Does BioWare tacitly approve of guild bank thefts?

[Grayseven]

And the in-game issue is what? Broken quest? Broken item? Can't log in to a character?

 

Or someone hurt someone's feelings? Or someone lied? Oh noes! That's a GAME ISSUE! Quick! Get all of customer service on that straight away! Can't have people lying to people in a game on the internet! Whatever would the world come to if we let that go unchecked?

 

Grow up.

 

Another fine example of ignorance. For wanting to tell someone to grow up so much, you sure come across as juvenile in your responses. Of course, with your forum name, I shouldn't expect coherence or intelligent discourse.

 

The in game issue is theft. If EA/BW does nothing to curtail bad behavior by bad players, the behavior will not only continue, it will get worse. Doing nothing is the same as condoning the behavior.

 

Keep ignoring the simple fact that someone did something wrong and the OP simply wants EA/BW to do their job to ensure it doesn't keep happening.

[branmakmuffin]

The in game issue is theft. If EA/BW does nothing to curtail bad behavior by bad players, the behavior will not only continue, it will get worse. Doing nothing is the same as condoning the behavior.

 

Keep ignoring the simple fact that someone did something wrong and the OP simply wants EA/BW to do their job to ensure it doesn't keep happening.

That's a guild's job, not BWEA's.

[Grayseven]

And if that were true in the OP's case, that would make his actions even more unfathomable: "I'm gonna give this person I only know on the internet access to stuff I've paid real $ for."

 

 

Clearly you do not know or work with police officers. If you report your $10 MP3 players stolen, they are not going to give it the same attention as your car being stolen.

 

 

When I use it, I'll let you know.

 

 

Hacks are not even remotely the same thing as this. The OP did it to himself, as DarthTHC and others have pointed out more than once.

 

You keep using hyperbole, so I'm guessing that hyperbole doesn't mean what you think it means.

 

The fact that the OP goofed up does not excuse BW/EA from investigating the deceptive actions of another player. That player is bad for the community as a whole and his actions should not be condoned but should instead be punished...if for no other reason than as a lesson to anyone else who may have the same idea.

 

Anything that is bad for the game needs to be dealt with, be it a hack, an exploit or some little filth who uses deception to steal from others.

 

If someone offers to make an item for you, then takes your expensive and hard to get mats and credits and doesn't give you the item in return, is it your fault or his?

[DarthTHC]

Another fine example of ignorance. For wanting to tell someone to grow up so much, you sure come across as juvenile in your responses. Of course, with your forum name, I shouldn't expect coherence or intelligent discourse.

 

The in game issue is theft. If EA/BW does nothing to curtail bad behavior by bad players, the behavior will not only continue, it will get worse. Doing nothing is the same as condoning the behavior.

 

Keep ignoring the simple fact that someone did something wrong and the OP simply wants EA/BW to do their job to ensure it doesn't keep happening.

 

The in game issue is NOT theft. The player who emptied out the guild bank had full rights granted to him by guild leadership to withdraw from the guild bank.

 

The nearest thing there is to an "issue" is the deception the person who emptied the guild bank used to gain access to the guild bank. However, that deception is so easily mitigated by asking him to log into his main before granting access that this episode becomes absolutely laughable.

 

Someone absolutely did something wrong. I've never denied that. I just deny that it's BWEA's job to police that particular issue - deception.

 

How about you stop ignoring the fact that the OP could have asked for one simple action from the "alt" - LOG IN YOUR MAIN - and that would have prevented this whole thing?

 

If you or anyone wants to ensure this doesn't keep happening, THAT is the answer, not asking BWEA to police "he said / she said" all day.

 

We each need to take a reasonable responsibility for our own actions. In this case, the simplest of measures was not taken. That doesn't make the matter BWEA's problem. It makes this a learning experience for the OP and for all who might have thought to simply "trust an alt". Ask them to log in their main. Problem solved.

Edited May 29, 2013 by DarthTHC

[MollyDresden]

Perhaps it looks naive in hindsight, but how many guilds out there have such a strict policy for tagging alts that they require you to get online from someone who is already in the guild and use that insider's character to say something like "Hey, I started a new toon. Here's his name. I'm switching to him now, please tag him."?

