What will it take for BW to address the Powertech / Vanguard class issues?

[Herbzta]

Lulz, I do more DPS than that on a regular basis, on all my characters. Hell, even on my Vanguard, I wouldn't consider it screenshot worthy. Grats on the fluff damage and low burst in a non ranked setting though.

 

Seen smashers do close to 3k DPS.

 

it's still above average for the common PT nowadays...

 

i feel like i´m the last PT on my server tho...

[ceelaniri]

http://postimg.org/image/7spdhgyhj/

this is 1350+ dps with mostly only singletarget dps, alot of dot(flamesweep if 3+ targets are available) damage too, yes but isn't smash dmg the same fluff? it's hitting harder but it's all the same...

 

Well, it s not. DOT are easier to heal through than direct dmg especially when the latter are dispensed by chunk of 8-9k.

[Never_Hesitate]

From the treatments the merc/commando recieved, it will take at least a year.

[nDjiin]

I actually disagree whole-heartedly that PTs need to do less damage. We don't have more survivability than snipers or marauders, and we certainly can't heal. The notion that our dps specs have better tanking viability and need to suck because of it is ridiculous.

 

All I meant was this : when deciding which class to pick , a class that has the extra raid utility (like tanking and heals) is always going to seem like a better choice than one that doesn't. I don't mean for there to be much for a difference - maybe 1 or 2%. This will make up for the extra defensive mitigation or the ability to self heal a bit more than other classes. Again not much, say 1-2% in each respect

 

Lets not let this thread get drawn away from the main topic - why we are all here - to get certain classes fixed - preferably before too many people leave the game. My guild has already lost 2 very dedicated, very skilled DPS players (Sin and PT adv classes). They had both been with the game since beta testing but didn't want to waste their time playing a broken class. I suspect this is not a unique case.

[Melon_Lord]

On The Bastion, I'm actually seeing more DPS PT than I ever remember seeing running around the fleet before 2.0. Not saying it's a large number like the amount of mercs you see, just more than it was. However, they are mostly under 50 so I assume they all switch to tanking for end game or something. I only know of maybe 3 or 4 PT that stayed DPS for 55 content.

[kushing]

On The Bastion, I'm actually seeing more DPS PT than I ever remember seeing running around the fleet before 2.0. Not saying it's a large number like the amount of mercs you see, just more than it was. However, they are mostly under 50 so I assume they all switch to tanking for end game or something. I only know of maybe 3 or 4 PT that stayed DPS for 55 content.

 

Im on Bastion,and i can probably count the number of dps pt's there are. Ive been shield for a bit now. Dps is just a joke in its current state

[Melon_Lord]

Im on Bastion,and i can probably count the number of dps pt's there are. Ive been shield for a bit now. Dps is just a joke in its current state

 

Well yeah, like I said, there's only maybe 3 or 4 that stayed DPS and there's no point in counting the low leveled ones.

[Sardonyyx]

http://postimg.org/image/7spdhgyhj/

this is 1350+ dps with mostly only singletarget dps, alot of dot(flamesweep if 3+ targets are available) damage too, yes but isn't smash dmg the same fluff? it's hitting harder but it's all the same...all classes that do alot of damage do alot of fluff damage...

highest dps for PT i´ve seen yet was 1500+ ..which is still laughable compared to smashers

 

Fluff damage = damage without killing people, or a little tiny bit of damage that adds up by always having it up.

Smashers don't have fluff damage, fluff is your flame sweep, little crap damage that you spam to get dots that are also crap. Smash is in no way fluff, it hits hard every time guaranteed, and they have an excellent finishing move, which does around the same ridiculous damage.

If you get a 1 on 1 situation with a powertech, you'll win every time, regardless of class.

 

Only situation where you might not is if they're AP spec and have 7 shoulder missiles.

[Melon_Lord]

I'll never understand why smash does more damage than Rail Shot. Aren't single target abilities supposed to be better than AoE abilites for damage? At least for all upfront damage. I can understand AoE like Orbital or DFA doing more because the damage is spread out over a duration and can be mitigated by leaving the target area.

