Most powerful Sith Lord ever (essential read)

[Beniboybling]

Usually Rayla would correct us on Shan

 

Perhaps the Dread Masters aren't as effective as they seem. Or maybe Kaedan and some Republic soldiers are better than they seem.

Well in a recent Operation just one of the Dread Masters was a the final boss. Now I'm not sure how operations fit into the grand scheme of things but the fact remains that one Dread Master can pose a significant threat.

[Wolfninjajedi]

Usually Rayla would correct us on Shan

 

Perhaps the Dread Masters aren't as effective as they seem. Or maybe Kaedan and some Republic soldiers are better than they seem.

 

I really doubt some Republic guys are superior to Force Wielders, Kaedan....I guess perhaps says on his bio he was a living weapon of The Force and able to resist the Dread Masters power. Though I am gonna call complete BS, because he hasn't shown much of anything aside from that.

[S_W_LeGenD]

Sidious is the most powerful Sithlord in History for many reasons , this does not make Vitate weak by anymeans.

Even if this is popular opinion, it does not takes away from Tenebrae being a TOP-TIER material at minimum as per canon.

 

Sidious had intervention where is Vitate did not .

Sidious at a very young age like Vitate came into his power by himself .

You are wrong here; Sidious came in to power much later; during the events of Phantom Menace.

 

He killed his parents at a childs age and if it was not for Darth Plagius , who knows what Sidious would have done.

Where is Vitate did not have that till later in his life.

Big deal? Tenebrae killed his parents at the age of 6. And he seized control of an entire world at the age of 13 with his personal powers. Unparalleled showing in the whole mythos at this age level.

 

Sidious was no limited to Force Powers either , he was a very Skilled Lightsaber Duelest who did stand toe to toe with Mace and Yoda . Where Vitate has no skill we can see in Lightsaber Combat and almost totally relies on his Force Powers

Tenebrae and Sidious grew up in very different circumstances and therefore the difference in their mindset regarding approach to combat. Read the essay that I have posted in this thread to get valuable insight (My 2nd post in this thread in page 1).

 

Sidious put himself in a spot that he himself could not see the events of his actions . He died early in his Empire but while he was in control , it was the most order that the Galaxy ever seen .

Well, the Republic had expanded a lot by the time Sidious came in to existence.

 

Vitate did have more issues that Sidious , but most Sithlords feared Vitate so he rarely if ever was challenged . Malgus being the only one who really believed the Emperor grown weak.

Malgus wasn't aware of the ground realities; he was disappointed by the decision of Sith Emperor to agree to peace treaty with the Republic after he helped the Empire secure Coruscant and lay waste to the Jedi Temple in it. What he didn't knew is that Revan compelled Sith Emperor to sign the peace treaty to end the war and this gave the Republic the opportunity to regain its power and be in the position to challenge the Sith Empire again in the future.

 

As far as Sith Emperor's own Empire is concerned, he was feared within it because of his immense power. Those who attempted to kill him, ended up dead or worse.

 

Sidious is likely the only thing in G-Canon that can be seen as a very Solid Fact .

Of-course, he is a G-Canon creation.

 

In lore Sidious had all the knowledge of past Sithlords to learn from , this would give him a upper hand .

This is disputable. Several events took place in history prior to arrival of Sidious during which impressive ancient Sith records have been destroyed. As per existing information, Sidious knows a lot less about Tenebrae; possible reason is that Tenebrae was not on the front-line. Sidious knows a good deal about Malgus though.

 

Sithlords felt passing down knowledge was a good thing which is utterly weird when you think of how selfish they are with Power .

Sidious being the only Sithlord to ever live that kept almost all his knowledge a secret and probably died with a bulk of it .

See above.

 

I will agree with you , to the point and likely far after Vitate died , he was likely the most powerful Sithlord .

Well... good...

 

Nice to see that we have some logically thinking people around. Nice thread :-)

Thanks.

 

What I find funny is you are saying Vitate is the most powerful ever .............that would make him more powerful than Darth Revan ............and yet you are a Revan Fanboy for doing so...................strange thinking people have when filled with hate.............

Any Mention of Revan sends certain people into a Frenzy ................. I can just picture Wolverine going into blind Rage Mode saying """"RAWWWWRRRRRRRRRRRRR REAVANNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN"""" as he shreds everything in sight !

 

 

 

 

 

 

EDIT: Good thing we cannot post pics , I have a perfect Picture of Raging out that would fit the mindset of those who hate Revan ...........................I even have a Picture of a obesed fat man dressed like Revan that would make a good Revan Fanboi pic ! Too funny:D

Bro, this thread is not about Revan. He is included in it for information purposes.

 

Also, I am a fan of several characters including Revan. And I respect canon information.

 

The argument will be that Vitiate's story needs expanding. While true, we can't just claim him to be able to do something that he has shown no capability of doing (or at least to such a scale).

He packed lot of talent and power. He acquired the necessary condition which granted him endless possibilities in practicing dark arts.

