ETA on Advanced Class change?

[Ratajack]

Now it's just a matter of opinion, so really this is all...I vote yes. I vote no. And no meaningful discussion can happen.

 

What exactly does rerolling ACs hurt? Nothing. I have 8 ACs going now. I could have 1 of each AC, so it wouldn't matter if I switched ACs as I know all the ACs (since rep and empire are just mirrors of each other).

 

So, the reason not to, is really, what, "Learn to play your class?"

 

That's already said to people and they can't reroll their AC.

 

Allowing this would...

 

1) Make more players happy than upset.

 

2) Make TOR MORE MONEY which judging by the various dye threads and datacube threads makes many players happy.

 

3) Hurts no one.

 

I say we just remember #2...TOR GETS MORE MONEY!

 

Let's start off by being honest and not trying to stretch a truth in order to fit your desire for class changes. You may have one of each mirror AC. You do not have one of each AC as there are 16 AC's.

 

Even if you have one of each mirror AC or even one of each AC, not everyone who wants to change their class does. Allowing you to change your class would allow that person who has only ever played a smash monkey to change his class to juggernaut and make people's game play miserable as he fumbles about trying to gear and tank when he has never tanked before.

 

Sometimes that one person who may be over qualified to do something can't be allowed to do it in order to protect people from those that aren't qualified.

[LordArtemis]

As has been said before, just to ring in again, AC can be looked at a unique class...Bioware has publicly stated they look at them like classes (perhaps they didn't say directly they ARE classes but they came pretty close) and have said nothing to the contrary, to my knowledge, up to this point.

 

It is possible the current dev team looks at ACs differently, Ill concede that. The only thing we have heard, to my knowledge, is a dev from the current staff saying they have been involved in serious talks about offering AC change and they expect it will happen eventually...I'm paraphrasing, but the exact quotes were posted.

 

I don't think the point of them being classes or not really effects the discussion though. I personally would like the choice to have MORE meaning, not less...right now I think the choice does not have as much meaning as it should.

 

But I still think the real issue is whether or not offering an AC change would hurt or help the game. After all, the ultimate goal should be, IMO, to make the game more appealing to a wider audience.

 

I hope that one of those things is not AC change, but will begrudgingly accept such a change if it is what is best for the game overall. Personally I'm not convinced...yet.

[Jeweledleah]

As we have provided logical arguments and dev statements as to why they are different classes.

 

you have provided an old quote that doesn't definitively say that they are distinct separate classes, but rather that they are distinctly different playstyle designs. the only thing supports your desire to keep it as is is the fact that its AT THIS TIME a permanent selection

 

we have provided a more recent quote that they are considering allowing the change as well as official class introduction page that is arranged by base class with no hint anywhere that advanced classes are a separate class, that class forums are arranged by class with separate subsections for AC, not as 16 different forums, not even split into sage/sorc or assassin/shadow (aka mirror advanced classes kept together), but rather kept organized by base class.

 

in game setup where character creation allows you to select from base classes, not advanced classes, the fact that throughout the game you are consistently referred to as your base class, not your advanced class, that you keep getting base class abilities that are used by both advanced classes throughout your leveling process, the fact that you don't have to select specialization at all and still be able to hit at least lvl 50 (at the time experiment was made - lvl 50 WAS the max level, but I have no doubt that some enterprising inquisitive individual will level to 55 as base class sooner or later), definitely finish your story.

 

so... is this a matter of opinion then, not a definitive fact the way you think it is? I think it might be.

 

while many of the concerns against allowing the change are valid and should be considered when making final decision, this doesn't mean that the change is most definitely a bad idea and should not be considered at all. and considering a quote from the developer, quote that started this thread in a first place? they think it should be considered as well.