 

Now I know Rage is built around Smash being awesome but Rail Shot is supposed to be awesome for Pyro too. It's not cool to see Smash hit for 9.5k while you Rail Shot for 3.8, then you see another Smash for 10k and you Rail Shot for 3.7

 

If they don't give back the armor pen and buff the damage they should at least give Rail shot a better crit chance

[Brunner_Venda]

I'll never understand why smash does more damage than Rail Shot. Aren't single target abilities supposed to be better than AoE abilites for damage? At least for all upfront damage. I can understand AoE like Orbital or DFA doing more because the damage is spread out over a duration and can be mitigated by leaving the target area.

 

Now I know Rage is built around Smash being awesome but Rail Shot is supposed to be awesome for Pyro too. It's not cool to see Smash hit for 9.5k while you Rail Shot for 3.8, then you see another Smash for 10k and you Rail Shot for 3.7

 

If they don't give back the armor pen and buff the damage they should at least give Rail shot a better crit chance

 

Smash doesn't bother me so much as the whole AP spec doing so little in the way of burst.

 

AP is my favorite spec, but with burst so stupid critical in PVP I've been running pyro.

[Brunner_Venda]

Played last night as AP and managed to get a 6K medal once out of a dozen or so games. The AP spec doesn't have the kind of DPS to be competitive. Some matches never went above 5K. It's bad, pyro outperforms it by a wide margin.

 

I played pyro for the last two matches, and really could have used the DOT self heal.

[Chickensevil]

Yeah and doesn't smash have about the same timer on it's CD too? like 15seconds or whatever, and there is a way to speed it up IIRC.

 

I agree, I never understood how a one off AOE like that was allowed to hit so hard but Rail Shot was too strong... lol wut? Snipers can hit for 8-10k single, Smashers can hit for 8-10k single, heck I think you would be hard pressed to find a class that didn't have something that strong, except for us. And to the suggestion of it critting more, if you are AP, just about every single one will be a crit, so I don't think that is the answer, since I normally see 5-5.5k on my RS. Rarely do I get the 6k medal though.

 

As has been said over, and over, and over, and over again. We used to be a glass cannon. Everyone who knew what they were doing would target us first because if left to our own devices we would wreck the field, but one or two people focusing us and we died. Now, we are just a glass noddle. People either kill us for an easy kill, or ignore us because our damage really doesn't matter.

[Aelaias]

Pretty sure their reasoning revolves around being able to get off 2 rails in 3 gcds. But the other attacks are meh so you rely on stacking a bunch of unreliable abilities in the hope of getting off a burst. The crit buff skill cooldown needs to be modified either by reducing its cooldown or by lowering its cooldown on use of some skills.

[Chickensevil]

Pretty sure their reasoning revolves around being able to get off 2 rails in 3 gcds. But the other attacks are meh so you rely on stacking a bunch of unreliable abilities in the hope of getting off a burst. The crit buff skill cooldown needs to be modified either by reducing its cooldown or by lowering its cooldown on use of some skills.

 

Ok then make it a 4.5 second internal CD on it, that only starts timing when you shoot a Rail Shot. This way you still get to use Rail Shot every 4 GCDs and you can't "stack" them back to back.

 

Now, can I please have my damage back on Rail Shot?

Edited July 15, 2013 by Chickensevil

[Luxidenstore]

Yes, would love the DMG back on RS/HiB for Assault/Pyro. The change doesn't make any sense the way the game has evolved. Pre 2.0 I'd be somewhat for it, but now? No way.

 

Make TD/Assault Plastique worthwhile.

 

Reduce the heat cost of incendiary missile, and make it synergize with other abilities through talents. Be creative.

 

Volatile Igniter. Stop, just... Stop. You must have been drunk when you designed this? Does it have its few uses? Sure. Is it uncreative, lackluster and unfitting for the spec? Indeed! Do away with it.