 

Ever, history? I see them as the same thing, because the books are written in such a context that 'history' only means up until the point that this book's context is i.e. the Old Republic era. But yes this is what I'm saying, there is a degree of flexibility because I could stick a character in-between Vitiate and Sidious and say he's more powerful than Vitiate, and stick a character after Sidious and say he's more powerful than both of them.

The word "ever" leaves room for creative liberties. Otherwise, authors would have just used the word "history" and moved on.

 

That said... this quote is rather interesting:

 

"The ritual lasted ten days. Lord Vitiate orchestrated the sorcery and the planet Mediraas was consumed by the largest dark side nexus the galaxy would ever see."

 

'Would ever' would imply now and into the future AKA including Sidious. However at the same time I'm not sure when they say 'dark side nexus' they are referring to Vitiate alone or Vitiate + 8,000 Sith Lords.

 

Else we have a conflict in canon. Hmm.

 

Oh and well done for this, unfortunately those who raise points of this kind usually do so in a subjective and immature manner, which doesn't do them any favours because it means canonical statements such as these have been overlooked.

Thanks

 

On the other hand if I were to make a subjective choice, I'd choose Sidious. Firstly I think he should be the most powerful because, well, he's Emperor Palpatine. The pinnacle of the Rule of Two, the villain of all villains, the only Sith to succeed in conquering the galaxy and destroying the Jedi.

 

Also, his feats are that much more impressive. Especially Force storm which is effectively the most powerful dark side power in existence, something Vitiate could not perform. (Or at least we assume as he has not done it and would have come in handy for his plan to committ galaxy wide genocide.)

Tenebrae have better showings in combat. He can logically defeat any opponent in combat, if fully prepared.

 

Also, Tenebrae could accomplish lot more then Sidious with his talent in Sith Sorcery then Sidious ever could with his conventional methods.

 

I understand the value of Sidious being an original but this doesn't necessarily makes him the ultimate villain or bad@ss in the mythos. Tenebrae appears to be more bad@ss as per his ambitions.

Edited June 17, 2013 by S_W_LeGenD

[mefit]

I really doubt some Republic guys are superior to Force Wielders, Kaedan....I guess perhaps says on his bio he was a living weapon of The Force and able to resist the Dread Masters power. Though I am gonna call complete BS, because he hasn't shown much of anything aside from that.

 

Lore is lore , until they write more into it , its still canon .

 

This is what separates me from you , Aurbere and the others. Maybe because I am a man of Faith , I do not need to "be shown" something that would be attested by hundreds , thousands , millions or billions of people .

If that many people are Proof of a action or seen something to be able to give a title like" Living Weapon of the Force" I am going to agree till I see "Otherwise" .

 

Saddly if you like it or not we are a standing to have to agree till something else points to otherwise.

[Wolfninjajedi]

Lore is lore , until they write more into it , its still canon .

 

This is what separates me from you , Aurbere and the others. Maybe because I am a man of Faith , I do not need to "be shown" something that would be attested by hundreds , thousands , millions or billions of people .

If that many people are Proof of a action or seen something to be able to give a title like" Living Weapon of the Force" I am going to agree till I see "Otherwise" .

 

Saddly if you like it or not we are a standing to have to agree till something else points to otherwise.

 

No i'll accept it, but I just find it as more of a plot thing to just capture the Dread Masters when the guy hasn't really done anything aside from that to prove that he is a living weapon of The Force.

Edited June 17, 2013 by Wolfninjajedi

[Aurbere]

Well in a recent Operation just one of the Dread Masters was a the final boss. Now I'm not sure how operations fit into the grand scheme of things but the fact remains that one Dread Master can pose a significant threat.

 

Well, ask yourself, is there two or four of each class? I don't think so. So perhaps the events themselves are canon, but the number of people (8-16) is not. In my opinion, of course.

[mefit]

Doug Bradley the voice for Vitate and the actor who played Pin Head ..............does make Vitate a lot cooler .

Everytime I revisit the final Fight JK storyline , I can almost here " I will tear your Soul Apart !"

Edited June 17, 2013 by mefit

[Aurbere]

He packed lot of talent and power. He acquired the necessary condition which granted him endless possibilities in practicing dark arts.

 

And yet we can't assume that Vitiate can do things simply because of that. That's not how canon works. If this were the case, I could say that Yoda did things vastly more impressive than Luke simply because he's had a mostly unexplored 900 years to live and study the Force.

 

"Do not assume anything, Obi-Wan!"

[S_W_LeGenD]

Defeating Master Yoda? Defeating Luke Skywalker? Killing three Jedi masters in seconds?

1. One-shotting an entire Dark Council? (You do realize that only the strongest Sith Lords become members of the Dark Council?)

 

2. Easily overpowering a Jedi Strike Team of the strongest and most resolute Jedi of the Order? (In the big picture, these Jedi would be among the strongest at minimum.)

 

3. Being able to handle the trio of Revan, Meetra and Scourge simultaneously and still win. (All of these are heavy-weights in the mythos)

 

Of course Vitiate has the whole JK Act 2 thing going for him, but those guys weren't on the same level as Yoda or Luke Skywalker.

Sill they were FOUR in number and among the strongest and most resolute. And Sith Emperor beat them EASILY.

