CosmicKat Posted July 3, 2013 Share Posted July 3, 2013 I think that's supposed to be a joke of some kind. I think that was supposed to be a witty retort of some kind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knockerz Posted July 3, 2013 Share Posted July 3, 2013 http://radiococoa.com/wp-content/uploads/Cosmic-Kat.jpg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
branmakmuffin Posted July 3, 2013 Share Posted July 3, 2013 I think that was supposed to be a witty retort of some kind. Any more wit from my reply and your "Purgatory" post would have been drowned in wit. And not of its own making. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soluss Posted July 3, 2013 Share Posted July 3, 2013 Since it's only possible to "win" in PvP, P2W only applies in the PvP setting. Treek has no bearing on how a player performs in PvP, therefore Treek is not P2W. What do you win in PVP? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
astrobearx Posted July 3, 2013 Share Posted July 3, 2013 What do you win in PVP? ....? you get pvp commendation for pvp gear. you used to get more than that but that is in the past now Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soluss Posted July 3, 2013 Share Posted July 3, 2013 ....? you get pvp commendation for pvp gear. you used to get more than that but that is in the past now Yeah but he said its only possible to win in PVP and not PVE... what do you win in PVP? I really don't get it... you win a PVP match. You win when you beat a raid. You win when you complete your class storyline... I mean what do you win in PVP that you cant win at PVE... how do they differ, in other words? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
branmakmuffin Posted July 3, 2013 Share Posted July 3, 2013 What do you win in PVP? You actually defeat people in mock combat. If you kill my character, you win (that little skirmish). It's pretty much like playing virtual paintball. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
astrobearx Posted July 3, 2013 Share Posted July 3, 2013 Yeah but he said its only possible to win in PVP and not PVE... what do you win in PVP? I really don't get it... you win a PVP match. You win when you beat a raid. You win when you complete your class storyline... I mean what do you win in PVP that you cant win at PVE... how do they differ, in other words? ah i see, nevermind then Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
branmakmuffin Posted July 3, 2013 Share Posted July 3, 2013 Yeah but he said its only possible to win in PVP and not PVE... what do you win in PVP? I really don't get it... you win a PVP match. You win when you beat a raid. You win when you complete your class storyline... I mean what do you win in PVP that you cant win at PVE... how do they differ, in other words? You win when you beat a raid? Who do you beat? The computer? The computer is not your opponent. It's the cement wall you hit a tennis ball against. Who do you beat when you finish your class storyline? BWEA's quest writers? No, there's no winning or losing in PvE. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soluss Posted July 3, 2013 Share Posted July 3, 2013 (edited) You win when you beat a raid? Who do you beat? The computer? The computer is not your opponent. It's the cement wall you hit a tennis ball against. Who do you beat when you finish your class storyline? BWEA's quest writers? No, there's no winning or losing in PvE. So if I beat the computer in chess then I didn't win the game because its against a computer? I know a lot of people that have no clue on how to raid. Cant even train them, they are just raid stupid. I guess if they wipe over and over they didn't really lose because its against a computer. I have seen some tough raids, in my day. There were some bosses that took months to figure out. I guess beating them doesn't really matter because it was a computer. Didn't really win. Sorry, but I don't share your view. Whether you beat some PVP player or beat a raid it makes no difference. Its the same thing. There really isn't much more variety in the pvp world then in the pve world. Every class has its certain skills and once you know how that class works you can fairly predict what that player is going to do. Its not much different the learning a raid encounter. Sure, there might be a little variation in the player and he could do something you don't expect.... same as a raid encounter might give you a bad RNG and wipe your raid or your raid team does silly **** and silly times and same result. Its a little different, of course, but more similar then you want people to believe. The answer is that you don't win anything at PVP either. Atleast not in this day and age. Back in the day you might get that persons loot. That would be winning. Now you just get coms. The difference is you get coms whether you win or lose in PVP. In raids, you need to win in order to get the coms. PS... cement walls don't fight back. Edited July 3, 2013 by Soluss Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CosmicKat Posted July 3, 2013 Share Posted July 3, 2013 You win when you beat a raid? Who do you beat? The computer? The computer is not your opponent. It's the cement wall you hit a tennis ball against. Who do you beat when you finish your class storyline? BWEA's quest writers? No, there's no winning or losing in PvE. You beat yourself in PvE. No pun intended. You choose (by playing) to test yourself against a pre-determined set of obstacles and you either get to the objective (win) or you don't (lose). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordArtemis Posted July 3, 2013 Share Posted July 3, 2013 I think it's pretty fair to point out that, as evidenced in this thread, this petition did not gain the support it needed to demonstrate the kind of majority that would dictate a need for change. Like it or not this is probably how it is going to be from now on. It seems most folks are just not as worried about the CM as one might think, and I think this is indicative of the current market. Again, we can lament the days of old but it seems casual play is here to stay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
