Most powerful Sith Lord ever (essential read)

[Lord_Karsk]

BTW from eps III novel in your face, movie novels triumph any EU novel.

 

Yoda went after Palpatine in the empty Senate chamber, but could not defeat the most powerful Sith Lord in history.

Edited June 19, 2013 by Lord_Karsk

[Beniboybling]

The combined might of "prepared" 11 Dark Councilors (of different capabilities each logically) is logically more potent force to neutralize then any single individual's defensive capabilities. And I have proved with an example that Sidious's defensive abilities can be undermined by relatively inferior Force-users; just one admirable technique/power is required.

 

So yes, Tenebrae can one-shot Sidious, if fully prepared, by virtue of the available evidence. However, Sidious can also one-shot Tenebrae, if he gets the opportunity to unleash his Force Storm upon him. I am being totally fair and logical here. In short, during ideal conditions, both can just one-shot each other.

 

All potential if(s) and but(s) have been addressed by me in previous discussions.

 

Yes, if both are pitted against each other (in WTH moment) then it is possible that the battle between them may reach epic proportions with one of them edging out in the end; this one can go either way too.

Well we're just going to have to agree to disagree on that matter, for various reasons.

[Mekkanon]

Read the entire thread.

Some arguments are really good and some people are just trying to troll...

The only conclusion i can draw from all of it though is that:

Sidious is the strongest Sith Lord of all times (Light sabre skills combined with force knowledge and his influence on the galaxy)

I believe Luke Skywalker is the strongest Jedi ever

 

But

The Emperor is the strongest force user ever.

While Both Sideous and Luke had mastered the use and control of the force neither of them come close to what the emperor could achieve.

If the HoT hadnt come along he would have become a god able to visit all galaxies ever.

None of the other contenders had this knowledge/power.

Yet being a Sith Lord is not about being able to wield the force alone.

[Lord_Karsk]

 

But

The Emperor is the strongest force user ever.

While Both Sideous and Luke had mastered the use and control of the force neither of them come close to what the emperor could achieve.

.

 

Plis this makes you look like a fool plis atleast have some info on star wars reality before you make up your own facts.

Luke is the king of force users, to even atempt to challenge this super canon fact on a gaming forums is beyond silly.

Trying to say something else is like saying star wars dont exist so plis just plis mkay......

[RTCBrad]

BTW from eps III novel in your face, movie novels triumph any EU novel.

 

Keep in mind this was said before Vitiate as a character existed.

[S_W_LeGenD]

Well we're just going to have to agree to disagree on that matter, for various reasons.

And what are these reasons? The purpose of my thread is to address misconceptions about both characters (Sidious and Tenebrae) so I would welcome any kind of input and address it if necessary.

 

Coping out portrays an image of fanboy-ism which is not positive behavior in debates.

 

Your perception that "stronger individual can defend better" is too black and white; this is not necessarily the case. Most important thing is proficiency in defensive applications of the Force which any powerful and talented individual can achieve. Of-course, enormous raw power is a blessing on top of having proficiency in defensive applications but Sidious is not so good at defending himself; he focused more on honing his skills in the offensive use of the Force rather then defensive. Relatively inferior Force-users have nearly ragdolled him with their telekinetic abilities and even severed his connection to the Force. All of these are important signs that you overlooking. None of these relatively inferior Force-users have demonstrated powers so lethal which would one-shot multiple prodigiously talented Sith Lords simultaneously and yet they overcame Sidious's defensive capabilities.

 

Look at this fight:

 

 

It was no good. Abeloth had a dozen times the Force strength Luke had, and he could do no more than keep her from crushing his throat. He tried to bring his knee up and found his legs incapable of moving. She straightened her leg, forcing his knee to bend against the joint, and something gave with a muted pop. He slammed a Force-enhanced knuckle strike into her side and heard three ribs snap … and remained entangled. She dug her nails into the root of his ear, then twisted, and his head erupted in pain. He slipped his deactivated lightsaber between their bodies and jammed the blade emitter against her stomach. He thumbed the activation slide and saw the blade shoot out the other side.

 

Still Abeloth held on, clinging to him like a self-tightening cargo cable. It seemed impossible to shake her, and Luke knew that he had to. To fail was to die, and take Ben with him. He reached out with the Force, grabbing for anything that might help him, anything to give him a second or a centimeter to counterattack.

 

Half a dozen loose cushions rose from the seating tiers and bounced harmlessly past. He continued to reach, felt something heavy and liquid rising from the stage floor, and a glob of molten heat arced onto them, splashing across Abeloth’s back and spattering off the floor, driving tiny pin*****s of anguish into Luke’s arm and face where it hit him. A hundred-voiced wail erupted from Abeloth’s mouth, shrill and loud and inhuman. Plumes of greasy smoke shot from her back, and the smell of charred flesh grew sickening in the air. The heat of the magma burned through Abeloth’s body to sear him, and he heard organs sizzling inside her chest. Any normal being would have been dead by now. But Abeloth seemed to live in the Force as much as she did in a physical body, and now she was using the Force to animate a body that should have been in its death throes.

 

Finally, the pressure on Luke’s throat eased—not much, but enough to draw breath. It made him hope he might survive … at least fight a few moments more. He continued to reach with the Force, now going higher toward the ceiling vault, and caught hold of one of the long crossbeams that held the roof in place. Luke pulled, trying to open a little space so he could gain his feet and fight, and they both began to rise. Abeloth pulled in the opposite direction, and they dropped back to the floor. Luke opened himself more fully to the Force, using his love for Ben and his lost wife and the entire Jedi Order to draw it into him. The foul miasma of dark side energy, still swirling into Abeloth, seeped into him, filling him with greasy nausea. But the light side rushed in, flowing in from all sides, pouring through him like fire. A golden glow began to rise from his skin—cells literally bursting with the power of the Force—and Luke felt them both start upward again. Abeloth countered, hissing in anger, and they hovered a hand span above the floor.

 

A tremendous crack echoed down from the vaulted ceiling. They dropped again, hitting so hard that Luke’s breath left in a groan. Abeloth slammed down atop him, her single leg still wrapped around his, the stump of her arm driving harder into his throat. Something crunched in his larynx. His breath came in shallow, wheezy gasps, and the crushing hand of panic began to clench at his heart.

