ETA on Advanced Class change?

[Jeweledleah]

Right now if you wanted to experience the abilities and play styles of every class in SWTOR, you need a *minimum* of 8 characters. In other words, one for each AC. For particularly devoted players who also want to experience every storyline along with every AC (despite the Imp/Pub ability mirrors), that number grows to 16. It may not be difficult to grind a new character to level 55 but at least it will still keep the players busy for a while, especially those who do not spend 40 hours per week in game. Now if BW allowed for AC respec/change then that number would get cut in half or in other words:

 

"Durr, I have 4 max level toons and I have experienced every class SWTOR has to offer, durr."

 

Which MMO do you know of allows for that? I can't think of a single MMO where having 4 characters would translate into having played every single class in the game. Frankly, BW/EA may as well put their business plan into the shredder and be done with it if they were foolish enough to implement this.

 

ESO. there are a total of 4 classes. and 3 faction stories that you only need one character to play through anyways. and since half your skills are weapon based and every class can use every weapon/armor in a game and play every role?

 

you know, since you said you didn't know a single game... here's one off the top of my head

 

and you'd still need to have 8 characters to experience every class SWTOR has to offer. 4 impside and 4 pubside. becasue its not just about mechanics, its also about the story. you know, that cornerstone and selling point of SWTOR?

 

last but not least. some people like to keep busy by leveling characters. some people like to keep busy by playing at max level. restricting AC doesn't encourage people to keep more busy, becasue if they wanted multiple characters in the same class - they would and already do so, with or without AC change (and then there's me with my multiple operatives and a scoundrel for a good measure >_> ) people who only play through the story once, who only enjoy playing through the story once? (yes they exist) more often than not just abandon characters instead of rerolling.

 

allowing people to change their AC will not magically shrink the content in half. it will just give people with less time - more options.

Edited April 21, 2014 by Jeweledleah

[Reno_Tarshil]

If it was fully swappable at any time, I could dig it. Would certainly cut down on character space and allow me new rp ideas.

[Sendrel]

Right now if you wanted to experience the abilities and play styles of every class in SWTOR, you need a *minimum* of 8 characters. In other words, one for each AC. For particularly devoted players who also want to experience every storyline along with every AC (despite the Imp/Pub ability mirrors), that number grows to 16. It may not be difficult to grind a new character to level 55 but at least it will still keep the players busy for a while, especially those who do not spend 40 hours per week in game. Now if BW allowed for AC respec/change then that number would get cut in half or in other words.

 

So the argument is that it has replay value. That's not a bad argument, but I think you over-estimate people's willingness to grind that content repeatedly. And I think you over-estimate how many people really want to see the story content with the only differentiator being an alternate AC. The class story itself doesn't change, just the playstyle. People make alts for a huge variety of reasons, I just don't think you cut out half of the alt-making population by allowing AC respecs. I'd guess you wouldn't reduce the amount of alts at all really. I can only speak for myself, but if AC respecs were allowed tomorrow, I'd still create and play all the alts that I have planned currently.

 

So yeah, respectfully disagree.

 

Which MMO do you know of allows for that? I can't think of a single MMO where having 4 characters would translate into having played every single class in the game. Frankly, BW/EA may as well put their business plan into the shredder and be done with it if they were foolish enough to implement this.

 

Rift.

 

Rift had probably the most flexible class structure of any modern MMO. And it worked pretty well.

[TUXs]

If it was fully swappable at any time, I could dig it. Would certainly cut down on character space and allow me new rp ideas.

 

I wouldn't even use it, but I certainly support it. Who cares what AC someone else wants to play? I want Reno to be a happy player, no matter what AC you are. It's stupid NOT to allow it.

[Icebergy]

I wouldn't even use it, but I certainly support it. Who cares what AC someone else wants to play? I want Reno to be a happy player, no matter what AC you are. It's stupid NOT to allow it.

 

It's stupid TO allow it.

