Petition: Make Crit and other stats useful again

[Paulman]

Currently there is almost no reason to have anything but power. Allow players more options please.

[Yeochins]

Currently there is almost no reason to have anything but power. Allow players more options please.

 

Crit is never going to be useful for classes that have auto-crit builds.

 

You need to strip away auto-crits from all classes before critical-hit chance becomes any use in PvP again.

[cashogy_reborn]

Crit is never going to be useful for classes that have auto-crit builds.

 

You need to strip away auto-crits from all classes before critical-hit chance becomes any use in PvP again.

 

not all classes have auto crits......

[stephenalandavie]

Crit is good for infiltration/deception

[Yodawizard]

What I don't understand is why crit was nerfed but not auto-crit. Just widens the gap if you ask me.

[Paulman]

What I don't understand is why crit was nerfed but not auto-crit. Just widens the gap if you ask me.

 

True. The stats should be more balanced so that players can pick diffent things. That is pretty much the reason for having them in the first place.

 

By making crit so hard to obtain it makes autocrit abilities that much better.

[Astarica]

Having less crit makes crit more valuable. In pre 2.0 you've close to 25% crit with no crit modifier, versus now it's somewhere around 20%. The problem, as mentioned, is that none of this accounts for auto crit or even talents that add a considerable amount of crit. For example if your class's talent adds 15% crit on your hardest hitting attack, then your base crit on your hardest hitting attack is 35%, and if you look at the amount of crit needed to get another % you might say 35% seems good enough compared to say 40%. If your base is stuck at 20%, going from 20% to 25% is considerably better than going form 35% to 40%.

 

Not only should the auto crit abilities nerfed, but most talents that add crit should be revised as well. It makes no sense when you get like 5-6% from crit rating on a standard setup (wearing all stock Conqueror) and yet you've multiple talents that add 5% crit. However, it's complicated because this gets into a PvE issue as well. These large amount of crits make sense for PvE because it's not like mobs with 6 or 7 digit HP even care if you crit for 10K more often or not. Players, on the other hand, obviously do care a lot about these 10K crits when you're on the receiving end.

[kweassa]

Crits are fine. If anything, its a step in the right direction.

 

The last 16 years of the history of online gaming accounts for the experience accumulated through various "experiments" of game developing, and empirically speaking, most developers now know that it is wise to limit critical chances under a certain level, for non-crit dependent character classes.

 

Also empirically speaking, crit-dependent classes are usually the "glass-cannon" types or light-defense stealth types, which usually wield a crit-rate of around 25 to 40% (40% being an extreme case, such as early days of Aion -- and duely criticized, ofcourse), and a crit multiplier of 50~100% (1.5 ~ 2.0 multiplied to base output, in extreme cases even 2.5. Some "special" skills (such as the typical rogue-assasin type 'backstab') get around even 300~400%)... as portrayed in most games.

 

In contrast, in most games, non-crit dependent classes rarely rise above 10~15%. In that aspect, SWTOR is actually still way more lenient in character building, in that through use of modification players get a wide option of customizing their character performance. Even a tanking build can get 20% crit chance or higher, if one chooses so, and that's a lot.

 

 

There are some similar numbers for other traits as well. For instance, a "dodge/evade" type of defense becomes noticeably useful only around 50% dodge chance or more, and generally anything under 40% will often make players wonder if its worth anything. In case of damage resistance, the figures are noticeable from between 75~150%, in case of multiplicative calculatiosn, and 30~40% if it is "flat" damage reduction.

 

In case of SWTOR tanks, they wield both damage reduction and dodge/evade chance for personal defense, plus another extra layer of mitigation known as "shield" -- hence the much lower defense numbers than most other games.

[Paulman]

Crits are fine. If anything, its a step in the right direction.

 

The last 16 years of the history of online gaming accounts for the experience accumulated through various "experiments" of game developing, and empirically speaking, most developers now know that it is wise to limit critical chances under a certain level, for non-crit dependent character classes.