 

Then a two-meter length of beam came plummeting out of the darkness and caught Abeloth across the back. The impact compressed his chest until he thought it would split. Then her leg went slack, her stump slipped from Luke’s throat, and she fell motionless, her face pressed against his, cheek-to-cheek.

 

Luke planted his feet flat on the floor and bridged, trying to throw her off. The effort rolled waves of agony up his rib cage, and Abeloth’s leg and hips slid to one side, limp and loose. But the rest of her remained on top of him, pinned in place by the heavy beam. Guessing that her spine had been crushed, he pressed his lightsaber’s blade emitter against her flank. Akanah’s voice sounded in his ear. (Star Wars: Fate of the Jedi: Vortex)

 

 

This example reveals that, regardless of enormous raw power, Abeloth was not able to shield her host's body from damage being dealt to it by external efforts. She kept the body animated until it was badly ruined. Now this should make it clear that it is asinine to assume that raw power alone offers protection against offensive applications of the Force; it doesn't. Defensive applications have to be learned and mastered.

 

Another example is Galen was able to handle Sidious's lightning better then Yoda and the latter is stronger, right? So this suggests that Yoda didn't gained as much proficiency in defending himself using Tutaminis abilities then Galen did. Whether Yoda could hone his skills further in this talent is another debate but possible but we have to work with what we have got.

 

Therefore, your assumption that Sidious would somehow be able to defend himself against the mysterious power when 11 other prodigiously talented Sith Lords couldn't is asinine. The manner in which thus mysterious power destroyed those Sith Lords should leave no doubt that it is too potent to defend against with defensive applications of the Force regardless of an individual's power.

 

"There are techniques in the Force against which there is no defense" (Darth Traya)

 

This is why I believe that immortality is best form of protection. No, it doesn't makes an individual invincible but it grants the individual the capability to survive in the form of essence in a worst case scenario.

Edited June 19, 2013 by S_W_LeGenD

[Kaedusz]

Did you not see Sidious vs Maul and Savage in TCW ? Vitate was weaker then Savage alone and Savage was strong.

Sidious vs Yoda hello ! when ever could Vitiate throw things around like that with eas ? never as he is much weaker.

 

You are kidding/trolling right?

[S_W_LeGenD]

This discussion has got a little silly now.

 

Lets face It, in the real world I could "one shot" Mike Tyson if I crept up behind him with an iron bar.

It haven't. Some members do not have grasp of "ground realities" of certain things in the Star Wars.

 

See all the information that I offered in my post (# 131) to understand my point.

 

I believe that both can one-shot each other with their "most" potent powers if they get the opportunity to do so. However, this wouldn't be the norm since not every fight is same; only in those fights in which they get the opportunity to summon such powers without getting struck down first.

Edited June 19, 2013 by S_W_LeGenD

[Mekkanon]

Plis this makes you look like a fool plis atleast have some info on star wars reality before you make up your own facts.

Luke is the king of force users, to even atempt to challenge this super canon fact on a gaming forums is beyond silly.

Trying to say something else is like saying star wars dont exist so plis just plis mkay......

 

This is what GL stated

If Anakin had remained a Jedi, he would have eventually become the most powerful Jedi of all time. However, this did not happen since Anakin fell to the dark side during Revenge of the Sith. Since Luke is the son of Anakin who is the chosen one, it really makes sense for Luke to become the greatest Jedi Knight in existence. The will of the Force chose Luke to be the best.

http://www.supershadow.com/george_lucas/interview/32.html

 

"No matter what Jedi and Sith are to come, or have been, none of them ever matched up to Luke Skywalker."

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Luke_Skywalker

 

He is the greatest Jedi in existence.

Since he outclassed the greatest Sith and mastered both the dark side and the light side

He is the greatest Sith/Jedi Ever. I Agree.

 

However, in the case i was mentioning im talking about Greatest Force user

While Jedi's are in fact force users jedis are more than that.

 

An Analogy

While Messi is considered by many to be the greatest football player ever. There are other football players better at taking free kicks.

Messi = Luke

Taking a free kick is the force..

 

 

On vitate.

The Sith Emperor has mastered the dark side's power to become the most dominating Force-user the galaxy has ever seen. (SWTOR: Codex Entry)

 

Luke was never able to become a god, surpassing time and space.

The emperor didnt became one because he was foiled.

HOWEVER

It is stated that he would have become a god and everything was in place to make him a god.

 

No matter how he did it. If you can use the force to become a god, youre the strongest force wielder ever.

Gods>people that can die. (which is why immortal is used to often in SW lore: Immortal means unable to die or be killed. Immortal: One not subject to death. yet all these immortals can die...)

 

Because of semantics this is open to debate.

Could you be more condesending plis?

[Beniboybling]

S_W_LeGenD I've been giving by reasons for about 5+ pages now. That is what we have been debating. You clearly don't agree with me, and I respect that, I possess no canonical statements to say you are wrong and neither do you. We are at an impasse. Until Vitiate defeats someone instantly of Sidious' caliber, neither us can objectively say we are right and wrong.

 

Basically, continuing this debate has no purpose and will lead nowhere.

Edited June 19, 2013 by Beniboybling

[Beniboybling]

And what are these reasons? The purpose of my thread is to address misconceptions about both characters (Sidious and Tenebrae) so I would welcome any kind of input and address it if necessary.

 

Coping out portrays an image of fanboy-ism which is not positive behavior in debates.

 

Your perception that "stronger individual can defend better" is too black and white; this is not necessarily the case. Most important thing is proficiency in defensive applications of the Force which any powerful and talented individual can achieve. Of-course, enormous raw power is a blessing on top of having proficiency in defensive applications but Sidious is not so good at defending himself; he focused more on honing his skills in the offensive use of the Force rather then defensive. Relatively inferior Force-users have nearly ragdolled him with their telekinetic abilities and even severed his connection to the Force. All of these are important signs that you overlooking. None of these relatively inferior Force-users have demonstrated powers so lethal which would one-shot multiple prodigiously talented Sith Lords simultaneously and yet they overcame Sidious's defensive capabilities.