[TUXs]

It's stupid TO allow it.

Why? What possible harm can come to this game by allowing players to play an AC they like once they reach end game? What's stupid about it?

[Deewe]

Not sure adding more into this topic that have been debated even in beta to death will change anything still for the people here.

 

• Only a minority of players might rage quit because Advanced AC Respec (AARC) are added in game. Then if it's the only reason, they might, no pun intended, be better off somewhere else.
  
• AACR will give players more choices.
  
• It will also make players buy second sets of gear, be it in CC and from crafters.
  
• I might bring back some players. (A friend of mine left mostly because of this, reason #2 for him)
  
• After trying out a different AC, a player liking it might find himself wanting to create a new toon to enjoy the levelling process either in the same class or the opposite faction.
  
• Nobody forces anyone to respect to any AC
  

 

Wow has it, Rift has it and well it did not kill their game.

Edited April 21, 2014 by Deewe

[Anzel]

While we're at it... subscribers should be allowed to sprint at Level 1 instead of level 15 or 16.

[Oneirophrenia]

That's not a bad argument, but I think you over-estimate people's willingness to grind that content repeatedly.

 

Not an over-estimation at all considering player now-a-days can also PVP or Kuat their way to 55 in addition to the traditional method of class/planet quests and SM FPs. Grinding the content with various characters/alts is a staple of any MMO and players have come to expect it, regardless of their own personal tolerance levels. In my opinion, with leveling as easy as it is right now, only having to grind through 4 characters in order to experience a large chunk of the game is simply insufficient and unhealthy for the long term viability of SWTOR.

 

Rift.

 

Rift had probably the most flexible class structure of any modern MMO. And it worked pretty well.

 

Eh, the Rift system is not really comparable to SWTOR's. From what I understand Rift has 4 base classes also but each of them has what, 8 various skill trees or souls to choose from (up to 3 max)? That's a lot of unique and potentially viable combinations. SWTOR on the other hand has only 3 skill trees for each AC and if you split your points evenly between all 3, the resulting character will be rather... worthless. Of course there are some solid hybrid Mara/Sent or Sniper/Gunslinger builds but they still remain in the dps role instead of crossing over into healing or tanking. Perhaps Sorcerer/Consular is the lone exception to this rule as some PVP builds are dps/healing tree hybrids but at the same time, such builds aren't really ideal for the PVE side.

 

The only way SWTOR would be comparable to the Rift system would be to eliminate ACs all together (rendering this debate moot) so we can build dotsmash Warriors/Knights with some tanking abilities or Agents/Smugglers that can stealth, ambush/cull and drop Kolto probes at the same time. Such a system could have worked in all honesty but that ship has sailed long ago. I doubt BW/EA would be willing to make such a foundational alteration to the game considering it's been more than 2 years after launch.

Edited April 21, 2014 by Oneirophrenia

[Icebergy]

Why? What possible harm can come to this game by allowing players to play an AC they like once they reach end game? What's stupid about it?

 

The thread is full of reasons. But you and people who support the idea will just dismiss them out of hand anyways so its pointless to go back over them again.

[Icebergy]

 

Wow has it, Rift has it and well it did not kill their game.

 

WoW does not have class change.

[Reno_Tarshil]

While we're at it... subscribers should be allowed to sprint at Level 1 instead of level 15 or 16.

 

Uhm..

 

Subscribers already can sprint at 1?

[TUXs]

The thread is full of reasons. But you and people who support the idea will just dismiss them out of hand anyways so its pointless to go back over them again.

List em. List the good reasons. List the reasons that would make me support no AC swapping...because I'm not arguing for it just to argue, I firmly believe it would be in the best interest of the game. If you also sincerely think it would be BAD for the game, surely you can list the reasons why right?

[TUXs]

WoW does not have class change.

 

Isn't WoW the game that sells instant max level characters?

[RWScissors]

Isn't WoW the game that sells instant max level characters?

