Do something about the operative healers NOW

[madtycoon]

Try the following thought experiment:

 

Make a team of 3. It consists of 2 DPS (or 1 tank + 1 DPS) and 1 sc/op healer. Call it team A.

 

Now make a 100% clone of this team. Exactly the same players playing the same toons. Now replace the sc/op healer by an equally geared sorc healer. Call it team B.

 

Let team A play a squirmish against team B. Who wins?

 

Try the same with a 4, 5, 6, 7 or 8 people team. You can also take two healers instead of 1 for bigger teams, team A then has two op/sc healers and team B has 2 sorc.

Who wins?

 

Thank you.

 

I don't know, but just theorycrafting. I would take the sorc. Neither team is going to get a kill on the healer probably so its going to come down to CC on the healer/kill the dps. Sorc has barrier to break the second cc chain and mental alacrity to stop interrupts. Sorc also has a ranged interrupt, ranged slow and ranged CC so they don't have to overextend to flash anything and can also help dps from range much better than a op healer. They also have grip. A pre-emptive grip can save break if you see a CC incoming, if your sorc is on a pillar, now you can just LOS till their CC ends.

 

The only cc the operative has better is sap, so the longer the game goes, the more it favors the sorc healer imo. Openers seems pretty easy to break up with a tank. I mean you're not going to get a kill with the initial sap, that is if they even let you get a sap, which seems pretty easy to negate. Granted sorcs can't cleanse the op sap and operative's cleanse is probably more useful than a sorcs. But sorcs also bring knockback. knockback is really the best way in dealing with guard, so if a sorc is paired with a sniper for example he could knockback into legshot on a tank or leap root or whatever, theres tons of roots in the game. Add anything with x-axis and knockback becomes even better. Would probably take the sorc honestly, unless they just flat out die through guard and peels, but I don't think that happens

 

But I agree, once it gets over like 4 or so people, the sorc healer becomes weaker, because it becomes less about the class utility and more about sitting back and healing. Sorc healers can't really pair with each other also and be as effective so yeah there's that.

Edited June 27, 2013 by madtycoon

[MidichIorian]

Right now, it takes more mental effort to defend operative healing from nerfs then to survive focus fire in PvP as one.

 

Devs didn't learn from SWTOR 1.1. The 1.2 healing nerfs will have to happen again.

And when it does it will probably be the lazy way, by nerfing bonus healing on expertise which would affect the other two too.

[mulzii]

And when it does it will probably be the lazy way, by nerfing bonus healing on expertise which would affect the other two too.

 

yep, BW will tweak it with their sledgehammer. I'm not sure what a good balance would be for tweaking, as i've parked mine for a bit (plays too much like a tank nowdays), though i think adding more energy requirements on their heals they can cast while moving may be all that is needed. They need something added/tweaked to make OPs look at their energy and manage it. As it is now, i don't even look at the energy bar, i am always 75-100 full, heh..

[Scotland]

i have one. op healers are over powered. it's hard to even die on one unless you try to.

 

How many rated warzones you done, scepter?

 

oh, yeh, 0.

[Boch]

How many rated warzones you done, scepter?

 

oh, yeh, 0.

 

Totally agree. Ranked is where you can really see how powerful they are on a balanced team with skilled players.

[MidichIorian]

Yeah let's keep it totally OP in normals so that 0,1 % (if that) of the population can enjoy balance in rateds. Makes perfect sense. It's the same stupid argument people are using for scamper. A pug is rarely to never organized to handle such an ability and even if you happen to be qualified to do so you can't be everywhere at once so you have to rely on the other seven, who for the most part are totally clueless.

 

And the fact that people are writing manuals on how to take down one scoundrel healer speaks volumes.

 

Here's a manual on how to kill a sage or commando healer: Just dps until they run out of mana, it will take a minute if you are alone and 15 secs if there are two of you. You don't need four people, cross-CC'ing, five helcopters and two jets.

Edited June 27, 2013 by MidichIorian

[NuSeC]

Its not the class that is OP, but rather the people fighting against it being UP.

 

This.

 

 

You take away all the big hitters.

 

Nerf the bursty classes and this is what you get.

 

Without high burst, you may as well go pick flowers, because you are not going to kill anything.

[Zunayson]

LOL! They needn't expend that much effort. The devs play the class, so it will be forever safe. No dev is going to take a pee in their beloved playground and make the game better for everyone.