 

 

 

In terms of burst for VG/PTs in Tactics/AP I'd love something like Pulse Engine/Flame engine for better usability and effectively more burst. It would also make it harder to avoid most of the ticks in PvP. Or would it be too OP?

 

Other stuff for Tactics I'd like (Though not everything at the same time, it's just different thoughts) is Ion Pulse surge talent back for Tactics as well. Pyro can keep it too. It seems weird that the whole elemental damage spec isn't the one with the talented Ion Pulse/Flame burst, which is like the elemental signature ability.

 

Make High Energy Cell really worthwhile again. Not this hybrid stuff f they've said they actually want to avoid. The changes made to adress the Public Test Severs 2.0 hybrid spec was lazy, halfassed and not well thought through as it had huge effects on the full specs as well. I understand mistakes are made by people, but then you've got to own up to them. Don't hide and be afraid to address the issue or even roll back some changes. I know most devs are afraid of doing rollback on class changes, because they think it shows that they ****ed up, but personally I think it shows character that you can admit and own up to your mistakes.

 

Another idea is to make Immolate/Fire Pulse actually good. Either increase the dmg, reduce the base cooldown or have a talent that synergizes Immo/FP with another ability to reduce cooldown. An example is like the smash spec reduced cooldown on smash every time you use assault, battering assault etc. etc.

- Oh yeah, and fix the pathetic animation for Vanguard Fire Pulse. It's just so underwhelming words can't describe it. I think it's so bad even a badly put together recolored Ion Pulse would be better...

Edited July 17, 2013 by Luxidenstore

[johnpickard]

Agreed; PT DPS need buffing back up post 2.0, I personally gave up and fully converted mine to tanking.

 

Also, to the OP's note that Bioware hasnt paid enough attention to class balancing when thinking of teams that have been raiding together for almost a year or more, I add this caveat. One of the teams in my guild (unfortunately not my personal team lol) has been consistently clearing the highest level content for as long as I can remember playing the game, and for that entire time one of their tanks was an assassin. 2.0 rolls around and assassins are reblanaced, or whatever they did to them, and from what ive seen and heard are extremely spikey in comparison, and now this very experienced raider is taking an "extended break from raiding". He hasnt said anything but were all pretty convinced its got something to do with being randomly one shot even well geared etc etc. Another example of "rebalancing" not really balancing anything at all.

[Ottoattack]

Agreed; PT DPS need buffing back up post 2.0, I personally gave up and fully converted mine to tanking.

 

Also, to the OP's note that Bioware hasnt paid enough attention to class balancing when thinking of teams that have been raiding together for almost a year or more, I add this caveat. One of the teams in my guild (unfortunately not my personal team lol) has been consistently clearing the highest level content for as long as I can remember playing the game, and for that entire time one of their tanks was an assassin. 2.0 rolls around and assassins are reblanaced, or whatever they did to them, and from what ive seen and heard are extremely spikey in comparison, and now this very experienced raider is taking an "extended break from raiding". He hasnt said anything but were all pretty convinced its got something to do with being randomly one shot even well geared etc etc. Another example of "rebalancing" not really balancing anything at all.

 

There is a very solid point here. Many players including me rolled a charterer based on the potential performance. When I made my PT in the end of October/beginning of November of last year, I was looking for a glass cannon class that has mobility primarily for PvP, can somewhat avoid being in cc range (primary bubble stun) and can manage to hit outside of melee range. PT seemed was the ideal choice for what I was looking for. The problem is now the class after being "re-balanced" performs terribly in PvP and PvE as dps and the "high dps performance" I was looking for is gone. Ya, I can still top dps in WZs easily if I want to, but I have limited effectiveness in winning a competitive games, because the class does not have the tools to kill anybody, especially healers..

 

I know that I can retain my effectiveness as a tank, but I do not like the tank game play. What happens is people move to a different more effective class or leave the game. My main dps is no longer my PT its my sniper and I have been considering quitting the game since the expansion hit, because it significantly broke/changed my main dps and healer classes.

