Dual-Spec: The Necessary (VERY Necessary) Evil

[Axxtasy]

wrong, you can play every single aspect of the game. EVERY SINGLE ONE. It's called playing multiple characters, which they allow (innovative, I know) !!!!

 

People want it because they are lazy.

 

Let me go out on a limb here and guess that you are from the FPS community that has no clue about MMOs.

 

Nope. All the way since DAoC. Nice job again not addressing the PvP/PvE comment I directed at you earlier.

 

Only an idiot would suggest that you need 2 characters of the same class, or pay excessive respec costs to play PvE and PvP in this game. That is if they want to see the game last more than 6 months.

 

You don't even have a reason for not wanting this, you are just argumentative and since you don't PvE and PvP you don't care and therefor just enjoy watching people "pay the consequences".

 

Edit: After seeing your string of posts it is clear you are trolling. Almost got me.

Edited December 25, 2011 by Axxtasy

[Axxtasy]

Dual spec is not needed if you want to use another spec , re-spec and that's it. Sure you have to pay for it but that what choices are all about. I hate this whining about not being able to fill both roles for 1 class at the same time. Guess what, your not supposed to.

 

Again, reading comprehension is an important part of not looking slow. Enjoying PvE AND PvP combat in a game that contains both in abundance, but only being able to do one effectively is is not "what choices are all about", it's quite simply inane and stupid. If the respec costs are reasonable then sure, but they are not in this game. They climb to the point of absurdity and make it IMPOSSIBLE for someone to both raid and pvp effectively.

 

One more time for the cheap seat and nervous hospitals: Do you honestly think that people are going to roll 2 of the exact same class simply so they can PvE and PvP?

 

If so I simply do not know what to tell you except wake up.

[OrionBurger]

Times change people, you don't lose all your gear when you die anymore, you don't lose XP when you die, you don't have to grind mobs to level up, and you shouldn't have to level another character just to get access to another skill tree. The MMO genre continues to evolves, and people expect entertainment from a game, not a huge time sink grinding.

 

Just cause your granddaddy didn't have no dual spec back in the day, is not a reason why we shouldn't expect it now. The only reason not to have it in would be if BW wanted to create a time sink, which I don't think they want to do, because doing content they have already done bores the crap out of people.

[Siculus]

i am playing a sorc as a main and yes i am playing with some friends so at 30 a respec and went healing but when i go to do my story quest a lot of times i need one of my friends to come help me after they do there story quest. Also since at 50 you will not have done all of the chapters of questing it seems like ill have to hope that my friends will keep helping me or ill have to start paying a lot of money to keep re-spec to be able to quest on my own(story quest) or just when friends are nto around. i know its a MMO and that means being with other people to make it so that a healer and only a healer has a harder time and in some case cant do things on heir own is a little unfair. i think this is why its hard or my server to find healers for flash-points and one of the reason sith have so few healers in war-zones right now. I know in my guild we have about people who are going to quest up to 50 and dps then go heals and this must be something that is pretty common. I feel we might not see the increase other mmo see after a lot of the pop get to 50 and more tanks and healers come about because their will still be story and a lot of it to play after hitting the lvl cap. i am not sure what ill do because i know i want to be able to quest sometimes with out having a friend help me. I know we have the companions and that makes it a little better for healers.

 

sry for spelling and grammar and just the flow for this writing the after 8 hours of drinking and eating.

[Bejita]

playing through same class story twice = fail

 

dual spec plz

 

and adv class respec later on

[Erunya]

I think nescessary is too strong of a word.

 

I also think it's a bit absurd that in a massively multiplayer game, a game specifically designed around you playing with other people, that anyone can truly say they *need* to be completely self-reliant.

 

Make friends. Have fun. And I hope the game weeds out the people who just absolutely refuse to make friends. There are all kinds of other games for those people. MMOs like this should do the exact opposite and encourage social bonding.

 

Making a few friends doesn't guarantee they're always on when you are, or always free to do what you want to do. I certainly hope this game DOES NOT force people in to the position where they absolutely can not advance unless they are partnered fulltime. Too many other MMORPGs lost my money by doing this since I have a random life style that makes it rare to ever be online at the same time as others I know and meet. Should group gaming enhance the experience? For sure. Should it be mandatory? No, and it's severely near-sighted to think so...

[Valceanu]

Im so sick of these tired threads. Give it a reast already. If the game plays just fine without dual specs then it doesnt NEED it. That YOU want it, is a whole other issue. I see the same people starting these threads or posting in them. Give it a rest already. I can appreciate that you feel strongly about the issue but so do those that are against dual speccing.