 

you know, I could have sworn at launch the dev played a sorc... no was that the smasher?

 

Or was it the pyro?

 

Just shut up. If you cannot kill an operative healer, then you are bad.

[MidichIorian]

Just shut up. If you cannot kill an operative healer, then you are bad.

Said the guy who's burning down decent scoundrel healers on any class, apparently. Feel free to upload videos of you doing it on sorc, PT and merc, Mr Most likely playing deception. Edited June 27, 2013 by MidichIorian

[NuSeC]

you know, I could have sworn at launch the dev played a sorc... no was that the smasher?

 

Or was it the pyro?

 

Just shut up. If you cannot kill an operative healer, then you are bad.

 

Really?

 

Can you solo me on my OP? I mean what you are saying is that you're apparently more awesome than anyone talking about it so...

 

Can you solo my OP? I will answer that for you. no. You will not get a chance, as soon as it looks like I may die, I am going to pop evasion and vanish/roll away... go heal myself and snicker. then I will come back and heal anyone else you decided to pick on.

 

I have this class and I know what it does, I don't want it nerfed... no, I want the DPS of other classes brought into line with it.

[dcgregorya]

A cup of earl grey. And it's she btw.

 

That explains why you don't know what you're talking about.

[dcgregorya]

Its not the class that is OP, but rather the people fighting against it being UP.

 

You're so full of garbage its coming out of your ears. Apparently I'm godly powerful while playing my healing scoundrel and somehow all my skill vanishes playing a PT pyro. You're not good and your posts make me question if you even understand the game, so stop trying to label the success of operative healers now suddenly with you suddenly learning to play.

 

Sometimes when a class does well its really because the class itself is good. Not because somehow your own skill improved. No one is on here saying 'kweasea is OP, he needs to get toned down', they're talking from experience of hundreds of warzones across the various servers, from fighting against and playing as this spec. When I play scoundrel heals, it doesn't matter how many other healers are in the match, I"m going to double the top DPS in HPS and likely have zero or a very small number of deaths. This is the same when I fight the premades from the best guilds on the server or random PUGs. That's not become somehow 2.0 turned me into god with the class, it's because its over powered. It's so overpowered that when I play scoundrel DPS - even finishing as TOP DPS, people make me feel guilty that I'm "selfish" for not playing as heals. That's how ridiculously broken this spec is right now.

Edited June 27, 2013 by dcgregorya

[Boch]

You're so full of garbage its coming out of your ears. Apparently I'm godly powerful while playing my healing scoundrel and somehow all my skill vanishes playing a PT pyro. You're not good and your posts make me question if you even understand the game, so stop trying to label the success of operative healers now suddenly with you suddenly learning to play.

 

Sometimes when a class does well its really because the class itself is good. Not because somehow your own skill improved. No one is on here saying 'kweasea is OP, he needs to get toned down', they're talking from experience of hundreds of warzones across the various servers, from fighting against and playing as this spec. When I play scoundrel heals, it doesn't matter how many other healers are in the match, I"m going to double the top DPS in HPS and likely have zero or a very small number of deaths. This is the same when I fight the premades from the best guilds on the server or random PUGs. That's not become somehow 2.0 turned me into god with the class, it's because its over powered. It's so overpowered that when I play scoundrel DPS - even finishing as TOP DPS, people make me feel guilty that I'm "selfish" for not playing as heals. That's how ridiculously broken this spec is right now.

 

Sir around these parts we don't make sense when it comes OP classes we play. Let me help you out. From now on just type L2P baddies.

 

Nice post BTW.

[Zunayson]

Said the guy who's burning down decent scoundrel healers on any class, apparently. Feel free to upload videos of you doing it on sorc, PT and merc, Mr Most likely playing deception.

 

Carnage, vigilance, engineering. Maybe they're not decent. But they're easy for me, only difficult if they're being supported by tanks, but then by then 2v1 is a moot point

 

My sin is 43 got bored don't want to grind out voltaic slash again.

[SajPl]

Please buff smash, we need 20k damage instant aoes on a class with the best defensive cooldowns in the game.

[NuSeC]

Please buff smash, we need 20k damage instant aoes on a class with the best defensive cooldowns in the game.

 

I am sure that is what people are saying.

 

You can not kill a healer without burst. It is really just that simple.

 

Without burst you end up having to dedicate 2+ people every time to kill one person. And if cross healing you need 4. This is not just because the heals are so OP but because people cried about the bursty classes that had been around to deal with those classes.