 

Look at this fight:

 

 

It was no good. Abeloth had a dozen times the Force strength Luke had, and he could do no more than keep her from crushing his throat. He tried to bring his knee up and found his legs incapable of moving. She straightened her leg, forcing his knee to bend against the joint, and something gave with a muted pop. He slammed a Force-enhanced knuckle strike into her side and heard three ribs snap … and remained entangled. She dug her nails into the root of his ear, then twisted, and his head erupted in pain. He slipped his deactivated lightsaber between their bodies and jammed the blade emitter against her stomach. He thumbed the activation slide and saw the blade shoot out the other side.

 

Still Abeloth held on, clinging to him like a self-tightening cargo cable. It seemed impossible to shake her, and Luke knew that he had to. To fail was to die, and take Ben with him. He reached out with the Force, grabbing for anything that might help him, anything to give him a second or a centimeter to counterattack.

 

Half a dozen loose cushions rose from the seating tiers and bounced harmlessly past. He continued to reach, felt something heavy and liquid rising from the stage floor, and a glob of molten heat arced onto them, splashing across Abeloth’s back and spattering off the floor, driving tiny pin*****s of anguish into Luke’s arm and face where it hit him. A hundred-voiced wail erupted from Abeloth’s mouth, shrill and loud and inhuman. Plumes of greasy smoke shot from her back, and the smell of charred flesh grew sickening in the air. The heat of the magma burned through Abeloth’s body to sear him, and he heard organs sizzling inside her chest. Any normal being would have been dead by now. But Abeloth seemed to live in the Force as much as she did in a physical body, and now she was using the Force to animate a body that should have been in its death throes.

 

Finally, the pressure on Luke’s throat eased—not much, but enough to draw breath. It made him hope he might survive … at least fight a few moments more. He continued to reach with the Force, now going higher toward the ceiling vault, and caught hold of one of the long crossbeams that held the roof in place. Luke pulled, trying to open a little space so he could gain his feet and fight, and they both began to rise. Abeloth pulled in the opposite direction, and they dropped back to the floor. Luke opened himself more fully to the Force, using his love for Ben and his lost wife and the entire Jedi Order to draw it into him. The foul miasma of dark side energy, still swirling into Abeloth, seeped into him, filling him with greasy nausea. But the light side rushed in, flowing in from all sides, pouring through him like fire. A golden glow began to rise from his skin—cells literally bursting with the power of the Force—and Luke felt them both start upward again. Abeloth countered, hissing in anger, and they hovered a hand span above the floor.

 

A tremendous crack echoed down from the vaulted ceiling. They dropped again, hitting so hard that Luke’s breath left in a groan. Abeloth slammed down atop him, her single leg still wrapped around his, the stump of her arm driving harder into his throat. Something crunched in his larynx. His breath came in shallow, wheezy gasps, and the crushing hand of panic began to clench at his heart.

 

Then a two-meter length of beam came plummeting out of the darkness and caught Abeloth across the back. The impact compressed his chest until he thought it would split. Then her leg went slack, her stump slipped from Luke’s throat, and she fell motionless, her face pressed against his, cheek-to-cheek.

 

Luke planted his feet flat on the floor and bridged, trying to throw her off. The effort rolled waves of agony up his rib cage, and Abeloth’s leg and hips slid to one side, limp and loose. But the rest of her remained on top of him, pinned in place by the heavy beam. Guessing that her spine had been crushed, he pressed his lightsaber’s blade emitter against her flank. Akanah’s voice sounded in his ear. (Star Wars: Fate of the Jedi: Vortex)

 

 

This example reveals that, regardless of enormous raw power, Abeloth was not able to shield her host's body from damage being dealt to it by external efforts. She kept the body animated until it was badly ruined. Now this should make it clear that it is asinine to assume that raw power alone offers protection against offensive applications of the Force; it doesn't. Defensive applications have to be learned and mastered.

 

Another example is Galen was able to handle Sidious's lightning better then Yoda and the latter is stronger, right? So this suggests that Yoda didn't gained as much proficiency in defending himself using Tutaminis abilities then Galen did. Whether Yoda could hone his skills further in this talent is another debate but possible but we have to work with what we have got.

 

Therefore, your assumption that Sidious would somehow be able to defend himself against the mysterious power when 11 other prodigiously talented Sith Lords couldn't is asinine. The manner in which thus mysterious power destroyed those Sith Lords should leave no doubt that it is too potent to defend against with defensive applications of the Force regardless of an individual's power.

 

"There are techniques in the Force against which there is no defense" (Darth Traya)

 

This is why I believe that immortality is best form of protection. No, it doesn't makes an individual invincible but it grants the individual the capability to survive in the form of essence in a worst case scenario.

OK I shouldn't get dragged back into this debate but I'd like to point out some misconceptions:

 

Abeloth was not harmed by a Force power, but by magma or whatever it was. There is a difference because every Force user has something called a Force shield which protects them from Force-based attacks. Though not normal attacks such as flammable material and objects. As I said the difference between offensive abilities and defensive abilities is nil. A powerful Force user is equal in both respects. But anyway, Force shield is a natural ability that protects the user from Force based attacks. It is not something you need to hone, it comes naturally. This much is explained in Darth Bane And the more powerful you are, the stronger your shields. Hence why Force users don't go around choking each other and slamming each other about. And Force lightning has less of an effect on some than others

 

E.g. Galen Marek and all the stormtroopers were killed in the explosion of Sidious' lightning yet Sidious and Vader survived because they had superior Force shields. This is also how the strongest members of the Jedi strike team were able to resist Vitiate's lightning despite it crackling all around them.

 

Another example would be how Anakin was incapacitated by a blast of Dooku's lighting as he was a young Padawan who had not yet reached his full potential. While Yoda managed to recover from a full on blast from Sidious - lightning for more potent - because he was exceptionally more powerful.

 

Again, we don't know the nature of the 'mysterious power' so we cannot make much comment. But if it is a Force based attack Sidious' natural shields (which are incredibly strong as he is incredibly strong) will absorb the brunt of the attack and he would likely survive. So yes, power is all that's importance in this respect.

 

Secondly, Galen did not handle Sidious' lightning as well as Yoda. I'm not sure how you reached that conclusion as the circumstances are practically identical yet Yoda survived and Starkiller died. Simply re-observing the incidents makes this clear, Yoda survives,

. Starkiller caught his lightning, and tried to redirect, but the process killed him, he was overwhelmed by Sidious power. Yoda caught Sidious' lighting, and attempted to redirect it, he was almost successful yet the power became too concentrated and exploded, but the blast did not kill him. Yoda is therefore more powerful.

