ETA on Advanced Class change?

[PeterTLJr]

Ok, I see the above posters are trying to niggle over insults and semantics, so let's draw this back, shall we.

 

A question for those who are wanting AC changes, please explain clearly:

 

1) Why do you want it?

 

2) What practical purpose does this serve?

 

3) What limitations (if any) do you consider as reasonable?

 

4) Seeing as AC choices are currently permanent, what have been your work arounds for this?

 

I'm asking, because I'm from the point of view of they should not be implemented. If they are, they should at least carry heavy restrictions. However, in the spirit of general discussion, maybe the questions I have asked might shed some light on something I (and others) have not considered.

 

ok, gogogoggo

 

1) Because i'm unhappy with my current AC, not for end game, it just doesn't fit my play style, I was fine with it during leveling but now im just not satisfied. And I shouldnt have to sacrifice all my hard work into that character to reroll to the SAME CLASS go through the same story (which i honestly wouldnt mind if my cool mounts, titles, adaptive gear, ect) switched over.

 

2) It won't break or ruin the game. Your still the same class, just a different spec.

 

3) I'd be fine with it being a 1 time thing. Hell, I'd even recommend it being a 1 time thing so it doesn't turn into P2W.

 

4) Play the opposite thing on the other faction to see if I like the other Ac better. (i didn't fully understand that question)

[PeterTLJr]

I like how my post was ignored. Trooper is your Class Quest Class, it is not your class. The only thing Trooper does is identify you for your class story and how the galaxy sees you.

 

Vanguard is your class. Commando is your class.

 

You can't be a vanguard or a commando without being a trooper first, you can't be a retribution paladin without being a paladin first, you can't be a beastmaster in rift without being a warrior first.

[Anzel]

I will most likely quit the game if/when that happens and I am sure I am not the only one. EA will have to decide if our subs make them more or less money than giving people the option to pay to change their class.

 

I'm pretty sure they don't care one tiny little bit if you quit. They WANT you to cancel your sub. They only care about Cartel Coin purchases.

 

SOURCE: Every single update to the game since F2P

[PeterTLJr]

I'm pretty sure they don't care one tiny little bit if you quit. They WANT you to cancel your sub. They only care about Cartel Coin purchases.

 

SOURCE: Every single update to the game since F2P

 

I'm sure they care. The fact of the matter is will this feature either gain more popularity, or lose popularity, thats ultimately what it comes down too.

[LordArtemis]

I'm sure they care. The fact of the matter is will this feature either gain more popularity, or lose popularity, thats ultimately what it comes down too.

 

I would tend to agree with this. Not only do I think they care about each and every sub and player, it is obvious there is no way for any of us to know for sure if something like this would help or hurt the game.

 

I would only say that it probably should have never been permanent in the first place...another developer blunder among a litany of blunders in original design. I'm not sure that it is a mistake that can be corrected at this point without negative impact to the game in some ways however.

 

I guess we will see if it ever comes to pass.

[Jeweledleah]

The issue isn't that changing AC would make terrible players.

 

From my perspective, changing AC opens the door to these things:

 

1. It would potentially increase gear drop QQ as players would be needing for "opposite AC"

2. It would reduce the time people would spend leveling characters, potentially leading people to unsub quicker.

3. It would potentially exacerbate the FOTM situation whenever BW makes a mistake in PvP class balance.

 

The idea that "you leveled as a Sage and would have no idea how to Shadow Tank" is a silly argument to me. Leveling as a Commando dps I had no idea how to heal. Going from Commando dps to Commando heals is about the same level of difficulty as going from Commando dps to Vanguard tank.

 

people are already needing for companions and alts and off specs.

 

however - even some of it can be easily solved by limiting the number of times you can change your AC.

 

personally, I favor twice - once to another AC, and once to change back if your new AC is not more fun as you thought it may have been.

 

and the thing is - I DID reroll my character. I got the same face, even the same name with one letter difference. I managed to eventually get almost the same orange shells for her to wear. close enough anyways. I leveled her up. its NOT hard to level in this game, folks. but I would have preferred if I could keep my original character with her no longer available toys.

 

heck - limit it to lvl 46 and under (which is when you get your top keystone ability so at that point you definitely have a good idea how your AC plays and whether you will enjoy the gameplay).

 

I'm just... amused I guess by the "the game will die, if its allowed in any shape or form" folks.