 

Yeah, with gear ready to raid... well, LFR ready anyway.

[Sendrel]

Not an over-estimation at all considering player now-a-days can also PVP or Kuat their way to 55 in addition to the traditional method of class/planet quests and SM FPs. Grinding the content with various characters/alts is a staple of any MMO and players have come to expect it, regardless of their own personal tolerance levels. In my opinion, with leveling as easy as it is right now, only having to grind through 4 characters in order to experience a large chunk of the game is flat out insufficient and unhealthy for the long term viability of SWTOR.

 

Just so I understand and don't strawman you, you're saying that its easier to xp your way to 55 via PVP or Tactical FP grinding, so we need to make sure to force people to grind more? I get that MMO's are traditionally all about the treadmill. I just disagree that people will be turned off faster by providing a feature that allows for more customizability. If anything, they'll be forced to grind more end game gear to satisfy multiple specs. Which is all AC swapping really boils down to. The ability to swap roles. In that sense, I would be arguing in the other direction from you - that the lack of options with regard to swapping roles is insufficient and therefore unhealthy for the long term viability of swotor.

 

Eh, the Rift system is not really comparable to SWTOR's. From what I understand Rift has 4 base classes also but each of them has what, 8 various skill trees or souls to choose from (up to 3 max)? That's a lot of unique and potentially viable combinations. SWTOR on the other hand has only 3 skill trees for each AC and if you split your points evenly between all 3, the resulting character will be rather... worthless. Of course there are still viable hybrid Marauder/Sent or Sniper/Gunslinger buildsbut they still remain in the dps role instead of crossing over into healing or tanking. Perhaps Sorcerers/Consulars is the lone exception to this rule as some PVP builds are dps/healing tree hybrids but at the same time, such builds aren't really viable for the PVE side.

 

The only way SWTOR would be comparable to the Rift system would be to eliminate ACs all together (rendering this debate moot) so we can build dotsmash Warriors/Knights with some tanking abilities or Agents/Smugglers that can stealth, ambush/cull and drop Kolto probes at the same time. Such a system could have worked in all honesty but that ship has sailed long ago. I doubt BW/EA would be willing to make such a foundational alteration to the game considering it's been more than 2 years after launch.

 

Its directly comparable in the sense that all AC swapping really amounts to is role switching. The ability to switch between dps, heal, and tank roles. That's exactly what Rift allowed and it would work just as well here as it worked there.

[arunav]

Everyone has time to level that new class. There is no time limit on reaching max level. Its not as if that character will be deleted if it does not reach max level within 2 weeks. It requires even less time now to reach max level with the double XP weekends and the XP boosts you can as quest rewards. Many people are too averse to the modicum of effort required to actually level that new class, though.

 

Putting a limit of two times on class changes would solve nothing. We already have a limit on the number of times you can change your class. That number is zero. Here you are, though, in a 430+ page thread asking that the limit be raised, while many people are asking that it be removed entirely. If they set a limit of 2 times, then the complaints would be "you let me do it twice, why not three times", etc.

 

Let's not give that mouse a cookie.

 

A modicum of effort? It takes me roughly 2 months or more to reach 55 from scratch, and that's if I played most nights in a week, which I don't care to do. Personally, I don't like the double-xp events because you end up skipping so many of the story quests, which to me are the best part of the game, even after playing it for over 2 years.

 

I've leveled 1 of each class to experience all the stories - that took me from January 2012 until March 2014, though I didn't level a character at all times, spending some focused at endgame. Of those 8 55s, I have one of each AC-type, to allow for experiencing each play-style in the game.

 

Now, I don't enjoy one of them in particular, Vanguard/Powertech. I'd like to switch, and it will have no effect on if I continue to sub and play the game or not - in fact, I would actually play my Vanguard if I could switch him to a Commando. It would have little effect on my ability to play the class, as I'd obviously want to learn how to play gunnery well before joining an Ops group. FPs are more forgiving. And once you've learned to play other ranged DPS classes, it's not that hard to pick up how to play another.

