Scoundrel/Operative Roll

[Kontraz]

A talent for sage healers:

"Egress: Force speed has a 100% chance to grant egress, removing all movement-impairing effects and granting immunity to all movement-impairing effects for the duration."

 

That's immunity to roots and snares at least, as far as I know. So, unless I can dirty kick them (4m range) before they even move or flashbang them before they move away from 10m range (30m range is for snipers and gunslingers only), they have a free 40m run.

 

Not to mention that as far as I know, middle tree of ops/scoundrels really suggests you should keep a DoT on target (since flying fists/whatever operative version is called will give you upper hand/tactical advantage when it hits a bleeding target) and the right-most talent tree seems to be pretty heavy in DoTs, too. So, it wouldn't be free 8 seconds even though you would have a 30m range like slingers or snipers, since the DoT target pretty likely has would break the mezz.

 

If combat stealth is supposed to be used as a gap closer, then it's ridiculous that operative gap closer has 1 minute 30 seconds cd. Give that a 30 second cd and I'm happy to give away my scamper.

 

PTs (who are melee, despite the argument they have a few ranged attacks - so does every melee class) have ONE gap closer on a 45 second cooldown (can be specced to 35).

 

If you want to claim sage force speed on healers grants movement impairment immunity, then you have to classify it as a 15 second cooldown. Impossible to have both.

 

The reason combat stealth can't have a 30 second cooldown is because, while a gap closer, it is also effectively a defensive maneuver, just like scamper.

 

The point of the flashbang (still doable at 10 meters, catch them before they get 40 meters away) is not mez them outright if you have a dot, but to prevent them from getting the full distance. The ability will prematurely end their force speed.

 

When coming out of stealth with a standard operative rotation, you should really put a lot of hurt on whomever you are opening on. If you are able to stay with them step by step through any escape abilities, then what is the point of even having escape abilities?

[Kontraz]

This is a problem and should be fixed, scamper shouldn't be a teleport. Right now, you have a small time at the end of scamper before you can move, maybe they could make it that you can move instantly when that animation ends but it takes a little longer to roll.

 

If they were to remove the teleport and make it a speed burst (500% for all I care) for 1 second (or whatever, make the distance roughly the same as it is now in 1GCD) then this would eliminate a lot of contempt for the ability. As stated, right now a vanguard outright cannot use a gap closer on a scampering opponent, and I would imagine that Force Leap and Force Pull (the tanksin technique, I don't recall the exact name) are facing the same problem

[Astarica]

Pretty sure you can't get the talent to reduce Force Speed to 15s CD (high up in lightning tree) if you've the talent for Force Speed granting movement impairment immunity (relatively high up in healer tree) so it's either 20s CD with immunity or 15s without.

 

The biggest problem is that using a grapple/charge ability on roll disorients the attacker, not the defender. Normally it's the other way around, as grapple/charge on someone with Force Speed usually disorients the defender (because they're no longer moving the way they expect to). In the case of Scamper, the defender is unaffected while the attacker is often confused wondering why did the defender magically teleport away from his ability.

Edited May 30, 2013 by Astarica

[Seireeni]

PTs (who are melee, despite the argument they have a few ranged attacks - so does every melee class) have ONE gap closer on a 45 second cooldown (can be specced to 35).

 

If you want to claim sage force speed on healers grants movement impairment immunity, then you have to classify it as a 15 second cooldown. Impossible to have both.

 

The reason combat stealth can't have a 30 second cooldown is because, while a gap closer, it is also effectively a defensive maneuver, just like scamper.

 

The point of the flashbang (still doable at 10 meters, catch them before they get 40 meters away) is not mez them outright if you have a dot, but to prevent them from getting the full distance. The ability will prematurely end their force speed.

 

When coming out of stealth with a standard operative rotation, you should really put a lot of hurt on whomever you are opening on. If you are able to stay with them step by step through any escape abilities, then what is the point of even having escape abilities?

 

That 15 second actually came from my unsufficent math (sorry, I haven't slept enough), it should be 10+ to get to melee range with scamper if the ability has 5 second cd (scamper + cd + scamper + cd +scamper) and I somehow managed to think that you'd have to wait the cd at the start, too. So, that's my bad, which made you misunderstand my post I guess.