[Ratajack]

you have provided an old quote that doesn't definitively say that they are distinct separate classes, but rather that they are distinctly different playstyle designs. the only thing supports your desire to keep it as is is the fact that its AT THIS TIME a permanent selection

 

we have provided a more recent quote that they are considering allowing the change as well as official class introduction page that is arranged by base class with no hint anywhere that advanced classes are a separate class, that class forums are arranged by class with separate subsections for AC, not as 16 different forums, not even split into sage/sorc or assassin/shadow (aka mirror advanced classes kept together), but rather kept organized by base class.

 

in game setup where character creation allows you to select from base classes, not advanced classes, the fact that throughout the game you are consistently referred to as your base class, not your advanced class, that you keep getting base class abilities that are used by both advanced classes throughout your leveling process, the fact that you don't have to select specialization at all and still be able to hit at least lvl 50 (at the time experiment was made - lvl 50 WAS the max level, but I have no doubt that some enterprising inquisitive individual will level to 55 as base class sooner or later), definitely finish your story.

 

so... is this a matter of opinion then, not a definitive fact the way you think it is? I think it might be.

 

while many of the concerns against allowing the change are valid and should be considered when making final decision, this doesn't mean that the change is most definitely a bad idea and should not be considered at all. and considering a quote from the developer, quote that started this thread in a first place? they think it should be considered as well.

 

That dev post happens to be the LATEST dev post to mention AC's as fundamentally different class designs. Even the more recent post which they mention the possibility of allowing AC changes did not in any way contradict their earlier statement or give any indication that they no longer saw the AC's as fundamentally different class designs.

 

We have pointed out the differences in class skills and play styles, such as assassin being a stealthy melee DPS/tank and sorcerer being a ranged DPS/heals. In fact that assassin in melee in all three specs, just like a rogue in WOW, and the sorcerer is ranged in all three specs, just like a priest in WOW.

 

In fact, is there any single class (AC) that allows to respec with in that class and go from ranged to melee or from melee to ranged? Is there any single class (AC) which would need to change their armor as a result of a respec?

 

Ranged vs melee and different armor types are almost always an indication of different classes.

 

Look at how the game lists your class. Look at your guild roster, do a /who, select a character. You will see assassins, sorcerers, powertechs, mercenaries, marauders, juggernauts, snipers and operatives on the imperial side if you look at classes. If the classes are inquisitor, warrior, bounty hunter and imperial agent, why are they not listed as such in your guild roster?

 

One more point, as has been asked before, if we chose AC at character creation, would this discussion even be happening?

[LordArtemis]

I do think that if we chose our AC at character creation this discussion would be moot. I think it was silly to design it this way in the first place...essentially making someone a Trooper/Commando/Combat Medic. I understand they did so to add variety, basically allowing 6 specializations inside two advanced roles per class. But it seems to me it caused some problems.

 

That is compounded by the fact that folks still get base class abilities and still have references in the game to that base class though you left that base class behind long ago.

 

I think they should come out and say, without any room for doubt, that AC IS A CLASS. Then, they should remove all references to base class from armor and the game post level 10, instead listing it with the advanced class names, move all base abilities under the advanced class frame in abilities and delete the base class header, and make the advanced class choice MANDATORY at level 10.

 

That would go a long way toward making the choice more meaningful IMO.

[Jeweledleah]

That dev post happens to be the LATEST dev post to mention AC's as fundamentally different class designs. Even the more recent post which they mention the possibility of allowing AC changes did not in any way contradict their earlier statement or give any indication that they no longer saw the AC's as fundamentally different class designs.

 

We have pointed out the differences in class skills and play styles, such as assassin being a stealthy melee DPS/tank and sorcerer being a ranged DPS/heals. In fact that assassin in melee in all three specs, just like a rogue in WOW, and the sorcerer is ranged in all three specs, just like a priest in WOW.

 

In fact, is there any single class (AC) that allows to respec with in that class and go from ranged to melee or from melee to ranged? Is there any single class (AC) which would need to change their armor as a result of a respec?

 

Ranged vs melee and different armor types are almost always an indication of different classes.