 

That's exactly the way it's been for all the guilds I've been in, including other games. I'm a casual gamer, so I tend to be in casual guilds, too. It's a pretty standard policy, as far as I can tell. And it's not like people can get offended, if it's policy. Although, really, it's common sense enough that it doesn't need to be an official policy.

[branmakmuffin]

You keep using hyperbole, so I'm guessing that hyperbole doesn't mean what you think it means.

If that helps you sleep at night, go for it.

 

The fact that the OP goofed up does not excuse BW/EA from investigating the deceptive actions of another player. That player is bad for the community as a whole and his actions should not be condoned but should instead be punished...if for no other reason than as a lesson to anyone else who may have the same idea.

Did the "bad guy" pretend to be a BWEA employee? We do know that's a violation of the EULA or the ToS or whatever. Otherwise, as DartTHC keeps saying, what game violation did the guy commit? Lying to another player? Taking stuff someone gave him access to?

 

Anything that is bad for the game needs to be dealt with, be it a hack, an exploit or some little filth who uses deception to steal from others.

There you go again, apples and oranges. This is nothing like a hack or an exploit.

 

If someone offers to make an item for you, then takes your expensive and hard to get mats and credits and doesn't give you the item in return, is it your fault or his?

Mine, because I know the game gives me no recourse if that happens. As DarthTHC also noted, there's no in-game "police" to investigate in-game "crime."

[Khevar]

...

 

Degree doesn't matter except in sentencing. Police will investigate theft and attempt to catch the bad guys just as they will investigate murder. One may have priority over the other, but they will both get investigated.

 

...

You also need to know the difference between a THEFT and a CON.

 

And unfortunately, there are methods of running a CON that do not technically violate actual statutes and cannot be successfully prosecuted. I'll give you a real-life example:

 

My brother in law called me one night, asking for advice. He had signed up for some kind of lottery, and he was just notified that he won $20,000, but had to send $500 to get the money through customs. Seeing as how the "customs agent" on the phone was talking to him at 7:00pm, and civil servants are not known for working voluntary overtime, I told him it was a scam and to call the real customs office when they opened in the morning.

 

Customs confirmed it was a scam, and explained that they knew who this guy was and were unable to charge him with a crime. It had to do with him not putting anything in writing, and by phone soliciting for the money across the border, bla bla bla (I won't bore with the technical details). But this con man had made over half a million scamming people over the past year, and hadn't yet been shut down.

 

The guild "thief" is a con man. Review your EULA. It is very possible that he isn't breaking the letter of the "law" and may not be able to be "prosecuted" for it. A "con" is not the same as a "theft".

Edited May 29, 2013 by Khevar

[Grayseven]

The in game issue is NOT theft. The player who emptied out the guild bank had full rights granted to him by guild leadership to withdraw from the guild bank.

 

The nearest thing there is to an "issue" is the deception the person who emptied the guild bank used to gain access to the guild bank. However, that deception is so easily mitigated by asking him to log into his main before granting access that this episode becomes absolutely laughable.

 

Someone absolutely did something wrong. I've never denied that. I just deny that it's BWEA's job to police that particular issue - deception.

 

How about you stop ignoring the fact that the OP could have asked for one simple action from the "alt" - LOG IN YOUR MAIN - and that would have prevented this whole thing?

 

If you or anyone wants to ensure this doesn't keep happening, THAT is the answer, not asking BWEA to police "he said / she said" all day.

 

We each need to take a reasonable responsibility for our own actions. In this case, the simplest of measures was not taken. That doesn't make the matter BWEA's problem. It makes this a learning experience for the OP and for all who might have thought to simply "trust an alt". Ask them to log in their main. Problem solved.

 

At no point have I disputed the fact that the OP screwed up. That still does not excuse the actions of the thief.

 

Theft by deception is still theft. It is not too much to expect EA/BW to look into the issue and take action against the thief, especially since it appears that this isn't a one time thing but part of a pattern of behavior by the thief. Not everyone has loads of experience with MMO's and this thief is preying on players that EA/BW and every other MMO maker out there should be trying to make happy...new people.

 

The internet is a cesspit. The anonymity allows people to act in ways they would never think of acting in the real world. But not everyone knows this. Some people still see the world as a nice place and it takes a few mistakes for them to realize that no one on the internet can be trusted. But just because a lot of us do know this does not mean that EA/BW does not have a responsibility to police their games.