 

But yeah, nowadays vanguards have the worst gap closer. Used to be operatives, now it's them. Not very nice, maybe, feel free to whine about it if you want. Though that 35s cd sounds a lot better than 1 minute 30 seconds cd.

 

And scamper and combat stealth are not the only gap closers that can also be used as an escape ability - that can be done with pretty much any decent speedboost.

 

You personally mentioned that

Alternatively, use scamper followed by flash bang. Now you have 8 additional seconds to close the gap.

I pointed out that pretty often, you don't. But sure, if you have so fast reflexes that you can flashbang before the sorc can move 6-10 every time and don't kill more than 1 enemy every minute and never have your escaping sorc in full resolve (can't remember right now if scrapper opening fills the resolve or almost fills, have been playing with commando lately), sure, flashbang them. I personally have problems at numbers 2 and 3, and occasionally even 1.

 

But hey, why should sorcs have force speed anyway, shadows have it also and it makes the escape ability completely useless.

[Cretinus]

Scoundrel/operative will be nerfed sooner or later. My guess would be that it will come rather sooner than later. They're so obviously game-balance breaking, not only because of the roll, but specially as infinite-resources-instant-healers-with-stealth-and-a-license-to-be-immune-against-everything that it's sort of ridiculous when people come here to defend these classes.

 

Helas, meanwhile I see people quitting WZs with a comment that it's pointless and a waste of time to fight a team with a couple of cross-healing operatives.

 

The other day, I was in a team with an operative who won Voidstar on his own with stealth 'n' roll. This was so ridiculously uber that even the own team gave him some flames.

Edited May 30, 2013 by Cretinus

[Syberduh]

PTs (who are melee, despite the argument they have a few ranged attacks - so does every melee class) have ONE gap closer on a 45 second cooldown (can be specced to 35).

 

Grapple and hydraulic overrides = 2.

[meffordjustin]

First time I've seen these roll abilities was very recently as my lvl 40 operative during a huttball match. All I know is I definitely saw the scoundrel/operative roll 3x with little pause between. It does cover a great distance, and seemed unstoppable. HOWEVER, I do admit this was also when my team was obviously not up to par.

After reading I see everyone's suggesting snare or slow. I thought of that one w/o anyone mentioning that. Maybe I'm not the most reactive, but by the time I realize they're rolling and I need to use either Sever Tendon (10m) or Flashbang (30m), the other operative/scoundrel has already rolled 2x (24m). If I'm not right on them there's no way for me to flashbang before they're completely out of range. The ability is OP in huttball, they don't need the energy they lost from rolling when they're out of range.

For those that believe operative's have no survivability w/o roll, they're not supposed to. I've played both Concealment and Lethality. If I don't open from stealth in Concealment tree, I'll likely die to hardier classes. But you spec concealment specifically to open from stealth. If I don't start off my poisons first in Lethality, I don't get my bang for the buck, and I'll likely die (but I do make good use of poisons so I'm fine). They both do crazy damage. I haven't got the roll ability and I'm doing just fine w/o it, often doing top dps and doing a great job killing healers and working towards the objectives. Those that complain survivability can get the Shield Probe skills (works wonders). Point is, I'm not new to the game, I've thought both sides of it. I probably won't complain once I get the ability at lvl 51, so I'll say it now: the roll could some tweaks. Sorry 'bout the length of this post (wanted put my opinion out).

[MidichIorian]

HOWEVER, I do admit this was also when my team was obviously not up to par.

That is a highly contributing factor. If you take an average scoundrel/operative and put him on an average pug team he will probably not be a problem, or atleast not gamebreaking. Hell, I've seen plenty who arent even using the ability at the start of a Huttball game.

 

The problem is when you put one with some form of clue, doesnt even have to be considered particulary good, in a premade. And let's be honest here, most premades have one if there's one available, give or take goof games where they bring four smashers or concealment.

 

I don't know if anyone els has noticed ( I hope you have because if you havent you're morons) but every problem in this game hails from team imbalance due to the lack of a matchmaking system. Premades alone arent the problem but they're making it worse and the fact that many, if not most, premades are utilizing the best classes is just icing on the cake.

