Scoupratives healers aren't OP

[Vaerah]

 

So they're OP because you can't kill them? Then don't.... CC, Taunt them away, spread the damage. Plenty of things you can do. Because the people who play them aren't idiots (in most cases..). Even if you're 3 on 1 you shouldn't be able to kill the healer if the healer knows what he's doing.

 

"Kill the healer" is old school. It's the oldest trick in the book and was outdated a long time ago. Think outside that narrowminded, tunnelvision box. Spread the damage. CC, target switch, communicate. If you channel on 1 target it's way to easy to heal. Scoupratives are mobile, so stop running after them. Switch target instead = win.

 

K thx

 

I can kill some bad-dish healers in solo, they often need 2 people with good gear to go down. But a well played operative won't die vs 3-4, some even learned how to do some "across walls" dance.

Focusing his target is a bad suggestion as it's usually guarded and even the other healers can keep a focused guy alive. "Communicate", hell yeah, sure all play RWZ 24/7 on voice comm. Oh wait you mean I should stop micromanaging my wet paper shadow and type some blurb. Guess what happens, even putting a symbol on the operative? 3-4 try kill him for half a minute then give up as they see they are not getting any medal/valor for beating on a rubber wall, so they ignore him and ofc he returns healing undisturbed.

[DimeStax]

Ops are the best healers right now, and that's tough to compete with

[Oddy_T]

Scouprative healers are OP because people are being stupid.

 

You shouldn't talk about the devs like that

[Ottoattack]

Scoundrel and Op healers aren't overpowred. Not at all. The fact is just, most of them are experienced players. Very few chose to play Operative or Scoundrel as their first class since Gunslinger and Sniper looks more ******. Not even their 2nd which is either a commando or mercenary. The path of Scoundrel or Operative is a path you chose when you're looking to advance your skill to the next level.

 

Scoundrel and Operatives have an incredibly high skill cap unlike these silly Jedi and Sith classes. There are several ways to play an Scouprative. But it ain't easy. Most of the people sitting on the forums saying they're OP are still probably playing their jedis and siths trying to catch that little Scouprative as they kite you like an idiot.

 

I love it when people claim there class have "high skill cap" and "other classes don't." You can tell right away that the rest of the thread is full of BS.

 

A healers job isn't just to heal himself. If you know how to play basic PvP, you will find that spreading the damage will put more pressure on the healer. You're not supposed to kill them 1v1.

 

Let me translate this. If an enemy dps atks me I can still a) heal my self, b) heal others and c) not die.

 

So they're OP because you can't kill them? Then don't.... CC, Taunt them away, spread the damage. Plenty of things you can do. Because the people who play them aren't idiots (in most cases..). Even if you're 3 on 1 you shouldn't be able to kill the healer if the healer knows what he's doing.

 

"Even if you're 3 on 1 you shouldn't be able to kill the healer if the healer knows what he's doing." Let me rephrase this: 3 dps (75% of the enemy dps) should not be able to kill me. If I want to proof that the class is currently OP and needs nerf, look no further.

 

"Kill the healer" is old school. It's the oldest trick in the book and was outdated a long time ago. Think outside that narrowminded, tunnelvision box. Spread the damage. CC, target switch, communicate. If you channel on 1 target it's way to easy to heal. Scoupratives are mobile, so stop running after them. Switch target instead = win.

 

I actually agree, usually if you can pull the healer off objective and get them to heal themselves you can neutralize their effectiveness, but this is easier said than done. The problem is if the healer also know what they are doing, it is very difficult to pull them off objectives.

 

K thx

 

To summarize, your sentiment does not succeed, because a) you admit that enemies need to dedicate multiple dps to be able to just hurt you b) You assume you are the only one who knows what they are doing in a WZ.

 

I do agree that operatives do not need a nerf in healing output, survivability however is really questionable. At least the 2 other healers need to be stationary or they lose much of their healing potential, operatives do not.

[Yeochins]

At least the 2 other healers need to be stationary or they lose much of their healing potential, operatives do not.

