Dread Guards Nightmare overtuned

[arkitip]

Way to ignore 99% of a post that dismantles the other side to focus on the section that I assure you I cared least about.

 

The same way you ignored a massive amount of a post that called into question your DPS, which you and Dom have been specifically trying to discredit 1 of my guildmates for?

 

Play the game all you want. You have taken the call to stand up for your guild, I've done the same. You asked for proof, I can provide it but suddenly this is proof "you don't know" about even though 2 people from your 8m group obviously do.

 

Like I said, it's out there. I out DPS your Mercs on a fight I shouldn't with a class I shouldn't, and I'm routinely below our Mercs/Snipers/Maras. So if I'm a "low man" DPS for my guild while still being a top 3 in my class, you guys could afford to improve there.

 

I'm sure there's a sentence in there you can pick to attack. Have at it.

[FridgeLM]

I've illustrated over and over why his attack on our dps is illegitimate because it stems from only having 16 man experience in this fight. You, on the other hand, continue to ignore it.

 

Grats to Suckafish on their good attempt, they absolutely did do more dps than we demonstrated on ours.

 

That kind of thing is going to happen when we only spend 14 attempts on a boss and they spend dozens more.

 

but suddenly this is proof "you don't know" about even though 2 people from your 8m group obviously do.

 

Your reading comprehension needs work. I'm perfectly aware that parsing websites exist, but I have never been to one for this game.

 

I said this to illustrate that I don't care about them. I assure you that very few in our raid groups do.

 

I shouldn't have to point out that parsing websites draw from a sample pool that is self-selected, and that pool is tiny compared to the pool of people doing operations.

 

Sidebar: who are "our mercs" supposed to be, other than Dom? He's literally our only one other than Wobbles who we only acquired very recently.

Edited June 14, 2013 by FridgeLM

[arkitip]

I've illustrated over and over why his attack on our dps is illegitimate because it stems from only having 16 man experience in this fight. You, on the other hand, continue to ignore it.

 

Grats to Suckafish on their good attempt, they absolutely did do more dps than we demonstrated on ours.

 

That kind of thing is going to happen when we only spend 14 attempts on a boss and they spend dozens more.

 

 

 

Your reading comprehension needs work. I'm perfectly aware that parsing websites exist, but I have never been to one for this game.

 

I said this to illustrate that I don't care about them. I assure you that very few in our raid groups do.

 

I shouldn't have to point out that parsing websites draw from a sample pool that is self-selected, and that pool is tiny compared to the pool of people doing operations.

 

Sidebar: who are "our mercs" supposed to be, other than Dom? He's literally our only one other than Wobbles who we only acquired very recently.

 

You're right, I should have used "Merc"

 

I looked at your DPS comp and realized you guys use the same DPS comp as SuckaFish... no comment needed.

 

You're also right that when you quit, you don't get better and others do.

 

Good day sir.

[FridgeLM]

You're right, I should have used "Merc"

 

I looked at your DPS comp and realized you guys use the same DPS comp as SuckaFish... no comment needed.

 

You're also right that when you quit, you don't get better and others do.

 

Good day sir.

 

They're certainly becoming better at the fight and when it's nerfed I expect them to get the first 8 man kill, assuming they get in soon enough. If we beat them inside by a significant margin post-nerf I expect we'll kill it before them.

 

See you later ankle-biter.

[paowee]

it should be possible even in its current iteration. Edited June 14, 2013 by paowee

[insaneric]

I would just like to add my opinion that I really don't hope they nerf this fight. And if they do nerf it, don't do it for at least a month.

[paowee]

The Gray Order can confirm this bug. We did not test on the PTS however immediately upon seeing the enrage timer on Dread Guards, and the DPS parses, we deemed this fight mathematically impossible given the current gear level.

 

Regards,

KK

 

This was posted at the front page and i'm afraid people may not have the time to sift through the entirety of this thread and hastily believe this to be true. It is true until proven wrong. That is why i'd like to argue that the quoted text above is obsolete and MAY have been claimed without too much testing on their raid group's part. I'd like to argue that NiM DG Council is far from being a "mathematically impossible fight".

 

Here are some reasons why I believe it IS a mathematically possible fight:

 

The facts and numbers:

1) Best attempt was 10% or 110,00 Hp left before Enrage. The DPS comp was 2 Mara, 1 Sniper, 1 Merc.

2) There was 3 lighting surges which decreased the raid group's DPS uptime. Without the 3rd lightning surge, 110,000 hp left to burn is definitely possible.