 

Look at how the game lists your class. Look at your guild roster, do a /who, select a character. You will see assassins, sorcerers, powertechs, mercenaries, marauders, juggernauts, snipers and operatives on the imperial side if you look at classes. If the classes are inquisitor, warrior, bounty hunter and imperial agent, why are they not listed as such in your guild roster?

 

One more point, as has been asked before, if we chose AC at character creation, would this discussion even be happening?

 

I have already made my distaste for comparing 2 different games as if one should be precedent for another - clear, but if you wish to go that way - druid. tank, healer, melee dps and ranged dps. using different mainstat no less. boomkin (ranged dps variety of a druid) plays extremely differently from kitty (melee dps) and yet - same class.

 

the only class in TOR that has different armor rating depending on specialization is warrior/knight. everyone else wears the same armor, uses the same main stat.

 

your specialization is shown, once you chose it, yes, but it doesn't remove the fact, that you are still your base class. different class designs, not different classes. you can interpret that statement in many ways. including the way I'm interpreting, that advance classes are fundamentally different playstyles, even while being the same class.

 

and yes, if we got to pick out our class at character creation, this conversation might not be happening in all likelihood. if developers didn't say they were considering allowing AC change, this conversation might not be happening. but we're talking about what ifs. my what ifs are as valid as your what ifs, and trying to dismiss them out of hand just keeps us in this circular loop.

 

learning a new play style is learning a new playstyle.

 

I think there's more benefits than drawbacks to allowing AC change (at least with my preferred mode of - at any level, with no xp penalty but only twice per character with one month cd per change). so I'd rather address the drawbacks constructively - as in, how can we minimize or even remove their impact. which is what I've been attempting to do in my conversation with Lord Artemis.

[LordArtemis]

I think there's more benefits than drawbacks to allowing AC change (at least with my preferred mode of - at any level, with no xp penalty but only twice per character with one month cd per change). so I'd rather address the drawbacks constructively - as in, how can we minimize or even remove their impact. which is what I've been attempting to do in my conversation with Lord Artemis.

 

I appreciate the dialog.

 

I was thinking about ways to prevent abuse of the system if it was open to all levels. What if it was limited to a finite number of changes per account? You could change any AC into another at any point, but at one point you would run out of uses. Perhaps that would discourage FOTM switching and forced switching from guilds and the like.

 

Perhaps an account maximum of 6 switches?

Edited June 23, 2013 by LordArtemis

[TridusSWTOR]

Shadow and sage are two different classes. Leveling a shadow to max level does NOT entitle you to play that character as a sage. You leveled as a shadow, not a sage.

 

They are two difference ADVANCED CLASSES, there is a difference between those two.

[MajikMyst]

I think a good enough reason is that people want to. .

 

I am sure people would want a god mode button.. Is that enough reason?? People wanting something is the basis for the discussion.. It has to be good for the game and Bioware's pocket book for it to happen..

[MajikMyst]

I read it too and saw that none existed. Everything below the "Other than your link, nobody else has said that chance to hit on with force as decreased.. So I will trust other websites.. You think and believe what you want.. " comment did not exist..

 

You are a liar and you know it.. It sucks to be proven wrong but it happens.. That post has always been there..

[Mindshard]

Honestly I think you should pick your AC at character creation and either it automatically happens behind the scenes at 10, or it starts right from lv1.

Sometimes I wish my merc was a PT, but then I remember in a single double XP weekend you can go from 1-55 and it becomes a non-issue.

[MajikMyst]

They are two difference ADVANCED CLASSES, there is a difference between those two.

 

There is a difference between an apple and an orange, yet both are fruits.. Your point being??

 

There is a difference between a shadow and a sage, yet both are consular.. Your point again was??

 

Shadow and sage are your classes.. There are 16 classes in the game.. Not 8 classes..

[MajikMyst]

Shadow DPS and Sage DPS need accuracy now, how can you not know this?

 

Learn to accept certain truths from posters. More often than not, they can educate you more than you can provide anything meaningful to them.