 

And yet we can't assume that Vitiate can do things simply because of that. That's not how canon works. If this were the case, I could say that Yoda did things vastly more impressive than Luke simply because he's had a mostly unexplored 900 years to live and study the Force.

 

"Do not assume anything, Obi-Wan!"

I understand this logic but difference is that Tenebrae acquired the "necessary condition" which made possibilities for him endless. After all, his ultimate plan was to transform himself in to a godlike omnipotent entity and he possessed the necessary knowledge to make this possible. This is far beyond the capability of any Sith Lord.

Edited June 17, 2013 by S_W_LeGenD

[mefit]

Fogged the minds of those who are blocked to new ideas , to those who maintain a straight line ! Continue to stand stale in the wake of new possibilities to maintain order .

[mefit]

After all, his ultimate plan was to transform himself in to a godlike omnipotent entity and he possessed the necessary knowledge to make this possible. This is far beyond the capability of any Sith Lord.

Here I thought he wanted to destroy everything till there was nothing but a Void.......I mean Godlike is a metaphor you need something to believe you are but with nothing left , how is this possible ?

[S_W_LeGenD]

Here I thought he wanted to destroy everything till there was nothing but a Void.......I mean Godlike is a metaphor you need something to believe you are but with nothing left , how is this possible ?

These will answer your question:

 

 

Lord Scourge's reveals the Emperor's true goal for the war: to complete a Sith ritual that will grant him unlimited power and immortality by eradicating all life in the galaxy. (SWTORE, Page 93)

 

 

 

Aided by his powerful, secretive, and far-reaching power base, the Emperor pulls strings across the galaxy to carry out his master stroke - the details of which only the Emperor knows. Should he succeed in his plans, the Emperor will conquer death itself and become the most powerful being in all of galactic history. (SWTORE, Page 161)

 

Edited June 17, 2013 by S_W_LeGenD

[Beniboybling]

Tenebrae have better showings in combat. He can logically defeat any opponent in combat, if fully prepared.

 

Also, Tenebrae could accomplish lot more then Sidious with his talent in Sith Sorcery then Sidious ever could with his conventional methods.

See this is just it, he needs preparation. Its fairly obvious that Vitiate's talents lie in Sith magic, and while he is perfectly capable concerning other fields of the dark side he can only unlock his full potential through ritual.

 

This gives Sidious an advantage because in a pitched battle, Sidious can very much pull abilities out of the bag. Sure Vitiate could call down lightining storms etc. But Sidious would be able to resist. In order for Vitiate to have a chance of defeating Sidious he would have to use his most potent rituals, which would require time.

 

EDIT: His confrontation with Revan, Meetra and Scourge is pretty indicative of this. While he did defeat him, it was fairly obvious he was phased. Sidious on the other hand, because of his skill set, would have no such problems.

Edited June 17, 2013 by Beniboybling

[Aurbere]

1. One-shotting an entire Dark Council? (You do realize that only the strongest Sith Lords become members of the Dark Council?)

 

Of course I realize that the Dark Council are all powerful Sith. Tell me, what were the circumstances around that. Give me the details.

 

2. Easily overpowering a Jedi Strike Team of the strongest and most resolute Jedi of the Order? (In the big picture, these Jedi would be among the strongest at minimum.)

 

To be honest, only the Hero of Tython and Tol Braga really impress me out of that bunch. Though Warren Sedoru had an awesome voice.

 

3. Being able to handle the trio of Revan, Meetra and Scourge simultaneously and still win. (All of these are heavy-weights in the mythos)

 

I don't think Scourge is a heavyweight. He is impressive, but Surik and Revan were the bigger fish there.

 

Sill they were FOUR in number and among the strongest and most resolute. And Sith Emperor beat them EASILY.

 

I wouldn't say easily. I mean, the Hero resisted at first, but eventually fell.

 

I understand this logic but difference is that Tenebrae acquired the "necessary condition" which made possibilities for him endless. After all, his ultimate plan was to transform himself in to a godlike omnipotent entity and he possessed the necessary knowledge to make this possible.

 

Yes, I understand. But we can't just make leaps of logic based on that. However, we shouldn't be surprised if Vitiate does something grandiose, but as it stands, we shouldn't say he can. It's complicated. We know Vitiate is very powerful, but we can't make rash claims based on this. Know what I mean?

 

Listen, I'm not saying Vitiate is weaksauce or anything, but he certainly isn't the most powerful Sith Lord. I would counter your above points with my own, but I feel that I've done enough of that in previous threads. So I'm just throwing you an opinionated bone (if such a thing exists).

[S_W_LeGenD]

Of course I realize that the Dark Council are all powerful Sith. Tell me, what were the circumstances around that. Give me the details.

Information already provided in my first post in this thread.

 

However, for your convenience:

 

 

During a violent tempest, Darth Lokess called a secret meeting of her eleven fellow Dark Council members. Under the cover of night, the Dark Council met and heard Darth Lokess describe a brilliant and daring plan to overthrow the Sith Emperor, end his relentless exile, and lead the Empire back to war against the Republic. An army of Sith under the command of Darth Lokess were stationed outside the meeting, ready to slay any Dark Council member who refused. But they all agreed to depose the Emperor.

