We Need Clarification

[NilethStar]

What are the details on Treek? Weapon? Stats etc? I am going to assume Cunning and Bowcaster.

 

Aim and Bowcaster

[Reno_Tarshil]

I do not know for certain, but I seem to recall hearing that they were changing it because it WAS selling story content, no matter how insignificant, on the CM. I'm sure if I'm wrong, someone will be here to correct me.

 

No the only thing they changed was taking away the credit boom in the cubes because it could be exploited. They are gonna release a second set of cubes in the next pack and that's it for cubes.

[Andryah]

You are ignoring the fact that one avenue of purchase has an ADDITIONAL requirement that the second avenue of purchase does not.

 

I'm not ignoring it at all. Wealth comes in this game by playing, just like Legacy levels do. It would be rare for a legacy 40 character to be unable to pay the credit fees for unlocks. We both know this to be true. Sure.. there are always some players that cannot manage in game wealth accumulation and are constantly in a state of poverty, but these players are simply failing at basic MMO play if that is the case....ESPECIALLY so in this MMO.

 

That said.. I am on record in nearly every thread this week pointing out that Legacy is an artifact system from an earlier era of the game (subscription only model) and that it was a mistake to ever put credit fees on Legacy unlocks EVER, and the system should be updated accordingly and remove all credit fees. If you have paid any attention to my posts this week.. you would of course already know this.

Edited July 6, 2013 by Andryah

[Korrlen]

There is a lot of posts in this thread which dance around a larger topic, which I think is pretty important to discuss.

 

When anyone plays an MMO, there is an unspoken social contract in place. This contract is laid out as such: The actions you do, characters you level, and items you obtain all have an intrinsic value. It is the MMO operator's responsibility to foster all of the the player's value they have accumulated. If the MMO operator undermines the players intrinsic value, it comprises the player's confidence in the game.

 

A simple example here - Someone who has leveled to Legacy Level 40+ likely has gone through 4 or more story lines to level 50. The player feels as if they put in a significant amount of real-life time, and it really is an accomplishment of sorts. This intrinsic value can be greatly undermined in several ways: Not having anything the player feels is 'worth it' in the later legacy levels, having the ability to boost legacy level artificially, having the same or similar rewards obtainable immediately by anyone (as is the case with Treek).

 

It's important to remember that when someone speaks out that their invested value has been arbitrarily diminished, they are not complaining. They are not 'elitist'. Most importantly, they care about the integrity of the game itself.

 

The Cartel Market/Coins are the easy target, however it's entirely the management of Cartel Coins, and not the coins themselves which is to blame here. It's entirely possible to have a form of real currency in a game, while not undermining the invested value of long time players -- though admittedly much tricker to balance.

 

Some suggestions I could offer:

• Keep Cartel Coin offerings on even footing. Coins should be an alternate way to purchase something given that all other variables are equal (same level or legacy level requirements, etc).
  
• Balance items along the gradient of players invested value. This means when adding an item immediately available to anyone via Cartel Coins, add something different higher up the 'invested value' gradient (only obtainable at a specific level, legacy level, raid / flashpoint completion, or any other metric).
  
• Whenever anything is added to the game, ask yourselves objectively: "Will this add to all player's invested value, or diminish it?".
  

 

One thing to keep in mind about the last point also: Just because someone doesn't meet the level requirement for a particular unlock, doesn't diminish it's value - indeed it makes it skyrocket once they achieve it! At this point, anything Bioware does to undermine the value of that specific unlock will severely hurt that player's confidence in the game.

 

Kian - The Harbinger

Edited July 6, 2013 by Korrlen

[Andryah]

But legacy will unlock the option to spend a million of those credits you earned, when you can just spend a few CC's for the same item. That's something, right?

 

One thing I always do is assess the economics of everything in game in the context of CC or credits. When presented with a choice to acquire with CC OR Credits.....there are things that it is silly to spend cartel coins on, and things it is silly to spend credits on. Different people will have different personal assessments for their needs, but it would be foolish to always go the CC route or always go the Credits route in this game.

 

For example: It's silly to purchase armor, weapons, or speeders from the CM for CCs, when they are readily available for credits from other players on the GTN.

 

For example: it would be silly to purchase the Ship GTN for 5M credits via legacy unlock when you can get the ship GTN for 900 CC.