 

As it stands right now there is no lack of tanks or healers. The companion system made them easy to lvl and the players have responded. There are more tanks/healers in this game (and at an early stage) then there were in many other MMOs(at least on my server).

 

There is no arena-type PvP in this game...and as far as ive seen a dedicated PvP spec is not really NEEDED to do competitive level PvP...there are literally only a handfull of talents that you would choose diferently from your PvE spec and the difference is really not that big. Those who are dedicated PvP-ers will choose them anyway. You dont NEED the exact optimum spec for every situation.

 

Also, you dont NEED to be able to fill multiple roles. The fact that you WANT to have that feature doesnt make it a necessity. So far i havent experienced problems with grouping. Actually ive seen tanks/healers looking for DPSers for groups...which seldom happened in other games...just goes to show you there are in fact enough people filling those roles.

 

Anyway...i dont know when/if this feature will come...its up to the devs...but saying its NEEDED is a gross overstatement. Theres a big difference between WANT and NEED...

[Jedikillar]

if they do this then they MUST make each spec require dif stats. As of now a corrupt sorc and a lightening sorc can swap gear and still be viable seeing as they use the same main stat. If they were to dual spec then one could just dual spec lightening and corrupt and always be able to heal or dps. if you wish to do this, then you should have to put in the time and effort to get two sets of gear. sorry if this has already been said, i didnt have time to read all the responses

[Geston]

Duel spec within your advanced class is fine and should exist.

[Rebelatto]

Nope, gold sinking + thinking before choosing.

[Axxtasy]

Im so sick of these tired threads. Give it a reast already. If the game plays just fine without dual specs then it doesnt NEED it. That YOU want it, is a whole other issue. I see the same people starting these threads or posting in them. Give it a rest already. I can appreciate that you feel strongly about the issue but so do those that are against dual speccing.

 

As it stands right now there is no lack of tanks or healers. The companion system made them easy to lvl and the players have responded. There are more tanks/healers in this game (and at an early stage) then there were in many other MMOs(at least on my server).

 

There is no arena-type PvP in this game...and as far as ive seen a dedicated PvP spec is not really NEEDED to do competitive level PvP...there are literally only a handfull of talents that you would choose diferently from your PvE spec and the difference is really not that big. Those who are dedicated PvP-ers will choose them anyway. You dont NEED the exact optimum spec for every situation.

 

Also, you dont NEED to be able to fill multiple roles. The fact that you WANT to have that feature doesnt make it a necessity. So far i havent experienced problems with grouping. Actually ive seen tanks/healers looking for DPSers for groups...which seldom happened in other games...just goes to show you there are in fact enough people filling those roles.

 

Anyway...i dont know when/if this feature will come...its up to the devs...but saying its NEEDED is a gross overstatement. Theres a big difference between WANT and NEED...

 

This is a valid response, although I think you are underplaying how important PvP specs will be when the RvR starts and guild groups really start rolling.

[Axxtasy]

Nope, gold sinking + thinking before choosing.

 

Would you care to elaborate on your largely unintelligible post?

[Psykhe]

Anyway...i dont know when/if this feature will come...its up to the devs...but saying its NEEDED is a gross overstatement. Theres a big difference between WANT and NEED...

 

True, however in the end only one thing is really "needed" - no gamestopping bugs or design errors which make it impossible to play the game and progress in it.

 

You do not "need" good stories, graphics, voiceovers, class balance, new content, mounts, quests, gear, ....

That does not make those things not very desireable though. The same applies for dual spec.

 

Leveling as healer or tank is possible, but so is playing the game without every buying a mount. Just because it is possible it does not mean it is optimal or enjoyable.

 

As healer you will take a fair amount longer to fight stuff. Companions do not help there. DPS has companions too and will in any case always do significantly more DPS than dps companions. In addition to this fights as healer will also be more boring, because they are less challenging. They will take longer, but you will have a smaller chance to die.

 

Everyone who enjoys slow and boring leveling can feel free to level as healer. I don't.

 

Im so sick of these tired threads. Give it a reast already

 

There will be a rest for them until there has been a definite dev post about it being added or not. Until then there will be such threads so the devs see that there is a strong desire from the playerbase for dual spec.

Edited December 27, 2011 by Psykhe

[DevDevil]

game needs dual spec.... the price to respec is way to much after 4 times

 

if not a dual spec at least put a credit cap on respecing atm what i respec 10 times and im having to pay a million or more maybe!?