 

It remains a mystery how the Emperor learned of his council's treachery. He allowed their plan to play out, but when they gathered to confront the Emperor, his punishment was swift and devastating. Eleven members of the Dark Council died in a sudden flash on the steps of the Citadel. The last member Darth Lokess, disappeared forever, though for some centuries some claimed her screams could be heard from the bowels of the Citadel.

 

A new council was immediately appointed to replace the traitors. The Emperor had made his point: his will was absolute, and none would oppose him. And though this was not the last time the council would defy the Emperor, his lesson would humble the Empire and its Sith leaders for centuries to come. (SWTORE, Page 156)

 

 

To be honest, only the Hero of Tython and Tol Braga really impress me out of that bunch. Though Warren Sedoru had an awesome voice.

Well, all of those Jedi are among the strongest as per canon. Though all of them not much explored yet. HoT himself is incredibly powerful.

 

I don't think Scourge is a heavyweight. He is impressive, but Surik and Revan were the bigger fish there.

Agreed. However, Scourge is very impressive swordsman at least.

 

I wouldn't say easily. I mean, the Hero resisted at first, but eventually fell.

Canon description of the same event:

 

 

The plan to invade the Emperor's fortress succeeds beyond Master Braga's greatest ambitions. However, the Jedi find more than they bargained for when they finally confront the Sith leader in his lair. The Emperor is more than a man - he is the living embodiment of the dark side. Armed with incalculable powers of corruption, the Emperor easily defeats the Knight, Master Braga, and their fellow Jedi, twisting them all to the dark side. (SWTORE, Page 92)

 

 

Yes, I understand. But we can't just make leaps of logic based on that. However, we shouldn't be surprised if Vitiate does something grandiose, but as it stands, we shouldn't say he can. It's complicated. We know Vitiate is very powerful, but we can't make rash claims based on this. Know what I mean?

Read my essay to understand my point. Of-course, same assumption cannot be made about others who had not acquired the "necessary condition."

 

Listen, I'm not saying Vitiate is weaksauce or anything, but he certainly isn't the most powerful Sith Lord. I would counter your above points with my own, but I feel that I've done enough of that in previous threads. So I'm just throwing you an opinionated bone (if such a thing exists).

My contention is not who is the most powerful Sith Lord; power have ambiguous connotations. My contention is that Tenebrae is a TOP-TIER Sith Lord, in the same league as Sidious.

 

In combat, he can take on anybody and win, if fully prepared.

Edited June 17, 2013 by S_W_LeGenD

[S_W_LeGenD]

See this is just it, he needs preparation. Its fairly obvious that Vitiate's talents lie in Sith magic, and while he is perfectly capable concerning other fields of the dark side he can only unlock his full potential through ritual.

By prepared, I mean that he is absolutely ready for combat and has not invested his powers anywhere.

 

 

The pain, energy, and suffering of every living entity on the planet fueled his power and would prolong his life for centuries. (SWTORE, Page 161)

 

 

Tenebrae exceeded his biological limitations with aid of his talent in Sith Sorcery; even naturally, he was gifted with very high midi-chlorian count (supremely strong in the dark side of the Force).

 

He accomplished following condition:

 

1. Gigantic supply of energy reserves; something not possible biologically.

 

2. He would no longer deteriorate biologically for his continuous involvement in dark side practices for long long period. Even powerful Sith Lords can deteriorate significantly under a span of several decades, if they heavily delve in to dark arts, and become a mere shadow of their former selves.

 

3. His capacity as a practitioner of the Force exceeded what would have been possible with midi-chlorian count; capability to one-shot an entire Dark Council in single blow is proof of this.

 

4. On the basis of all of the above, possibilities were endless for him to delve in to any kind of dark arts and gain greater command accordingly.

 

This gives Sidious an advantage because in a pitched battle, Sidious can very much pull abilities out of the bag. Sure Vitiate could call down lightining storms etc. But Sidious would be able to resist. In order for Vitiate to have a chance of defeating Sidious he would have to use his most potent rituals, which would require time.

Sidious is not very good at defending himself actually; he honed much of his talents to augment his offensive capabilities. Of-course, Sidious at his finest and under ideal setting have a chance at taking down Tenebrae in single combat. However, Tenebrae can beat him in almost any setting, if fully prepared.

 

EDIT: His confrontation with Revan, Meetra and Scourge is pretty indicative of this. While he did defeat him, it was fairly obvious he was phased. Sidious on the other hand, because of his skill set, would have no such problems.

Revan was totally outclassed; Tenebrae was toying with him until he had enough and decided to end the game. Thanks to T3-M4, Revan was saved and Tenebrae changed his mind. Scourge was having visions of this fight ending in failure and his death. So he decided to cope-out.

 

Let us not kid ourselves; Revan and Meetra are among the heavy-weights of the mythos with considerable experience of dealing with Sith; both of them are among the most accomplished Jedi in the whole mythos. These two put together would be almost unstoppable.