 

Also empirically speaking, crit-dependent classes are usually the "glass-cannon" types or light-defense stealth types, which usually wield a crit-rate of around 25 to 40% (40% being an extreme case, such as early days of Aion -- and duely criticized, ofcourse), and a crit multiplier of 50~100% (1.5 ~ 2.0 multiplied to base output, in extreme cases even 2.5. Some "special" skills (such as the typical rogue-assasin type 'backstab') get around even 300~400%)... as portrayed in most games.

 

In contrast, in most games, non-crit dependent classes rarely rise above 10~15%. In that aspect, SWTOR is actually still way more lenient in character building, in that through use of modification players get a wide option of customizing their character performance. Even a tanking build can get 20% crit chance or higher, if one chooses so, and that's a lot.

 

 

There are some similar numbers for other traits as well. For instance, a "dodge/evade" type of defense becomes noticeably useful only around 50% dodge chance or more, and generally anything under 40% will often make players wonder if its worth anything. In case of damage resistance, the figures are noticeable from between 75~150%, in case of multiplicative calculatiosn, and 30~40% if it is "flat" damage reduction.

 

In case of SWTOR tanks, they wield both damage reduction and dodge/evade chance for personal defense, plus another extra layer of mitigation known as "shield" -- hence the much lower defense numbers than most other games.

 

I'm not saying that people should be running around with 40% crit chance. I am saying that the stat gained from ratings through gear should be gained on a more even footing. Crit rating, alacrity, main stat, etc. should be more valuable. Currently it's all about power.

[kweassa]

I'm not saying that people should be running around with 40% crit chance. I am saying that the stat gained from ratings through gear should be gained on a more even footing. Crit rating, alacrity, main stat, etc. should be more valuable. Currently it's all about power.

 

There's nothing wrong with it. Ultimately, in game design the importance of crits should never exceed that of baseline performance. The very phenomenon that most people are looking to seek ways to increase power rather than crit, is actually an evidence that means the game's going in the right direction.

 

If anything, as Astarica partially mentioned, its the proliferation of the "auto-crit" traits, which are too powerful in the game, that makes people value crit less. People usually don't care about basic attacks or 2nd grade power/skills getting crit hits -- they usually care about their single, trusty "main attack" to get crit -- and just too many classes/builds have an auto-crit feature with in junction with powers --- the prime example being Focus/Rage specs.

 

Increasing the crit-chance more, just means the crit chance, on TOP of the already abundant auto-crit powers, will be boosting damage of ALL attack/heal powers even more.

 

Everybody is going to start walking around nuclear missiles and insta-heal machines -- and that's a bad way for a PvP design to go. A exceedingly long TTK is still more preferable to an extremely short TTK, as we've all experienced around 1.2 ~ 1.3.

[CommanderJitis]

What I don't understand is why crit was nerfed but not auto-crit. Just widens the gap if you ask me.

 

Well I will give you a tip: From 1.2 patch to 1.7 patch, everybody knew that there were 2 things which were overpowered for pvp: Bubble Stun and Smash. Bubble Stun got nerfed. Smash got buffed and now rage spec is even more overpowered. At the same time, snipers, which are the counterclass to Smashers, are crit dependant. And crit got nerfed... So yeah, one does not need to be Einstein to realize that most of the Bioware developers are smash monkeys.

[cashogy_reborn]

"too many classes have auto-crit"........

 

yea no. sniper has an auto crit, 1 spec of warrior has auto-crit, 1 spec of powertech has auto-crit, and 1 spec of sorc has auto-crit.

 

so 6 out of 24 different specs have auto crits. stop saying auto-crits are abundant. just b/c a lot of people happen to play the specs with the auto-crits (for obvious reasons, its imbalanced) does not mean there are too many.

 

ffs, id *love* an autocrit on my commando. but there isnt one in any of the 3 trees.