branmakmuffin Posted July 3, 2013 Share Posted July 3, 2013 (edited) So if I beat the computer in chess then I didn't win the game because its against a computer? I'm gonna go way out on a limb here and say that playing chess is nothing like playing an MMO. I know a lot of people that have no clue on how to raid. Cant even train them, they are just raid stupid. Great observation. Got nothing to do with the concept of winning or losing a raid. PvP, you play against and beat or lose to other humans. PvE. there's no opponent. PvE is an interactive story. You can no more win playing PvE than you can win watching a movie. You beat yourself in PvE. No pun intended. You choose (by playing) to test yourself against a pre-determined set of obstacles and you either get to the objective (win) or you don't (lose). That's not a contest, any more than trying to beat your own fastest time in the 100 m dash is a contest. That's just exercise, possibly training (in the case of running). Solitaire is also not a contest. To have a contest, you need contestants. Edited July 3, 2013 by branmakmuffin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soluss Posted July 3, 2013 Share Posted July 3, 2013 (edited) I'm gonna go way out on a limb here and say that playing chess is nothing like playing an MMO. Same concept. You are playing a game either way. MMO or not, its still just a game. Great observation. Got nothing to do with the concept of winning or losing a raid. No? Some people can beat a raid and some people cant. If you beat a raid then you win, if you don't then you lose. PvP, you play against and beat or lose to other humans. PvE. there's no opponent. PvE is an interactive story. You can no more win playing PvE than you can win watching a movie. The opponent is the boss mob and its mechanics. We aren't talking training dummies here. You kill them or they kill you... same as PVP. Here is a difference.... you lose nothing by PVPing. All you do is gain. I don't care if its a computer or a human... its the same thing.... either you beat the human or the human beats you / either you beat the raid encounter or the raid encounter beats you. There is no difference there except one gives you a repair bill with no rewards while the other doesn't give you a repair bill and you still get rewards. That's not a contest, any more than trying to beat your own fastest time in the 100 m dash is a contest. That's just exercise, possibly training (in the case of running). Solitaire is also not a contest. To have a contest, you need contestants. The contestants are the people at the raid encounter vs the encounter itself. Much like the contestants on Who Wants to Be a Millionaire is a contestant. Edited July 3, 2013 by Soluss Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
branmakmuffin Posted July 3, 2013 Share Posted July 3, 2013 (edited) Same concept. You are playing a game either way. MMO or not, its still just a game. So baseball and checkers are the same. MMOs are a completely different class of game from competitive games like chess. MMOs (PvE-wise) are inherently cooperative, like PnP RPGs. Chess, baseball and checkers, for example, are inherently competitive. No? Some people can beat a raid and some people cant. If you beat a raid then you win, if you don't then you lose Who have you beaten if you "win" the raid? To whom have you "lost" if you don't? In both cases, no one.If you don't understand a novel the first time you read it, the novel has not "beaten" you. The opponent is the boss mob and its mechanics. We aren't talking training dummies here. You kill them or they kill you... same as PVP. Not even close. I don't PvP, but playing against a human opponent in a computer game is completely different from playing against AI. It's the difference between playing paintball against humans and running a combat course against pop-ups. If you fail to complete the pop-up course because you made too many errors, it has not beaten you, you have simply failed to perform. Here is a difference.... you lose nothing by PVPing. All you do is gain. I don't care if its a computer or a human... its the same thing.... either you beat the human or the human beats you / either you beat the raid encounter or the raid encounter beats you. There is no difference there except one gives you a repair bill with no rewards while the other doesn't give you a repair bill and you still get rewards. Contests require contestants. Competition requires competitors. The PvE AI is not a competitor or a contestant. It is not trying to beat you. It is merely responding to your moves. If you do nothing, it will wait forever. If you do nothing against a human opponent, he or she will eventually do something to try to take advantage of your inaction. Maybe one day MMO AI will be sophisticated enough to be considered an opponent, but that day is not today. Edited July 3, 2013 by branmakmuffin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ratajack Posted July 3, 2013 Share Posted July 3, 2013 You do know you can do that with all Character Perks in the Legacy UI, since November 2012, right? If you purchase the perk with CC.. the Legacy level requirement (and credit cost) is waived. That would be incorrect. Even if you use CC's, you still need the legacy 25 to purchase the ship GTN, you still the required legacy levels to purchase the ship mailbox and the ship repair droid. So, the use of CC's does not necessarily negate the legacy level requirement, and it should not when it comes to this new companion, either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Esunos Posted July 3, 2013 Share Posted July 3, 2013 (edited) I also agree with the Ewok not a CC purchase option. MMO's are built on the idea of progression, and the carrot at the end of the stick we keep chasing. I understand that this companion ISN'T pay to win, but she was a reward and a reason to hit Legacy 40. What other reason is