This is where operatives are overtuned.

 

I think operatives need to bring a different healing style to the table, mobile heals. The difference between operatives and other classes are the effectiveness of the escapes they have. If you stop a sorcerer from moving they can only:

 

1. Knock back everyone in a frontal cone
   
2. 4-second STUN 1 person
   
3. Force speed
   
4. Have light armor
   

 

Previously they had a bubble-stun in that list, but no more.

 

Compared to the Operative:

1. 8-second instant flashbang mez everyone chasing them
   
2. 4 second STUN 1 person
   
3. Cloak away
   
4. Scamper (bad idea most of the time, but sometimes it works to delay caps)
   
5. Take cover to prevent leaping
   
6. Have medium armor
   

 

Add in a sludge grenade and Operatives have 2 more escapes than any DPS class has to counter them.

 

I didn't bother comparing a Merc, we all know they've got to face-tank most of the time.

 

Factor in the mobile HOTS of an Operative, and you've got an awesome healer while they're kiting damage.

Edited July 2, 2013 by Yeochins

[Cretinus]

This is where operatives are overtuned.

 

I think operatives need to bring a different healing style to the table, mobile heals. The difference between operatives and other classes are the effectiveness of the escapes they have. If you stop a sorcerer from moving they can only:

 

1. Knock back everyone in a frontal cone
   
2. 4-second STUN 1 person
   
3. Force speed
   
4. Have light armor
   

 

Previously they had a bubble-stun in that list, but no more.

 

Compared to the Operative:

1. 8-second instant flashbang mez everyone chasing them
   
2. 4 second STUN 1 person
   
3. Cloak away
   
4. Scamper (bad idea most of the time, but sometimes it works to delay caps)
   
5. Take cover to prevent leaping
   
6. Have medium armor
   

 

Add in a sludge grenade and Operatives have 2 more escapes than any DPS class has to counter them.

 

I didn't bother comparing a Merc, we all know they've got to face-tank most of the time.

 

Factor in the mobile HOTS of an Operative, and you've got an awesome healer while they're kiting damage.

 

^

this

[Brunner_Venda]

This is where operatives are overtuned.

 

I think operatives need to bring a different healing style to the table, mobile heals. The difference between operatives and other classes are the effectiveness of the escapes they have. If you stop a sorcerer from moving they can only:

 

1. Knock back everyone in a frontal cone
   
2. 4-second STUN 1 person
   
3. Force speed
   
4. Have light armor
   

 

Previously they had a bubble-stun in that list, but no more.

 

Compared to the Operative:

1. 8-second instant flashbang mez everyone chasing them
   
2. 4 second STUN 1 person
   
3. Cloak away
   
4. Scamper (bad idea most of the time, but sometimes it works to delay caps)
   
5. Take cover to prevent leaping
   
6. Have medium armor
   

 

Add in a sludge grenade and Operatives have 2 more escapes than any DPS class has to counter them.

 

I didn't bother comparing a Merc, we all know they've got to face-tank most of the time.

 

Factor in the mobile HOTS of an Operative, and you've got an awesome healer while they're kiting damage.

 

Good post. ^^^^

 

Operative healers can smell the nerf coming, and the posts are getting more desperate.

 

I honestly hope it's only a tweak to their resource management, but a hell of a lot more than that is probably justified.

[Lortemand]

Scoundrel and Op healers aren't overpowred. Not at all. The fact is just, most of them are experienced players. Very few chose to play Operative or Scoundrel as their first class since Gunslinger and Sniper looks more ******. Not even their 2nd which is either a commando or mercenary. The path of Scoundrel or Operative is a path you chose when you're looking to advance your skill to the next level.

 

Scoundrel and Operatives have an incredibly high skill cap unlike these silly Jedi and Sith classes. There are several ways to play an Scouprative. But it ain't easy. Most of the people sitting on the forums saying they're OP are still probably playing their jedis and siths trying to catch that little Scouprative as they kite you like an idiot.