[Astarica]

Crit should be less valuable in total damage output than Power or any other stat in PvP because Crit adds unpredictability in PvP (but not PvE, because mobs have far too much HP to care).

 

For example let's say a class cannot crit at all and they do more DPS in every applicable category (sustained/burst/ranged/melee/whatever) by a small margin (say, 5%). But against this class, if you have 50% of your HP you're actually very safe because they'd have no single attack that can do 6000 damage in one shot to bring you to execute range (no existing attack does 6000 damage uncrit). In fact a healer would feel rather comfortable facing one of those class since there's absolutely no surprises here (a healer's total HPS still exceeds this class's DPS easily).

 

Now of course classes that can crit do have attacks that do more than 6000 damage in one shot, which means the healer has to be more careful or he risks taking a big hit and then dip into execute range. It won't always happen, but it's something you got to be worried about.

 

Heatseeker Missile is an example of an attack that does work in concept. It hits very hard and is easy to setup, but there are no talents that increases its crit chance specifically. So if you want more 8K HSM crits you got to invest more in crits, which will likely reduce the damage it does by some too (because crit come at the expense of power).

 

An example of a less well designed attack would be Marksmanship Sniper. There's several talents that adds a very generous amount of crit% to their hardest hitting attacks. Your hardest hitting talents are likely to have 30%+ chance of critting so you can often get away with stacking power, since your talent already cover most of the crit you need.

 

And of course, an example of a terribly designed attack would be Smash, which has 100% chance to crit, so there is literally no value to getting more crit so far as Smash is concerned. Unsurprisingly Smashers tend to be all power/surge. In fact, just imagine if Smash didn't auto crit. Sure, people can still smash for 10K, but that'd only happen about 20% of the time, and I'm sure people wouldn't mind these odds. If you want to crit more often, you'll have to sacrifice some Power. That's how tradeoffs are supposed to work, but with autocrit abilities there aren't any.

Edited June 7, 2013 by Astarica

[Paulman]

There's nothing wrong with it. Ultimately, in game design the importance of crits should never exceed that of baseline performance. The very phenomenon that most people are looking to seek ways to increase power rather than crit, is actually an evidence that means the game's going in the right direction.

 

If anything, as Astarica partially mentioned, its the proliferation of the "auto-crit" traits, which are too powerful in the game, that makes people value crit less. People usually don't care about basic attacks or 2nd grade power/skills getting crit hits -- they usually care about their single, trusty "main attack" to get crit -- and just too many classes/builds have an auto-crit feature with in junction with powers --- the prime example being Focus/Rage specs.

 

Increasing the crit-chance more, just means the crit chance, on TOP of the already abundant auto-crit powers, will be boosting damage of ALL attack/heal powers even more.

 

Everybody is going to start walking around nuclear missiles and insta-heal machines -- and that's a bad way for a PvP design to go. A exceedingly long TTK is still more preferable to an extremely short TTK, as we've all experienced around 1.2 ~ 1.3.

 

*** are you talking about? I am not talking about increasing stats to astronomical levels. I am talking about making them more equal in value. Currently power has such a high value there is little point to get anything else.

 

This would not increase TTK, as in order to gain from one stat you need to give up something from another. Have a LOWER crit chance with HIGHER base damage decreases the overall possible TTK and makes the overall game more prone to randomness. A player can get a string of a couple lucky hits doing massive damage. vs. With a higher crit rating and less base damage possible TTK is INCREASED and the damage is more constant.

 

The purpose of stats in the game are to be able to customize your character. Currently they don't serve their purpose as there is little point to getting anything but power.

[akabane_k]

"too many classes have auto-crit"........

 

yea no. sniper has an auto crit, 1 spec of warrior has auto-crit, 1 spec of powertech has auto-crit, and 1 spec of sorc has auto-crit.

 

so 6 out of 24 different specs have auto crits. stop saying auto-crits are abundant. just b/c a lot of people happen to play the specs with the auto-crits (for obvious reasons, its imbalanced) does not mean there are too many.