3) Thanks to a suggestion from a viewer last night, SuckaFish is planning to go in again tomorrow with blue quality L55 grenades to help with this "truly" NiM worthy encounter (NiM worhty = just my opinion:o) later this afternoon at 3:00 PM PST.

 

1 Grenade = 5.2K damage x 4 (2 tanks 2 healers) = 20,800. That would've left us with ~80,000hp, that ideally could've been burned down by the raid group. Remember that was WITH 3 lightning surges bad luck? lol:mad:

 

Here are some great ideas as well from another thread by:

 

Grallmate

The Kae-Sare Legacy - Dalborra

<Vindication> <Retribution>

 

Methods to eek out that little bit more:

• Tank them close together and have the tanks focus on the DPS target. The others can be easily held through tangential AoE and taunts from swapping. Keeping them close also minimizes time spent changing targets.
  
• Know when Ciphas is going to start Surging Chain and swap straight away. Consider pre-DoTing/debuffing him when this is about to happen.
  
• now when Ciphas is going to leap away to choke and make sure melee aren't losing uptime for this.
  
• Sync all DPS CDs with Inspiration and make sure all DPS are in the Inspiration group. Multiplicity is good but many raids already do this. The fight is also long enough to get 2 Inspirations per Sentinel.
  
• Use your defensive CDs intelligently. Less healing for the healers means more DPS from them.
  
• Use Salvation intelligently. Again, less time healing means more time DPSing.
  
• Bring the adds down with AoE/tangential AoE. Some specs (Focus, TK, Sab, Tactics) will make this easier than others.
  
• Have the tanks use a main stat stim, power crystals and DPS armoring/hilt/barrel except for their set bonus armorings. Have the tanks use Underworld ear/implant instead of the Veracity ones. Have the tanks pop a power adrenal and consider a power relic.
  
• If Doom falls off when Ciphas dies (as it did on PTS) then if he can be killed before doom kills you, keep burning him. Also don't grab each circle as soon as it spawns. Try and keep the circles close together to minimize movement.
  
• Has something changed with Force Leech? On HM Shadow tanks could still use their normal rotation while leeched and the self healing just zeroed out
  

 

Streamlining individual performance, 110% FOCUS!, preemptive raiding and strong communication... couple these up with some Monster energy drinks and the spirit of not giving up despite seemingly insurmountable odds... This boss fight has clearly proven itself to be the ultimate test for the hardcore progression raiding guilds in this SWTOR community. An encounter truly worth fighting---- which does not deserve to be skipped at all---- and then call THAT progression... !

 

As a final note... don't participate in all the trolling that has been going on . Let them die down by themselves.

 

Good luck to the rest of us and remember..

 

 

 

Don't quit it, don't SKIP it!

Edited June 14, 2013 by paowee

[mastirkal]

I want to see someone beat these guys, I will however say that the fight still needs to be nerfed to be inline with other bosses currently in this nightmare ops. While it is truly difficult, it doesn't adhere to biowares promise that less than optimal composition can complete their content, which is currently completely false as we can see you need near perfection from players, unheard of rng love and composition that has amazing unison. Edited June 14, 2013 by mastirkal

[Afieri]

EDIT: Please ignore my previous post.

 

In all honesty, it seems like there are a few bugs in NiM TFB at the moment, so skipping bosses is likely to put you up against an enemy that doesn't have it's mechanics working as intended, BUT without guilds progressing that far (either linearly or in a roundabout fashion) those bugs would not be discovered. Everyone knows that the first few weeks of a new operation/difficulty coming out it is pretty much like the PTS. The issue here should not be "Hey look we killed all these bosses first except for one which is really really hard and not sure if it's doable or not" but should now be "There are a couple of bugs in these operations, let's try and get these bugs worked out so then we can have progression through a correctly functioning operation".

 

So instead of slinging faecal matter at each other's beliefs and abilities, how about we start providing information on any encounters that may seem to not be working correctly?

 

Just a thought.

Edited June 14, 2013 by Afieri

[TenderDeath]

EDIT: Please ignore my previous post.

 

In all honesty, it seems like there are a few bugs in NiM TFB at the moment, so skipping bosses is likely to put you up against an enemy that doesn't have it's mechanics working as intended, BUT without guilds progressing that far (either linearly or in a roundabout fashion) those bugs would not be discovered. Everyone knows that the first few weeks of a new operation/difficulty coming out it is pretty much like the PTS. The issue here should not be "Hey look we killed all these bosses first except for one which is really really hard and not sure if it's doable or not" but should now be "There are a couple of bugs in these operations, let's try and get these bugs worked out so then we can have progression through a correctly functioning operation".