Edited December 27, 2011 by DevDevil

[glowpipe]

The way it currently works. Sucks hard.

 

We are 4 friends. (used to be 5 but one was left out of flashpoints so he left us. Thanks a bunch for that. 5 player have been the standard since dawn of days. Counter strike, rift. Wow and the list goes on, but this is a completly different matter)

 

Anyways. we are 4 friends leveling together now. We planned to play a lot of flashpoints together.

we are 1 jedi guardian, 1 jedi shadow. 1 smuggler gunslinger and me as a commando trooper..

 

I was going to heal and so i did. Leveling is a healer is so slow compared to leveling as pure dps. So its no way in hell its worth it. lvl 30-31 took about the same time as a healer, as 38-40 took as a dps. And yes. im not ******** you.

 

So i had to go back and forth. Healing spec for flashpoints and dps for leveling and pvp.

 

And its also the way i want to be playing.

 

Now here is the issue at hand. Credits. It now cost me 40k credits to go healer again. And it would be even more to go back to dps after we are done with the FP's for the day.

 

i guess around 50-60k.

 

I cant push out that much credits EVERYTIME.

 

So now. My friends are down to 3. >Im excluded from dungeons because i simply cant afford it and none of the others can heal. So yay for this.

 

We need dualspec yesterday and we should have had it yesterday.

 

Im considering canceling my sub if this isnt fixed soon. It just takes away so much from the game and forces you to play that one way, not how you want to play it

 

DS isnt needed if they atleast sort out the respec costs. 10k credits max or something.

[Rivaris]

The way it currently works. Sucks hard.

 

We are 4 friends. (used to be 5 but one was left out of flashpoints so he left us. Thanks a bunch for that. 5 player have been the standard since dawn of days. Counter strike, rift. Wow and the list goes on, but this is a completly different matter)

 

Anyways. we are 4 friends leveling together now. We planned to play a lot of flashpoints together.

we are 1 jedi guardian, 1 jedi shadow. 1 smuggler gunslinger and me as a commando trooper..

 

I was going to heal and so i did. Leveling is a healer is so slow compared to leveling as pure dps. So its no way in hell its worth it. lvl 30-31 took about the same time as a healer, as 38-40 took as a dps. And yes. im not ******** you.

 

So i had to go back and forth. Healing spec for flashpoints and dps for leveling and pvp.

 

And its also the way i want to be playing.

 

Now here is the issue at hand. Credits. It now cost me 40k credits to go healer again. And it would be even more to go back to dps after we are done with the FP's for the day.

 

i guess around 50-60k.

 

I cant push out that much credits EVERYTIME.

 

So now. My friends are down to 3. >Im excluded from dungeons because i simply cant afford it and none of the others can heal. So yay for this.

 

We need dualspec yesterday and we should have had it yesterday.

 

Im considering canceling my sub if this isnt fixed soon. It just takes away so much from the game and forces you to play that one way, not how you want to play it

 

DS isnt needed if they atleast sort out the respec costs. 10k credits max or something.

 

sounds to me your friends are a bunch of Loot h*res. if they were real Friends they would help you level by running you true heroic quest each day and help pay for a respec.

Find some new friends because these arent even worth to be called friends.

 

now to go on topic Dual-spec isnt needed, your all just spoiled by all the other mmo that have it. i rahter have a good healer or tank then some 1 that switches to his second spec with crappy greens to match it no idea how to heal/tank or use his skills and make a FP last 2 hours instead of a hour or less

[Khalirei]

On every server i've been in, there is roughly a 95% dps overflow. Even the people that choose "guardian" or "vanguard" level up their DPS trees and can't tank. I leveled up a healer and the majority of these people can't even do damage correctly.

 

If you want people to "live with the consequences" and all the ******** you guys so casually spew out against dual spec, then you should first learn to play your role so the rest of us don't have to suffer for it when we could just SWITCH and do your job more efficiently. I would be having more fun as a healer if people knew how to DPS and how to NOT hit CC'ed mobs.

 

I've yet to also play with a tank that knows how to tank. Back to square 1 with this game in the MMO land, all the noobs are having to learn how to do everything.

 

I have no patience for this and I don't really care to wait for someone to learn, I'd rather just switch and do the job for them.

[Psykhe]

sounds to me your friends are a bunch of Loot h*res. if they were real Friends they would help you level by running you true heroic quest each day and help pay for a respec.

Find some new friends because these arent even worth to be called friends.