 

And you can bring up the quote by Traya all you like, but you forget she was referring to Force drain specifically. Force drain cannot be blocked by Force barrier, it can only be endured. The only way to protect against it is simply by being more powerful than your attacker.

 

But like I said, we possess no objective facts on the matter. Even the combined strength of the DC does not match Sidious power in the slightest. So again, no objective conclusion can be reached. We can only agree to disagree.

 

P.S Sidious achieved immortality by the way.

[Beniboybling]

*snip*

Firstly, I wouldn't bother debating with that guy. He is a troll and will only respond with arbitrary nonsense and insults, its really not worth your time. However I will point out some problems here.

 

Firstly the website you source quote has no affiliation with Star Wars at all, they just make up crap and pretend they are 'friends' with George Lucas. They are not, don't believe anything they say, its all complete and utter rubbish.

 

That said, Lucas has made comments referring to Anakin and Luke which reach similar conclusions, but its the differences that is important. Firstly let's address the canon reality.

 

The Sith Emperor is the most powerful Force user to ever exist up until that point as the statement is made in the context of the Old Republic era. This means he is more powerful than anyone who has come before him.

 

Darth Sidious is the most powerful dark side user to ever exist in the context of the Rise of the Empire and Rebellion era's which come after the Old Republic era. Sidious is therefore more powerful than any other dark sider who has come before him, including the Sith Emperor. Simply put, Vitiate was top-dog then Sidious knocked him of his pedestal.

 

Now, onto Anakin and Luke. George Lucas has stated that Anakin after becoming Darth Vader achieved 80% of Sidious' power, but if he had not received such injuries he had the potential to become twice as powerful. Lucas also stated that Luke Skywalker achieved the potential of the Chosen One so he therefore become twice as powerful as Darth Sidious, the most powerful dark sider in galactic history.

 

We can therefore logically infer that Luke Skywalker is the most powerful Force user in galactic history, more powerful than Sidious and therefore more powerful than the Sith Emperor.

 

So essentially according to canon, it goes like this:

 

Luke Skywalker > Darth Sidious > Vitiate.

[mefit]

S_W_LeGenD I have to say I have never seen someone able to write like Beniboybling and keep up in debate with him . Its kinda refreshing to see someone of your ability to maintain good grammar and knowledge of StarWars .

 

Its almost like you and Beni are the same person with conflicting personalities !

 

Because of the debate you two have held , this is probably my favorite thread and I look forward to future debates by you two !

Edited June 19, 2013 by mefit

[S_W_LeGenD]

S_W_LeGenD I've been giving by reasons for about 5+ pages now. That is what we have been debating. You clearly don't agree with me, and I respect that, I possess no canonical statements to say you are wrong and neither do you. We are at an impasse. Until Vitiate defeats someone instantly of Sidious' caliber, neither us can objectively say we are right and wrong.

 

Basically, continuing this debate has no purpose and will lead nowhere.

Your reasons are solely based on "power" factor which doesn't works. A relatively stronger Force-user is not required to undermine Sidious's defensive capabilities. Power and protection are not correlated in the manner as you assume. More information below which will hopefully help you understand my reasoning.

 

OK I shouldn't get dragged back into this debate but I'd like to point out some misconceptions:

 

Abeloth was not harmed by a Force power, but by magma or whatever it was. There is a difference because every Force user has something called a Force shield which protects them from Force-based attacks. Though not normal attacks such as flammable material and objects.

Really?

 

Example 1:

 

 

Through the haze of indescribable pain, he saw T3-M4 rushing in to help him. The droid let loose with his flamethrower, bathing the Emperor in fire. At the last instant the Emperor cocooned himself in the Force to save himself from being incinerated, breaking his focus on Revan. (Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan)

 

 

Tenebrae managed to protect himself from a flamethrower assault, even though he was not expecting it to be unleashed upon him while he was preoccupied with Revan. His prodigious command in the defensive applications of the Force saved him from getting incinerated.

 

Example 2:

 

Malgus literally blunted the impact of a direct SLM (Shoulder Launched Missile) hit scored on him during his battle against Malcom on Aldeeran. Check

.

 

Example 3:

 

Satele shan used her bare hands to absorb lightsaber blade itself. The video cited above depicts this event as well.

 

Defensive applications of the Force can work against any kind of external threat and not just Force powers. Your assumption is not correct.

 

As I said the difference between offensive abilities and defensive abilities is nil. A powerful Force user is equal in both respects.

Your assumption is not correct.

 

But anyway, Force shield is a natural ability that protects the user from Force based attacks. It is not something you need to hone, it comes naturally. This much is explained in Darth Bane And the more powerful you are, the stronger your shields. Hence why Force users don't go around choking each other and slamming each other about. And Force lightning has less of an effect on some than others

Their are some Force powers against which no kind of defensive application is known to work. Try to understand this. Of-course, such powers are "rare" and not in abundance.

 

E.g. Galen Marek and all the stormtroopers were killed in the explosion of Sidious' lightning yet Sidious and Vader survived because they had superior Force shields. This is also how the strongest members of the Jedi strike team were able to resist Vitiate's lightning despite it crackling all around them.

Galen Marek "willingly" gave up himself to the Force, so he doesn't counts. Those stormtroopers were utterly defenseless; they could not use the Force to protect themselves like Vader and Sidious could. This example does not justifies your assumption at all. More information in this regard given below.

 

Another example would be how Anakin was incapacitated by a blast of Dooku's lighting as he was a young Padawan who had not yet reached his full potential. While Yoda managed to recover from a full on blast from Sidious - lightning for more potent - because he was exceptionally more powerful.

Or more learned in the ways of the Force? Yoda utilized his proficiency in Tutaminis to absorb and redirect Dooku's lightning back at him. In contrast, Obi-Wan was not as much learned in the ways of the Force so he used a lightsaber to defend himself against Dooku's Force lightning. Power alone does not makes difference, it simply enhances biological durability; key to protect biological bodies from many forms of external threats is through acquiring Force based talents which make this possible.

 

Again, we don't know the nature of the 'mysterious power' so we cannot make much comment. But if it is a Force based attack Sidious' natural shields (which are incredibly strong as he is incredibly strong) will absorb the brunt of the attack and he would likely survive. So yes, power is all that's importance in this respect.