Edited June 17, 2013 by S_W_LeGenD

[Aurbere]

Information already provided in my first post in this thread.

 

However, for your convenience:

 

 

During a violent tempest, Darth Lokess called a secret meeting of her eleven fellow Dark Council members. Under the cover of night, the Dark Council met and heard Darth Lokess describe a brilliant and daring plan to overthrow the Sith Emperor, end his relentless exile, and lead the Empire back to war against the Republic. An army of Sith under the command of Darth Lokess were stationed outside the meeting, ready to slay any Dark Council member who refused. But they all agreed to depose the Emperor.

 

It remains a mystery how the Emperor learned of his council's treachery. He allowed their plan to play out, but when they gathered to confront the Emperor, his punishment was swift and devastating. Eleven members of the Dark Council died in a sudden flash on the steps of the Citadel. The last member Darth Lokess, disappeared forever, though for some centuries some claimed her screams could be heard from the bowels of the Citadel.

 

A new council was immediately appointed to replace the traitors. The Emperor had made his point: his will was absolute, and none would oppose him. And though this was not the last time the council would defy the Emperor, his lesson would humble the Empire and its Sith leaders for centuries to come. (SWTORE, Page 156)

 

Ah, I see. Well it doesn't say that a battle takes place, or that they even confronted the Emperor. So he either sniped them, or used a ritual. Ritual seems most likely since he knew they were coming and had time to prepare.

 

Well, all of those Jedi are among the strongest as per canon. Though all of them not much explored yet. HoT himself is incredibly powerful.

 

Well, I don't think Sedoru was. He says that he's not a battlefield warrior.

 

Agreed. However, Scourge is very impressive swordsman at least.

 

Well, swordsmanship won't do you much good against a powerhouse like the Sith Emperor, who doesn't even need a lightsaber.

 

Canon description of the same event:

 

 

The plan to invade the Emperor's fortress succeeds beyond Master Braga's greatest ambitions. However, the Jedi find more than they bargained for when they finally confront the Sith leader in his lair. The Emperor is more than a man - he is the living embodiment of the dark side. Armed with incalculable powers of corruption, the Emperor easily defeats the Knight, Master Braga, and their fellow Jedi, twisting them all to the dark side. (SWTORE, Page 92)

 

I need to get my own copy of the SWTORE. Thanks.

 

Read my essay to understand my point. Of-course, same assumption cannot be made about others who had not acquired the "necessary condition."

 

 

My contention is not who is the most powerful Sith Lord; power have ambiguous connotations. My contention is that Tenebrae is a TOP-TIER Sith Lord, in the same league as Sidious.

 

In combat, he can take on anybody and win, if fully prepared.

 

I don't think anyone has said that Vitiate isn't a top-tier Sith Lord. However, I don't think he could defeat Sidious without the use of a ritual. In a straight up fight, Sidious has the power to undermine him.

[S_W_LeGenD]

It didn't change my opinion either, I always thought him more powerful than those individuals.

 

I suppose he gets No. 4...

Tenebrae along with Sidious should be logically No. 1. These individuals are more powerful then any Jedi barring few entities.

 

I'm confused. Darth Malgus, Satele Shan, Exar Kun, Revan, Meetra, Ulic, Thon, the Hero of Tython, Marka Ragnos, Naga Sadow, Nomi Sunrider, the Dread Masters (I could go on) are piss ants? The Old Republic era is host to some of the most powerful Force users in galactic history, reaching levels of power not seen until the prequel era.

Tenebrae is more powerful then all of them.

 

Problem is the down play of the skill he has done .............. I mean what Vitate did to that planet as a child is impressive . Does not make him more powerful than Sidious but to not give it respect is just asking for a war of no meaning . As all other threads become when people start ignoring certain canons and calling them little or nothing.

 

Vader had the Ability to be the most powerful ever and yet he did not do this , does this make Vader less , certainly not .

Vader killed many powerful Jedi , Vitate was so powerful no one wanted to challenge him and those who did died . Well other than Malgus who was also well feared in the Empire.

 

You might not have to like or agree with it but if you cannot allow one canon to hold to make a point than the debate is pointless.

My best friend for 24 years is a Comic DC and Marvel Canon freak and hates everything Movie wise around those universes .

Told me that the "Man of Steel" sucked .

Well I thought it was good and it was nice to see a change . I cannot wait to see what they do with Lex or Doomsday . (If my theory holds out the third Superman movie in this series will have Doomsday !)

Well said...

 

Again this is where the Lucas following differs from others .

 

What some see as impressive and others do not out of spite ...........well its silly.

 

Exar Kun out of all those names is a well respected Star Wars EU villain ............. but according to current Canon Vitate would be more powerful than him on every Level .

Again this is not saying Vitate is more powerful than Sidious before someone mistakens what I am saying and or puts words into my mouth .

 

If people cannot respect all of Canon but only bits and pieces when they like it , then the debate is pointless !

Well said again...

 

I would disagree here, Vitiate doesn't seem that skilled with a lightsaber. He was defeated by the Hero of Tython in lightsaber combat and against Revan didn't even seem to possess one. He's more of scholar, he draws his power from rituals and Sith magic and while this does not make him at all weak, such abilities are not very useful in a pitched battle.