 

Hence, if they had implemented some form of ratings for normals we wouldnt have had all these issues and the game would have been ten times more balanced. OP heals wouldnt be as "OP" because the good OP healers would be facing people who actually had a clue on how to counter it. Same with smash waves, scamper etc. The baddies could spend every game node trading while people with some grasp of what a proper game plan is wouldnt get a headache all the time. It would be more fun for everyone. This is also the reason to why I consider Halo 2 to be the best shooter of all times. You would spend 10-20 skill levels, levels you could progress through fast, dealing with idiots and then they'd be gone. Sure, there was still the risk of ending up with sub par players but it was significally reduced and it wasnt to the point that you had to question if it was their first game. In swtor you'll come across lvl 55 players who don't know how to throw the huttball...and these are expected to counter abilties where you have to be some what coordinated and act fast.

Edited July 1, 2013 by MidichIorian

[KamujinKravshera]

Scoundrel / OP heals have consistently been overpowered since 1.2. Why? My guess is that it's a little reward for not having a glow stick in a star wars game.

 

No one is stopping you from playing one, so go have some fun and accept this fact. It's not going to change.

 

TLDR;

Sage gets a lightsaber

Commando gets a giant gun

Scoundrel gets to be a little overpowered.

[JouerTue]

i think i suffer much more predation premades in huttball than a single OP , who will be soon alone..the real problem are the bads filling his resolve at mid.

 

in the other WZs they have no significative advantage imo..nowadays you send always someone at their node to delay cap, due to the op heals and stalemate at mid.

[Haystak]

Typing this from a phone so I apologize for any errors.

 

For one thing you are instantly snared when yoh have the huttball. We aren't rolling across the map with it.

 

Also if you haven't noticed most games of huttball when played on a high level of play is not determined by who can kill the ball carrier wigh abilities but who can get there team to key spots on the map to recieve passes. The op roll is no more advantageous than hold the line, and doesn't even hold a candle to resilience/force speed, or double predation runs.

 

I'm just not seing the obvious advantage

[Kegparty]

Another one of these threads.. I can't even be bothered giving a good response anymore.

 

The ability is garbage. Seriously, if you can't stop them then you and your team need to go watch some guides or something.

No wonder PvP is the way it is, people like you with nothing better to do then complain about every class but your own clogging up the forums with these stupid posts.

 

I would gladly take a cooldown with the distance, no effect of slow and no resource cost. People are just dumb and don't realize you are out of resource after AND... they should be slowing everyone... all the time.... period...

 

Slow is the equivalent of protection and taunts... people just don't use them because they would have to press more than 3 keys.

Edited July 1, 2013 by Kegparty

[PerinnAybara]

I would gladly take a cooldown with the distance, no effect of slow and no resource cost. People are just dumb and don't realize you are out of resource after AND... they should be slowing everyone... all the time.... period...

 

Slow is the equivalent of protection and taunts... people just don't use them because they would have to press more than 3 keys.

 

Mercs love their on demand slow that is uncleansable by evasion (which procs due to roll) or their cleanse! Arsenal has a slow that's on a ranged attack. Yeah that's going to work on an operative rolling away from us with evasion popped.

 

Make it so operative healers can't roll, or make it so that they actually have resource problems.

 

As it is they have effectively the easiest resource management ever, as well as unlimited tactical advantage.

[Zunayson]

Scoundrel / OP heals have consistently been overpowered since 1.2. Why? My guess is that it's a little reward for not having a glow stick in a star wars game.

 

No one is stopping you from playing one, so go have some fun and accept this fact. It's not going to change.

 

TLDR;

Sage gets a lightsaber

Commando gets a giant gun

Scoundrel gets to be a little overpowered.

 

Well they were considered underpowered for all of until 1.2.... And their DPS was never looked at in ranked I think until about 2.0

 

I'm just not seing the obvious advantage

 

I've never lost a HB solely due to not getting the ball first because of a scouprative rolling. Does that make me good? Does that make him bad?

 

The roll is fine and baddies will cry.

Edited July 1, 2013 by Zunayson

[Kegparty]

Babies will cry especially if they don't realize the actual numbers involved or have ever used the ability. My ALT is an operative and once you have it you just laugh at all the bad players.