 

there are a lot of permanent choices we have to make in real life and you cannot just go back and change them. though nowadays, you CAN remove tattoos and such.

 

however - this is a game, entertainment and there are a lot of extremely unrealistic things here already? so why deny people second chances? not a lot of places outside of games you could get those.

[PeterTLJr]

people are already needing for companions and alts and off specs.

 

however - even some of it can be easily solved by limiting the number of times you can change your AC.

 

personally, I favor twice - once to another AC, and once to change back if your new AC is not more fun as you thought it may have been.

 

and the thing is - I DID reroll my character. I got the same face, even the same name with one letter difference. I managed to eventually get almost the same orange shells for her to wear. close enough anyways. I leveled her up. its NOT hard to level in this game, folks. but I would have preferred if I could keep my original character with her no longer available toys.

 

heck - limit it to lvl 46 and under (which is when you get your top keystone ability so at that point you definitely have a good idea how your AC plays and whether you will enjoy the gameplay).

 

I'm just... amused I guess by the "the game will die, if its allowed in any shape or form" folks.

 

there are a lot of permanent choices we have to make in real life and you cannot just go back and change them. though nowadays, you CAN remove tattoos and such.

 

however - this is a game, entertainment and there are a lot of extremely unrealistic things here already? so why deny people second chances? not a lot of places outside of games you could get those.

 

I 100% agree with this post. And the people that are for this feature, arent saying "hey lets allow people to switch to any class you want" were simply stating that you should be allow to switch to the other AC that is inside your base class.

[Ratajack]

Fair on both points.

 

 

 

As long as you are willing to concede two things....

 

1) Many things that they refused to change, indicated it was contrary to design intent or said would NEVER change (like character appearance change after creation and cross class armor appearance) have, in fact, changed.

 

2) There are more than a few that do see reasons for the devs to change this and they are not necessarily unreasonable in their contentions, though you still oppose the idea for stated reasons.

 

I will gladly concede that the devs have changed many of the things they said would not be changed if you will concede that those changes have been largely, if not solely, cosmetic and have no affect on fundamental mechanics.

 

I will also concede that more than a few people see reasons for the devs to allow class changes if you will concede that as many people do not see any reason to allow class changes and that their contentions are reasonable.

[Ratajack]

I 100% agree with this post. And the people that are for this feature, arent saying "hey lets allow people to switch to any class you want" were simply stating that you should be allow to switch to the other AC that is inside your base class.

 

It is still a class change, so if they are going to allow you to change your class, why not go all the way and allow you to change from a vanguard to a juggernaut?

 

Before you try saying that it is not a class change, I will refer you again to a quote from the devs:

 

 

Hey folks,

 

Please be sure to read the Community Blog section, where weekly Q&As are posted. The one from February 10th answers this question:

 

 

Quote:

Aurozia: Will there be a dual specialization system in the future? Will there be a possibility of changing advance classes as well?

 

Daniel Erickson: We have no plans for switching advanced classes - which we see as fundamentally different class designs- but dual spec is in the works and coming soon.

 

 

 

You may find the full Q&A here and the discussion thread here. Check back on Friday to see what questions were selected this week!

 

Please also remember that our Developer Tracker is a great way to find out what the developers are posting!

 

To the best of my knowledge, the devs have never wavered on this stance regarding different AC's being different classes.

 

So, unless you feel that you know more than the devs, a vanguard and commando are DIFFERENT classes.

[PeterTLJr]

It is still a class change, so if they are going to allow you to change your class, why not go all the way and allow you to change from a vanguard to a juggernaut?

 

Before you try saying that it is not a class change, I will refer you again to a quote from the devs:

 

 

 

 

To the best of my knowledge, the devs have never wavered on this stance regarding different AC's being different classes.

 

So, unless you feel that you know more than the devs, a vanguard and commando are DIFFERENT classes.

 

I'm not going to listen to a post over a year ago, it wouldnt be the first time the devs said something and ended up doing it anyways.

[Ratajack]

I'm not going to listen to a post over a year ago, it wouldnt be the first time the devs said something and ended up doing it anyways.

 

Your attempt to sidestep the question I posed has been noted.

 

The devs have stated that different AC's are different classes. You therefore are asking for the devs to allow you to change your class. If they are going to allow you to change your class from a vanguard to a commando, why not go all the way and allow a change of class from a vanguard to a juggernaut? Changing from a vanguard to a commando is no less a class change than changing from vanguard to juggernaut, after all.