 

You are a troll.

 

I am not the troll here.. I am not the one lying about a post or claiming that someone edited a post because they aren't masture enough to just admit they missed it?? I am not childish enough to jump into a discussion that doesn't inolve me and lie about a post.. You want to see a troll?? Look at the people that fit those descriptions,.. You have to be pretty dang desperate to even accuse someone of editing a post.. I am in my 40's.. I have better things to do than to edit a post just to prove some internet wannabe wrong.. What about that really long posts where I addressed someone point by point.. Then in the very next post I was accused of not responding to their points?? Did I edit that post too?? Did I just magically make it appear out of no where to prove someone wrong?? You want to see a troll?? Go look in the mirror.. You aren't responding to anyone.. You are just a broken record saying the same thing over and over again.. If you can't support and qualify your views then you don't belong on a forum..

 

There is a large number of people that have made countless points, that the three of you have failed to respond to.. Instead resorting to lying and false accusations to do what ever you can to prove yourself right.. You will always be wrong when you use those tactics.. Seriously accusing someone of editing a post.. Now that is sad.. Desperate much??

 

I can see that the three of you are going to continue to troll this forum.. Do all you can to prevent serious discussion.. Make any attempt to insure the conversation is not productive.. You all don't want to have a serious debate.. If you did, you would read my posts and that of others.. Instead of parroting the same trash over and over again.. You would stop making childish accusations like editing a post.. Again?? What about the post where someone's points were addressed point by point.. Then I was accused of no responding to them and responding to their points?? Did I go back and edit that post because I knew I was going to be accused of not responding to their points?? If someone can miss a post of that size, (My points have not yet been responded to..) It makes sense that the smaller post was also missed.. It was not edited.. Some of us around here are adults.. Again you all need to stop trolling and grow up..

 

Let me know when you want to discuss this with the adults in an adult manner.. Otherwise keep doing what your doing..

Edited June 23, 2013 by MajikMyst

[MajikMyst]

Honestly I think you should pick your AC at character creation and either it automatically happens behind the scenes at 10, or it starts right from lv1.

Sometimes I wish my merc was a PT, but then I remember in a single double XP weekend you can go from 1-55 and it becomes a non-issue.

 

That point has brought up a lot.. I agree, we probably should choose our AC at level 0 or character creation.. I don't understand why in some people choosing it at level 10 makes a difference.. But apparently it does..

 

I also believe that this thread wouldn't exist if we did choose our AC at level 0..

[LordArtemis]

..

 

Shenanigans.

[Savej]

There is a difference between an apple and an orange, yet both are fruits.. Your point being??

 

There is a difference between a shadow and a sage, yet both are consular.. Your point again was??

 

Shadow and sage are your classes.. There are 16 classes in the game.. Not 8 classes..

 

There are eight classes (really four). There are sixteen "advanced classes" (really eight). As for "what is an advanced class vs a regular class?" - I don't think it matters. They've already announced that Advanced Class switching is probably coming (back during beta it was a hard "yes, you will be able to switch your advanced class" but lots of things were said way back then). They could retract adding it and if they do it will only be because of threads like these so full of hate and blind anger.

 

Why some players are vehemently opposed to this to the point of hurling insults and trolling this thread ad infinitum doesn't make any sense to me. I can understand forum arguments about balance or f2p crap or weak/buggy content or gfx or costume options even if I don't care about them. But this is such a non-issue it's not even funny? For those worried about getting stuck in a fp with an assassin tank that used to be a sorc dps... that's an invalid argument on so many levels and I frankly don't believe you if you say it is the main reason you are opposed to this. It's not p2w: you still have to level a character, plow through the story and get the gear. You don't suddenly have 2 characters. It's one step beyond spec resetting and it's very much in line with what is available in other games (including old muds, D&D, AC1, whatever - you name it).