 

For example: it would be silly to pay 425 CC to unlock improved speeder 1, when you can unlock it for 40K credits via legacy unlock.

 

The list goes on and on.

 

Smart players analyze and play smartly, and this is as important in terms of item economics as it is for being properly geared and prepared for an OP.

Edited July 6, 2013 by Andryah

[Ratajack]

I'm not ignoring it at all. Wealth comes in this game by playing, just like Legacy levels do. It would be rare for a legacy 40 character to be unable to pay the credit fees for unlocks. We both know this to be true. Sure.. there are always some players that cannot manage in game wealth accumulation and are constantly in a state of poverty, but these players are simply failing at basic MMO play if that is the case....ESPECIALLY so in this MMO.

 

That said.. I am on record in nearly every thread this week pointing out that Legacy is an artifact system from an earlier era of the game (subscription only model) and that it was a mistake to ever put credit fees on Legacy unlocks EVER, and the system should be updated accordingly and remove all credit fees. If you have paid any attention to my posts this week.. you would of course already know this.

 

First, you ignored it again, or at least tried to turn it around.

 

The point was not that if you wanted to purchase the companion with legacy 40, you had to spend a million credits. The point was that one method of payment (CC's) had NO additional requirement, but the other method of payment (credits) required you to have legacy 40 before you could even think about spending those million credits on the companion. Not very fair, is it?

 

Second, how about answering the ENTIRE post and all the questions/points raised? I'll save you the trouble of going back to look for the post. Here it is again:

 

You are ignoring the fact that one avenue of purchase has an ADDITIONAL requirement that the second avenue of purchase does not. Therefore those that use the second method of purchase (the one without the additional requirement) are "getting ahead" as they do not have to meet that additional requirement, and therefore may well get that new shiny before the person who chooses to PLAY the game rather than BUY the game.

 

How about if legacy 40 got you the pet for FREE, and those without legacy 40 could either pay a million credits or CC's to purchase the companion? That would give those with the higher legacy a REAL benefit, not simply the option to spend a million credits. It would also allow a true choice in method of payment for those who do not have legacy 40 to purchase the pet and not a heavily skewed choice intended to push them toward the CM, and not make it seem like such a cash grab.

 

I doubt that would happen for that very reason. A true choice would not provide as much incentive to use the CM and therefore would probably not bring as much revenue and would defeat the purpose of the cash grab.

[Andryah]

When anyone plays an MMO, there is an unspoken social contract in place. This contract is laid out as such: The actions you do, characters you level, and items you obtain all have an intrinsic value. It is the MMO operator's responsibility to foster all of the the player's value they have accumulated. If if the MMO operator undermines the players intrinsic value, it comprises the player's confidence in the game.

 

True.. however... MMOs evolve and change over time. As such.. they ALWAYS evolve in a manner such that what was valuable at one point in time to the player base.. becomes less valuable, or completely useless later on.

 

This does not happen with everything in every case inside and MMO, but for the most part..it does happen on a persistent, progressive, and notable level.

 

An expansion pack to an MMO being a classic case of this. Or a major patch. Or a change in the MMOs business model.

 

Players cannot stratify their view of MMO content and expect it not to change, evolve, and in many cases become obsolete without pacing with the evolution of the game. Ask any player that leaves and MMO and comes back a year or two later and finds everything their characters own to be effectively useless. A returning player sees it immediately and in a step function. Ongoing players see it more gradually in most cases, but the net change is the same.

Edited July 6, 2013 by Andryah

[Korrlen]

An expansion pack to an MMO being a classic case of this. Or a major patch. Or a change in the MMOs business model.

 

Indeed, perhaps it's time to get rid of this tired model then. In fact I've been waiting for a game to come along and do just this.

 

World of Warcraft was a big offender of this, once an expansion comes out, all previous content is essentially invalidated. What a shame, and waste of resources.

[Mark-JPS]

There is a lot of posts in this thread which dance around a larger topic, which I think is pretty important to discuss.

 

When anyone plays an MMO, there is an unspoken social contract in place. This contract is laid out as such: The actions you do, characters you level, and items you obtain all have an intrinsic value. It is the MMO operator's responsibility to foster all of the the player's value they have accumulated. If if the MMO operator undermines the players intrinsic value, it comprises the player's confidence in the game.