If Sidious's natural shields are so good then why they didn't prevent him from getting nearly rag-dolled by telekinetic abilities of his opponent and even his connection with the Force ending up severed? Do you get the memo still?

 

Secondly, Galen did not handle Sidious' lightning as well as Yoda. I'm not sure how you reached that conclusion as the circumstances are practically identical yet Yoda survived and Starkiller died. Simply re-observing the incidents makes this clear, Yoda survives,

. Starkiller caught his lightning, and tried to redirect, but the process killed him, he was overwhelmed by Sidious power. Yoda caught Sidious' lighting, and attempted to redirect it, he was almost successful yet the power became too concentrated and exploded, but the blast did not kill him. Yoda is therefore more powerful.

Really?

 

Here is canonical description of the event:

 

 

Kota fell with his arms upraised, and the apprentice knew that it wasn't over yet. The moment of truth had arrived.

 

Without hesitation, he stepped between Kota and the Emperor, taking the full brunt of the Sith lightning into his own body.

 

The pain was incredible, searing every nerve back to its individual cells, skewering each of them on white-hot needles. He had never before felt anything like this. He wanted to recoil from the source, to curl into a ball and let unconsciousness take the pain away, but somehow he stayed standing, seeing the world through a crackling blue light, and even took a step toward the Emperor.

 

"Go!" he hissed at Kota. "Hurry!"

 

The general hesitated only for a moment. He, too, had seen a glimpse of the future, the apprentice remembered. He knew that it came down to a simple choice: him and the Rebels or the apprentice and darkness forever. Gathering up the Rebels, Kola ushered them toward the descending ship.

 

Another staggering, painful step and the Emperor was within the apprentice's reach. With shaking fingers, he took the old man's bony shoulders in his hands and gripped them tight. The Sith lightning spread to engulf the two of them, fueled by both their desperations. The Emperor tipped back his head and howled in lascivious pain. Darkness threatened to envelop the apprentice's mind, but he clutched to consciousness with feverish will. He had to see this through. He had to.

 

A squadron of stormtroopers ran into the room, led by a limping Darth Vader. They raised their blasters to gun down the Rebels as they fled up the Rogue Shadow's ramp.

 

"No!" the apprentice cried, dropping his defenses to strike one last time at the Imperials. Energy surged through him. He felt as though a star had blazed to life in his chest. Driven by concern for his friends rather than himself, he embraced the Force completely, utterly, and was rewarded with strength that made his efforts with the dark side look like those of a child. His nerves were on fire. Streamers of light radiated from his skin. His bones glowed like radiant lava.

 

He saw rather than felt the massive shock wave that consumed a large portion of what remained of the observation dome. A glowing bubble of fire tore the stormtroopers to shreds and engulfed Vader and the Emperor. Shrapnel filled the air like dust caught in the beam of the Death Star's powerful laser.

 

Tossed like a leaf, the Rogue Shadow fled in haste, ramp snapping shut on its precious cargo.

 

The apprentice felt himself leaving his body again. Or was his body leaving him this time? He felt ripped apart by the energy that had flowed through him. Every cell was in shock; every fiber shook. The fire on his face possessed no heat at all. His limbs felt as distant as the farthest arms of the galaxy. He was amazed there was enough left of him to think at all.

 

Weakened by the blast, the dome's supports gave way. It collapsed into the superlaser dish, triggering a series of conventional explosions. Stormtroopers converged on the site. Through the dense smoke, two figures were visible from the apprentice's rarefied perspective.

 

Darth Vader struggled to his feet from the rubble, even more damaged than before. He reached out for support and found only his Master, scowling.

 

Together, unspeaking, they searched the rubble.

 

(Star Wars: The Force Unleashed (NOVEL))

 

 

Galen willingly gave up himself to the Force (after momentarily dropping his defenses while enduring Sidious' lightning even during this moment) to save his allies from getting killed but not before giving Sidious a taste of his own medicine. It is not clear how long Galen would have lasted otherwise but then that holds true for Sidious as well since he felt similar level of pain as Galen did with his own power; relatively greater power didn't increase his tolerance capacity. My point holds.

 

And you can bring up the quote by Traya all you like, but you forget she was referring to Force drain specifically. Force drain cannot be blocked by Force barrier, it can only be endured. The only way to protect against it is simply by being more powerful than your attacker.

Possible since I have seen cases in the mythos in which Force Drain attacks have been tolerated but this could be due to them having acquired the talent to repel Force Drain. Meetra survived it by being a wound in the Force, if I recall correctly.

 

What about Nihilus's signature power?

 

But like I said, we possess no objective facts on the matter. Even the combined strength of the DC does not match Sidious power in the slightest. So again, no objective conclusion can be reached. We can only agree to disagree.

In holistic sense, this might be the case, but such a potent force will outclass him in combat situations; have Sidious demonstrated the capability to one-shot so many powerful opponents simultaneously barring his Force Storm capability? I doubt it. The combined might (or skill-set) of so many powerful opponents would be "conventionally" greater then that of any single individual because it would be suicidal to fight all of such opponents together; solution is to unleash such a power against which their is no form of defense. No wonder, Tenebrae chose to not bombard them with his lightning or something but rather unleashed his most (or one of the) most lethal power on them which is unknown to us.

 

 

In his relentless pursuit of immortality, the Emperor explored the most sinister, uncharted depths of the dark side. (SWTORE, Page 161)

 

 

EDIT: One of the objectives of Tenebrae was to improve his safeguard against all forms of external threats. He studied dark side a lot for this purpose as well; his ultimate plan was to make himself invincible.

 

P.S Sidious achieved immortality by the way.

I know and he may survive as an essence. I am open to this possibility.

 

S_W_LeGenD I have to say I have never seen someone able to write like Beniboybling and keep up in debate with him . Its kinda refreshing to see someone of your ability to maintain good grammar and knowledge of StarWars .

 

Its almost like you and Beni are the same person with conflicting personalities !

 

Because of the debate you two have held , this is probably my favorite thread and I look forward to future debates by you two !