 

A healers job isn't just to heal himself. If you know how to play basic PvP, you will find that spreading the damage will put more pressure on the healer. You're not supposed to kill them 1v1.

 

So they're OP because you can't kill them? Then don't.... CC, Taunt them away, spread the damage. Plenty of things you can do. Because the people who play them aren't idiots (in most cases..). Even if you're 3 on 1 you shouldn't be able to kill the healer if the healer knows what he's doing.

 

"Kill the healer" is old school. It's the oldest trick in the book and was outdated a long time ago. Think outside that narrowminded, tunnelvision box. Spread the damage. CC, target switch, communicate. If you channel on 1 target it's way to easy to heal. Scoupratives are mobile, so stop running after them. Switch target instead = win.

 

K thx

 

We're krap because we can't kill them. Right. Ridiculous. Nerf.

[Stultophobe]

Ops/Scoundrels can barely scrape 500k dmg, healing is really their only claim to fame and even then, they'll never top Sage/Sorc heals (note that Sages/Sorcs also have some of the highest DPS in the game).

 

Again, it's not so much the spec that's OP as it is the people who play it. Bads see good players playing a spec effectively and would sooner declare said spec "OP" before acknowledging that they were outplayed.

[NoTomorrow]

Nobody can deny that

1. operative healers got a tremendous buff in 2.0

2. In swtor 1.7 operative healers were anything but underpowered

 

If both points are true, the 2.0 op healers are overpowered.

Edited July 3, 2013 by NoTomorrow

[AngusFTW]

Ops/Scoundrels can barely scrape 500k dmg, before acknowledging that they were outplayed.

Lethality says hai

[Shardas]

Okay, I think I'll give this a try. First of all, just so you know: I play an Operative healer. Current level is 46, so I can't talk about lvl55 war zones. Also I didn't try the other healing classes so far, so not sure if Ops are actually overpowered, but one thing I know for sure is this: Op healer is fun and not very difficult, especially if nobody pays attention to me. Just my oppinion, so you know.

 

Now I'm not sure if I should reveal this but the key to success for Op healers is tactical advantage (again, my oppinion). Let's look at Op heals. There's a total of five heals if we leave the medical scan (which nobody uses anyway) and the toxi scan (which is used for it's ability to remove debuffs and not for the healing part) aside.

 

 

1. One big heal, 2 seconds cast time - grants tactical advantage
   
2. One medium heal, 1.5 seconds cast time - adds a heal over time and requires a tactical advantage
   
3. One small heal, instant, no cooldown, no cost except one tactical advantage - if the target is below 30% health it also grants a tactical advantage (you see where this goes)
   
4. One heal over time, instant, no cooldown, stackable up to two times per target
   
5. One mass heal over time for up to 5 targets, 15 seconds cooldown
   

 

All these heals except the 3rd one have an energy cost, of course.

 

Now Op healers can have up to three stacks of tactical advantage at a time. Also every time a hot ticks, there's a 30% chance that they get, you guessed it, a tactical advantage. With three ways to apply HoT to a target you almost never run out of them. Please also keep in mind, that we have a cooldown which grants tactical advantage and we also get it, when we leave stealth. I think one of the knife attacks also grants tactical advantage, not sure right now.

 

So let's assume tactical advantage does not exist. That would leave us with three of the five heals. The big one can easily be interrupted and the two HoTs can be annoying but ultimately won't save anyone on their own. The other two heals are needed.

 

Here is a scenario: Let's introduce an 'offensive cleanse' available to another class.

 

We have a 'defensive' cleanse already which removes debuffs from our allies. This serves two purposes, the first one being quite obvious: If you remove DoTs you have an easier time countering the incoming damage. Second purpose is reducing the damage output of classes which depend on applying DoTs to a target.

 

Now if the 'offensive cleanse' would be able to remove certain buffs, like HoTs on an enemy this would also serve two purposes, first being just as obvious: Without constant HoTs there is less heal countering your damage. Second purpose: If you remove the HoTs on one target, that means one less 'tactical advantage generator' for the operative, which in turn means the <30% health heal and the medium+HoT heal cannot be used as frequently anymore.