[Icebergy]

No it's not.

 

Your turn.

 

Alright lets try this another way.

 

Perhaps YOU would not use it as pay to win, but surely you can see how some players might abuse it as a form of paying to win?

[PeterTLJr]

Your attempt to sidestep the question I posed has been noted.

 

The devs have stated that different AC's are different classes. You therefore are asking for the devs to allow you to change your class. If they are going to allow you to change your class from a vanguard to a commando, why not go all the way and allow a change of class from a vanguard to a juggernaut? Changing from a vanguard to a commando is no less a class change than changing from vanguard to juggernaut, after all.

 

I didn't sidestep your question, do I really need to go over this again? vanguard and commandos are the trooper and trooper is the class.

Edited June 11, 2013 by PeterTLJr

[Icebergy]

I didn't sidestep your question, do I really need to go over this again? vanguard and commandos are the trooper and trooper is the class.

 

How can you say that switching from vanguard to commando is no different then switching to a juggernaut from vanguard?

 

Yes you totally did sidestep his question. Vanguard and Commando are the classes. Trooper is the archetype. He is saying that because it is true.

Edited June 11, 2013 by Icebergy

[Khevar]

1. It would potentially increase gear drop QQ as players would be needing for "opposite AC"

...

I dont agree with the first point. That problem exists now and I don't think allowing AC change would increase or decrease it.

....

people are already needing for companions and alts and off specs.

...

Let me first say that I am fully aware that this is my own opinion, I'm not trying to pass this off as absolute truth. But in my opinion, the gear drop QQ will absolutely get worse if someone could justify it with "it's for my opposite AC"

 

Is this enough to torpedo the AC switch? Dunno.

 

But the subject of loot rules, manners and courtesy happens to be one that is very important to me. There have been a number of threads on this subject, and I often times find myself posting on it, trying to make (hopefully) good arguments in favor of the fact that Need is for your current toon's main spec, and Greed is for everything else (especially companions).

 

Having been involved in so many of those discussions, and seeing the heavy reactions to such a hot button as "fair loot", I am 100% convinced, that opening the door to Need for opposite spec can only exacerbate the existing situation. In other words, it won't stay the same, it will get worse.

 

If the devs actually do implement AC spec swapping, my prediction is this:

 

1. We will see an increase in complaint threads about loot rules, and will see mention "needing for opposite AC"

and

2. Ratajack and I will get into a polite argument on those threads () and some variation of "Y'all asked for it" will appear in one of his responses.

 

Again, I'm not saying this is the most important issue. But I am saying that it is a valid point that belongs in the "Con" column for AC respec.

[PeterTLJr]

Yes you totally did sidestep his question. Vanguard and Commando are the classes. Trooper is the archetype. He is saying that because it is true.

 

http://www.swtor.com/holonet/classes

 

I believe they are called classes, not archetype. I can play this card everytime.

[Ratajack]

I didn't sidestep your question, do I really need to go over this again? vanguard and commandos are the trooper and trooper is the class.

 

How can you say that switching from vanguard to commando is no different then switching to a juggernaut from vanguard?

 

Let's try this again. Maybe try reading the bolded part this time.

 

Hey folks,

 

Please be sure to read the Community Blog section, where weekly Q&As are posted. The one from February 10th answers this question:

 

 

Quote:

Aurozia: Will there be a dual specialization system in the future? Will there be a possibility of changing advance classes as well?

 

Daniel Erickson: We have no plans for switching advanced classes - which we see as fundamentally different class designs- but dual spec is in the works and coming soon.

 

 

 

You may find the full Q&A here and the discussion thread here. Check back on Friday to see what questions were selected this week!

 

Please also remember that our Developer Tracker is a great way to find out what the developers are posting!

 

 

Just in case you missed it, he said "advanced classes - which we see as fundamentally different class designs". There you have it, right from the devs. AC's are different classes, so that means that a vanguard and a commando are DIFFERENT classes. Do you feel that you know better than the devs?

[Icebergy]

http://www.swtor.com/holonet/classes

 

I believe they are called classes, not archetype. I can play this card everytime.

 

And we can link you the dev quote every time. When you hit level 10 and select your advanced class, that becomes your class. Just because you don't like it, doesn't mean it isn't true.