 

So instead of slinging faecal matter at each other's beliefs and abilities, how about we start providing information on any encounters that may seem to not be working correctly?

 

Just a thought.

 

This is our approach when all is said and done. Everything DnT has done has been streamed live, recorded and posted to YouTube at the best quality we've seen, full mumble chatter for more transparency, and many mechanics clearly iterated throughout. Use it as a guide or use it as testing data in determining where the devs need to make adjustments. It speaks for itself.

[paowee]

slinging faecal matter at each other's beliefs and abilities, how about we start providing information on any encounters that may seem to not be working correctly?

 

Just a thought.

That is the best post i've read in these forums all night.

 

However people WILL criticize something that is posted to them in public. Do I accept these criticisms? Do i understand and accept the disputes to MY claims? What facade will my guild show in face of these criticisms? Will i scatter my faecal matter around the room?

 

Especially on content as long awaited as this where guilds run in and eagerly await to play against one another in the spirit of competition with the obvious, unspoken, conventional, and in the heads of many participating guild leaders, a GIVEN rule? Remember how HM SNV was a bit of a disappointment for the harder-core guilds and we were all talking about awaiting NiM TFB where everyone have a closer headstart and begin with equal footing? And then something like THIS happened. EVERYONE was working hard to push through this promising content seeing as how Council, the SECOND boss, was such a very hard encounter. And then suddenly out of the shadows, NiM TFB was dead, world 1st, full clear, world everything. Only to find out that DG Council was skipped via Hard Mode to continue through the rest of the instance.

 

To reiterate: "People WILL criticize something that is posted to them in public. But how will my guild, and my guild members react to them? Clearly this will leave a sour taste in some people's mouths?" Will i stand by my decision with integrity or will i stand by my decision by slinging fecal matter and spam X number of separate threads containing X number of separate boss kill videos?"

 

Facade 1: Bug reporting. Appreciated. Crucial data for the devs.

 

Facade 2: General dbaggery, trolling and "attitude" from select guild members. Not appreciated. That could have been handled with more tact.

 

Facade 3: In face of all the negative publicity, to pull my guild out of the "conventional, linear progression spreadsheet" and not squeeze my decision to do what I did by citing that is it not in the said spreadsheet's "written" original post.

 

I hope I've been able to write as accurately and as constructively as I can, why "people" are reacting to these claim. Is it unfair and unreasonable that people view these claims the way they do? Do i ride my high horse and dismiss everyone and tell them to st***qmaor

Quote: Originally Posted by FridgeLM

Butt doctor verdict: buttfrustrated.

That I think is what's ticking everybody off. People have "legitimate" disputes and they do not deserve any trolling at all. Especially on a long anticipated topic/content like this.

 

 

 

Maybe the guilds can agree to not do this anymore in the coming NiM SnV:confused:? What are we devolving ourselves into *sadface*. A unique loop hole was found... or artificially made, or whatever you want to name it, and then attempted to be justified using pre-dominantly rude posts, snide remarks and then some trolling. Now whatever standard your guild leaders held by, standards which became the foundation for your claims to this game's patch 2.2 achievement... World 1st NiM TFB, World 1st Op IX, or World 1st Kephess, whatever you or the rest of us call it, doesn't matter at this point. Because NiM TFB competition just turned into a big forum-fighting joke:(. I'll just go ahead and say congrats. And leave it at that.

 

 

 

 

 

Just my 2c. NOT my guild's! Anywho ima go to bed... Superman tomorrow. matinee!

 

 

 

 

EDIT:

The "elitist" raiders that are always complaining about this game being cake and that MMO's are so easy now, nothing is a challenge blah blah, are now complaining it's impossible (LOL arrogant much) because they can't clear it on launch day..

It is funny now that you mentioned it! You know what else is funny...? A joke lol. Which is what this patch's progression race just turned into. Edited June 14, 2013 by paowee

[SlytherinPrince]

Truth be told, I don't particularly care if this fight is actually in EVERY way impossible. It should be in line with the other encounters in the operation, which it currently most definitely is not. It also, even for nightmare, should not require a specific composition; this would prevent people that play certain classes from ever clearing it, which I doubt the Devs would ever intend.