Thank you

Edited June 19, 2013 by S_W_LeGenD

[Beniboybling]

S_W_LeGenD, I never said a Force user can't defend against non-Force based attacks, but that non-Force based attacks and Force-based attacks are different and therefore your example is inapplicable to the debate at hand. I'd agree that Vitiate could potentially 'one-shot' Sidious by pouring a whole bunch of lava on him, but that doesn't count as it is not one of Vitiate's abilities. This however cannot be carried across to the debate at hand, because lets say that somehow that lava was imbued with Force energy, Sidious' natural Force barrier would defend himself from it and he'd survive the encounter. Likewise if Luke tried to zap Abeloth with Electric Judgement she would likely receive little/no damage because her vast Force barriers would absorb the attack.

 

Basically, non-Force abilities and Force abilities cannot be compared, because they are defended against in different ways. To be specific, the former actively and the latter passively. Although the latter can be defended against actively as well, while the former cannot be defended against passively i.e. by being extremely powerful (though being extremely durable would help.)

 

Sidious can absorb anything Vitiate throws at him with Force barrier, anything. As an exceptionally powerful Force user his Force barrier is naturally exceptionally strong as it scales with his Force abilities - this is how the power operates. This is not my opinion, this is not an arbitrary statement, this is canon fact deep seated in Star Wars lore. Drew's Darth Bane gives further details. To explain further:

 

Let's say Sidious has a Force attack rating of 10, he therefore naturally has a Force (passive) defense rating of 10. Of which to break would need someone with an attack rating of above 10 at the very, very least.

 

Vitiate, being canonically less powerful, has an attack rating of say 8, he therefore naturally has a Force (passive) defense rating of 8. He cannot therefore overcome Sidious' 10 defense rating as he is not powerful enough - he cannot break through his Force barrier, its just plain impossible - he could only do so by weakening Sidious first (when you weaken, your Force barrier weakens, hence why Force chokes, lifts etc. always come last in a battle.) Basically, he cannot 'one-shot' him. He cannot destroy him in a single, opening attack, because Sidious' vastly powerful, natural Force barriers would absorb said attack. This has been frequently demonstrated in just about every piece of lore involving Force users. This is why not everyone is incinerated by Force lightning, this is why I am arguing that Sidious can't be destroyed in a single blast simply because he is too powerful. Just as a average Sith could fry a bunny with lightning but not a Jedi. Vitiate is no exception to this rule, swap average Sith with Vitiate and Jedi with Sidious and the outcome is just the same. This is just how the Force works. I cannot make myself anymore plain if I tried.

 

If you disagree with me, I dare you to find a single example when a powerful Force user has had their Force barriers broken (Force drain does not break, it bypasses) without being weakened. I promise you that you will not find a single one - because it is impossible. This is an indisputable canon fact of the Star Wars universe I'm afraid.

 

Now, yes there are some powers that can bypass such barriers (well only one known power - Force drain) but as of yet we do not know if Vitiate is capable of such powers. We have no information on this 'mysterious power' that you provide as an example and therefore cannot jump to the conclusion that it can't be defended against through conventional means. The destruction of the DC members does not prove this as the DC members could have simply have had their Force barriers broken, which is what would have happened as Vitiate is vastly superior to them.

 

And yes, I stand by my assertion that Sidious at the pinnacle of his power was stronger than all the DC members put together. Even if they had concentrated their lightning altogether at the same time and Sidious had not made any attempt to raise any barriers or anything he would have lived. It would probably have looked like this. I mean, Sidious can rip holes in the fabric of space itself with colossal storms of dark side energy (of which he can produce multiple at the same time) that has the power to destroy planets. He would have shrugged off their attacks just as Darth Nox shrugged off Darth Thanaton's most powerful attack and killed them all. The very fact that Vitiate managed to kill two DC's is proof of this.You may as well note how Nox manages to absorb all that energy from Thanaton without creating any active barriers at all, if that doesn't prove that powerful Force based attacks cannot be defended against simply through being more powerful than your opponent then I have no idea what does - really just replace Thanaton with Vitiate and Nox with Sidious and you have my argument in a nutshell.

 

This is what I'm arguing, so far Vitiate has displayed no abilities that can't be defended against using Force barrier - excluding his mental abilities, but given that Sidious himself is vastly capable in that region, vastly knowledgeable in the dark side of the Force in general, and vastly more powerful than anyone Vitiate has ever faced, it is not illogical to assume that Sidious could put up a more than adequate defense against such an attack. And even then I think Force barrier defends against mental attacks also, don't quote me on that.

 

Now I have no idea when Sidious was 'rag-dolled' about by anyone, so you'd have to enlighten me. I expect if that ever happened he was weakened first, or simply inferior. In fact I demand it as this is the only way it could work within the rules of the Star Wars universe. As for Sever Force, the combined powers of Luke and Leia surpass his, so naturally he would not be able to overcome them. If this was not the case he would never have been cut off from the dark side.

 

Now I see your reasoning concerning the Marek example, but regardless of whether Marek died because he gave himself up to the Force, Sidious and Vader still managed to survive a massive outburst of energy without actively raising any kind of shields, drawing a lightsaber or using tutanimis, just as many, many others have done in the past. They just absorbed it using their natural Force barriers, this is what Sidious would do it Vitiate tried to 'one-shot' him.

 

The same applies to the Yoda and Anakin examples, Anakin had no time to raise any active barriers, he could only rely on Force barrier. However this was found lacking and Anakin was incapacitated. Yoda too had no time to raise any barriers (I am not referring to when he caught his lightning), he was hit full on and blasted back in a similar manner. Though while temporarily stunned he got back up and started fighting. In both scenarios it was not a question of skill or knowledge with the Force but their passive ability to absorb Force-based attacks i.e their powerful level. Nothing more. Which in turn would be Sidious' saving face if Vitiate got the jump on Sidious in a similar way. I could go on to explain how Vitiate was powerful enough to overcome the Force barriers of the Jedi strike team, and if he struggle to defeat them in a single move, how could be possibly defeat Sidious in the same manner, he had plenty of time to prepare, and no Voices or guards to invest in but I think you get the point.

 

And as for your final point, why should I bar Force storm? It is an ability of his, and would have been more than capable of decimating the entire DC and then some. Heck he could have taken out the whole of Kaas City and possibly even the Emperor with it, he could have destroyed the entire gosh darn planet if he wanted to - and only after minutes, if not seconds of preparation. How's that for 'combative abilities'. Sidious can one-shot planets, can Vitiate do that? Without that aid of 8,000 Sith Lords? I didn't think he could. Power > everything. Period.