 

So according to you it is perfectly fine that healers need credit donations from their friends or to their friends boosting them in group content to keep up with them while a DPS does not need this?

 

Rrrrrright.

 

now to go on topic Dual-spec isnt needed, your all just spoiled by all the other mmo that have it. i rahter have a good healer or tank then some 1 that switches to his second spec with crappy greens to match it no idea how to heal/tank or use his skills and make a FP last 2 hours instead of a hour or less

 

Yes, because you totally learn how to heal in groups by doing it in solo-PVE. Oh, wait, no you don't because it is a totally different playstyle there.

 

That argument has been repeated ad infinitum already and is still utterly wrong. You do not learn *anything* about healing while soloing except the basic mechanics which anyone can pick up in 5 minutes. If you need longer I'd suggest to play something simpler, like tic-tac-toe.

 

And "just spoiled by all the other mmo" - except a huge eyeroll I only have this to that ***** comment - Lets remove mounts! Spending time with menial tasks like grinding credits or walking is FUN according to you after all! We are just spoled by the other MMOs, we do not need that faster travelling. We are vets! Internet hardmen! We can take it! We want it!

Edited December 27, 2011 by Psykhe

[WheresDaBeef]

I'm waiting for the game to DL so what do I do? Creep the forums!

 

From what i have heard from all my guildies in the game right now, Duel Spec would be a blessing, necessary and far from evil. Some of the arguments I have seen against duel spec are some of the most deflated or simply incorrect arguments I have ever seen on a forum (and that says A LOT.)

 

"your all just spoiled by all the other mmo that have it. i rahter have a good healer or tank then some 1 that switches to his second spec with crappy greens to match it no idea how to heal/tank or use his skills and make a FP last 2 hours instead of a hour or less"

 

Is that a serious argument? Because if so it is completely invalid. If anything, with duel spec it means that the aforementioned super-idiot can be replaced by anyone else with a heals off or main spec. See instead that exact idiot, who rolled a heal spec and does the exact same thing, only he is crappy greens without duel-spec and insists on trying to heal.

 

As mentioned before, even for a PVP PVE spec, multiple trees would be a fantastic selection. In WOW I am Disc PVE Disc PVP, and hardly filled with crappy greens extending instances for fun. While others may choose to diversify in pve or even take 2 pvp spots, that removes NOTHING from the game: literally nothing is removed, only added.

 

To Argue the semantics of NEED and WANT in a video game is also stupid. If the game wants to ensure a balance and multitude of players in PVE and PVP then yes, it does NEED dual spec, not as a point of existence, but as an alternative to creating the same class with different specs, a waste of play time and credit cost (imo).

[WheresDaBeef]

wrong, you can play every single aspect of the game. EVERY SINGLE ONE. It's called playing multiple characters, which they allow (innovative, I know) !!!!

 

People want it because they are lazy.

 

Let me go out on a limb here and guess that you are from the FPS community that has no clue about MMOs.

 

 

Lazy isn't the right word. What if someone wants to play a class from two different perspectives with a relatively easy switch. Your suggestion ("playing multiple characters") would mean rolling the exact same class going through similar story lines in order to achieve something that other games allow you to do with dual-spec.

That, to me, is a waste of time. I am not here for the leveling experience, I am here for end game content. A bad mentality, a very WoW mentality maybe, but if I am here for simply leveling experience, pardon me while i go wipe mass effect and beat it again, play skyrim, or go play saints row three again.

 

No, I am here for end game content, end game raiding, end game pvp. Leveling is something I will do to get there, but if the game would let me focus on that end game, get good at that, and allow me the liberty of not grinding quests, that would be a great bonus.

 

Lazy is paying 300$ to get someone to power level. Duel spec is not lazy, in the same way that mounts aren't lazy, buying and selling matts off the AH isn't lazy, and people caring enough to post on often-times rarely visited forums isn't lazy.

[Daekarus]

Ummm... you CAN switch... they just don't want you switching all the time! This means that if long-term situations warrant it, you can reskill. However, you're not going to want to reskill every dungeon or every few days so you can level as a dps and raid as a healer. That would be... well, let's just say that it's not appropriate in a game that's putting the RPG back in MMORPG. Perhaps you should get some friends that you can actually play with? Or who will help with reskilling costs? Or if you need a healer AND a dps, ROLL ANOTHER TOON. Like everybody has always done in most games since tabletop games were invented.

[Psykhe]

Perhaps you should get some friends that you can actually play with? Or who will help with reskilling costs?