 

Additionally: there is a consequence of not allowing for AC change - armors that are removed from either PVE or PVP. If you have older characters and would rather play the other AC, there is no way to attain the same look you like on your character.

 

My trooper looks great - he just has the wrong AC. I would like to pay some coins to switch him to a Commando.

 

BW can set policy on limits for changing. I think 2 makes sense for a given character, since it allows for making a change, then switching back if you think you made a mistake.

 

The sub-base of this game is relatively stable as far as I can tell on my server, and I would bet most have a lot of alts at high or max level (50-55), especially the folks that spend the most on the Cartel Market. Allowing players to switch AC at max or near-max level, at least for me, promotes staying with the game longer, and spending more money in it.

Edited April 21, 2014 by arunav

[Deewe]

WoW does not have class change.

Yes but the druid is has a built-in multiple class choices and dual builds allow players to switch from tank to DPS or heal in a few secs, Gear, UI, and talent trees included.

[Oneirophrenia]

Just so I understand and don't strawman you, you're saying that its easier to xp your way to 55 via PVP or Tactical FP grinding, so we need to make sure to force people to grind more?

 

Sort of. What I'm saying is that the leveling grind in SWTOR is relatively mild given that the game provide us with several exp gaining options combined with a fairly generous gain rate. And that's not even including the various double exp weekends. As such, players need to be given more reasons to level multiple characters, not fewer, in order to sustain this game for the long run. For example, if AC respec is allowed, I can easily get 4 characters (one for each basic class) to level 55 within 4 months and spend another 5-6 months to get them full 78/180 comm gear. After that is done, what reason is there for me to level another character when I have already experienced all 8 ACs? Make 2 more characters so I can have all of the crafting skills? Well, I don't even need to get them 55 for that. Level 30 with 3 companions is more than sufficient for crafting mules.

 

I get that MMO's are traditionally all about the treadmill. I just disagree that people will be turned off faster by providing a feature that allows for more customizability. If anything, they'll be forced to grind more end game gear to satisfy multiple specs. Which is all AC swapping really boils down to. The ability to swap roles. In that sense, I would be arguing in the other direction from you - that the lack of options with regard to swapping roles is insufficient and therefore unhealthy for the long term viability of swotor.

 

The grind for end game gear remains the same whether it is 1 character with 2 different roles or 2 characters each with a single role. You still need about 2500 ulti comms to get full sets of 78/180 tank/dps gear, more if you wish to min/max properly. For healing/dps gear the cost is a bit less due to slot overlaps but 1200-1500 comms isn't out of the question. If anything, getting end game gear with 2 characters is actually easier when you factor in the current weekly operation lockouts but I digress.

 

As for your role swapping argument, all ACs with the exception of Mara/Sent and Sniper/Gunslinger can already do that whether it is respeccing from tank to dps or dps to healer. I gather you don't believe that this moderate amount of role flexibility is enough?

 

Its directly comparable in the sense that all AC swapping really amounts to is role switching. The ability to switch between dps, heal, and tank roles. That's exactly what Rift allowed and it would work just as well here as it worked there.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong but everything I have read regarding Rift class system basically boils down to encouraging players to experiment with hybrid characters. For example, a rogue that has a primary tanking soul but also a secondary healing soul. The SWTOR equivalent of that would be a Sin/Shadow tank with some Sorc/Consular healing abilities thrown in. That would be an apples to apples comparison and also simply not going to happen in this game regardless of the inclusion of AC respec.

Edited April 22, 2014 by Oneirophrenia

[ryniloym]

The fact that they are ignoring this thread pleases me.

[Lagboot]

Roll a new toon already!!

 

We do not need Advanced Class change.