Edited July 18, 2013 by Ottoattack

[Chickensevil]

There is a very solid point here. Many players including me rolled a charterer based on the potential performance. When I made my PT in the end of October/beginning of November of last year, I was looking for a glass cannon class that has mobility primarily for PvP, can somewhat avoid being in cc range (primary bubble stun) and can manage to hit outside of melee range. PT seemed was the ideal choice for what I was looking for. The problem is now the class after being "re-balanced" performs terribly in PvP and PvE as dps and the "high dps performance" I was looking for is gone. Ya, I can still top dps in WZs easily if I want to, but I have limited effectiveness in winning a competitive games, because the class does not have the tools to kill anybody, especially healers..

 

I know that I can retain my effectiveness as a tank, but I do not like the tank game play. What happens is people move to a different more effective class or leave the game. My main dps is no longer my PT its my sniper and I have been considering quitting the game since the expansion hit, because it significantly broke/changed my main dps and healer classes.

 

No offense buddy, but you were basically rolling a FOTM class at that point (Oct/Nov) and should have been expecting a drop down at any point. Not saying that they didn't go too far, cause they did. For future reference if you are rerolling a class so you can perform better, either pick a middle of the road class (less likely to have significant nerfs requiring a reroll) or be willing to keep jumping classes every month (or in this games case... with the lack of any real balance changes on any frequency... every 6 months.)

[Ottoattack]

No offense buddy, but you were basically rolling a FOTM class at that point (Oct/Nov) and should have been expecting a drop down at any point. Not saying that they didn't go too far, cause they did. For future reference if you are rerolling a class so you can perform better, either pick a middle of the road class (less likely to have significant nerfs requiring a reroll) or be willing to keep jumping classes every month (or in this games case... with the lack of any real balance changes on any frequency... every 6 months.)

 

As a starter I have a toon in every advanced class except operative, of which 5 are level 55 and reasonably geared. And wth with this "ohh u r FOTM." Who in their right mind will bring a significantly under performing character in a progressive PvE group or competitive PvP, when they have many other options that perform much better?! The problem is I prefer the PT game play as dps, and I selected the class based on specific performance and game play 8 month ago. When BW devs go and f!@# everything up for no reason, considering that the class was not performing ahead of any class in PvP and PvE, there is a huge problem. What makes matter worse is zero communication, and their refusal to either provide explanation or responding to players concerns.

 

The bigger problem is they keep making the same mistake over and over, first with ops dps, then sorc then merc. Not everyone have 5 geared toons as I do, and quiet frankly, you need at least 200 to 300 PvP games to become optimal, which is something most people do not want to go through, again. Not to mention, after 3-4 month people get comfortable with the toon performance, change their gear look, etc... which is not always fun to repeat.

 

"What will it take for BW to address the Powertech / Vanguard class issues?" I am hoping something useful comes out of 3 questions for devs, but considering that AP is still on the head of devs I highly doubt it.

[Luxidenstore]

No offense buddy, but you were basically rolling a FOTM class at that point (Oct/Nov) and should have been expecting a drop down at any point. Not saying that they didn't go too far, cause they did. For future reference if you are rerolling a class so you can perform better, either pick a middle of the road class (less likely to have significant nerfs requiring a reroll) or be willing to keep jumping classes every month (or in this games case... with the lack of any real balance changes on any frequency... every 6 months.)

 

Or you could pick a Marauder/Sentinel.

[NathanielStarr]

Or you could pick a Marauder/Sentinel.

 

yes the flavor of the century. Powertechs are a class you could play, but Marauders are the class you're supposed to play. I really think the Devs look at it that way at least subconsciously. They will be the class to be in arenas.