 

And care to explain why a healer needs "friends who help with reskilling costs" and a DPS doesn't? And care to explain why most of the game is actually SOLO content if it is "meant" to be played wholly with friends?

 

 

Also, a spec has nothing to do with RPGing. RPGing is acting as a certain personality, not deciding if you want to use a dagger or blaster rifle today. A different spec is not really different from a different gear selection.

 

And dual specs has become a standart in all recent MMORPGs, so if you argue about the status quo its an argument for dual spec - not against.

[Daekarus]

See, this is the problem... MMOs have lacked the RPG component for so long that people actually don't know what RPG gaming entails. If you're playing a role, pretending to be another person, then we have to assume that you'll make the same combat choices as that person. People in historical settings (and most often in modern settings, barring a few anomalies) tended to select a single combat paradigm and master that. Why? Because anything else got you killed. A realistic character does not constantly switch between different roles, magically forgetting and remembering how to do things. The respec option is there because people DO change and learn new things as life goes on, NOT because it's reasonable to be a world-class brain surgeon one moment and a special-ops commando the next.

 

IMHO, the current crop of MMOs encourage metagaming, FOTM, and instant gratification at the expense of characterization and specialization. I do know that dual-speccing wasn't around before and nobody ever seemed to have problems without it. I still can't figure out why people think it's necessary.

 

Don't get me wrong - total repecs should be allowed. Mistakes are made and people change their minds. I'm speccing gunnery on my commamdo atm, but I may respec to healing depending on future companions. But this ADD flip-flopping where you expect one character to fill different roles each moment is ridiculous... you might as well just do away with specialization altogether, or allow many skill trees which are hot-swappable on a whim.

 

Again... please try to imagine RPG gaming BEFORE the whining compromise-fest that is WoW. This game hails back to those original ideals, where you played AS a character, not as a person-shaped digital multitool that did everything at the press of a button.

 

EDIT: And you only need help with respeccing costs if you're doing it wrong. If a dps-primary wanted to switch back and forth between dps and healing or tanking like a schizophrenic maniac, then they would have to pay the same amounts and need help paying too. That's the point - it's an option, but they don't want you to switch back and forth all the time. What you're whining about is that a healer takes longer to level than a dps... which is so consistent and obvious across multiple MMOs that it staggers me to hear anyone moaning about it. The amazing part is, thanks to companions, it's actually easier to level healers in this game (as healers!) than other games.

Edited December 28, 2011 by Daekarus

[Psykhe]

See, this is the problem... MMOs have lacked the RPG component for so long that people actually don't know what RPG gaming entails. If you're playing a role, pretending to be another person, then we have to assume that you'll make the same combat choices as that person. People in historical settings (and most often in modern settings, barring a few anomalies) tended to select a single combat paradigm and master that....

 

Except this isn't the case. The common soldier, usually yes, but the special forces type most definitely not. And that is exactly the type of what basically all player chars are.

 

We are the "few anomalies".

[Daekarus]

Ummm... right. Because special-forces units are often recalled from deep-insertion to work in field hospitals or to replace combat engineers. Do they know how to use both a pistol AND a rifle well? Of course, those are both equipment required for their role! However, they're not often trained on organ reconstruction, field fortifications, hacking, engine maintenance, helicopter piloting, or anything else. They don't NEED to know those things, they're better off training to do their primary mission to a superlative degree.

 

If you take this back to the middle-ages, it's even more pronounced.... you had to train for your entire life to shoot longbows, for instance, and you can bet knights didn't waste their time operating catapults.

 

EDIT: Trust me, spend a little time with real firearms and you'll realize that special-forces level proficiency in operation of even a single weapons platform like the M16/M4 is a heroic undertaking to obtain AND maintain. Now consider that the training for their single role is HUGELY more complex than that one facet. It is simply not realistic to expect a single person to be able to do absolutely everything. If that were possible, world militaries would be considerably smaller, special forces team members wouldn't specialize, and James Bond wouldn't be fiction.

 

The whole point of the entire class and skill system is specialization, associating a certain set of abilities and experience with a character. Dual-speccing destroys this, leaving us with characters that are simply paper dolls in which you place the desired abilities rather than developing and growing a specific skillset with time. It is a symptom of pervasive metagaming, or more bluntly, the result of stunted imaginations that cannot appreciate or understand immersion and character development. Please go ruin some other MMO without the RPG component, there are plenty of them out there.

Edited December 28, 2011 by Daekarus