 

Sidious on the other hand is a master of all seven lightsaber forms and has gone up against the best in his time. I think this constitute better combat abilities.

Tenebrae have history of beating master swordsmen in single combat; having martial talent is an asset but up against someone as powerful as Tenebrae, their is no guarantee that the fight will end in victory.

 

It is likely by the Emperor as they are no fan of his .

 

They are also more proof that the Vitate Empire is falling apart . As their release and Malgus separating show Vitate is losing control over his Empire.

Sidious held a tight Grip over his till almost the point of death.

Again for someone so Evil , Sidious Empire was the most order ever in the history of the Galaxy .

Tenebrae lost control of his Empire because of the setback he suffered at the hands of HoT and Bersen'thor along with Scourge's betrayal. The Force is no longer with him.

 

Lore is lore , until they write more into it , its still canon .

 

This is what separates me from you , Aurbere and the others. Maybe because I am a man of Faith , I do not need to "be shown" something that would be attested by hundreds , thousands , millions or billions of people .

If that many people are Proof of a action or seen something to be able to give a title like" Living Weapon of the Force" I am going to agree till I see "Otherwise" .

 

Saddly if you like it or not we are a standing to have to agree till something else points to otherwise.

Well said...

 

No i'll accept it, but I just find it as more of a plot thing to just capture the Dread Masters when the guy hasn't really done anything aside from that to prove that he is a living weapon of The Force.

Not every character is richly explored in the mythos. Their is too much content already and expanding...

 

The Jedi Master in question would be extraordinarily powerful. Their is no rule that only Luke and Yoda can be exceptional Jedi.

Edited June 17, 2013 by S_W_LeGenD

[Wolfninjajedi]

Ah, I see. Well it doesn't say that a battle takes place, or that they even confronted the Emperor. So he either sniped them, or used a ritual. Ritual seems most likely since he knew they were coming and had time to prepare.

 

 

 

Well, I don't think Sedoru was. He says that he's not a battlefield warrior.

 

 

 

Well, swordsmanship won't do you much good against a powerhouse like the Sith Emperor, who doesn't even need a lightsaber.

 

 

 

I need to get my own copy of the SWTORE. Thanks.

 

 

 

I don't think anyone has said that Vitiate isn't a top-tier Sith Lord. However, I don't think he could defeat Sidious without the use of a ritual. In a straight up fight, Sidious has the power to undermine him.

 

I even doubt by ritual the Emperor would be able to beat Sidious, his greatest ritual feat so far has been the Force draining of that one planet yes?...Well Sidious can drain planets without such rituals, among other things.

Edited June 17, 2013 by Wolfninjajedi

[S_W_LeGenD]

Ah, I see. Well it doesn't say that a battle takes place, or that they even confronted the Emperor. So he either sniped them, or used a ritual. Ritual seems most likely since he knew they were coming and had time to prepare.

The word "confront" suggests that they closed in on the Emperor. The ritual argument can be ruled out since Tenebrae have purged Dark Councils two times and also such a word have never been used during these events. In addition, Tenebrae have (easily) felled whole Strike Team(s) in single combat so such a feat is not impossible for him, keeping in mind the kind of power he wields:

 

 

The Sith Emperor has mastered the dark side's power to become the most dominating Force-user the galaxy has ever seen. (SWTOR: Codex Entry)

 

 

 

The Sith Emperor is the most powerful Force-user who has ever existed. Unless this implacable enemy can be defeated, the Jedi Order is doomed. (SWTORE, Page 89)

 

 

 

The pain, energy, and suffering of every living entity on the planet fueled his power and would prolong his life for centuries. (SWTORE, Page 161)

 

 

 

The Sith Empire's exile dragged on for centuries. While the military, navy, and Sith grew strong, the Emperor amassed unfathomable power and plotted a vengeful war against the Republic. (SWTORE, Page 157)

 

 

I mean, their are too many signs.

 

As I explained before:

 

By prepared, I mean that he is absolutely ready for combat and has not invested his powers anywhere.

 

 

The pain, energy, and suffering of every living entity on the planet fueled his power and would prolong his life for centuries. (SWTORE, Page 161)

 

 

Tenebrae exceeded his biological limitations with aid of his talent in Sith Sorcery; even naturally, he was gifted with very high midi-chlorian count (supremely strong in the dark side of the Force).

 

He accomplished following condition:

 

1. Gigantic supply of energy reserves; something not possible biologically.

 

2. He would no longer deteriorate biologically for his continuous involvement in dark side practices for long long period. Even powerful Sith Lords can deteriorate significantly under a span of several decades, if they heavily delve in to dark arts, and become a mere shadow of their former selves.

 

3. His capacity as a practitioner of the Force exceeded what would have been possible with midi-chlorian count; capability to one-shot an entire Dark Council in single blow is proof of this.

 

4. On the basis of all of the above, possibilities were endless for him to delve in to any kind of dark arts and gain greater command accordingly.