Edited April 22, 2014 by Lagboot

[Duskrequim]

the only argument against the idea seems to be just personal opinions with no real evidence to persuade me to think that it will negatively affect the game. For all we know giving people this option would eliminate some of the players playing classes badly because they could swap to different AC and be good at it.

 

Alot of people focus on 1 character per side.. and feel it would take too much time to level a whole new class so they stick with the class. Even if they are bad at them. Opening up this would allow for players to test out the classes and possible find something that they enjoy. It will not somehow destroy the game.

[ZahirS]

Roll a new toon already!!

 

We do not need Advanced Class change.

 

lol

 

No. Advanced Class Respec for everyone

Edited April 22, 2014 by ZahirS

[Sendrel]

Sort of. What I'm saying is that the leveling grind in SWTOR is relatively mild given that the game provide us with several exp gaining options combined with a fairly generous gain rate. And that's not even including the various double exp weekends. As such, players need to be given more reasons to level multiple characters, not fewer, in order to sustain this game for the long run. For example, if AC respec is allowed, I can easily get 4 characters (one for each basic class) to level 55 within 4 months and spend another 5-6 months to get them full 78/180 comm gear. After that is done, what reason is there for me to level another character when I have already experienced all 8 ACs? Make 2 more characters so I can have all of the crafting skills? Well, I don't even need to get them 55 for that. Level 30 with 3 companions is more than sufficient for crafting mules.

 

And what I'm saying is that people will level whatever number of characters they feel comfortable leveling. Trying to force them to level more is just an exercise in frustration for everyone involved. The reason to level more characters is because you like to play more characters and don't like to focus on one at a time, or you like a particular story line and want to experience it again. Not because you're tied to an archaic and inflexible spec system. You asked what reason is there to level more characters after reaching endgame with AC swapping? There are literally a metric truckload or reasons to level more characters. None of which is very convenient for your argument.

 

In short, I really doubt you're going to keep more people than you'll lose by not introducing AC swapping.

 

As for your role swapping argument, all ACs with the exception of Mara/Sent and Sniper/Gunslinger can already do that whether it is respeccing from tank to dps or dps to healer. I gather you don't believe that this moderate amount of role flexibility is enough?

 

Nope, I don't. The gist of my argument boils down to allowing more choice. It just seems like restriction for restriction's sake. If you admit that swapping from heals to dps isn't a big deal, why not go all the way? Who gets hurt? And how much money does BW/EA stand to make in the Cartel Market?

 

Correct me if I'm wrong but everything I have read regarding Rift class system basically boils down to encouraging players to experiment with hybrid characters. For example, a rogue that has a primary tanking soul but also a secondary healing soul. The SWTOR equivalent of that would be a Sin/Shadow tank with some Sorc/Consular healing abilities thrown in. That would be an apples to apples comparison and also simply not going to happen in this game regardless of the inclusion of AC respec.

 

Well its a good thing that no one is asking for that then!

 

Seriously, no one is asking for BW to go all in and allow full hybridization. You're right, the game isn't balanced for that. Which is why I tried to get you to focus on roles instead. Because that's where the comparison works.

[Ratajack]

Did Wow lose subs when Wow started to allow respecs? When it made respecs painless? When it added dual spec? (Answer: no - and since they added those things everyone has expected them and taken them for granted in all similar games including this one). The only distinction here is that some absolutist and grind-happy nuts can't wrap their heads around the idea that skill tree resets in other games are functionally the same if not identical to AC respecs here.

 

i can't think of any game that lost subs immediately after giving characters more flexibility with committed leveling decisions (and every single one that i played for any length of time did just that).

 

i can almost guarantee that a reasonably priced CM AC respec will only make BW money: short term and long term.

 

Does a rogue that respecs from combat to assassination lose his ability to stealth? NO.

 

Does a priest that respecs from holy to shadow suddenly become a melee class? NO.

 

Does a hunter that respecs from marksmanship to beast master suddenly learn to stealth and become a melee class? NO.

 

In the eyes of the devs, changing AC is changing class, not spec.