 

I also think it's unfair to hold all teams in the WORLD to the standard of the one team that's managed to get it to 10%. And 10% isn't just a little bit; it'd still take time. Also, the methods suggested in a previous post, valid as they are, are not only not a guarantee, it also seems to be a bit much. If there's ever going to be a difficulty harder than nightmare, fine, but as it is now, those methods should not be -required- to clear it. Some teams got it down to 20, 40, or 60, even though these were teams that are known to be excellent raiding teams, with varying setups. I do not believe the devs would exclude these teams from ever completing the encounter. Simply put, the most logical thing to do is to at LEAST increase the enrage timer to properly accomodate the difficulty set for the rest of the raid, ignoring any bugs currently in place.

 

I respect people saying this is finally a boss hard enough to be worthy of nightmare mode, but it's just not valid if you look at the rest of the content. As it is, the boss clearly stands out as an anomaly. An operation-wide nerf need not be necessary, but one thing is for sure, and that's that the DG encounter, as it currently is, is not the as it should be.

[ckoneful]

I hate how people give up so easily. I really wish I still could raid at the top level still, damn having a job!

 

You folks realize WoW has had multiple occasions of fights like this, right? Baleroc was the 5th of 7 bosses, giant **** block for most guilds. Ultraxion was a DPS check people weren't making until one guild finally did, 5th of 8 bosses. Hell, Dragon Soul had the 7th boss harder than the final boss in Heroic.

 

Can't think of any others off the top of my head, been awhile since I played that game. It was definitely more fun doing those fights without them being nerfed as opposed to the wet boring noodles they all became.

[RTCBrad]

Funny Stuff.

 

The "elitist" raiders that are always complaining about this game being cake and that MMO's are so easy now, nothing is a challenge blah blah, are now complaining it's impossible (LOL arrogant much) because they can't clear it on launch day.

Edited June 14, 2013 by RTCBrad

[MisterMuse]

Its to bad that the rest of the fights (from what I've seen and heard) in the instance doesn't hold up to the difficulty of the DG, its a truly wonderful whiff of fresh air compared to the retarded endgame that MMOs seems to be pushing out lately.

[Sylvane]

Skipping the third surge is probably the key to killing it, we've gotten it to 20~30k range before but ran out of time before the cast of surge. We don't have a sentinel for inspiration so i imagine other people should be able to do it with inspiration if you really burn into it with tanks/heals helping. Our best attempts were going to leave us with 120k~200k left and with an extra 10 or so seconds it "should" be possible.

[Ansalem]

Ya know what I'm getting tired of seeing how this thread and other threads have devolved into mud slinging. What is wrong with this community? Stop it already or I'm calling your parents.

That being said after reading the suckafish's members post on maximizing dps for this fight I do have a couple of thoughts. Switching armorings/pieces/power crystals on tanks so they can assist on dps I get it but at the same time you are sacrificing hps which makes it rougher on the healers. You are essentially trading tank dps for more stress on healers and maybe less dps from them when they are able. Also by tanking the mobs close together you risk dots or cursory aoe effects hitting the other bosses and thus making the fight more difficult by increasing dmg output of the other bosses. This might be easier with a PT tank but I know for my guild we use a jugg + sin combo for tanking. On top of that if you are tanking kelsara too close to a certain other boss vitality drain kicks in and starts damaging your melee again making it tougher on your healers. I did like the idea with the grenades though and also I guess using NP buff would give you 50 more to stat which could be very helpful.

Even with all of that though I think it would require absolutely perfect RNG. You would need the absolute perfect run with healers getting every Doom and your ranged dps not having to move as much.

I honestly wish suckafish the best of luck in their attempts to down nightmare DG, but I still feel this fight is impossible with the gear that was available to guilds when this fight hit live.

Edited June 14, 2013 by Ansalem

[umbak]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nIX5Xml-KYU

 

Unlucky dooms with 2 on melee, missed killing Heriad before the 3rd surging charge (unusal for attempts now) and i played pathetically in p3 (twas late and we'd been pushing upwards of 34 tries that evening) and wiped on 16%.

With everything a little tighter it would have been very close.

This fight asks alot and instead of the usual burst dps, tanking and healing checks in most encounters this is a 7min marathon of each.

This attempt had the pilgrim buff though since we've had better p1+p2 tries without it but messed up positionally on p3. I'm not sure it's required but helps you make and overcome mistakes while learning the fight ^^

Every atttempt people get closer and closer. For anyone despairing stick at it guys!