 

 

-----

 

Well, I don't think Sedoru was. He says that he's not a battlefield warrior.

Characters can say anything; he may have been at his low point when he said that. Canonically, he have survived many near death situations and is among the strongest.

 

Well, swordsmanship won't do you much good against a powerhouse like the Sith Emperor, who doesn't even need a lightsaber.

Agreed...

 

I need to get my own copy of the SWTORE. Thanks.

Great read. You will enjoy it.

 

I don't think anyone has said that Vitiate isn't a top-tier Sith Lord. However, I don't think he could defeat Sidious without the use of a ritual. In a straight up fight, Sidious has the power to undermine him.

See the explanation above. I am not denying that Sidious (at his prime cannot overcome) but keeping in mind all the information available, both can defeat each other. Who knows! They might even one-shot each other after fully prepared. Though the "swift and devastating" point indicates hat Tenebrae can beat him in any setting, if ready, because it takes time to conjure up a Force Storm.

 

I even doubt by ritual the Emperor would be able to beat Sidious, his greatest ritual feat so far has been the Force draining of that one planet yes?...Well Sidious can drain planets without such rituals, among other things.

These kind of statements hold no merit. Anybody in the Star Wars can be defeated.

Edited June 17, 2013 by S_W_LeGenD

[Aurbere]

The word "confront" suggests that they closed in on the Emperor. The ritual argument can be ruled out since Tenebrae have purged Dark Councils two times and also such a word have never been used during these events. In addition, Tenebrae have (easily) felled whole Strike Team(s) in single combat so such a feat is not impossible for him, keeping in mind the kind of power he wields:

 

 

The Sith Emperor has mastered the dark side's power to become the most dominating Force-user the galaxy has ever seen. (SWTOR: Codex Entry)

 

 

 

The Sith Emperor is the most powerful Force-user who has ever existed. Unless this implacable enemy can be defeated, the Jedi Order is doomed. (SWTORE, Page 89)

 

 

 

The pain, energy, and suffering of every living entity on the planet fueled his power and would prolong his life for centuries. (SWTORE, Page 161)

 

 

 

The Sith Empire's exile dragged on for centuries. While the military, navy, and Sith grew strong, the Emperor amassed unfathomable power and plotted a vengeful war against the Republic. (SWTORE, Page 157)

 

 

I mean, their are too many signs.

 

Perhaps.

 

Characters can say anything; he may have been at his low point when he said that. Canonically, he have survived many near death situations and is among the strongest.

 

Here's his exact words: "My strengths lie in observation, subtelty, and negotiation. Not exactly welcome talents on the battlefield."

 

Take it as you will, he may just be acting humble.

 

 

Great read. You will enjoy it.

 

I'm sure.

 

These kind of statements hold no merit. Anybody in the Star Wars can be defeated.

 

That can be turned on you as well.

Edited June 17, 2013 by Aurbere

[S_W_LeGenD]

Perhaps.

In the relevant book: The events in which he used rituals to perform feats, have been explicitly mentioned in that fashion. The events in which he performed feats with his power, have been explicitly mentioned in that fashion. I am sticking to canon representation.

 

Here's his exact words: "My strengths lie in observation, subtelty, and negotiation. Not exactly welcome talents on the battlefield."

 

Take it as you will, he may just be acting humble.

He did suffered a setback once. Though canonically he is very powerful.

 

I'm sure.

It is a masterpiece. It offers lot of information about Star Wars. It will reshape your perceptions or bring clarity to them about many things in the mythos.

 

That can be turned on you as well.

His argument is misplaced; Tenebrae was siphoning energies from all of life forms he killed on Mediraas because he prevented them from merging with the Force afterwards and he was also feeding on energies of many individuals on Dromund Kaas and Revan on another planet (three different planets in total). I mean, he has no limitations regarding his Force Draining capabilities; he has galactic reach with his powers after becoming immortal.

 

Also, Sidious isn't very good at defending himself; his chances lay in the early offense. OP projected the invincibility picture for Sidious which is why I chose to correct him. I have and never will claim that Tenebrae cannot be defeated in single combat. I maintain that anybody can loose in Star Wars.

Edited June 17, 2013 by S_W_LeGenD

[Aurbere]

In the relevant book: The events in which he used rituals to perform feats, have been explicitly mentioned in that fashion. The events in which he performed feats with his power, have been explicitly mentioned in that fashion. I am sticking to canon representation.

 

Would help if it was more fleshed out. There isn't a great deal of detail in that particular instance.

 

He did suffered a setback once. Though canonically he is very powerful.

 

Aside from being a survivor, he hasn't done a great deal beside the war campaigns.

 

It is a masterpiece. It offers lot of information about Star Wars. It will reshape your perceptions or bring clarity to them about many things in the mythos.

 

I'm not sure if it will reshape my perceptions, but I could use some clarification.

 

His argument is misplaced; Tenebrae was siphoning energies from all of life forms he killed on Mediraas because he prevented them from merging with the Force afterwards and he was also feeding on energies of many individuals on Dromund Kaas and Revan on another planet (three different planets in total). I mean, he has no limitations regarding his Force Draining capabilities; he has galactic reach with his powers after becoming immortal.