 

Last note then I'm done with this thread: I've never heard of a game adding flexibility options for players losing subs and/or players because of it. I have seen angry posts in other forums and at least two grouchy youtube videos from people upset that they had to create and level a separate, second character (with identical stories/companions and very very similar mechanics) to switch between using 1 light saber and 2 light sabers.

[SithKoriandr]

Let's start off by being honest and not trying to stretch a truth in order to fit your desire for class changes. You may have one of each mirror AC. You do not have one of each AC as there are 16 AC's.

 

Even if you have one of each mirror AC or even one of each AC, not everyone who wants to change their class does. Allowing you to change your class would allow that person who has only ever played a smash monkey to change his class to juggernaut and make people's game play miserable as he fumbles about trying to gear and tank when he has never tanked before.

 

Sometimes that one person who may be over qualified to do something can't be allowed to do it in order to protect people from those that aren't qualified.

 

My Juggernaut was a smash monkey. So is my Guardian. Guess what! Different AC (Juggernaut and Guardian) same playstyles.

 

So, yes, one could roll up one of each class and know all the classes. So the "You won't know the (advance) class" argument fails, because they could.

 

I could've leveled a Sage and an Assassin. Since I leveled an Assassin, I could easily change my Sage to a Shadow and nothing would be different.

 

And yes, the reason for allowing this is because they went the CLASS > ADV CLASS route. They went that route, so let people change it. And the other reason, more money. So many against this, yet seem gung ho with the "If it gives TOR more money it's okay!" for everything else.

[Jeweledleah]

I appreciate the dialog.

 

I was thinking about ways to prevent abuse of the system if it was open to all levels. What if it was limited to a finite number of changes per account? You could change any AC into another at any point, but at one point you would run out of uses. Perhaps that would discourage FOTM switching and forced switching from guilds and the like.

 

Perhaps an account maximum of 6 switches?

 

same.

 

and that is a great idea iMO. it will still curb flash of the month abuse, AND give plenty of second (or third) chances.

 

on a different not - page with multiple post from ignored person looks very odd O_O yet pleasing.

[Ratajack]

I have already made my distaste for comparing 2 different games as if one should be precedent for another - clear, but if you wish to go that way - druid. tank, healer, melee dps and ranged dps. using different mainstat no less. boomkin (ranged dps variety of a druid) plays extremely differently from kitty (melee dps) and yet - same class.

 

the only class in TOR that has different armor rating depending on specialization is warrior/knight. everyone else wears the same armor, uses the same main stat.

 

your specialization is shown, once you chose it, yes, but it doesn't remove the fact, that you are still your base class. different class designs, not different classes. you can interpret that statement in many ways. including the way I'm interpreting, that advance classes are fundamentally different playstyles, even while being the same class.

 

and yes, if we got to pick out our class at character creation, this conversation might not be happening in all likelihood. if developers didn't say they were considering allowing AC change, this conversation might not be happening. but we're talking about what ifs. my what ifs are as valid as your what ifs, and trying to dismiss them out of hand just keeps us in this circular loop.

 

learning a new play style is learning a new playstyle.

 

I think there's more benefits than drawbacks to allowing AC change (at least with my preferred mode of - at any level, with no xp penalty but only twice per character with one month cd per change). so I'd rather address the drawbacks constructively - as in, how can we minimize or even remove their impact. which is what I've been attempting to do in my conversation with Lord Artemis.

 

I have indicated that there are two of LordArtemis' comprised list of suggestions which I find to be reasonable compromises, allowing those who have unique items no longer available in game to keep those items and still change their class. Those options would be 1 and 2. Both options would revert the character back to level 10, but that character would not lose any of the unique items they had acquired.

[Ratajack]

My Juggernaut was a smash monkey. So is my Guardian. Guess what! Different AC (Juggernaut and Guardian) same playstyles.

 

So, yes, one could roll up one of each class and know all the classes. So the "You won't know the (advance) class" argument fails, because they could.

 

I could've leveled a Sage and an Assassin. Since I leveled an Assassin, I could easily change my Sage to a Shadow and nothing would be different.