there for legacy past 30. The incentive is gone, and that begins to drip down and make the game less and less attractive for SOME of the players, most of whom are subscribers. I get that Bioware has to tread a fine line to keep the game profitable and accessible for F2P players, but when you start removing reasons to subscribe or grind than you will inevitably lose a portion of your customers. This is my opinion, I'm not speaking for others but from reading the other posts, I'm sure there are some who agree with me. Edited July 3, 2013 by Esunos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ratajack Posted July 3, 2013 Share Posted July 3, 2013 The delusion is thinking that a companion in this MMO is somehow P2W. Besides.. you can acquire it multiple ways.. which is the new normal for this game since November (as you correctly pointed out above). P2W requires that 1) something be accessible only through a cash shop (which is not true here) AND 2) provides a winning advantage over other players (which again, is not true here). Treek is awesome IMO... but is not P2W because it fails both classic tests of what P2W means in MMOs. By your definition of P2W, selling BIS gear on the CM would not be P2W because it can be obtained in the game via doing OPS and therefore fails to meet the first requirement of your P2W definition. Your definition would also not include selling max level characters with all companions at max affection and with all companion unlocks for the same reason. Do you wish to stand by your definition of P2W? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordArtemis Posted July 3, 2013 Share Posted July 3, 2013 (edited) I think one can stand by the definition of P2W that is widely accepted as the definition despite different versions of the same. P2W is when you purchase an item with real money that provides an in-game advantage that can not be acquired by in-game means. In other words folks that have cash get an advantage over folks that do not. That is the commonly accepted definition. Naturally plenty of folks label things P2W under wide variations of the accepted definition to paint those things as negatives. It is a silly practice IMO. The second most popular definition....paying cash to get something quickly you would normally have to earn over a long period of time or a substantial amount of effort is not actually P2W...but is still generally frowned upon. Unfortunately or not (depending on your opinion) that seems to be the current market model more often than not. Edited July 3, 2013 by LordArtemis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shonenjumpstyle Posted July 3, 2013 Share Posted July 3, 2013 I am "ok" with it being CM as long as you are still required to have legacy 40... This. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mandoforlife Posted July 3, 2013 Share Posted July 3, 2013 When I got on the PTS, I was happy that Treek was going to be a credit-only buy, with a legacy level restriction. It showed me that the devs understood that we didn't want EVERYTHING on the Cartel Market. But now, in all honesty, who is going to spend 1M on the Ewok when you could just throw a bit of money at your screen and save that mil for something else? It's kind of a disappointment to me. I understand that there are casual players that don't have a million credits, and aren't legacy level 40+, but the players that put enough time into the game should get something to show for it. I sure hope the devs reconsider this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mjollnir Posted July 3, 2013 Share Posted July 3, 2013 They should have two options for Treek: 1) Purchased with credits: The current model as depicted; 2) Purchased with CC: The current model with "NASCAR style" advertising all over the model. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andryah Posted July 3, 2013 Share Posted July 3, 2013 (edited) By your definition of P2W, selling BIS gear on the CM would not be P2W because it can be obtained in the game via doing OPS and therefore fails to meet the first requirement of your P2W definition. Your definition would also not include selling max level characters with all companions at max affection and with all companion unlocks for the same reason. Do you wish to stand by your definition of P2W? Please re-read my definition more carefully, taking note of points I underlined (specifically to encourage reading and understanding words like "only). IF it's only available via the Cash Shop AND gives a clear advantage in playing (winning).. then... Edited July 3, 2013 by Andryah Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andryah Posted July 3, 2013 Share Posted July 3, 2013 (edited) That would be incorrect. Even if you use CC's, you still need the legacy 25 to purchase the ship GTN, you still the required legacy levels to purchase the ship mailbox and the ship repair droid. So, the use of CC's does not necessarily negate the legacy level requirement, and it should not when it comes to this new companion, either. You might want to go back and review the Legacy UI, because it is you that is wrong. You can purchase the ship GTN for 900 CCs.....OR $5Mcredits+legacy_level_25. Read the tooltip. By the way.. this happens to be one Legacy perk where it's better economics to use 900 CCs (from your free allowance you accumulate with subscription) rather then spend $5M credits, IMO. This is based simply on the average effective exchange rate on the GTN, which can vary by server and date/time.. but 900cc is a bargain, even if you are wealthy, UNLESS it means buying coins to do it. Edited July 3, 2013 by Andryah Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thecoffeecup Posted July 3, 2013 Share Posted July 3, 2013 2) Purchased with CC: The current model with "NASCAR style" advertising all over the model. I want this. Strike that, I *badly* want this. An ewok with advertisements all over. What's not to like? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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