 

A simple example here - Someone who has leveled to Legacy Level 40+ likely has gone through 4 or more story lines to level 50. The player feels as if they put in a significant amount of real-life time, and it really is an accomplishment of sorts. This intrinsic value can be greatly undermined in several ways: Not having anything the player feels is 'worth it' in the later legacy levels, having the ability to boost legacy level artificially, having the same or similar rewards obtainable immediately by anyone (as is the case with Treek).

 

It's important to remember that when someone speaks out that their invested value has been arbitrarily diminished, they are not complaining. They are not 'elitist'. Most importantly, they care about the integrity of the game itself.

 

The Cartel Market/Coins are the easy target, however it's entirely the management of Cartel Coins, and not the coins themselves which is to blame here. It's entirely possible to have a form of real currency in a game, while not undermining the invested value of long time players -- though admittedly much tricker to balance.

 

Some suggestions I could offer:

• Keep Cartel Coin offerings on even footing. Coins should be an alternate way to purchase something given that all other variables are equal (same level or legacy level requirements, etc).
  
• Balance items along the gradient of players invested value. This means when adding an item immediately available to anyone via Cartel Coins, add something different higher up the 'invested value' gradient (only obtainable at a specific level, legacy level, raid / flashpoint completion, or any other metric).
  
• Whenever anything is added to the game, as yourselves objectively: "Will this add to all player's invested value, or diminish it?".
  

 

One thing to keep in mind about the last point also: Just because someone doesn't meet the level requirement for a particular unlock, doesn't diminish it's value - indeed it makes it skyrocket once they achieve it! At this point, anything Bioware does to undermine the value of that specific unlock will severely hurt that player's confidence in the game.

 

Kien - The Harbinger

 

You pretty much hit the right topics. I guess veterans, including myself, are indeed elitist and want the integrity of the game to remain the same. But seeing how Bioware needs money, it's bound to change one way or another.

 

Bioware needs to really balance it, even to elitist themselves. What BIoware is doing clearly shows they don't care about the veteran gamers at all.

[Andryah]

The point was not that if you wanted to purchase the companion with legacy 40, you had to spend a million credits. The point was that one method of payment (CC's) had NO additional requirement, but the other method of payment (credits) required you to have legacy 40 before you could even think about spending those million credits on the companion. Not very fair, is it?

 

1) I will respond to points I want to respond to.. stop lecturing me on how to respond to other posts with my comments.

 

2) As I have said, and continue to say... I do not agree with the credit soak on Legacy unlocks and believe they should be eliminated. They were bad design when they went live with them (and way before CCs), and they are bad design now. It was early in the games life and I understand that they were still adjusting a lot of economics throttles on the game in terms of credit issue vs sink. At that time, it probably looked harmless to them to put credit soaks on Legacy unlocks. However, I remain of the opinion that it was a mistake, it was bad design, and it should be fixed. If those credits soaks were never put in.... then it's legacy level vs CCs to unlock. Personally, I want to see them removethe credit soaks (even though it means that they will increase credit soaks somewhere else). I can afford to pay them.. but they are illogical, and were a design mistake to begin with.

Edited July 6, 2013 by Andryah

[Ratajack]

One thing I always do is assess the economics of everything in game in the context of CC or credits. When presented with a choice to acquire with CC OR Credits.....there are things that it is silly to spend cartel coins on, and things it is silly to spend credits on. Different people will have different personal assessments for their needs, but it would be foolish to always go the CC route or always go the Credits route in this game.

 

For example: It's silly to purchase armor, weapons, or speeders from the CM for CCs, when they are readily available for credits from other players on the GTN.

 

For example: it would be silly to purchase the Ship GTN for 5M credits via legacy unlock when you can get the ship GTN for 900 CC.

 

For example: it would be silly to pay 425 CC to unlock improved speeder 1, when you can unlock it for 40K credits via legacy unlock.

 

The list goes on and on.

 

Smart players analyze and play smartly, and this is as important in terms of item economics as it is for being properly geared and prepared for an OP.

 

Again, you miss the point of my post. A poster made the contention that there are no benefits to having a high level legacy, and I pointed out that at legacy 40 you unlock the option to spend a million credits on something that you can spend a few CC's to get. Since you cannot spend that million credits to purchase the companion UNTIL you hit legacy 40, this is obviously a benefit of having legacy 40. It's just a really lousy benefit.