[DarthTHC]

At no point have I disputed the fact that the OP screwed up. That still does not excuse the actions of the thief.

 

Theft by deception is still theft. It is not too much to expect EA/BW to look into the issue and take action against the thief, especially since it appears that this isn't a one time thing but part of a pattern of behavior by the thief. Not everyone has loads of experience with MMO's and this thief is preying on players that EA/BW and every other MMO maker out there should be trying to make happy...new people.

 

The internet is a cesspit. The anonymity allows people to act in ways they would never think of acting in the real world. But not everyone knows this. Some people still see the world as a nice place and it takes a few mistakes for them to realize that no one on the internet can be trusted. But just because a lot of us do know this does not mean that EA/BW does not have a responsibility to police their games.

 

There is nothing for BWEA to police in this incident.

 

If you want to crusade, crusade to make people who are new to MMOs aware of the basic things they can do to protect themselves from scammers.

[branmakmuffin]

At no point have I disputed the fact that the OP screwed up. That still does not excuse the actions of the thief.

 

Theft by deception is still theft.

True, but as DarthTHC pointed out, it's not theft. The "thief" was given access to the guild vault.

 

It is not too much to expect EA/BW to look into the issue and take action against the thief

Why and for what? Hurting someone's feelings?

 

The internet is a cesspit. The anonymity allows people to act in ways they would never think of acting in the real world. But not everyone knows this. Some people still see the world as a nice place and it takes a few mistakes for them to realize that no one on the internet can be trusted. But just because a lot of us do know this does not mean that EA/BW does not have a responsibility to police their games.

Do you see the possibility for abuse, here? I make a guild with a vault. I put stuff in it. My buddy makes a throwaway account through a proxy server. I give that account access to the vault. My buddy "steals" all the goods and distributes them or sells them on the GTN and distributes the proceeds. Then he deletes the account. I go crying to BWEA I was ripped off and can they please replace my stuff.

[Grayseven]

There is nothing for BWEA to police in this incident.

 

If you want to crusade, crusade to make people who are new to MMOs aware of the basic things they can do to protect themselves from scammers.

 

If it isn't the responsibility of MMO makers to police things detrimental to their games, then they are going to lose customers.

 

Players have the right to expect a good game experience, and they have a right to expect that things that reduce or eliminate that good experience get dealt with. Trying to excuse EA/BW for not doing something about a player ruining the game for others isn't much better than what the thief did as far as I'm concerned. Players also have the right to take their money elsewhere, and a bad experience is more apt to cause them to do just that...also detrimental to the game as a whole.

 

If players do not take a stand and voice their expectations, or worse try to condone behavior detrimental to the game and place the blame on the victim (regardless of the mistakes the victim made), then they are just encouraging EA/BW to continue to ignore these detrimental actions. No matter how minor some may think it is, it is still wrong and needs to be addressed by EA/BW instead of being ignored.

[branmakmuffin]

If it isn't the responsibility of MMO makers to police things detrimental to their games, then they are going to lose customers

And what is a game company supposed to do when the detrimental thing is that someone got his feelings hurt?

[Kilora]

If it isn't the responsibility of MMO makers to police things detrimental to their games, then they are going to lose customers.

 

Players have the right to expect a good game experience, and they have a right to expect that things that reduce or eliminate that good experience get dealt with. Trying to excuse EA/BW for not doing something about a player ruining the game for others isn't much better than what the thief did as far as I'm concerned. Players also have the right to take their money elsewhere, and a bad experience is more apt to cause them to do just that...also detrimental to the game as a whole.

 

If players do not take a stand and voice their expectations, or worse try to condone behavior detrimental to the game and place the blame on the victim (regardless of the mistakes the victim made), then they are just encouraging EA/BW to continue to ignore these detrimental actions. No matter how minor some may think it is, it is still wrong and needs to be addressed by EA/BW instead of being ignored.

 

I take it you've never played an MMO before? I've yet to see any other games handle a problem like this.

 

This is something that falls on the community to handle. And for good reason -- WE, as a community, decide what is OK and what isn't. Like, Need vs Greed for companions or offspecs. Considering how RARE a situation like this is, I expect the community is doing an excellent job.

 

It doesn't matter what you say, and you need to realize arguing in circles isn't going to change anything. Many of us don't think it is BW/EAs responsibility -- and clearly BW/EA and every other game developer feels the same way. They aren't going to treat OP any differently than the rest of the players, and this isn't something they will touch. End of story.