Edited June 14, 2013 by umbak

[Afieri]

That being said after reading the suckafish's members post on maximizing dps for this fight I do have a couple of thoughts. Switching armorings/pieces/power crystals on tanks so they can assist on dps I get it but at the same time you are sacrificing mitigation and hps which makes it rougher on the healers.

 

Grall was only suggesting switching endurance for mainstat/power, there is no mitigation loss there and may in fact be a mitigation gain if you are a guardian/jugg tank. Only time you possibly lose mitigation from dropping endurance is if you are a shadow/assassin

[Ansalem]

Grall was only suggesting switching endurance for mainstat/power, there is no mitigation loss there and may in fact be a mitigation gain if you are a guardian/jugg tank. Only time you possibly lose mitigation from dropping endurance is if you are a shadow/assassin

 

yeah you posted this as I was editting:P Also we do have a sin tank

Edited June 14, 2013 by Ansalem

[bigheadbrandon]

Grall was only suggesting switching endurance for mainstat/power, there is no mitigation loss there and may in fact be a mitigation gain if you are a guardian/jugg tank. Only time you possibly lose mitigation from dropping endurance is if you are a shadow/assassin

 

idk if trading 800 health for 82 power is gonna up a tank's dps significantly

Edited June 14, 2013 by bigheadbrandon

[e_nk_ay]

When threads get this long people typically forget the essence of the original posts, or even the conversations that happened from pages 1-10, 10-20, etc. This thread (and the progression thread) turned into mudslinging because of people from other guilds attacking our character/our determination/our internet morals - whatever you want to call it.

 

No where did we claim that we cleared NiM TFB world first (this can be confusing, since TFB is the name of the instance as well as the final boss - maybe we should just call it Asation). But we sure as heck will claim world first (according to your chart here) WH, Op9, Kephess & TFB. We made a tactical choice by skipping DG - effectively forfeiting the ability to claim world first Asation clear if anyone gets DG since the other fights aren't as difficult.

 

We felt that the fight was overtuned and moved on - in the progression thread we even stated what we did and if you listen to our Mumble you can hear us discussing wanting to see if the rest of the instance was overtuned. What was a discussion turned into some haters/bitter people slinging mud, and then arguments and flame wars ensued. I won't be able to convince anyone to read the entire thread I'm sure, but there was a real discussion in there...somewhere.

 

To discredit our accomplishments because of some misguided e-morals or adhering to the unspoken rule of "linear progression" (which doesn't exist in any other MMO with NM/HM capabilities) comes off as petty.

Edited June 14, 2013 by e_nk_ay

[Krazy_Karl]

What we have learned:

 

• The fight cannot be done without a very specific combination of DPS.
  
• RNG must be perfect in order to even have a viable attempt, let alone a kill.
  
• The NP buff is required which also equates to the establishment that more gear is required to beat the enrage.
  
• Specific Tanking classes are needed in order to position the bosses in such a way that allows the tank to DPS.
  
• Craftable grenades will be mandatory for all players.
  
• This fight is only meant to be defeated by .01% of all active SWTOR raiders.
  

 

I think that about sums it up.

 

So if Suckafish manages to defeat them, I will eat crow as I will admit I was wrong about our "mathematical impossibility" statements. However I will use different language from here on out: "effectively impossible".

 

If it takes 100 pulls of flawless execution of mechanics with the ideal group composition to finally get the perfect RNG to achieve the kill AND that was Bioware's intention, then everyone else was correct. But that still categorically puts this fight soundly in the realm of effective impossibility.

 

And none of the armchair raiders posting in this thread pleading for it to be left alone will ever achieve the kill until the enrage timer is fixed (as this is clearly a bug).

 

Regards,

KK

[Krazy_Karl]

If they increased the enrage timer by 1 minute, about 5% of all raiding guilds will be able to defeat them this week in current gear. If it was 45 seconds would equate to 3%, 30 seconds <1%. Anything less than adding 30 seconds you are talking about RNG aspects of the fight which if the wrong person is chased by Kel'sara or is Doomed, you will still be wiping with ~20% left as a result of the enrage. Even with flawless execution, due to the random nature of the mechanics it would still be effectively impossible.

 

This needs to be part of what used to be a discussion before it turned into trolling, insults and flame wars. Does anyone actually have any relevant feedback to my suggestion above?

 

Bioware needs to decide what % of raiders they want to be able to clear NiM and adjust the enrage as such. If it is intended to exist in its current state, we need to know that as well.

 

Regards,

KK

[Ansalem]