 

ffs, id *love* an autocrit on my commando. but there isnt one in any of the 3 trees.

 

all 3 mara specs have an autocrit, both dps juggs specs have autocrit, tank sin has autocrit, so its more like 11 of 24, I would count around half as being abundant

[Paulman]

Crit should be less valuable in total damage output than Power or any other stat in PvP because Crit adds unpredictability in PvP (but not PvE, because mobs have far too much HP to care).

.

 

The lower the crit chance the less predictable it is. At 100% crit chance the damage will always be the same. That's very predictable! What you have right now are big hits with high base damage through power, a couple of lucky crits even at a low chance can end someone.

[ForsakenKing]

i wouldnt count the GS/Sniper auto-crit in there. only 1 spec really uses it. Sab/Eng rarely use that ability and DF/Leth never does. And the skill that is effects is a filler attack rather than any of our big hits. Edited June 7, 2013 by ForsakenKing

[cashogy_reborn]

all 3 mara specs have an autocrit, both dps juggs specs have autocrit, tank sin has autocrit, so its more like 11 of 24, I would count around half as being abundant

 

dayum, didnt realize there were so many.

 

wtb autocrit on demo round

[Blasphemerr]

I had a reason for compiling this list, but I forgot. Here it is anyway. Correct it as required.

 

Shadow:

Force Synergy Force critical hits increase critical chance +9% for 10s. First-row talent.

Particle Acceleration: Auto-crit project/finishes CD. Tank Tree

Force Potency: +60% force critical chance per charge (2) base (3) set bonus. 90s CD (base) 75s (set bonus) finishes CD on combat exit (infiltration).

 

Sage:

Force Potency: +60% force critical chance per charge (2) base.

Penetrating light +3% force critical chance. First-row talent.

Critical Kinesis: +6% critical chance for disturbance/telekinetic throw. Second-row talent.

Turbulence 9s cd: (Telekinetics) Autocrits when target is affected by weaken mind (instant, no cd)

 

Guardian:

Force Rush: (vigilance): Overhead Slash, Dispatch and Plasma Brand have 100% chance to increase the critical chance of your next Blade Storm by 50%. Stacks 2 times. Lasts 15s.

Felling Blow (focus): Force Leap and Zealous Leap have a 100 % chance to make your next Force Sweep used within 20 seconds an automatic critical hit.

 

Sentinel:

Juyo Mastery & Zeal:(watchman) +18% dot critical chance at 6 stacks of Juyo form.

Immaculate Force (combat): Opportune Attack (proc) increases the critical chance of Blade Storm by 100%.

Felling Blow (focus): Force Leap and Zealous Leap have a 100 % chance to make your next Force Sweep used within 20 seconds an automatic critical hit.

 

Gunslinger:

No Holds Barred Increases ranged and tech critical chance by 3%. First-row talent.

Slick Shooter(sharpshooter): Increases the critical hit chance of Charged Burst, Speed Shot and Trickshot by 4%.

Aim High(sharpshooter): Increases the critical chance of Quickdraw and Speed Shot by 15%

Reopen Wounds (Dity Fighting) Increases the critical chance of Wounding Shots and Speed Shot by 8%.

Black Market Equipment(Dity Fighting) Increases the critical hit chance of all periodic effects by 12%.

 

Scoundrel:

No Holds Barred Increases ranged and tech critical chance by 3%. First-row talent.

Element of Surprise Increases the critical hit chance of Back Blast and Shoot First by 16%. First-row talent.

Black Market Equipment(Dity Fighting) Increases the critical hit chance of all periodic effects by 12%.

 

Vanguard:

Demolition +6% elemental critical chance. First-row talent.

Combat (tactics) While High Energy Cell is Stockstrike makes your next High Impact Bolt automatic critical hit.

Burnout (assault) +3% tech critical chance.

Blaster Augs: Plasma Cell: Increases ranged critical chance 3%. Second-row tactics talent.