[Grayseven]

True, but as DarthTHC pointed out, it's not theft. The "thief" was given access to the guild vault.

 

 

Why and for what? Hurting someone's feelings?

 

 

Do you see the possibility for abuse, here? I make a guild with a vault. I put stuff in it. My buddy makes a throwaway account through a proxy server. I give that account access to the vault. My buddy "steals" all the goods and distributes them or sells them on the GTN and distributes the proceeds. Then he deletes the account. I go crying to BWEA I was ripped off and can they please replace my stuff.

 

At what point did I say that the items should be replaced? At best, if the account is still active, the goods remaining should be transferred back to the OP.

 

And even something as you have described can be investigated and discovered and it would be YOUR account that would get banned for deceptive action. Especially considering that the time between the theft and report of the theft would probably be a bit long if you are trying to sell stuff on the GTN. And that they could trace the credit transfers to a point that they would see you suddenly get an influx of credits? Not a good example.

[GreenLantern]

It's pretty easy to have someone hop into your VoIP to confirm their identity before tagging them as an alt. It's a standing rule in my guild.

[branmakmuffin]

And even something as you have described can be investigated and discovered and it would be YOUR account that would get banned for deceptive action.

I agree. Because the situation I described would be an exploit. Unlike the OP's situation.

 

You have yet to answer why you think the "thief's" actions are a violation of game policies or rules, other than just being bad form.

 

GreenLantern, you're a super-hero. Fix this.

Edited May 29, 2013 by branmakmuffin

[Grayseven]

I take it you've never played an MMO before? I've yet to see any other games handle a problem like this.

 

This is something that falls on the community to handle. And for good reason -- WE, as a community, decide what is OK and what isn't. Like, Need vs Greed for companions or offspecs. Considering how RARE a situation like this is, I expect the community is doing an excellent job.

 

It doesn't matter what you say, and you need to realize arguing in circles isn't going to change anything. Many of us don't think it is BW/EAs responsibility -- and clearly BW/EA and every other game developer feels the same way. They aren't going to treat OP any differently than the rest of the players, and this isn't something they will touch. End of story.

 

I've been playing MMO's since the launch of UO. I have seen action taken by Blizzard in WoW, SOE in SWG, EQ and EQ2 (just to name a few) for theft just like this...in WoW it occurred in our guild albeit under slightly different circumstances.

 

The community has no power. In fact, it is against the rules of the forum to even name the player so that everyone knows to avoid them, so how is the community supposed to take care of this issue, exactly? The community does nothing except to actually condone this type of behavior based on some of the responses I've seen here.

 

I'd like to continue this, but it is time to earn a living and in fact it seems pointless to wrestle with ignorance on the internet.

 

Wrong is wrong, and condoning wrong behavior is just as wrong.

[branmakmuffin]

I've been playing MMO's since the launch of UO. I have seen action taken by Blizzard in WoW, SOE in SWG, EQ and EQ2 (just to name a few) for theft just like this...in WoW it occurred in our guild albeit under slightly different circumstances.

I bet it was under extremely different circumstances (i.e., an actual hack, exploit or someone pretending to be a company employee).

 

Or ...

 

... screen shot or it didn't happen.

 

You know full well why "name and shame" ist verboten.

Edited May 29, 2013 by branmakmuffin

[canuckly]

like many have said already this falls squarely on the guild leaders if you give that much permission to empty a bank then you deserve it

 

now the guild im in the highest rank you can get without becoming a manager or leader your able to take out 5 items per a week and only on certain tabs

 

guild managers people that we all know in game and talk to can take out 100 items guild leaders can take out 1000 items

 

never had a theft problem because unlike some people running their guilds we actually pay attention and manage how much can be taken out of our bank

[Kilora]

I've been playing MMO's since the launch of UO. I have seen action taken by Blizzard in WoW, SOE in SWG, EQ and EQ2 (just to name a few) for theft just like this...in WoW it occurred in our guild albeit under slightly different circumstances.

 

The community has no power. In fact, it is against the rules of the forum to even name the player so that everyone knows to avoid them, so how is the community supposed to take care of this issue, exactly? The community does nothing except to actually condone this type of behavior based on some of the responses I've seen here.