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=629303

[underjollyroger]

What I have been seeing so far: PuG vs PuG in the Hutt Ball warzone = the team with a rolling operative wins if the other team does not have one.

Just take a look at the "xxx left the warzone" messages after the first rolling score, seconds after the warzone starts.

[Monkfishysnow]

I think it should have a cooldown of around 8 seconds. Just like the snipers roll and the sorcs force speed both have a cooldown and can't go nearly as far as 5 rolls at 12 meters each or 6 meters each if snared. It creates an incredibly quick way to get around and of escaping fights. An unfairly fast and distancing way of escape.

 

But that's just my unbiased opinion, I actually have a level 55 Operative and I just laugh every time I roll around in and away from fights or to capping points.

Edited July 1, 2013 by Monkfishysnow

[Thaladan]

cooldown for this talent please. not necessary long (3-5 sec is enough)

 

too easy to tag in novare coast or to defend.

 

too easy in hutball

 

too easy in voidstar between the first door, the bridge and the second door.

 

too easy in hyperporte to tag or impeach to tag

 

and the new alderand (the delete of speeder in right and left tourelles) will be another advantage for rolling classes..

 

this ability cannot be countered (start of a wz or moment where you are invisible) no possibility to entrave the 12m roll to a 6m..

 

it's too powerfull in a pvp environment where the only strategy is to tag/defend a point and where mobility is a key to success.

Edited July 1, 2013 by Thaladan

[Racter]

People are still whining about this? Serious L2p issue.

[Grethore]

You can get 5 rolls as an operative with a full energy bar.

 

If you aren't snared you roll 12 meters/roll.

 

If you are snared you roll 6 meters/roll.

 

That really doesn't seem overpowered to me compared to some of the other movement skills other classes get...like Sorcs who can spec into being immune to CC effects while using their force speed.

 

Maybe you should try to learn how to more effectively and intelligently cc people to get around their abilities instead of crying about things on the forum.

 

 

For starters, an op/sc doesn't need to "spec" into anything to get this ability. Secondly, 1 12 meter roll is about equivalent to 1 sorc/sage force speed in distance and speed. Maybe two at most. Then, the CD starts for the sage/sorc. The op/sc can spam it 3 more times at least if timed right. Thirdly, you can't "slow" an op/sc at the beginning of a match. And the beginning is where the tone of the match is set.

 

Fourthly, rolling pretty much makes you untargetable as you can't really click on them, and tab targeting them doesn't work while they are rolling. These are mechanics that BW can fix though, and they need to be first before any assessment of the ability is done.

 

Point is, NO class should have an ability that gives an advantage that is so disproportionate to the other classes. An advantage is fine, but not to the extent that it becomes absurd. The fact is, NO other abilities compare fully to the roll. Some have a CD, others, range limits, while others require a targeted player to use. NO other ability can cover the distance that roll can while ALSO not requiring a targeted person to activate or have a range limit it can be used for. All the other speed abilities have drawbacks in how it is used, while the only drawback for an op/sc is after the fact, in having used it. THAT'S the difference.

 

But if people INSIST on there being no change to roll, then at least give every class a ranged snare with no cooldown. Then it'll be the rollers QQing on the forums. But then we can just say L2Cleanse it off or L2CC break or L2LOS. But hey, they are l33t players so their QQ must be more legitimate than anyone else's, right?

 

Fact is, there will always be a segment of gamers that will defend, promote and abuse any use of exploits, glitches, op abilities and cheats. And they will ALWAYS blame other players for not knowing how to play. They will always use the moniker of L2P. Just ignore them. Their opinions mean nothing because they are only around as long as there is a way to exploit/glitch/cheat. Once those are removed, they'll move on to the next game to exploit/abuse/cheat there.

[Kaerwolf]

Not this again...

 

The first person to tell me that a 30m leap that also interrupts is a same thing as 6/12m roll with high energy cost gets a free /facepalm. Yeah, wouldn't even be the first time.

 

I agree, the leap shouldnt interrupt but the hit should, problem is that the interrupt calculation is worked out Before the animtion forthe leap so it appears as if you are interrupted by the leap. Bad design, I know.

 

(I don't know why this forum puts captial letters on some Words where there shouldn't be one.)