 

Advantage: Heals overall remain untouched, Operative mobility remains untouched, other Operative specs remain untouched and you still have a slight reduce in Operative healing output. Also PvE won't be affected unless mobs with this ability are introduced.

 

Of course you would still need to decide which class/es should get an offensive cleanse ability and this is just an idea based on my personal oppinion. Nobody can say for sure how this would work out in actual game play.

 

I usually avoid posting in the forums, so don't be sad if I don't answer after this post.

 

Lastly I'm not a native english speaker, so you find any spelling/grammar mistakes, you get to keep them.

[Carter_Mathis]

Lethality says hai

 

hai

[Belly]

To be honest, I don't expect BioWare takes much of these threads into consideration. They will run their numbers. If heals are too high, based on their metrics, they will be adjusted. If heals hit their intended mark, they won't be touched.

[Gloomycakes]

So let's assume tactical advantage does not exist. That would leave us with three of the five heals. The big one can easily be interrupted and the two HoTs can be annoying but ultimately won't save anyone on their own. The other two heals are needed.

 

Here is a scenario: Let's introduce an 'offensive cleanse' available to another class.

 

Now if the 'offensive cleanse' would be able to remove certain buffs, like HoTs on an enemy this would also serve two purposes, first being just as obvious: Without constant HoTs there is less heal countering your damage. Second purpose: If you remove the HoTs on one target, that means one less 'tactical advantage generator' for the operative, which in turn means the <30% health heal and the medium+HoT heal cannot be used as frequently anymore.

 

Advantage: Heals overall remain untouched, Operative mobility remains untouched, other Operative specs remain untouched and you still have a slight reduce in Operative healing output. Also PvE won't be affected unless mobs with this ability are introduced.

 

I love the orginality, how-ever if you give other classes a chance to remove buffs it will effect a lot of other classes, making most cooldowns completely counterable (which with their cooldowns is a bit much) and procs will be affected. On top of that Scoundrels get by with HoTs completely most of the time. If their HoTs can be removed (too) easily they become very unreliable and vs a well-orginized team completely useless. Unless you honestly think a Scoundrel can get by with just Underworld Medicine, I doubt it will work.

 

To be honest I think the sollution doesn't lie in changing the class or any other class, but more reverting it to 1.7 and maybe reduce their healing a bit (they were the second best healers in 1.7 imo, but that's only because Bubble-Stun was so amazing, with that gone they get my number 1 spot) so it's similar to other classes. Maybe I just miss 1.7 too much.

 

I think Scoundrels are all about their HoTs, upperhand, their instant casts and being a pain in the neck to kill. But with 2.0 we got Scamper and an immense change to our energy/upperhand management, it's overkill. I don't even enjoy my class half as much as I used to. I can just throw away slow release medpacs, my AoE heal, emergency medpacs and still have enough energy to throw other stuff in it, I just won't get out of energy, if by a miracle I do, I use Cool Head. To make matters worse I got way more 'emergency upperhands' besides being able to use slow-release medpac a lot more (thus more upperhand) I have stim boost and gaining upperhand upon exiting stealth.

 

My class used to be fun and challanging to play as long as you aimed for getting to your full potentional. Something that for me is completely gone since 2.0, it's so easy now you don't even have to think about your energy and have infinite Upperhands (it really feels like that sometimes.)

Edited July 3, 2013 by Gloomycakes

[Lortemand]

Ops/Scoundrels can barely scrape 500k dmg, healing is really their only claim to fame and even then, they'll never top Sage/Sorc heals (note that Sages/Sorcs also have some of the highest DPS in the game).

 

Again, it's not so much the spec that's OP as it is the people who play it. Bads see good players playing a spec effectively and would sooner declare said spec "OP" before acknowledging that they were outplayed.

 

We're krap. We can't get him down. Heard that before.