 

The poster to whom I responded was pretty much correct, there really is NO benefit to having a high legacy if we still have to spend an exorbitant amount of credits as opposed to receiving the pet for free at legacy 40.

 

In my opinion, only a small percentage of people who even have legacy 40 will actually choose to spend the million credits as it probably makes much more sense to spend those few CC's, which is probably why BW is requiring legacy 40 and an exorbitant amount of credits to purchase it without using CC's. They are heavily pushing people toward the CM to obtain this companion in a pretty obvious cash grab.

 

If it truly were not a cash grab, they would allow people to pay the million credits OR the CC's at any legacy level and those with legacy 40 would receive the companion for free.

Edited July 6, 2013 by Ratajack

[Korrlen]

2) As I have said, and continue to say... I do not agree with the credit soak on Legacy unlocks and believe they should be eliminated. They were bad design when they went live with them (and way before CCs), and they are bad design now. It was early in the games life and I understand that they were still adjusting a lot of economics throttles on the game in terms of credit issue vs sink. At that time, it probably looked harmless to them to put credit soaks on Legacy unlocks. However, I remain of the opinion that it was a mistake, it was bad design, and it should be fixed. If those credits soaks were never put in.... then it's legacy level vs CCs to unlock. Personally, I want to see them removethe credit soaks (even though it means that they will increase credit soaks somewhere else).

 

MMO economics aren't terribly complicated I think (though I'm certainly not an expert). We have money flowing in: Killing mobs, and quest rewards. Then we have money flowing out: Taxes (such as repair costs), and money sinks.

Realistically, the money flowing in can be greater than what's flowing out (mild inflation) and that's fine. But you can't get rid of credit sinks without severely jacking up taxes.

 

I think a better solution would be to have a much larger variety of more reasonably priced credit sinks.

Edited July 6, 2013 by Korrlen

[Andryah]

The poster to whom I responded was pretty much correct, there really is NO benefit to having a high legacy if we still have to spend an exorbitant amount of credits as opposed to receiving the pet for free at legacy 40.

 

1) value is always subjective... based on an individual players preferences, views, and desires.

 

2) If a person refuses to accept and use CCs and the CM in this game, because they object to the business model, or <insert any reason you like here>..... then Legacy is the sole path for that player to unlock perks. There are all kinds of players in this game. Some even prefer the Legacy unlock path because it's a personal testament to themselves as to how they wish to achieve and progress in the game. Others believe differently.

 

To say that Legacy Unlocks have no value to the player base is as biased and incorrect as saying they are the holy grail of proper game progression. Extreme views of all kinds are generally unsound, and in the context of a virtual game environment designed for fun and enjoyment.. even more so IMO.

[Ratajack]

MMO economics aren't terribly complicated I think (though I'm certainly not an expert). We have money flowing in: Killing mobs, and quest rewards. Then we have money flowing out: Taxes (such as repair costs), and money sinks.

Realistically, the money flowing in can be greater than what's flowing out (mild inflation) and that's fine. But you can't get rid of credit sinks without severely jacking up taxes.

 

I think a better solution would be to have a much larger variety of more reasonably priced credit sinks.

 

Credit sinks are fine and even necessary, but they are COMPLETELY useless if BW is going to allow the use of CC's to bypass those credit sinks. In those cases, since the credit sinks are not acting as true credit sinks, but merely as incentive to use CC's, shouldn't the "credit sinks" be removed?

[Andryah]

I think a better solution would be to have a much larger variety of more reasonably priced credit sinks.

 

I agree with you on this.

 

But I stand by my personal view that credit soaks on Legacy Unlocks were bad design when they put them in, and they continue to be bad design today. For many players..(even before there was a CC path to unlock perks) the credit soaks devalue the Legacy as an instrument of game play. Of course for every single credit soak in this game.. there are players posting complaints about them as well.

Edited July 6, 2013 by Andryah

[Soluss]

It'll prolly be 350 Like HK is since HK is 1 mil creds or 350 cc.

 

But HK also requires an unlock from doing the quest atleast once. Treek does not, its a complete bypass. I would think Treek would cost more.