 

Commando:

Field Training Increases ranged and tech critical chance by 3%. First-row talent.

Special Munitions: Plasma Cell: Increases ranged critical chance 6%. Second-row gunery talent

[JediMasterSLC]

Technically, 10/24 specs have an autocrit.

 

After some extensive number crunching, getting at least some crit rating appears to be beneficial for 8/21 non-tank specs:

All 3 heal specs (bonus healing doesn't scale as much with power as bonus damage does- .17 per point vs .23- so running all power is not optimal for HPS. Sages/sorcs and mando/mercs also have a crit perk).

 

Infil and balance shadows/deception and madness assassins.

 

TK sages/lightning sorcs

 

Probably balance sages/madness sorcs

 

Maybe watchman sentinels/annihilation marauders

 

My opinion is that crit rating isn't quite as bad as many suggest, but it's still a slightly underpowered stat than should be slightly buffed. One thing that people should know is that even if you're playing a spec other than one of the ones I listed, running a couple hundred crit rating instead of full power will only lower your DPS by a very marginal amount.

[foxmob]

"too many classes have auto-crit"........

 

yea no. sniper has an auto crit, 1 spec of warrior has auto-crit, 1 spec of powertech has auto-crit, and 1 spec of sorc has auto-crit..

 

LOL -- that's misleading. the auto crit for VG/PT is in the middle tree. it doesn't do the same dmg as the pyro/assault tree, and it doesn't reset as quickly. it's NOTHING like an auto crit on smash.

[SenatorPalpaTANG]

How are so many people completely missing the point? The OP wasn't about auto-crit vs crit rating stacking, it's about the much steeper DR curve on crit (and other ratings like defense, alacrity etc) at 55.

 

At 50 balancing your stats was compelling to varying degrees (depending on spec), but as it stands now there's little reason to slot anything other than power/surge in every item, regardless of class/spec. Yes there is something wrong with that.

[xxIncubixx]

What I don't understand is why crit was nerfed but not auto-crit. Just widens the gap if you ask me.

 

because failware has no clue maybe?

[kweassa]

*** are you talking about? I am not talking about increasing stats to astronomical levels. I am talking about making them more equal in value. Currently power has such a high value there is little point to get anything else.

 

And I've explained it already why there are differences in the efficiency of crit-specifications, easily enough for even a *&%!#* moron to understand.

 

If you want this discussion to go no-holds barred offensive mud-slinging, bring it on.

 

 

This would not increase TTK, as in order to gain from one stat you need to give up something from another. Have a LOWER crit chance with HIGHER base damage decreases the overall possible TTK and makes the overall game more prone to randomness. A player can get a string of a couple lucky hits doing massive damage. vs. With a higher crit rating and less base damage possible TTK is INCREASED and the damage is more constant.

 

As a total, if the probability of crits increase over a certain threshold, the expected outcome averages upto a point where it exceeds the damage output of a solid build that emphasizes on baseline, guaranteed performance.

 

The very reason you're acting like a typical ****** over crit chance (that already exceeds average crit chance of most of MMOGs out there), is the same very reason why crit chance should not be 'proliferated' amongst non crit-dependent classes, as you would prefer. I've already very politely told you that threshold for non-crit dependent classes are around 10% in most other games. In SWTOR you could still get around 20% without substantially 'failing' your class's original strengths -- which is, again, higher than most games out there.

 

 

The purpose of stats in the game are to be able to customize your character. Currently they don't serve their purpose as there is little point to getting anything but power.

 

Well, your notion of 'customization' is more akin to a walking munchkin freak. Something like, "hey, lookit me, I want to be a super strong tank as well as have high damage, so let me maintain my baseline defensive capacity, as well as bringing up my crit chance to something like 30%"

 

Comprende?

Edited June 8, 2013 by kweassa

[AlrikFassbauer]

What if I meet a critter ? Out in the wild ? You know, one of those animals ... Edited June 8, 2013 by AlrikFassbauer