 

There is no power in current existence that cannot be defended against in any way, shape or form. No power at all, not one, nada. Try not to take Kreia's words to literally. She was merely saying that Force drain cannot be defended against through conventional means i.e Force barrier. But that doesn't mean there is no defense against it at all, whatsoever. I'd note here that Nihilus is only virtually unstoppable because he is so powerful, I doubt he'd be able to so effectively drain the power of Luke, Sidious or Vitiate.

 

Now of course you could draw attention to the ritual on Nathema, which indicates Vitiate was proficient in Force drain. But as I have iterated many times over, Force drain can be defended against simply by being more powerful than your opponent, endured. So even if Vitiate bypassed Sidious' Force barriers using Force drain he simply would not possess the strength to drain the vast, vast pools of dark side energy Sidious has to draw on. Just imagine a black hole stuffed with so much food it can't swallow.

 

I don't think I really have much else to say, this is my argument, take it or leave it.

Edited June 19, 2013 by Beniboybling

[S_W_LeGenD]

Interesting read, and OP i agree with you. I did not find any information stating that Sidious was the most powerful Sith Lord ever. I couldn't statements of George himself either. It's pretty obvious that Vitiate is far more powerful than Sidious, however, Prime Sidious was probably capable of fighting Vitiate equally. By the way, these statements that by people, saying "OOOHHHH you are no Star wars fan" IS DAMN ********!!! Retcon happens, and it happened. Nobody i asked was able to give me information about Sidious being the most powerful. And for all people who are that stupid, George Lucas has actually stated, the movies were his vision and he accepts additions in the Expanded Universe. Some people will probably flame me but before you cannot show me a 100% proof that Sidious was stated as the most powerful Sith Lord ever, AFTER the release of SW:TOR, than pls **** and ****.

Thank you

 

Firstly- You did a great job finding and comparing facts,friend!

Secondly- i'm fully at your side.

Darh Vitiate is the most powerful Sith ever lived.Sidious is just film-puppet,made for representing THE GREATEST EVIL IN THE GALAXY ,cause the Saga really was needed in Powerful Bad Guy.

I dont know was it mentioned or not, but Hero of Tython just destroyed The Voice of Emperor,not himself.you can learn about this in Sith Warrior Storyline and some fan-sites. Yep,i really didnt read all of 10pages of disputes, but im curious what happened with The Emperor after that? No explanation or something? He just gone for 3000 years?Or did he realy die sometime?

Thank you

 

This is what GL stated

If Anakin had remained a Jedi, he would have eventually become the most powerful Jedi of all time. However, this did not happen since Anakin fell to the dark side during Revenge of the Sith. Since Luke is the son of Anakin who is the chosen one, it really makes sense for Luke to become the greatest Jedi Knight in existence. The will of the Force chose Luke to be the best.

http://www.supershadow.com/george_lucas/interview/32.html

Supershadow is not reliable source: rather fraudulent.

 

"No matter what Jedi and Sith are to come, or have been, none of them ever matched up to Luke Skywalker."

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Luke_Skywalker

I am not sure if you are citing the correct source here but the statement you mentioned isn't there. Maybe I didn't searched well but I checked all pages and used the search option for matching words.

 

He is the greatest Jedi in existence.

Since he outclassed the greatest Sith and mastered both the dark side and the light side

He is the greatest Sith/Jedi Ever. I Agree.

Star Wars is now apparently more open to creative liberties then it was before. Also, it is unlikely that he is more powerful then individuals such as Tenebrae and Sidious because he didn't reach the "necessary condition" to make him so. He could be the most powerful mortal individual yet. To give you a hint, characters have been introduced which are canonically more powerful then him; one such example is Abeloth.

 

However, in the case i was mentioning im talking about Greatest Force user

While Jedi's are in fact force users jedis are more than that.

 

An Analogy

While Messi is considered by many to be the greatest football player ever. There are other football players better at taking free kicks.

Messi = Luke

Taking a free kick is the force..

Interesting.

 

On vitate.

The Sith Emperor has mastered the dark side's power to become the most dominating Force-user the galaxy has ever seen. (SWTOR: Codex Entry)

 

Luke was never able to become a god, surpassing time and space.

The emperor didnt became one because he was foiled.

HOWEVER

It is stated that he would have become a god and everything was in place to make him a god.

 

No matter how he did it. If you can use the force to become a god, youre the strongest force wielder ever.

Gods>people that can die. (which is why immortal is used to often in SW lore: Immortal means unable to die or be killed. Immortal: One not subject to death. yet all these immortals can die...)

Luke is mortal so their is a limit to what he can do alone unless he breaks his biological barriers.

 

Their are different phases/forms of immortality in the mythos, as per my understanding. Lowest form is Force Ghost which is rather harmless but Force Ghosts of Sith are known to possess properties to influence materialistic objects and mortal life forms. Higher form is the one which Tenebrae and Sidious accomplished; this form permitted these Sith Lords to wield incredible power and perform feats that mortals cannot. Highest form is the one in which an individual gains invincibility or omnipotence; Tenebrae is the only known Sith Lord yet who had acquired the necessary knowledge and talent to reach this phase/form but he was stopped.

 

Because of semantics this is open to debate.

Could you be more condesending plis?

For me? If not then ignore this question.

 

---

 

One of my friends have a message about Star Wars canon:

 

"When it says ' Elements originating with Lucas in the movie novelizations, reference books, and other sources are also G-canon, though anything created by the authors of those sources is C-canon' it specifically means that anything created by Lucas is G-canon, not that that everything about them in a sourcebook is G-canon. Sidious himself is G-canon, as is anything that Lucas himself actually ascribed to him. But the statement that he's the most powerful Sith ever comes solely from the author and as such is C-canon."

 

B/W This guy is one of the most talented debaters I have yet come across. I hope he joins us here someday.

Edited June 19, 2013 by S_W_LeGenD

[Aurbere]

It's likely that, if the two came to blows, Sidious could simply send a Force Storm to Dromund Kaas from the safety of Byss and kill the false one that way.

[Beniboybling]

It's likely that, if the two came to blows, Sidious could simply send a Force Storm to Dromund Kaas from the safety of Byss and kill the false one that way.

Lol, the false one.

 

But its true. I don't know how Vitiate could counter that without sufficient time to prepare.