 

The nerf on burst is what is causing this problem not the healers.

[dcgregorya]

Carnage, vigilance, engineering. Maybe they're not decent. But they're easy for me, only difficult if they're being supported by tanks, but then by then 2v1 is a moot point

 

My sin is 43 got bored don't want to grind out voltaic slash again.

 

Then I guess you're better somehow than the top rated teams on my server. Apparently they don't know what they're doing but somehow you do. Series of shots/speed shot is completely negated by dodge, which kills the burst off contingency charge->speed shot. Dodge entirely dodges blade rush, dispatch and precision strike and even the root from leap and master strike. Vigilance is a joke. Master strike is completely negated by dodge and the burns are physical so you can cleanse them.

 

Even if you're doing full DPS by yourself, unless you're standing against a wall eating rolls from an engineer sniper, your HPS is higher with no channeled heals besides kolto pack (which you can start casting after a cloak to prevent an interrupt thanks to latency issues in this game) than their DPS is. You need two people focusing you, at least, and depending on if the scoundrel is cybertech or not he has 3-4 stuns he can use to make sure he can outheal you. That's not including taunts, peels, guards and cross healing.

 

I just think you're either full of it when you say you're routinely soloing op healers easily or you have very selective memory and are discounting all the times you failed to do so.

[TyboJames]

That explains why you don't know what you're talking about.

 

That's pretty sexist...

[Fallenturtle]

It's not operative healers themselves, but healing as a whole in warzones is completely fracking ridiculous. there's only 2 classes in the game with a trauma debuff (snipers and marauders) and even then it isn't enough to make a healer sweat.. heaven forbid that healer has a guard on them.

 

people aren't quitting matches because of operative healers, they are quitting matches because who can fight 3-4 healers on a team at once. even if you focus fire one of them with your entire team, the others can just keep them up without any issue. so, in a game of 8 vs 4 (which is what this becomes in this senario) the team of 4 will win because of the state of healing leaving that team to have 4 other people to go play objectives such as scoring the huttball, capturing nodes etc.

[Targarion]

An op/scoundrel healer will go down pretty fast to 2 dps alternating CCS and interrupts if they are solo. It is when there is a tank guard and a side healer that they seem unkillable and OP. Because then it takes 3 dps or more to focus them down and groups that aren't very coordinated without voice chat have a very difficult time focusing that much dps and CCS and interrupts. But any class would seem OP with a pocket healer and guarded by a tank. If all dps mercs had their own pocket healers and were guarded by tanks everyone would be spamming the forums complaining how OP and unkilliable mercs were.

Healing was not a factor in this game for a long time. Spam dps could overpower even multiple heals. Now that healers have become players again, dps are wondering why they aren't still the only class that matters in the game. They want nerfs, Heals nerfed, Tank guard nerfed, taunts nerfed, scamper nerfed, CCs nerfed, bubbles nerfed, anything not dps nerfed. According to healers, everyone not dieing in a warzone is a success. But that is a dps's worst nightmare. There job is to make everyone die. Such a conflict of interests, eh?

 

I agree. You know what, after every patch, some class is going to have an easier time then the other classes at dealing heals or dps whatever. It so happens the operative/scoundrels turn to shine. So what. People need to stop with the qq over every class that happens to be the flavour of the month, because one day it's going to be your class, and then you can bust a nut being op to the chagrin of your peers. It's that simple.

 

I play a commando healer, apparently the lowest healing class in the game, but I am able to produce numbers along side equally geared scoundrel and sages.

 

Three well geared dps can burn down a healer any day of the week. I don't care how good you think you are, or well you can kite, give it time and you will go down. On the flip side, what happens in rank, great teams like Synergy takes three or four healers into a wz and win because no dps is going burn down four healers with powerful cross heals, but they aren't going to rake up kills either.

 

You fight fire with fire. And learn to adapt to your opponents. And yes some days you might accidently bring a knife to a gun fight. This is when rank ceases to be about individual skill and more about team work.

 

IMHO leave the operatives and scoundrels alone. They're fine, it's the rest of us that needs to adapt.

[NoTomorrow]

I agree. You know what, after every patch, some class is going to have an easier time then the other classes at dealing heals or dps whatever. It so happens the operative/scoundrels turn to shine. So what. People need to stop with the qq over every class that happens to be the flavour of the month, because one day it's going to be your class, and then you can bust a nut being op to the chagrin of your peers. It's that simple.

