's) value is not affected by the number of people that have access to it, if there is no limited amount of that item/feature in which case more people would ultimately mean less chances for you to enjoy it.

 

Therefore, I repeat my original statement: no, an item or a feature does not suddenly lose part of its value just because more people get it.

You could argue that your SUBSCRIPTION loses the exclusive access to that feature but its value remains the same (which would only be partially true, anyway, because you still get some rewards that F2Pers don't, access to better gear and convenience items that make the experience better and you get normal XP for completing your class quests).

 

 

and its not that subscribers want to exclude people, me at least I'd rather restriction of f2p version of the game were relaxed. its that people would like to feel like they are actually getting something out of their subscription fee that you cannot get for free - a bonus, an incentive, a better deal, something that justifies paying flat fee monthly instead of either paying completely free, or paying for specific features here and there, as you go.

 

Let's just say that SOME subscribers don't want to exclude people. A F2P server so that subscribers won't have to deal with "annoying F2Pers" is not exactly what I consider an inclusive disposition

 

We do get all of the things you mentioned - bonus cartel coins that we can spend on the cartel market, convenience items that are not available to F2Pers, better deals on appearance customization, no restrictions in what you can and cannot do and how much of that you can or cannot do.

 

Yes, some people are not satisfied with what we're getting. I understand them, but I do not share that feeling. I am satisfied with what I get and I understand that the Cartel Market was a necessary evil to avoid shutting down the game altogether.

 

If people don't feel like they're getting their money's worth, then by all means, why not try playing as Preferred?

And I know that most people dismiss that notion with a simple "oh, just stop telling people to quit the game" but I'm honestly not saying that. My philosophy as a consumer, though, is that if I don't feel like I'm getting my money's worth I either leave or take advantage of any other ways to remain where I am without paying. If that works for some people, why is it so wrong to go preferred?

 

 

if wanting to get value out of my money is entitled? then everyone who has ever bought things or services is entitled. seeing how they weren't just donating money, they were exchanging it for something in return.

 

I never said people are "entitled" if they want to get value out of their money. But, value is a very subjective matter. I'm satisfied with what I get as a subscriber. Obviously, I wouldn't say no to more things, but I don't feel that I'm not getting what I'm paying for.

That said, yes there are a lot of people who are entitled. They cling on to the "subscription only" plan that was available at launch and demand that every little thing is given to them for free. That, I consider entitlement, yes.

And frankly, I keep asking but no one ever answers: can you name one thing that Bioware could put in their store that would make them the money they want and wouldn't have a part of the community screaming bloody murder that we are not getting it for free?

 

to me this has nothing to do with self worth. my self worth comes from elsewhere. to me it comes from... is my $15 better spent on this subscription, or couple of humble bundles (for example)? what would give me a better value for investment of my limited entertainment budget?

 

Well, I wasn't talking about you, specifically

You have to understand, though, that some people's self-worth comes from feeling superior to others. I'm sorry, but that's the truth. And I can't support that.

 

As for your question, you are the only one that can answer it for yourself. For me, the money I pay for my subscription are fine. I spend more than that for a night out, so a month's entertainment for less than a movie and a dinner, seems reasonable.

Edited July 6, 2013 by TheNahash

[Jeweledleah]

@ Nahash. your example is flawed.

 

allow me to explain.

 

I preordered this game. I paid full price for it. I paid $20 for the deluxe edition upgrade. I still feel like a got a good deal out of that and I don't begrudge it that people can now get the game for free and upgrade for $5 dollars. they didn't get to play the game back then, and I did.

 

however, what we are discussing here is ongoing payment. not a back payment - ongoing payment which you have to keep paying. like access to premium TV channels etc. so... if movies I could only see on HBO before are now available on other channels... why would I keep paying for HBO? back then, it was worth it. now? it isn't.

 

essentially it's like saying that its good value to STILL pay full release price of the game even though you no longer have to. its like saying that its good value to go out and pay full price of the book, even though you could have it for free now. it doesn't mean the book is bad or not worth reading. it just means its no longer worth paying full price for.

Edited July 6, 2013 by Jeweledleah

[TheNahash]

@ Nahash. your example is flawed.

Obviously, I don't think it is, but you have the right to disagree

 

however, what we are discussing here is ongoing payment. not a back payment - ongoing payment which you have to keep paying. like access to premium TV channels etc. so... if movies I could only see on HBO before are now available on other channels... why would I keep paying for HBO? back then, it was worth it. now? it isn't.

 

If movies are all you're interested in and they are now not only available to you, then there is no reason to keep paying for HBO, I agree.

However HBO still offers you some things like HBO on Demand or HBO Go that make the subscription worth it for some people. And correct me if I'm wrong (we don't have HBO where I live ) but don't you also get to watch the TV shows -which are arguably some of the best out there- when they first air?

The question is if they are good enough for you to remain subscribed.

If all you care about is movies, then I suppose no.

If you care about having the convenience to watch whatever movie or TV show whenever you want or be able to watch your favorite TV show without having to wait for the iTunes version or the Blu-ray, then I'd say yes.

But again, that's your call.

 

essentially it's like saying that its good value to STILL pay full release price of the game even though you no longer have to. its like saying that its good value to go out and pay full price of the book, even though you could have it for free now.

 

But...it IS good value to still pay for full access to a game you play even though you can play a more restricted version of the game for free.

You might not agree with F2P models (I don't either) but it is what it is. And between having annoying restrictions that would make me hate the game, I'd rather pay for it and continue to enjoy it.

 

Why can't you see that things like customer satisfaction and value are too subjective to put a yes/no sticker on them and think that it applies to everyone?

 

PS: As for the book, yeah. If you handed me the book for free it sure wouldn't be rational to go out and buy it. But how about if you made me climb to a mountain top to go and get it? and then have to read it upside down?

Edited July 6, 2013 by TheNahash