[S_W_LeGenD]

It's likely that, if the two came to blows, Sidious could simply send a Force Storm to Dromund Kaas from the safety of Byss and kill the false one that way.

False one?

 

Well, this can be the case if Sidious have element of surprise. If Tenebrae knows in advance that he might orchestrate some kind of Sith sorcery which may offer protection. Also, in a worst case scenario, Tenebrae will still survive in essence form (because Force Storm does not destroys essence) and would look for a suitable host to possess, recuperate and then strike back someday. So these two competing against each other is a very exhausting scenario since they are both in the "same condition."

Edited June 19, 2013 by S_W_LeGenD

[Aurbere]

False one?

 

Well, this can be the case if Sidious have element of surprise. If Tenebrae knows in advance that he might orchestrate some kind of Sith sorcery which may offer protection. Also, in a worst case scenario, Tenebrae will still survive in essence form (because Force Storm does not destroys essence) and would look for a suitable host to possess, recuperate and then strike back someday. So these two competing against each other is a very exhausting scenario since they are both in the "same condition."

 

Stalemate, then? Since neither can effectively permanently kill the other?

[S_W_LeGenD]

Stalemate, then? Since neither can effectively permanently kill the other?

Indeed...

 

Most likely they will form a truce, until or unless Tenebrae can accomplish his master plan.

Edited June 19, 2013 by S_W_LeGenD

[Beniboybling]

One of my friends have a message about Star Wars canon:

 

"When it says ' Elements originating with Lucas in the movie novelizations, reference books, and other sources are also G-canon, though anything created by the authors of those sources is C-canon' it specifically means that anything created by Lucas is G-canon, not that that everything about them in a sourcebook is G-canon. Sidious himself is G-canon, as is anything that Lucas himself actually ascribed to him. But the statement that he's the most powerful Sith ever comes solely from the author and as such is C-canon."

 

B/W This guy is one of the most talented debaters I have yet come across. I hope he joins us here someday.

I see what he is saying here, basically everything with elements originating from the movies is G-Canon accept novels, comics, games etc. i.e. stories. However he's mistaken on the last part, as the majority of statements that refer to Sidious as the most powerful Sith Lord in galactic history originates from source books such as the The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia - a G-Canon sourcebook

[S_W_LeGenD]

I see what he is saying here, basically everything with elements originating from the movies is G-Canon accept novels, comics, games etc. i.e. stories. However he's mistaken on the last part, as the majority of statements that refer to Sidious as the most powerful Sith Lord in galactic history originates from source books such as the The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia - a G-Canon sourcebook

SWTCE is also c-canon source because of its authors: http://www.amazon.com/The-Complete-Star-Wars-Encyclopedia/dp/0345477634

 

Pablo is among those authors and he chose to not declare any Sith Lord most powerful in his latest (real world source) book: SWTERC. At least, this particular author is being careful lately.

 

EDIT: This is the one: The Essential Reader's Companion.

Edited June 19, 2013 by S_W_LeGenD

[Beniboybling]

SWTCE is also c-canon source because of its authors: http://www.amazon.com/The-Complete-Star-Wars-Encyclopedia/dp/0345477634

 

Pablo is among those authors and he chose to not declare any Sith Lord most powerful in his latest (real world source) book: SWTERC. At least, this particular author is being careful lately.

Statements made by sourcebooks in regards to George Lucas creations e.g Darth Sidious are G-Canon, regardless of their authors, else nothing accept the movies and statements made by George Lucas would be G-Canon (as he has produced nothing else) which in turn renders this statement arbitrary: "Elements originating with Lucas in the movie novelizations, reference books, and other sources are also G-canon"

 

If Pablo Hidago had gone and written a novel about Sidious or any elements originating from a Lucas creation then that would be classed as C-Canon.

 

EDIT: I see what your friend is saying now and I would disagree for the reasons above. If this were the case when why bother with the second part? He's effectively saying that only that which George Lucas has ascribed to his characters is G-Canon, which is the equivalent to a G-Canon statement. Making the latter part totally pointless.

 

And how do we know that Lucas did not inform Hidago that Sidious is top-dog? We don't have a transcript of everything he has ever said but as an official source book dealing with a George Lucas creation we must assume it has been verified by Lucas himself.

Edited June 19, 2013 by Beniboybling

[S_W_LeGenD]

Statements made by sourcebooks in regards to George Lucas creations e.g Darth Sidious are G-Canon, regardless of their authors, else nothing accept the movies and statements made by George Lucas would be G-Canon (as he has produced nothing else) which in turn renders this statement arbitrary: "Elements originating with Lucas in the movie novelizations, reference books, and other sources are also G-canon"

 

If Pablo Hidago had gone and written a novel about Sidious or any elements originating from a Lucas creation then that would be classed as C-Canon.

The key word is "with Lucas" which would (presumably) make him one of the authors of the sourcebook in which he contributed his point of view and/or ideas. Lucas does not dictates his opinions regarding "most powerful" to any of his peers (in case of EU materials); he have left this to his peers to decide. If his peers choose to assign this accolade to Sidious then GL will not stop them because it is not his concern anyways. So essentially the characteristics which other authors (excluding GL) assign to G-canon characters are C-canon. For example: Sidious dies during the Battle of Endor in G-canon but he comes back as an immortal entity like individual in C-canon.

 

EDIT: I learned from somewhere that Marka Ragnos have also earned the accolade of most powerful Sith Lord in a C-canon source (an outdated one) and GL reviewed it but he didn't reject or dismiss this accolade but pointed out some changes that in his idea should be during this timeline; the source had to be revised as per his views then. I have not personally validated this myself yet.

 

EDIT: I see what your friend is saying now and I would disagree for the reasons above. If this were the case when why bother with the second part? He's effectively saying that only that which George Lucas has ascribed to his characters is G-Canon, which is the equivalent to a G-Canon statement. Making the latter part totally pointless.

 

And how do we know that Lucas did not inform Hidago that Sidious is top-dog? We don't have a transcript of everything he has ever said but as an official source book dealing with a George Lucas creation we must assume it has been verified by Lucas himself.

Well, Lucas can himself explicitly say so but he never does and never will perhaps.

 

Also, he is no longer the boss so Disney Administration can rule out his declaration or choose to respect it; it up to this Administration now.

Edited June 19, 2013 by S_W_LeGenD