 

 

No offense, but you are basically promoting a FOTM concept of the game balancing, which i will hardly consider a good approach to balancing the game.

Edited June 27, 2013 by NoTomorrow

[K_osss]

One of these things is not like the others.

 

Lol! I know what it is

[Selout]

Let me start off by saying, that Bioware has something good here with the PvP balance. Most of the classes feel really really good and have a place which is why the Operative/Scound healing situation is so frustrating. Let's all hope they will move quickly to remedy this obvious class imbalance and do it in the right way.

 

Now, on to the crux of the problem... as I see it. Let's talk survivability and healing throughput in PvP. If you look at the other 2 healing advanced classes, they are reasonably balanced and offer good survivability & healing of other players. If played skillfully the other two ac's can be very effective and be a benefit to the team. Neither are over-powered in the slightest.

 

Operative and Scound healers on the other hand are playing with way too many tools in their bag. A skilled Operative/Scound can literally never die if they don't want to but, the real problem lies within their ability to never die AND have without question the best healing throughput of all the healers in PvP. On top of having the best PvP healing throughput in the game, they also have to stand and hard cast the least. Not really a good design in my opinion. Hot's and instant-cast heals are a part of all MMO's but they are normally regarded as a supplement to hard-casted heals. When hot's and instant-cast heals are too powerful, it dramatically lowers the skill required to be effective. You never have to make hard decisions. You are basically limited by the global cooldown and ability cooldown. That is sort of absurd.

 

The other main issue, the one that I think is less of a problem but coupled with the best heals makes it over-the-top, is the utility and survivability Operatives and Scounds bring to the table. I understand all classes need abilities to make them unique and play differently from one another. However, when 2 of the other ac's have far less of that utility that presents a problem. No other healer can solo cap a node, and no other healer can literally be the first one to grab the ball in Huttball every time. That just sends them far over the top in their "combat effectiveness" in contrast to the other two healers. Yes, Sage/Sorc's get Rescue/Extrication and that is some utility that is very handy. I am not opposed to heals having that utility but I would hope that it would be applied evenly across the 3 ac healers. Their defensives are without question the best in the game for a healer. If played correctly, a Operative/Scound can literally never die. Remember, I said if played correctly. Not to be mean, but those of you in this thread saying "Oh, I can die to a solo blah blah blah" I regret to inform you, you aren't doing it right.

 

I hope Bioware will be swift in their response to this obvious imbalance and not kick the can down the road to 2.4. I know that is their PvP patch and it will undoubtedly have a ton more class changes. I hope we aren't just expected to play the game this way until October. I certainly won't be doing so if they can't implement change on a faster time-table. So, here's to fact action and not over-nerfing Operative/Scound's.

Edited June 28, 2013 by Selout

[MotorCityMan]

Op/Scoundrel Heals need to be nerfed 50 %. Also, the game needs to auto target Healers with a big red X upon entering a warzone. This will save dps from having to hold up on their smash long enough to identify an healer and mark them. They should also be fitted with bells for those with impaired vision. The warzone Ops leader should have a feature that when activated immediately switches all dps's targets to the healer. Dps will not be allowed to attack anything else as long as this feature is activated.

 

Healers should not be able to move in a warzone without first activating a back up alarm. The back up alarm will sound and big red X target marker will blink for 10 seconds before any movement is permitted, so dps will not be caught unawares of impending movement by the healer.

 

Same team players who are to receive healing, must first submit form SC-1069 in triplicate found under UI controls, for each heal before any healing can be dispensed. Healers are cautioned on using their aoe heals in this regard, as their cast ability will be suspended for 25 seconds if a player receives a heal without having first filled out the required form.

 

Players are reminded that peeling for an healer will cause them to become immobile but attackable for 30 seconds.

 

Lastly, should the above measures fail to result in the death of a healer, the game will automatically strike the healer dead every 2 minutes. This is to done to simulate the accumulated attacks of competent dps should an opposing team be devoid of same, and insure an even flow of warzone deaths.

Edited June 28, 2013 by MotorCityMan

[Selout]

Lol, you jest but even Operatives/Scound's say it's too easy and broken. The rest of the community shouldn't have to suffer because you might find it hard. Perhaps you should consult some good Op/Scound heals on Bastion. They can show you the ways of ease and cheese. Edited June 28, 2013 by Selout