 

Galactic reach? He needs a ritual for his master plan. I suppose I'll have to pick up the SWTORE to be sure.

 

Also, Sidious isn't very good at defending himself; his chances lay in the early offense. OP projected the invincibility picture for Sidious which is why I chose to correct him. I have and never will claim that Tenebrae cannot be defeated in single combat. I maintain that anybody can loose in Star Wars.

 

Well, I think Mace Windu would disagree with that first part. Sidious is more than capable of defending himself. Of course, he isn't invincible, but he is technically immortal in the sense that his spirit was able to exist forever and transfer between hosts.

 

This whole "Vitiate can beat Palpatine" thing is kinda pointless, imo. Maybe I'm just tired of the whole thing.

[S_W_LeGenD]

Would help if it was more fleshed out. There isn't a great deal of detail in that particular instance.

Well, the power was unleashed in swift manner and outcome is apparent. Detail is sufficient enough to help us figure out how potent Tenebrae can be when he is concentrating on one particular objective.

 

Aside from being a survivor, he hasn't done a great deal beside the war campaigns.

Well, he haven't been heavily explored or expanded upon yet. The authors have given us hint of his power however. This should be sufficient for starters.

 

Put it this way; Jedi Order would not send "mooks" to arrest someone as powerful as Sith Emperor or would it?

 

The fact that he was totally outclassed by Sith Emperor doesn't makes him look bad but rather it shows that how strong the Sith Lord in question is.

 

I'm not sure if it will reshape my perceptions, but I could use some clarification.

It will. Just read it.

 

Galactic reach? He needs a ritual for his master plan. I suppose I'll have to pick up the SWTORE to be sure.

Galaxy-busting feat would certainly require mastery in Dark sorcery. It wouldn't be possible through conventional means.

 

My point is that Tenebrae is not restricted to planetary scale to utilize his personal powers. He has galactic reach in this sense; being able to siphon energies from individuals on distant planets simultaneously; being able to activate his Children at will whenever he felt the need to do so and vice versa.

 

Well, I think Mace Windu would disagree with that first part. Sidious is more than capable of defending himself. Of course, he isn't invincible, but he is technically immortal in the sense that his spirit was able to exist forever and transfer between hosts.

I am not suggesting that he is weak at defending himself against certain kinds of powers; I am pointing out that he is absolutely vulnerable to lethal powers. Yoda, Luke and Galen, all have send him packing with their telekinetic abilities, if this gives you an idea. And if I recall correctly, Luke send him packing with his burst of Force lightning as well later on during DE era. In contrast, Tenebrae can unleash extremely potent bursts of energies with bare hands, capable of ripping through virtually any form of defensive application.

 

This whole "Vitiate can beat Palpatine" thing is kinda pointless, imo. Maybe I'm just tired of the whole thing.

It isn't; Tenebrae can beat him. Maybe others were not able to offer proper picture of Tenebrae's capabilities. Fortunately for me, I had the sources and explored him deeply; then I decided to share this information here so that everybody should have a fair picture of most powerful Sith Lords in mythos. Calling spade a spade is my way of debating.

Edited June 17, 2013 by S_W_LeGenD

[Aurbere]

Well, the power was unleashed in swift manner and outcome is apparent. Detail is sufficient enough to help us figure out that how potent Tenebrae can be when he is concentrating on one particular objective.

 

Okey dokey.

 

Put it this way; Jedi Order would not send "mooks" to arrest someone as powerful as Sith Emperor or would it?

 

Probably not.

 

The fact that he was totally outclassed by Sith Emperor doesn't makes him look bad but rather it shows that how strong the Sith Lord in question is.

 

Same with the B-team in ROTS.

 

It will. Just read it.

 

I'll take your word for it.

 

Galaxy-busting feat would certainly require mastery in Dark sorcery. It wouldn't be possible through conventional means.

 

Yes, obviously.

 

My point is that Tenebrae is not restricted to planetary scale to utilize his personal powers. He has galactic reach in this sense; being able to siphon energies from individuals on distant planets simultaneously; being able to activate his Children at will whenever he felt the need to do so and vice versa.

 

Ah, I see.

 

I am not suggesting that he is weak at defending himself against certain kinds of powers; I am pointing out that he is absolutely vulnerable to lethal powers. Yoda, Luke and Galen, all have send him packing with their telekinetic abilities, if this gives you an idea. And if I recall correctly, Luke send him packing with his burst of Force lightning as well later on during DE era. In contrast, Tenebrae can unleash extremely potent bursts of energies with bare hands, capable of ripping through virtually any form of defensive application.

 

When did Galen overwhelm him telekinetically. I have the TFU novel in front of me, and all Galen does is throw debris while the Emperor is distracted.

 

And given that both Luke and Yoda are held to be the most powerful Jedi of all time, I don't see the fuss.

 

It isn't; Tenebrae can beat him.

 

Fact, or your opinion?

 

Let me put it this way: if I wanted to, I would counter your arguments, but I have already debated this topic last week. I'm not too keen on doing so again. I'm not as patient as I used to be.