[Korrlen]

Credit sinks are fine and even necessary, but they are COMPLETELY useless if BW is going to allow the use of CC's to bypass those credit sinks. In those cases, since the credit sinks are not acting as true credit sinks, but merely as incentive to use CC's, shouldn't the "credit sinks" be removed?

 

Yes, Andryah has similar views I think. Honestly I can envision a system like this:

 

Remove all credit and cartel coin costs from the existing legacy, and let the system stand on it's own merit. Make it all about a huge achievement which you can be proud of - not something arbitrarily monitized.

 

Alternately, costs could be re-worked so that unlocks require credits, or cartel coins, but not both (I'd prefer CC not even be a factor in legacy, but that's probably not realistic). Though I'm not a huge fan of this solution, it values the player's investment into the game much more than the current system.

Edited July 6, 2013 by Korrlen

[Soluss]

I'm not ignoring it at all. Wealth comes in this game by playing, just like Legacy levels do. It would be rare for a legacy 40 character to be unable to pay the credit fees for unlocks. We both know this to be true. Sure.. there are always some players that cannot manage in game wealth accumulation and are constantly in a state of poverty, but these players are simply failing at basic MMO play if that is the case....ESPECIALLY so in this MMO.

 

That said.. I am on record in nearly every thread this week pointing out that Legacy is an artifact system from an earlier era of the game (subscription only model) and that it was a mistake to ever put credit fees on Legacy unlocks EVER, and the system should be updated accordingly and remove all credit fees. If you have paid any attention to my posts this week.. you would of course already know this.

 

The reason they wont remove the fees is because it wont encourage people to pay with CC. Some of the fees go into the millions and rather early on in the legacy levels. It was 5 mil for the ship GTN, I think? Im not poor but Im not rich either. My only source of income is from dailies and I took a long break from the game and still don't do those everyday. I send a lot of credits to new alts too. Id rather used my CCs on that then the 5 mil in credits.

 

I do agree that there should never have been a credit cost involved and even now it should be removed. They wont remove it for the reason above.

[Andryah]

I would think Treek would cost more.

 

You also thought that they would apply the Legacy 40 requirement on Treek too, right?

 

I'm not picking on your about this.. just pointing out that thoughts can be wrong.

 

Personally, I still think it will be either 600 or 800, based on observing their ongoing pricing models they have been using since November. 600 as it matches the Cathar Unlock, 800 because I am always a bit pessimistic. They could however surprise us and make it less then 600. Personally, I like pleasant surprises.

Edited July 6, 2013 by Andryah

[Soluss]

You also thought that they would apply the Legacy 40 requirement on Treek too, right?

 

I'm not picking on your about this.. just pointing out that thoughts can be wrong.

 

Personally, I still think it will be either 600 or 800, based on observing their ongoing pricing models they have been using since November. 600 as it matches the Cathar Unlock, 800 because I am always a bit pessimistic. They could however surprise us and make it less then 600. Personally, I like pleasant surprises.

 

Well of course, that's why its just a thought and I did not state it as fact.

[Andryah]

Well of course, that's why its just a thought and I did not state it as fact.

 

Fair enough.

[Desolaytore]

Yay, more things completely worthless for those of us with legacy 50.

 

Hurray! -_- The casuals win again.

[Suromir]

If you wish to purchase Treek using Cartel Coins there is no Legacy level requirement. The Legacy level requirement is only if you wish to use credits.

 

-eric

 

typical BioFail...why did you introduce this legacy ******** again then? we told you the game needed different things..but no..you insisted on this legacy ****....now..how many months later..and SWTOR crash and burning because of your own stupid design choices...

 

and legacy is still meaningless.

 

why even have Treek require legacy anything? Do you all even see how stupid the things you do is?

[Mark-JPS]

Hurray! -_- The casuals win again.

 

The casuals indeed won and they left out the veterans crowd AGAIN.

 

Well, it's good there are other MMOs coming out in several months... I'm sure SWTOR subs will take a hit when that happens... Bioware clearly wants to show to everyone that they don't value earning things in the game but rather, money talks. Keep on doing it!

[uaintjak]

I honestly have come to the conclusion that the people who make these decisions are perhaps the stupidest people I've ever had the displeasure of encountering in a customer service relationship.