[PeterTLJr]

Let's try this again. Maybe try reading the bolded part this time.

 

 

 

 

Just in case you missed it, he said "advanced classes - which we see as fundamentally different class designs". There you have it, right from the devs. AC's are different classes, so that means that a vanguard and a commando are DIFFERENT classes. Do you feel that you know better than the devs?

 

No, to answer your question. But this is also from over a year ago, that being said they have done things even though they said they wouldnt in the past. If they wanted it to truly be different classes they should do a better job portraying it.

[spectreclees]

You can't be a vanguard or a commando without being a trooper first, you can't be a retribution paladin without being a paladin first, you can't be a beastmaster in rift without being a warrior first.

That is entirely different how is that so hard for you to understand? Did you even read my post?

 

The trooper is your class story class, nothing more. The first 10 levels are there for you to explore your starter planet and get a feel for the game. After that you pick your class.

 

Stop spewing this crap from other games. Those have different designs to class than this game. Both do not have storytelling like this game does.

 

I played both. I chose paladin at the select screen because that's what I wanted to play and I knew it had 3 trees that allowed me to play every role. I chose Jedi Knight because I saw I had two choices later on: To play a Guardian Tank/Dps or a Pure DPS Sentinel. When I got to 10 and was able to choose I knew it was permanent because it SAID SO.

Edited June 11, 2013 by spectreclees

[Icebergy]

If they wanted it to truly be different classes they should do a better job portraying it.

 

How? Sit here with a straight face and tell me that you think Guardians and Sentinels are the same, they don't even use the same armor class.

 

Better yet, Gunslingers and Scoundrels, do they play the same way to you?

 

Even better yet, Sages and Shadows.

 

I'll wait.

Edited June 11, 2013 by Icebergy

[PeterTLJr]

And we can link you the dev quote every time. When you hit level 10 and select your advanced class, that becomes your class. Just because you don't like it, doesn't mean it isn't true.

 

If I can get a solid answer out of this, i'll be out the door.

 

What is different between each AC for each class? Obviously different sub stats (crit, defense rating, alacrity, ect) and skill trees, but aside from that, what makes a vanguard so much different then a commando? Do we not both use aim? Do we not both go through the same story? Don't we make the same choices? Do we not go to same trainer? Do we not go to the same vendors? Are our companions different? Were we both not once troopers?

 

Same goes for each class.

Edited June 11, 2013 by PeterTLJr

[Khevar]

If I can get a solid answer out of this, i'll be out the door.

 

What is different between each AC for each class? Obviously different sub stats (crit, defense rating, alacrity, ect) and skill trees, but aside from that, what makes a vanguard so much different then a commando? Do we not both use aim? Do we not both go through the same story? Don't we make the same choices? Do we not go to same trainer? Do we not go to the same vendors? Are our companions different? Were we both not once troopers?

Melee vs Ranged

 

Edit: Vanguard plays in the 4-10m range, Commando at the <30m range.

Edited June 11, 2013 by Khevar

[Icebergy]

If I can get a solid answer out of this, i'll be out the door.

 

What is different between each AC for each class? Obviously different sub stats (crit, defense rating, alacrity, ect) and skill trees, but aside from that, what makes a vanguard so much different then a commando? Do we not both use aim? Do we not both go through the same story? Don't we make the same choices? Do we not go to same trainer? Do we not go to the same vendors? Are our companions different? Were we both not once troopers?

 

Same goes for each class.

How? Sit here with a straight face and tell me that you think Guardians and Sentinels are the same, they don't even use the same armor class.

 

Better yet, Gunslingers and Scoundrels, do they play the same way to you?

 

Even better yet, Sages and Shadows.

 

I'll wait.

 

The door is waiting.

 

In EVERY OTHER GAME every class has the same story, and they don't even have any choices for you to make. Some games make every class go to the same trainer and same vendor too.

Edited June 11, 2013 by Icebergy

[Ratajack]

 

If the devs actually do implement AC spec swapping, my prediction is this:

 

1. We will see an increase in complaint threads about loot rules, and will see mention "needing for opposite AC"

and

2. Ratajack and I will get into a polite argument on those threads () and some variation of "Y'all asked for it" will appear in one of his responses.

 

 

1. I believe you are correct.

 

2. Even though you and I may not see eye to eye on many topics, I respect your opinions and the manner in which you state them. I will not promise not to say "I told you so", though.