 

I'd like to continue this, but it is time to earn a living and in fact it seems pointless to wrestle with ignorance on the internet.

 

Wrong is wrong, and condoning wrong behavior is just as wrong.

 

Sorry, you're just as ignorant as anyone else on here.

 

You have an opinion. Others disagree. You're insulting people instead of agreeing to disagree.

 

I've never seen Blizzard take action. I played WoW from Beta to 4.3, FFXI for 6 years, EQ, and EQ2. I've NEVER seen or heard of any of those games taking action in a case like this. If you have, I'm surprised, but it doesn't really matter because we're both always going to be truthful, right?

 

Thank you, though, for agreeing that you're wasting your time arguing in circles. It doesn't matter what you think, or what OP thinks. BW/EA doesn't actively action players for being morally reprehensible. They action people for breaking the ToS or EUALA. The community handles the rest -- through discussion in-game, usually. It is NOT against the ToS or EUALA to warn people of others in-game. That is solely against the forum rules. Many servers and guilds have blacklists. We've never had to use one, because we've never encountered any issues. Why? We use our brains and take proper precautionary measures.

 

Ontop of that, no one has condoned the behavior. The anger from us comes at the whining of the OP, and the ******** stance he is projecting onto BW. We've also explained how to prevent this from happening in the future.

Edited May 29, 2013 by Kilora

[Miskenzar]

Really? You give someone access to your valuables and do not expect them to take it??? Then when you made that mistake, you expect BW to give you your stuff back??

 

WOW

 

What a bunch of nonsense.

[canuckly]

I've been playing MMO's since the launch of UO. I have seen action taken by Blizzard in WoW, SOE in SWG, EQ and EQ2 (just to name a few) for theft just like this...in WoW it occurred in our guild albeit under slightly different circumstances.

 

The community has no power. In fact, it is against the rules of the forum to even name the player so that everyone knows to avoid them, so how is the community supposed to take care of this issue, exactly? The community does nothing except to actually condone this type of behavior based on some of the responses I've seen here.

 

I'd like to continue this, but it is time to earn a living and in fact it seems pointless to wrestle with ignorance on the internet.

 

Wrong is wrong, and condoning wrong behavior is just as wrong.

 

 

the community has a ton of power its called managing your guild bank properly and putting restrictions in place so stuff like this doesn't happen i don't exactly see a full page of threads complaining about guild thief because its a rare occurrence i actually can't remember the last time i saw a thread about a guild thief

[HelinCarnate]

They didn't. The thief convinced them that this was a new alt of someone already in the guild. He'd seen enough people with our tag that he could drop names casually enough to sound like he was who he said he is. Perhaps it looks naive in hindsight, but how many guilds out there have such a strict policy for tagging alts that they require you to get online from someone who is already in the guild and use that insider's character to say something like "Hey, I started a new toon. Here's his name. I'm switching to him now, please tag him."? We're not some big raiding guild -- we're a small group of friends. And when you get a /whisper from someone who claims to be one of those friends, how many of you out there say "Prove it"?

 

Besides, I am not blaming BioWare, as just about every response so far says I am. I'm the guild leader, I'll accept the responsibility. But I am saying that by taking no action, BioWare approves of this sort of behavior.

 

Live and learn. Only allow mains access.

[SithKoriandr]

I've been playing MMO's since the launch of UO. I have seen action taken by Blizzard in WoW, SOE in SWG, EQ and EQ2 (just to name a few) for theft just like this...in WoW it occurred in our guild albeit under slightly different circumstances.

 

The community has no power. In fact, it is against the rules of the forum to even name the player so that everyone knows to avoid them, so how is the community supposed to take care of this issue, exactly? The community does nothing except to actually condone this type of behavior based on some of the responses I've seen here.

 

I'd like to continue this, but it is time to earn a living and in fact it seems pointless to wrestle with ignorance on the internet.

 

Wrong is wrong, and condoning wrong behavior is just as wrong.

 

Just because someone says its the guild leaders fault, does not mean anyone condones what the guild member did.

 

I don't click NEED on every item, but if someone thinks they NEED it, I don't go blaming the system. This was the guild leaders fault for not double checking.

[branmakmuffin]

Just because someone says its the guild leaders fault, does not mean anyone condones what the guild member did.

Exactly. I certainly don't say "Well, the guild leader deserved this to happen to him."