 

And yes, the reason for allowing this is because they went the CLASS > ADV CLASS route. They went that route, so let people change it. And the other reason, more money. So many against this, yet seem gung ho with the "If it gives TOR more money it's okay!" for everything else.

 

Based on the dev statement, you could just as easily say that they went STORY>CLASS with your class choice being made available at level 10.

 

Again, just because one person feels they may be qualified to change their class does not mean that everyone is.

[Asturias]

There are eight classes (really four). There are sixteen "advanced classes" (really eight). As for "what is an advanced class vs a regular class?" - I don't think it matters. They've already announced that Advanced Class switching is probably coming (back during beta it was a hard "yes, you will be able to switch your advanced class" but lots of things were said way back then). They could retract adding it and if they do it will only be because of threads like these so full of hate and blind anger.

 

Why some players are vehemently opposed to this to the point of hurling insults and trolling this thread ad infinitum doesn't make any sense to me. I can understand forum arguments about balance or f2p crap or weak/buggy content or gfx or costume options even if I don't care about them. But this is such a non-issue it's not even funny? For those worried about getting stuck in a fp with an assassin tank that used to be a sorc dps... that's an invalid argument on so many levels and I frankly don't believe you if you say it is the main reason you are opposed to this. It's not p2w: you still have to level a character, plow through the story and get the gear. You don't suddenly have 2 characters. It's one step beyond spec resetting and it's very much in line with what is available in other games (including old muds, D&D, AC1, whatever - you name it).

 

Last note then I'm done with this thread: I've never heard of a game adding flexibility options for players losing subs and/or players because of it. I have seen angry posts in other forums and at least two grouchy youtube videos from people upset that they had to create and level a separate, second character (with identical stories/companions and very very similar mechanics) to switch between using 1 light saber and 2 light sabers.

 

I think in terms of making a choice for a class they should of called them something else other than Advance Class which should of been Class.

 

Basic Class > Class > Spec (Should of been)

 

What defines a Class, well its a specialized skill with in a basic class. Here is a example for some of you who don't believe your Advance Class is a Class.

 

I enlisted in the United States Army as a Soldier (Class). After I complete Basic Training, I become a 31 Romeo Singal Soldier (I.E. Advance Class Training). My buddy completes Basic Training with me but decides to go 25 Bang Bang (Infantry). Both are still Soldiers but specialized in a different field. Among those fields you have sub divisions of training, like specializations (Specs).

 

Lets say I decide to change one day, I could not change with out going back to School (I.E. 11 Bang Bang Training A.I.T.) because I am not equipped with knowledge of day today training that 11 Bang Bang does without going through the proper training (I.E. Like leveling my class).

 

No matter how much you wish for Advance Class to be easy as switching and proclaiming they are the same when in reality they are not.

 

Switching Classes will only hurt the game causing FoTM rerolls and little to know diversity in game nor will they (BioWARE) focus on all eight Classes because now they have become one and mediocre. Plus I believe this hurts the new players and doesn't really give an incentive to Veteran players to reroll.

 

Its bad enough this game has taken a left turn on Min/Max but to degrade the game further with AC switching is going to kill it for me.

 

Sorry I know I am not the only one, I watch these forums like a hawk and I have defended this game from the beginning but there has to be a time when you tell the player base of whiners, NO.

Edited June 24, 2013 by Asturias

[Jeweledleah]

I have indicated that there are two of LordArtemis' comprised list of suggestions which I find to be reasonable compromises, allowing those who have unique items no longer available in game to keep those items and still change their class. Those options would be 1 and 2. Both options would revert the character back to level 10, but that character would not lose any of the unique items they had acquired.

 

however, that would mean that they have to redo the story - entire story, reacquire companions.. at which point one of the main reasons to want AC switch - not having to replay the story they already played through- is rendered moot.

 

so no, that is not a compromise, that's an insult disguised as a compromise..