[Chickensevil]

As a starter I have a toon in every advanced class except operative, of which 5 are level 55 and reasonably geared. And wth with this "ohh u r FOTM." Who in their right mind will bring a significantly under performing character in a progressive PvE group or competitive PvP, when they have many other options that perform much better?! The problem is I prefer the PT game play as dps, and I selected the class based on specific performance and game play 8 month ago. When BW devs go and f!@# everything up for no reason, considering that the class was not performing ahead of any class in PvP and PvE, there is a huge problem. What makes matter worse is zero communication, and their refusal to either provide explanation or responding to players concerns.

 

The bigger problem is they keep making the same mistake over and over, first with ops dps, then sorc then merc. Not everyone have 5 geared toons as I do, and quiet frankly, you need at least 200 to 300 PvP games to become optimal, which is something most people do not want to go through, again. Not to mention, after 3-4 month people get comfortable with the toon performance, change their gear look, etc... which is not always fun to repeat.

 

"What will it take for BW to address the Powertech / Vanguard class issues?" I am hoping something useful comes out of 3 questions for devs, but considering that AP is still on the head of devs I highly doubt it.

 

I was trying to be about as non-abrasive about the post as I could be. I don't really care if you want to switch toons constantly, it is the best way to stay on top if you have the time/patience for it since you will always be playing the best class. All I was suggesting was that you picked a bad time to "start" rolling a PT, since 2.0 was on the horizon and there was going to be some heavy balance changes (even before it hit the PTS everyone knew that was where the balance changes would be coming because the devs told us that was why there were no changes from like 1.5 to 1.7).

 

We were quite strong at what we did in PVP, and had the best burst in the game except *maybe* a sniper... but I think when the comparisons were made, we came out slightly ahead of them. Usually the class on the very top of the totem pole gets knocked down when they do balance changes in any game. That was all I was getting at with my response. If you couldn't see that was coming on some level, then I am sorry, and that was why I suggested to pick a class that is strong early on in the cycle so you don't feel like you are wasting your time. With 2.4 not coming until Oct, it might be ok to switch to another character, but likely, at this point, unless you already have a max level sniper/mara then I would just wait out the ride until we see where the balance stands (assuming we get a balance shift at all, in 2.4).

[Ottoattack]

We were quite strong at what we did in PVP, and had the best burst in the game except *maybe* a sniper... but I think when the comparisons were made, we came out slightly ahead of them. Usually the class on the very top of the totem pole gets knocked down when they do balance changes in any game. That was all I was getting at with my response. If you couldn't see that was coming on some level, then I am sorry, and that was why I suggested to pick a class that is strong early on in the cycle so you don't feel like you are wasting your time. With 2.4 not coming until Oct, it might be ok to switch to another character, but likely, at this point, unless you already have a max level sniper/mara then I would just wait out the ride until we see where the balance stands (assuming we get a balance shift at all, in 2.4).

 

And there is the problem. There should be no cycles. The game has been out for almost two years and specific expectations are set from each class. Balances are always there and needed, but you can't just take a class ruin to the ground, because it had lead on one aspect. That's exactly what BW did with both sin tanks and PT dps. They did not balance jack, they just did major nerfs where the classes became significantly under performing and that's about it.

[Individual]

Bioware won't comment. We're not a force class. Bioware only cares mostly about the force classes in this game. You saw how quick they were to comment on the Sin DPS during the PTS before these changes took place. However, since these changes, they still haven't commented on PTs at all. Furthermore, it took them a year to start doing things with the mercs. This game will be dead before they even get around the PTs.

[nDjiin]

It seems that the DPS in SWTOR is ranked in like this

 

Highest : DPS only class : ie Marauder / Sentinel, Sniper / Gunslinger

Next Highest : Healer Class : ie mercenary / Commando, Operative / Scoundrel, Sorcerer / Sage

Lowest : Powertech / Vanguard, Assassin / Shadow, Juggernaut / Guardian

 

My point being the tank classes have 2 tree's that are now almost worthless - so why would they have 2/3 of the skill tree's that are not competitive? Why not have 2 tank tree's and 1 DPS tree. Personally I would rather they fix the DPS on these classes but this doesn't seem to be happening anytime soon.

Edited July 27, 2013 by nDjiin