[Cretinus]

TLDR;

Sage gets a lightsaber

Commando gets a giant gun

Scoundrel gets to be a little overpowered.

 

Scophealer's OPness is only in PvP and surely not intentional. Even if it was intentional, then surely not as a compensation for having less fashionable optics then other classes, how dumb would that be?

It's simply not trivial to balance them for PvP without breaking them in PvE. In any case, to believe that they will remain PvP gods forever is wishful thinking.

[Racter]

For starters, an op/sc doesn't need to "spec" into anything to get this ability. Secondly, 1 12 meter roll is about equivalent to 1 sorc/sage force speed in distance and speed. Maybe two at most. Then, the CD starts for the sage/sorc. The op/sc can spam it 3 more times at least if timed right. Thirdly, you can't "slow" an op/sc at the beginning of a match. And the beginning is where the tone of the match is set.

 

Fourthly, rolling pretty much makes you untargetable as you can't really click on them, and tab targeting them doesn't work while they are rolling. These are mechanics that BW can fix though, and they need to be first before any assessment of the ability is done.

 

Point is, NO class should have an ability that gives an advantage that is so disproportionate to the other classes. An advantage is fine, but not to the extent that it becomes absurd. The fact is, NO other abilities compare fully to the roll. Some have a CD, others, range limits, while others require a targeted player to use. NO other ability can cover the distance that roll can while ALSO not requiring a targeted person to activate or have a range limit it can be used for. All the other speed abilities have drawbacks in how it is used, while the only drawback for an op/sc is after the fact, in having used it. THAT'S the difference.

 

But if people INSIST on there being no change to roll, then at least give every class a ranged snare with no cooldown. Then it'll be the rollers QQing on the forums. But then we can just say L2Cleanse it off or L2CC break or L2LOS. But hey, they are l33t players so their QQ must be more legitimate than anyone else's, right?

 

Fact is, there will always be a segment of gamers that will defend, promote and abuse any use of exploits, glitches, op abilities and cheats. And they will ALWAYS blame other players for not knowing how to play. They will always use the moniker of L2P. Just ignore them. Their opinions mean nothing because they are only around as long as there is a way to exploit/glitch/cheat. Once those are removed, they'll move on to the next game to exploit/abuse/cheat there.

 

Tl;Dr I'm bad and can't adapt. You know what else fits all of your qq perfectly? Predation. Actually, as a matter of fact, double predations, made possible by the new carnage, take you exactly the same distance as a concealment operative (cheaper roll) spamming it with stim boost and using adrenal probe.

[Cryowolf]

Secondly, 1 12 meter roll is about equivalent to 1 sorc/sage force speed in distance and speed.

 

Sorry, come again?

 

Fourthly, rolling pretty much makes you untargetable as you can't really click on them, and tab targeting them doesn't work while they are rolling. These are mechanics that BW can fix though, and they need to be first before any assessment of the ability is done.

 

Completely agree with that, but fixing those mechanics are likely beyond the abilities/desires of the devs.

[Kegparty]

Force Speed (inquis) distance takes roughly 4.3 sec

Same distance using roll 6.2 sec

 

Force Speed = no resource

3 rolls = HUGE amount of resource

 

Do you guys just QQ over and over and not actually have a class to test it out? Did I miss something that somehow everyone else is just running across the entire map?

 

I like pvp going faster and if an op wants to roll let em. They are dead in the water after it. I'll test this later with predation but I am sure the time is going to be similar.

 

Edit:

Larger distance

Video 1 :

"Basically the video shows that Scamper allows Scoundrel's to cover 130m in 10 seconds... AND Combat sentinels can cover that same 130m in 12 seconds. So they are only 2 seconds slower... BUT they aren't starved for resources AND transcendence is a group buff, Scamper is not. So a Combat sentinel can take a whole group across 130m in 2 seconds longer than one Scoundrel can get there..."

 

Video 2 :

"To be fair and as unbiased as I could, I decided to test how good transcendence would be given the 30% boost combat spec can have. I went to the same location on Tatooine and did the 75m run like all the other tests. Transcendence with the extra 30% from Combat spec made the run in roughly 6.5 seconds. So again Scamper is faster... but by a very small margin." Group buff zero cost

 

Fun video before you rage like a qq