 

they can already reroll. yeah, they don't get to keep some of the unique items they had on an old character, but at least that way they STILL have an old character if they want to go back to them, in addition to the new one.

 

if you say - but they can keep companions and the ship too - that's even worse. because now you are saying that they have to grind their way back to the level they were before switching AC, seeing as quests would have been completed already.

 

lets be serious here.

 

and also - when you create a character? it doesn't say "chose your story" it says "choose your class"

 

P.S. on issue of diversity. ability to switch AC will actually add diversity. because it doesn't remove any of the advanced classes or their unique trees, all it does is allow people more flexibility in which talent tree to play.

 

flash of the month? make classes/advanced classes/specs balanced and voila - no more flash of the month because there IS no flash of the month. instead of a bandaid, you actually have a cure.

 

that or limit number of times character/ account can switch AC, rendering FOTM concerns moot, since pretty soon, you are going to be locked to AC again.

Edited June 24, 2013 by Jeweledleah

[TridusSWTOR]

There is a difference between an apple and an orange, yet both are fruits.. Your point being??

 

There is a difference between a shadow and a sage, yet both are consular.. Your point again was??

 

Shadow and sage are your classes.. There are 16 classes in the game.. Not 8 classes..

 

Wrong on all accounts. try again. Come again when you want to discuss facts and not lies.

[TridusSWTOR]

I am not the troll here.. I am not the one lying about a post or claiming that someone edited a post because they aren't masture enough to just admit they missed it?? I am not childish enough to jump into a discussion that doesn't inolve me and lie about a post.. You want to see a troll?? Look at the people that fit those descriptions,.. You have to be pretty dang desperate to even accuse someone of editing a post.. I am in my 40's.. I have better things to do than to edit a post just to prove some internet wannabe wrong.. What about that really long posts where I addressed someone point by point.. Then in the very next post I was accused of not responding to their points?? Did I edit that post too?? Did I just magically make it appear out of no where to prove someone wrong?? You want to see a troll?? Go look in the mirror.. You aren't responding to anyone.. You are just a broken record saying the same thing over and over again.. If you can't support and qualify your views then you don't belong on a forum..

 

There is a large number of people that have made countless points, that the three of you have failed to respond to.. Instead resorting to lying and false accusations to do what ever you can to prove yourself right.. You will always be wrong when you use those tactics.. Seriously accusing someone of editing a post.. Now that is sad.. Desperate much??

 

I can see that the three of you are going to continue to troll this forum.. Do all you can to prevent serious discussion.. Make any attempt to insure the conversation is not productive.. You all don't want to have a serious debate.. If you did, you would read my posts and that of others.. Instead of parroting the same trash over and over again.. You would stop making childish accusations like editing a post.. Again?? What about the post where someone's points were addressed point by point.. Then I was accused of no responding to them and responding to their points?? Did I go back and edit that post because I knew I was going to be accused of not responding to their points?? If someone can miss a post of that size, (My points have not yet been responded to..) It makes sense that the smaller post was also missed.. It was not edited.. Some of us around here are adults.. Again you all need to stop trolling and grow up..

 

Let me know when you want to discuss this with the adults in an adult manner.. Otherwise keep doing what your doing..

 

When did I ever say you edit post? You seem rather defensive about it. So it must be true after all by you're own admittance.

 

In all that ranting not one part of it was addressing that DPS use accuracy now. Much less none of it was being discussed with AC changes. Which should happen.

 

So re-read what you just wrote and respond properly or accept the fact that you are a troll.

[Aries_cz]

My Juggernaut was a smash monkey. So is my Guardian. Guess what! Different AC (Juggernaut and Guardian) same playstyles.

You are talking about mirror classes. Juggernaut is exactly the dsame as Guardian. However, it plays completely different than Marauder/Sentinel. The difference for Warriors/Knights might be the least obvious, but other classes have completely different playstyles based on their Advanced Class (for example, my operative plays completely different than my sniper did)